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Ice'Cold
-18th December 2004, 04:45
I was looking to start buying my own gear online and I need some help defining some terms.

Carbon fibre- as far as I can tell its some kind of grip.

I also would like so help distinguishing the names of different kind of pistol grips. As far as I have seen, there are more curved silver grips, longer straight flat black ones, and the ones I am partial to are straight but have a flat round peice which goes into the palm. I have heard of them reffered to as 'z' grips but Im not very sure. The one I own has a 'K' on it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ulrika
-18th December 2004, 07:39
If you have a look here (https://www.allstar.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PostTep&file=index&action=default.php&cPath=25_2515_251505) you'll find a wide selection of different grips.

The ones you are talking about that has like a round, flat piece in your palm is most likely a Zivkovic grip. (They look really interesting to me but unfortunatley I haven't had the oppurtunity to try any of them.)

foilerist
-18th December 2004, 10:16
carbon fibre is a very light material. Leon Paul use it to make the extra light epee grip based on a french grip but with no weighted pommel, which would kinda defeat the whole extra light thing.

Ice'Cold
-20th December 2004, 14:37
Those attached grips show up on my computer extra small, so I cant really tell.

Also, you cant pommel with a carbon fibre?

Demonic
-20th December 2004, 14:44
You can pommel with the carbon fibre grips. what ive done is just wrapped loads of padded tape around the bottom of the grip.

My advice to you when i comes to grips is go to a shop and try some out first to see how they feel as there are sooo many different ones.If you cant get to a shop then ask around at your local club to try people weapons and see how grip feels.

Ulrika
-20th December 2004, 20:00
Originally posted by Ice'Cold
Those attached grips show up on my computer extra small, so I cant really tell.
Sorry, I didn't realise it was the thumbnail I had attached... *oops*

Try this URL for a better view of the Zivkovic grips (https://www.allstar.de/modules/PostTep/images/pg03.jpg).

This entire page (https://www.allstar.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PostTep&file=index&action=default.php&cPath=25_2515_251505) will also show you lots of different grips.

gbm
-20th December 2004, 20:44
You can't pommel with a LP carbon fibre grip - but only because they don't have pommels :grin:
They are designed to be held anywhere along their length, at either end, so you can gain extra reach (potentially more than with a French grip).

Adler
-20th December 2004, 23:09
Allstar de has a good selection of grips you should be able to find one to suit every fencer apart from possibly a three fingered midget ;)

Muppet
-21st December 2004, 09:34
If you wanted to design your own grip, what are the main governing dimension? And no i don't have any rule books to hand..

DrT
-21st December 2004, 09:52
Yes you do ;)
http://fencingforum.com/forum/images/F.I.E_rules.gif (http://www.leonpaul.com/download/armoury.htm)

Muppet
-21st December 2004, 10:07
OK, it can be no longer than 20cm between B & E, but is there any straightness rules, width?:rolleyes:

DrT
-21st December 2004, 14:16
m.4

1. The maximum length of the grip in foil and épée is 20 cm, measured between lines B and E, and 18 cm, measured between lines B and D. In sabre the maximum length of the grip is 17 cm (see Figures 8, 9 and 13).

2. The grip must be able to pass through the same gauge as the guard. It must be so made that normally it cannot injure either the user or the opponent. :(

3. All types of hilts are allowed providing that they conform to the regulations which have been framed with a view to placing the various types of weapons on the same footing. However, at épée, orthopaedic grips, whether metal or not, may not be covered with leather or any material which could hide wires or switches.

4. The grip must not include any device which assists the fencer to use it as a throwing weapon. :(

5. The grip must not include any device which can increase in any way the protection afforded to the hand or wrist of the fencer by the guard: a cross bar or electric socket which extends beyond the edge of the guard is expressly forbidden.

6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.

(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard.


Interesting that 6b only applies to orthopaedic grips. I guess a lot of pomellers would be illegal otherwise?

gbm
-21st December 2004, 14:53
Also that a grip can be inherently illegal, but it can also be legal in the hand of one user and then illegal in the hand of another...
For example, Gardere grips are arguably illegal (Barry doesn't think so!), but you could have a pistol grip that one fencer would hold naturally with his thumb close enough to the guard, but then another fencer, using the same grip, might find his thumb too far away from the guard...

DrT
-21st December 2004, 15:37
No, I don't think so... ;)

According to the Sacred Book,

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.

(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard.


So, the only difference between fencers could be in the length of the complete extension of the extremity of the thumb...

"FIE declares thumb screws illegal" :eek:

gbm
-21st December 2004, 16:07
Yeah, that's what I meant - fencers with different sized thumbs might (hypothetically here) find different grips legal/illegal.

pinkelephant
-22nd December 2004, 07:46
Could this possibly be why they come in different sizes?

gbm
-22nd December 2004, 15:12
Originally posted by pinkelephant
Could this possibly be why they come in different sizes?

Sort of...
Also you want a grip that you can just about get your hand around...
Actually I trimmed a little bit off the front of mine...

Gav
-22nd December 2004, 15:44
Originally posted by goodbadandme
Sort of...
Also you want a grip that you can just about get your hand around...
Actually I trimmed a little bit off the front of mine...

I think Pinkelephant might know how to size a grip...

Do we have to give you another virtual slapping?

Ice'Cold
-22nd December 2004, 15:46
The grips I like best are the PGz2i and the Pgz2 from those pictures.

gbm
-22nd December 2004, 16:31
Originally posted by Gav
I think Pinkelephant might know how to size a grip...

Do we have to give you another virtual slapping?

Well obviously...
but I was just pointing out to anybody else (myself?) that we don't really buy different size grips so that they aren't illegal, we buy them to fit!

Muppet
-24th December 2004, 13:20
So, could you *******ise a carbon fibre pommel onto a pistol ( not exceeding 20cm) and be legal? so being able to change style during a bout? distance or control on the same grip?:rolleyes: :dizzy:

Muppet
-24th December 2004, 13:22
the ******* could also be a type of file, and i think it is a proper term, not just swearing:o:

gbm
-24th December 2004, 15:27
Originally posted by Muppet
So, could you *******ise a carbon fibre pommel onto a pistol ( not exceeding 20cm) and be legal? so being able to change style during a bout? distance or control on the same grip?:rolleyes: :dizzy:

No - because it would fail to comply with m4 part 6a:
"If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip."

Pauli
-25th December 2004, 08:24
I've read the word "pommel" a few times now, I looked it up in German, but it doesn't help me in any way. What is a pommel?

Tx & happy 25th of december.......

gbm
-25th December 2004, 15:35
The bit that screws onto the end of the tang on a French grip or a Sabre grip to hold the handle on.

gbm
-25th December 2004, 15:37
http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Foil_Pomels_and_Nuts.html

http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Ep_e_Pommels_and_Nuts.html

http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Sabre_Pommels.html

Pauli
-25th December 2004, 16:52
and what precisely is the reason for this small additive to your weapon? I could imagine one, it extending the size of the grip where the thumb and the showfinger lay on the grip. This maybe in order to better steer the weapon. Could that be?

And before I read something about pommeling. Throwing the weapon at someone while lunging.

Does that mean that this pommel allows a shifting of the weapon without loosening your grip?

Sorry, I'm a total beginner.........:rolleyes:

gbm
-25th December 2004, 18:24
Basically, if you have a grip like this:
http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/4PEM_foil_paul_etoile_leather.jpg

then the pommel both counterweights the sword so you can easily hold it, and also it holds the handle on as it screws (via a little brass thing on Leon Paul pommels) onto the end of the blade that passes through the handle (the 'tang').

If you have a grip like this:
http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/golubitski_weapon_large.jpg

then you don't have and don't need a pommel; instead there is a nut that screws onto the tang to hold the handle on.

If you have a sabre, then the pommel is just a big nut that screws on the end of the tang to hold the handle on.

Pommelling is just where you hold a French grip (first picture) by the pommel end of the grip for extra reach (nearly always in Epee). You are allowed to shift your grip up and down a French grip during a bout, but you are not allowed to 'throw' it while trying to hit, so you must hold onto hit when going to attack.

Pauli
-25th December 2004, 21:26
wow, thank you. A pommel has been solved!:mexwave:
:not_worth

I'll now lunge myself into my bed - and I'm sure I'll have sweet dreams, after all I was allowed to choose the wine from my dad's cellar. I decided that this year a Chateau Haut-Brion would do...

I hope you all enjoyed x-mas eve - or was the official one yesterday? I never know, different cultures different nights......the Swiss have their big dinner on the 24th, we - us being Dutch - have it on December 25.

However.....Hope you all had a good time.
Good night......

:sleep: