PDA

View Full Version : Mens Foil Rankings



Highlander
-7th February 2005, 14:43
Sorry to go on, but any news of the February Mens Foil rankings being published.
Lots of people "in the know" have been sent them.
It would be nice if someone would have the manners to publish them on the web. The Slough competition on Sunday was run with an out of date ranking list.

Boo Boo
-7th February 2005, 14:53
Originally posted by Highlander
Sorry to go on, but any news of the February Mens Foil rankings being published.
Lots of people "in the know" have been sent them.
It would be nice if someone would have the manners to publish them on the web. The Slough competition on Sunday was run with an out of date ranking list.

From what I have heard, Graham Paul (who publishes the ranking lists on the website) is on holiday for a while.

It is fortunate that you are an MF rather than an MF, otherwise you might have to learn a bit more patience... (or how to ask nicely... :( )

Boo

Highlander
-7th February 2005, 15:24
It is fortunate that you are an MF rather than an MF, otherwise you might have to learn a bit more patience... (or how to ask nicely... )

Boo

Why should I have to ask for it at at all.
We have competitions then results the results are sent in via spread sheets lists are updated results are published.

Except more often than not the rankings are not Published to the many but sent out to the few. WHY.

Insipiens
-7th February 2005, 15:37
Official ranking lists are of course not sent out to anybody as they are not official until they get published by the BFA.

The volunteer compiler sends them to the BFA (I understand on time mostly) for publication.

The BFA is under no obligation to publish them on a monthly basis. The up to date rankings are those published on the web.

I would question whether the websites where such rankings are published are paid for by the BFA (they are certainly not part of the BFA's webiste).

Are you going to provide the funding to pay for the system to enable the rankings to be updated automatically and published on the web? Or perhaps you could run the websites and never take a holiday on the 1st of the month. Should they be updated on New Year's Day?

Yes it would be nice if they were updated quickly (which for MF they often are) but how much difference would the updated rankings have actually made at Slough?

Competitions are not obliged to use notional unofficial rankings for seeding purposes rather than the most up to date official rankings. They are not even obliged to use the official rankings for seedings.

I am not sure that Slough got the seeding right for the MF using the January rankings from the "poule of death" I heard about. And as BooBoo meant to point out (but for the MF for WF typo ;) the WF rankings are still those as of 1 Dec 2004.

Boo Boo
-7th February 2005, 15:56
Originally posted by Highlander
Why should I have to ask for it at at all.
We have competitions then results the results are sent in via spread sheets lists are updated results are published.

Agreed that you shouldn't have to ask, but trying to point out that MF lists are normally updated pretty regularly. Also, I don't think it is a "lack of manners" that are preventing someone from updating the lists.


Originally posted by Highlander
Except more often than not the rankings are not Published to the many but sent out to the few. WHY.

Foil ranking lists are compiled by a number of people (Clive Jarman, MF, Dawn Townsend WF) and updated on the website by Graham Paul - so there a number of possibilities for delays (competition organisers sending in results, list compilers updating the lists, Graham updating the website...).

Clive Jarman very kindly sends the ranking list to a few people who request it from him. He needn't do this and he isn't being "exclusive".

In this case, as I said, I have been told that Graham is on holiday. Dawn told me that someone else has been left to update the WF rankings on the web (I don't know about the MF rankings, I assume the same person may have been left to update it). That person has just got a new computer and is having trouble opening/reading the ranking list files. So rankings may not get updated until Graham's return.

Maybe there could be a better system - where Clive and Dawn can update the lists on the web themselves...? Maybe the BFA will consider putting some money into updating the website and integrating the ranking lists into it (although that would take up money from other causes).

Boo

Caza
-7th February 2005, 16:00
What website are the rankings on?

caza

gbm
-7th February 2005, 16:02
Originally posted by Caza
What website are the rankings on?

caza

http://www.foilcommittee.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Boo Boo
-7th February 2005, 16:03
Originally posted by Caza
What website are the rankings on?

caza

The MF and WF rankings are on the foil committee website. All the sabre rankings are on Neil Brown's website. The epee rankings are spread across various websites.

It's a bit "spread about" - which, I guess, is because various different people have volunteered to do various different things.

Boo

rory
-7th February 2005, 17:29
I can kind of understand Highlander's frustration - sometimes when you're waiting for an update a few days seems a looong time.

But posting anonymous, *****y messages on an Internet forum is pretty immature.
If you want a copy of the ranking lists, be polite and email Clive like we "elite" types do - he's always been really helpful to me, and if you don't whine you might get a similar response.

These people have voluteered to help: at the end of the day they could pack it in tomorrow if they chose.

Robert
-7th February 2005, 17:56
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Clive Jarman very kindly sends the ranking list to a few people who request it from him. He needn't do this and he isn't being "exclusive".

But it could easily be perceived that there is. Clive is always very helpful about ranking lists if contacted, but it is unreasonable to expect all 700ish people competing to know that (someone, I believe Baldric, made a similar point to this in the BYC thread). It also doesn't help that perceptions of their being an 'in crowd' are nearly always met on this board with quite defensive answers from exactly those members who are perceived to be 'in'.

In an ideal world the rankings would be updated by the same person who uploaded them, and the delays to MF (which can be quite bad, though not as bad as WF) would be significantly reduced.

Robert

P.S The Epee rankings are now all on the same site being managed by John Haynes.

Boo Boo
-7th February 2005, 18:33
Originally posted by Robert
But it could easily be perceived that there is. Clive is always very helpful about ranking lists if contacted, but it is unreasonable to expect all 700ish people competing to know that

Yes, would imagine that Clive would not be keen on being contacted by every single MF each month, either... :o: ;)


Originally posted by Robert

It also doesn't help that perceptions of their being an 'in crowd' are nearly always met on this board with quite defensive answers from exactly those members who are perceived to be 'in'.

I guess that I get a little fed-up, sometimes, when I read lots of threads criticising the volunteers who do a lot of valuable work for fencers. Sometimes - in instances of perceived unfairness or corruption or abuse - criticism may be fair. BUT suggesting that nobody has had good enough manners for updating the MF ranking list (which is, currently, only 7 days overdue), seems rather unfair to me... I don't believe that there is any conspiracy/exclusivity about the ranking updates, the delay is just due to people being people (having other priorities, being on holiday and/or having computer problems etc.etc.).

It would be nice if all the ranking lists (including the cadet and junior ones) were updated at the first of every month, but there may be more constructive ways of suggesting this...


Originally posted by Robert

In an ideal world the rankings would be updated by the same person who uploaded them, and the delays to MF (which can be quite bad, though not as bad as WF) would be significantly reduced.

That would make life easier, but maybe not practical with the current website set-up (no idea...). Wonder if/when the BFA look at a new website, they might consider bringing everything together and allowing different people access to update things that they look after (might remove some of the current bottlenecks). But there may always be times when rankings are not updated for some reason or another...

Boo

Baldric
-7th February 2005, 19:10
Originally posted by Robert
But it could easily be perceived that there is. Clive is always very helpful about ranking lists if contacted, but it is unreasonable to expect all 700ish people competing to know that (someone, I believe Baldric, made a similar point to this in the BYC thread). It also doesn't help that perceptions of their being an 'in crowd' are nearly always met on this board with quite defensive answers from exactly those members who are perceived to be 'in'.


I did indeed, and very frustrating it can be too.

I don't want to get drawn into another "volunteer bashing" session, cos I drew enough fire on the BYC thread.

I appreciate that for Dawn, Clive etc, they must wonder why they ever took on the job.

Bearing in mind that the BFA was just awarded quite a lot of dosh for "world class administration", perhaps some of it (a relatively small amount I would imagine) could be spent on increasing the number of admin hours, and bringing this function in-house.

I know that Jnr would very much like to know her currrent ranking, but probably never will. By the time her L16 at H & W is reflected in the rankings, it will be overtaken by the Slough result, and hopefully by points from Hants, Invicta or Birmingham.

It is an interesting psychological problem for a parent. The better young fencers get used to winning medals at most of the age-group comps, (LPJS, PFS etc) and consider a L8 to be a disappointing result. Then they move up to opens, and parents and coaches have to adjust their expectations - the target is more like a L16 in a medium open or a L32 in a strong one. The climb up the adult rankings is an important part of the motivational ladder, or would be, if the tables were up to date.

Message to Dawn - next time I see you, expect a packet of Jelly Babies. (Pink Elephant will explain why!) :tongue:

Foilling Around
-7th February 2005, 20:56
Yes, Pinkelephant told me about the jellybabies when we met at Slough!! Hope it was a big pack!!!

You are right, fencers rarely do know their current ranking, but remember that it has only been the past few years that the Web has opened things up.

Prior to that we had to wait for the Sword every quarter or hope that event organisers posted the rankings they had been sent.

I am still unclear what the "World Class Administration" means, but a glance at the German fencing website shows what can be done. The funniest thing about this is the amazing translations it comes up with. I actually find it easier to read the German than the translation.

gbm
-7th February 2005, 21:26
Perhaps an email list, such as is used for the calendar updates?

Baldric
-7th February 2005, 21:55
Originally posted by Foilling Around
Yes, Pinkelephant told me about the jellybabies when we met at Slough!! Hope it was a big pack!!!




More medium sized, and I might have eaten one or two myself! :tongue:
I must have missed you at Slough - we were there both days. Local for us - a mere 70 odd miles!




You are right, fencers rarely do know their current ranking, but remember that it has only been the past few years that the Web has opened things up.

Prior to that we had to wait for the Sword every quarter or hope that event organisers posted the rankings they had been sent.


Unless I am missing the point entirely, the work involved is in getting the results from organisers and inputting them to whatever software does the calcs. Uploading to the net is a small job by comparison.




I am still unclear what the "World Class Administration" means, but a glance at the German fencing website shows what can be done. The funniest thing about this is the amazing translations it comes up with. I actually find it easier to read the German than the translation.

I don't know what it means either, but it surely doesn't mean that the WF rankings should be 2 months out of date!

(Is that two bags of Jelly Babies that I owe Dawn, or can I plead guilty to one offence, and ask for others to be taken into consideration?)

jameshoggarth
-7th February 2005, 23:21
comittee website and sent him a brief email on Sunday morning, on Monday morning he responded and said he would send them to me onc e he had completed them. I got in this evening to find them waiting in my in box.

I had tried to attach the file to this post but xl files are not allowed.

Sorry

gbm
-8th February 2005, 06:37
Originally posted by jameshoggarth
I had tried to attach the file to this post but xl files are not allowed.

Put it in a zip file. If you haven't got Winzip/WinRAR/WinACE/alternative, just change the ending to .zip, and we can all change it back.

pinkelephant
-8th February 2005, 07:33
Back in the eighties when I used to do the WF rankings it was once a year - no rolling rankings - and a card index system. You don't know how lucky you are!

jameshoggarth
-8th February 2005, 07:34
i have changed the file extension to .zip but it is still an xl file

I hope posting this will not open up a political can of worms, as someone who only started fencing again in september after an 11 year break I do not feel i am one of the special few!!

Exgeordielass
-8th February 2005, 08:19
Originally posted by jameshoggarth
i have changed the file extension to .zip but it is still an xl file

I hope posting this will not open up a political can of worms, as someone who only started fencing again in september after an 11 year break I do not feel i am one of the special few!!

Anyone able to read this, my computer won't have anything to do without file is 'invalid or corrupted'.:upset:

rpryer
-8th February 2005, 08:25
If you save the file (don't open it directly) and then change the extension to .xls, then it should then open in Excel.

J_D
-8th February 2005, 08:29
Woooooohooooooooo up 30 places :grin:

J_D
-8th February 2005, 08:38
Thanks for that James, now can anyone do it for the Girlie Foil?

Highlander
-8th February 2005, 08:58
[

But posting anonymous, *****y messages on an Internet forum is pretty immature.
If you want a copy of the ranking lists, be polite and email Clive like we "elite" types do - he's always been really helpful to me, and if you don't whine you might get a similar response.

Most postings on this forum are anonymous, are we all immature?

The posting was made to illicit a prescribed response( it worked).

If I and 500 odd other people emailed Clive every month I'm sure he would be rather P*** off. So not realy the answer is it.


These people have voluteered to help: at the end of the day they could pack it in tomorrow if they chose. [/B][/QUOTE]

Although I appreciate these people have volunteered to help they are infact, not helping (in the case of two months behind for the WF).
I'm not great at IT stuff but know it's not that hard a job to collate and post these rankings. If these people don't want the responsibility (they volunteererd for) they should perhaps stand down.


p.s
This is a forum to disscuss issues about fencing and that is all I'm doing.

ChubbyHubby
-8th February 2005, 09:35
Originally posted by Highlander


I'm not great at IT stuff but know it's not that hard a job to collate and post these rankings. If these people don't want the responsibility (they volunteererd for) they should perhaps stand down.


To post the rankings to a website is not hard, but to collate them is not a simple matter at all. It's not as if there is a computer program that they just import the results (the results do not always come in the same format, nor is there any ready identification of fencer/bfa no/position in the rankings).

There is a lot of fiddling around with Excel etc and then manually checking for errors. You can see this in that every weapon's rankings are presented in a different way.

I have lots of respect for Clive Jarman. He received the Slough results yesterday. He was actually up at 6am to do them this morning. I know because he sent me an email at 6.30!!!

So I think your comment is completely unfair.

pinkelephant
-8th February 2005, 09:40
Comments about people standing down might be a bit more palatable if those making the comments offered, and were competent, to take over. Strange that they never do.

ChubbyHubby
-8th February 2005, 10:00
Originally posted by Boo Boo


Maybe there could be a better system - where Clive and Dawn can update the lists on the web themselves...? Maybe the BFA will consider putting some money into updating the website and integrating the ranking lists into it (although that would take up money from other causes).

Boo

I think that it would take up money from other causes will always stop them from developing a good website. As far as I know, the BFA tries to "do it on the cheap" (see the new membership database).

IT requires realistic budgets to get professional results.

For example, the South West Section website (www.southwestfencing.net) which has a full content management system behind it would have cost 15-20k if it were charged at full commerical rate.

J_D will tell you it is fairly straighforward to use even without any technical skills. But IMHO the BFA will always go for some Open Source solution which I think is false economy.

rory
-8th February 2005, 10:14
Stop angling for the work ChubbyHubby!
(Only joking :) )

But seriously guys, have a look at AskFred (http://www.askfred.net) - online results management, entries too.
The people who run it do so for free, in their own time from what I understand.

Might be it could be adapted for UK usage if they gave us the source...

ChubbyHubby
-8th February 2005, 10:30
Originally posted by rory
Stop angling for the work ChubbyHubby!
(Only joking :) )

They can't afford me! Which is the point I am making... :o:


Originally posted by rory

But seriously guys, have a look at AskFred (http://www.askfred.net) - online results management, entries too.
The people who run it do so for free, in their own time from what I understand.

Might be it could be adapted for UK usage if they gave us the source...

Yes, but who is going to do it for free unless they do it in their free time? And if they do it in their free time it will take a long time to finish. I believe AskFred has been in development for years.

Insipiens
-8th February 2005, 10:39
Originally posted by Highlander

Although I appreciate these people have volunteered to help they are infact, not helping (in the case of two months behind for the WF).
I'm not great at IT stuff but know it's not that hard a job to collate and post these rankings. If these people don't want the responsibility (they volunteererd for) they should perhaps stand down.

If you think it is not that hard a job to do, you can always do it yourself for your own personal interest. all you need is:
the results from the home opens from the BFA website
the results from the internationals where GB fencers competed
a good understanding of how the NIF is calculated at each competition
excel
quite a few hours of spare time
the detailed rankings list for the previous month (as corrected for any errors)
the top 50 rankings from 1 Sept or 1 Mar previous
the FIE rankings list at the end of last season
;)

Exgeordielass
-8th February 2005, 15:36
Originally posted by rpryer
If you save the file (don't open it directly) and then change the extension to .xls, then it should then open in Excel.

Thank You, that worked :grin:

gbm
-10th February 2005, 17:43
I've gone up two - I really need my Plymouth points!

Neo
-23rd February 2005, 09:23
Originally posted by Highlander
Sorry to go on, but any news of the February Mens Foil rankings being published.
Lots of people "in the know" have been sent them.
It would be nice if someone would have the manners to publish them on the web. The Slough competition on Sunday was run with an out of date ranking list.

Attached

or rather not attached as we can't attach xls's!

Now online at http://www.martinjgreen.me.uk/MF-Feb05.xls
(or rather will be in the next 5 mins)

Incidentally, the rankings haven't been published as Graham Paul who normally uploads em to the web is away. (This has probably already been said but I cba reading the whole thread)

D'Artignan
-23rd February 2005, 09:53
Hmmm..I appear to have disappeared altogether! Looks like I'll have to go to some competitions again soon....:(

pigeonmeister
-23rd February 2005, 10:19
Halstead has slipped dramatically but well done for Beevers to regain points after Bristol L64. Has Kruse given up the domestic circuit- I wonder if we will see him at Birmingham?

rory
-23rd February 2005, 12:43
Think Kruse is in China at the mo.

pigeonmeister
-23rd February 2005, 16:43
Originally posted by rory
Think Kruse is in China at the mo.

There goes half of his sport grant!

Neo
-23rd February 2005, 20:01
Originally posted by Highlander
It is fortunate that you are an MF rather than an MF, otherwise you might have to learn a bit more patience... (or how to ask nicely... )

Boo

Why should I have to ask for it at at all.
We have competitions then results the results are sent in via spread sheets lists are updated results are published.

Except more often than not the rankings are not Published to the many but sent out to the few. WHY.

because the person who compiles the rankings (Clive Jarman) has done so, on time and as usual, however the person who they're then submitted to (Graham Paul) and published by is away.

Remember the person who compiles the rankings does it for free on a voluntary basis and sending him obnoxious emails isn't gonna do much good - they've been submitted just not put on the web. The MF rankings are usually published pretty much like clockwork on the first of the month and I can't say I have any complaints. Rather Clive should be commended for the mammoth task of compiling them every month.

pigeonmeister
-24th February 2005, 08:21
Clive is a good man, I fence with his son Alex at Birmingham Uni, so I see him a bit. If he gets hassled he just wont want to do it anymore.

Neo
-25th February 2005, 21:05
Originally posted by pigeonmeister
Halstead has slipped dramatically but well done for Beevers to regain points after Bristol L64. Has Kruse given up the domestic circuit- I wonder if we will see him at Birmingham?

Given the Olympics count for points and the likely insanely high N IF he probably won't have to bother with domestic circuit for quite some time...

Edit: actually looking at rankings, his a-grade points have dropped - maybe they don't count after all?