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Winwaloe
-22nd November 2004, 09:03
Would be very interested to hear views on what constitutes a mal-parry at sabre. Qualified/experienced sabre refs, very keen to hear your thoughts -

Saxon
-22nd November 2004, 09:24
(from a non-qualified and medium-experience-but-possibly-dubious-ability referee)

Attack - touche! Simple as that.

Light comes up as the hit lands, implying the defensive action wasn't enough to prevent the contact.

If the attacking light is not on with the first action, the action was parried, and the hit's a remise instead. Of course, depending who makes your box and how quick the riposte is, you might get the hit anyway.

:rolleyes:

jadedguru
-22nd November 2004, 09:45
What I keep getting drummed into me is ther is no mal parry. Does not stop it getting called though.

As Saxon said Attack - touche!

If a fencer attepts to parry and the attacking blade contacts with the defending blade in a parry position but also makes contact with target then it is "a hit through the blade" there is no parry.

If on the other hand the defending action interupts the attack so that the attacker has to push through the parry or hit in a different line, then as long as the defender riposts before the box times out (110 to 130ms) or before a complete fencing action interupts their timing they have a riposte.

Hope this helps.

PoohBear
-22nd November 2004, 09:49
Originally posted by Saxon
Light comes up as the hit lands, implying the defensive action wasn't enough to prevent the contact.
Totaly agree. For a regular parry, if the light comes up immediatly it's a mal-parry.

One other situation which should be mentioned is when a defender is attempting a "beat-parry" on the opponent's attack. If the beat is into the forte (i.e. bottom third of the blade) then it actually should be considered the attacker's parry giving him the right to an immediate ripost.

jadedguru
-22nd November 2004, 09:59
Ok,

The rules are as follows, look at part C for explination.

t.70 The sabre is a weapon for thrusting and cutting with both the cutting edge and the back of the blade.

(a) All hits made with the cutting edge, the flat or the back of the blade are counted as good (cuts and back-cuts).

It is forbidden to hit with the guard. Any hits caused by hitting with the guard must be annulled, the fencer so hitting being penalised as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120.

(b) Point hits which slip over the valid target, or cuts which merely brush the opponent’s target (passé hits) do not count.

(c) Hits through the blade, that is to say those which touch at the same time the valid target and the sabre of the opponent, are valid whenever they arrive clearly on the target.

(d) Placing the point of the weapon on the piste at any time to straighten it is forbidden. Any breaking of this rule will be punished according to Articles t.114, t.116, t.120.

http://fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3522

randomsabreur
-22nd November 2004, 10:29
Mal parry is more of a way of diffusing arguments and preventing strops by telling the fencer who attempted to parry that you did see their parry, (i.e. you are not totally blind), but that in your opinion it failed.

Eg would be where the parry was too late, or if you have not managed to get your blade above the level of your head. On the new timings, chances are you have one light against anyway if the attack was properly mal parried

Winwaloe
-22nd November 2004, 12:06
Any one think that sabre will go the way of foil where, virtually, any defensive action on the attacking blade is considered a parry and the riposte given? Many foil parries resemble a coule; will this concept ever follow through to sabre do you think?

telkanuru
-22nd November 2004, 12:39
A parry in sabre is a binary thing, ie. either you did it, or you didn't. A m-p is like saying 'nice try, but no'. It should never be included in a ref's recounting of the phrase, just like 'parry with distance', which is more commonly known as 'attack is no'.

Winwaloe
-23rd November 2004, 13:51
Originally posted by randomsabreur
Mal parry is more of a way of diffusing arguments and preventing strops by telling the fencer who attempted to parry that you did see their parry, (i.e. you are not totally blind), but that in your opinion it failed.

Eg would be where the parry was too late, or if you have not managed to get your blade above the level of your head. On the new timings, chances are you have one light against anyway if the attack was properly mal parried

That is a really great and very accurate answer!

randomsabreur
-23rd November 2004, 15:06
Thanks!!!

furia
-10th December 2004, 17:01
There is another angle here:

t.79
When the parry is properly executed, the attack by the opponent must be declared parried... even if as a result of flexibility, the tip of the opponents's weapon makes contact with the target.

So, the attack goes through but it is parried!

gbm
-10th December 2004, 17:44
Whipover protection on the box is designed to address this.

jadedguru
-10th December 2004, 17:58
designed?

frequenlty seem so not work!

I also have experienced this design blocking out valid hits that are too brief. e.g. bouncing off mask. and hits when one has sucessfully taken the opponets blade and hit him. e.g. in a bind or coule.

FoilyDeath
-11th December 2004, 09:39
A mal-parry is simply a bad parry. If you try to make a last moment, and block their forte with your foible...well, its a mal parry. And if you do get a good forte to foible parry, but it simply scrapes of the blade without and it goes through, mal parry