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Andy W.
-8th February 2005, 13:53
An old thread I think but....

Why can't we get all the entry forms for the LPJS on line????? Surely a generic LPJS entry form can be worked out and published along with details of whom it should sent to for each event?

The yearly scramble to find out details of some of the events and then obtain the application form has become tedious in the extreme., plus the cost in stamps and SAEs etc could be reduced, which apart from saving money for parents would cut down on the admin for the organisers, reduce the number of trees cut down to make paper for envelopes and maybe even save the planet!

Blindingly obvious?

kingkenny
-9th February 2005, 08:19
Some organisers dont have computers and rather do things by post and cheque.

Baldric
-9th February 2005, 16:28
The Premier series booklet has an entry form, plus venue map for every competition in the book.

I appreciate that there are far less comps, and only three different organisers, but this is a fantastic advantage - once you have the book, you have everything you need.

Failling that, why not put a generic entry form into the LPJS booklet that could be photocopied and used for all events.

Enclose an SAE to get check in times and map (and be sure that your entry has been received).

Andy W.
-9th February 2005, 17:01
The Premier series web site also has application form and maps for each comp.
Even those organisers without email could make use of this web site to post application forms as I suggest. Submission of completed forms and cheques will I accept always be via snail mail for the foreseeable!

kingkenny
-10th February 2005, 07:35
The premire series has so few competitions that you canít really compare them one is only for foil and has very few competitions. Its like comparing the premiership to a 5 a-side kick around in a park. The problem is that some organisers are not computer literate and even though I have offered to put all the competitions on-line there were only 8 takers.
See here: http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Bristol_Cadet_Sabre_Sunday_29th_May_2005.html
As time goes on and I can put more of my time into helping and the easier it will become. The 2005 booklet this year was very good with a massive amount of good information and there are more events than ever before.
Give it a few more years and it will be perfect! ;)

Foilling Around
-10th February 2005, 17:33
I have asked for a link to my entry form directly from the Leon Paul website, but it has come to nothing. Maybe we can sort it out for 2006.

pinkelephant
-10th February 2005, 23:22
The Arnold Epee one will be available next week.

Half term :grin: :tongue: :party:

Baldric
-10th February 2005, 23:25
Originally posted by Kingkenny
The premire series has so few competitions that you canít really compare them one is only for foil and has very few competitions. Its like comparing the premiership to a 5 a-side kick around in a park.

Errrrr....just cos the Premier is a smaller series doesn't mean that the LPJS can't learn from those aspects that the Premier does better.




The 2005 booklet this year was very good with a massive amount of good information and there are more events than ever before.
Give it a few more years and it will be perfect! ;)

I agree that this years book is better than last years. However, there are still lots of posts on the forum asking where entry forms can be had - and thats from the computer literate section of the fencing community.

Might I suggest that some effort be made (by the LPJS co-ordinator - is it still Simon?) to ensure that at all LPJS events, there are forms for all subsequent events in that season?

randomsabreur
-11th February 2005, 11:11
Entry forms for LPJS are not really the responsibility of the co-ordinator, but of the organisers of the individual competitions. They are the ones who set the entry fees, check in times etc. THere is a big different between the Premier series (think centralised state, run by the organisers of the 3 comps) and the LPJS which is a kind of umbrella over lots on individual comps.

gbm
-12th February 2005, 21:38
I have a strange image of this image:
http://www.wfmu.org/Gfx/rotate/commie_p3.jpg

except with 'fence in the Premier series' replacing 'pirate MP3s'...

Baldric
-13th February 2005, 00:10
Originally posted by randomsabreur
Entry forms for LPJS are not really the responsibility of the co-ordinator, but of the organisers of the individual competitions.

All I was suggesting was that entry forms for future LPJS events be available at current ones. I can thing of no better person to co-ordinate this than the co-ordinator.



THere is a big different between the Premier series (think centralised state, run by the organisers of the 3 comps) and the LPJS which is a kind of umbrella over lots on individual comps.

There are currently 6 Premier series events, not 3. It just happens that a 3 organisers run them all. (I think).

I appreciate that the LPJS is a much bigger logistical undertaking - nevertheless, some people are obviously having difficulty accessing entry forms, therefore reducing participation, and limiting the sales of kit which LP (presumably) hopes to gain through its sponsorship of the series.

Anything that can be done to remove barriers to participation helps the fencers, the sponsor and the sport.

PM1
-13th February 2005, 14:25
Heaven help me, but I think I have to agree with Baldric - at least to the extent that the job of a co ordinator is to co ordinate....the booklet (fine job - didn't know i'd sent you so many pics) could have a couple of blank forms for those who do not want to /can't use the web. If each organiser sent a copy of their entry form to Simon I suspect he would copy off and take a load to each comp, since not every organiser goes to every comp, and neither does every fencer, especially now there are quite a few for each weapon all over the shop - marvellous!!

Just feeling a bit bossy today - been up too long:sleep: :sleep:

Baldric
-13th February 2005, 17:35
Originally posted by PM1
Heaven help me, but I think I have to agree with Baldric

:tongue:

Tubby
-13th February 2005, 19:03
Originally posted by PM1
....the booklet (fine job - didn't know i'd sent you so many pics) Interesting that the adidas stripes on the fencer's socks on the from cover have been air brushed out (same photo on the montage on the back but with stripes still present). Mind you, no point in product placing if you not getting any compensation for placing product!

Tubby
-13th February 2005, 19:05
....:dizzy: how sad that I studied the montage on the back to do spot the difference :sumo:

StabInTheDark
-14th February 2005, 16:51
At present this process is a bit chaotic and haphazard for such a large national series, this is the legacy of a small voluntary - run way of doing things that the series should now out-grow.

The Premier series is indeed well organised but even they have problems e.g. the 20 March event has been postponed after publication of their boooklet because of a booking error. THE LPJS foil alone is three or four times as big as the whole premier series and problems of complexity associated with scale grow geometrically, not in a linear fashion

Suggested improvements however:

There should be a "template" for information for local organisers to complete and email (or post back) to Leon Paul: this could be fed into a standard HTML entry form to be available from the LP website in "tailored" form some reasonable time before each event, parents to download for filling in and posting with payment.

Each organiser to provide, via this template, in legible form:

The Name of the LPJS Event
The Date(s) on which to be held
The Venue and Postcode
Short (40 words) description of how to get there
The Weapon
The Age groups to be competed at that event
The Check in close Time for each category
The Fees payable per competitor
The Closing date for receipt of entries and whether this is an absolute.
The payee specified for cheque payments
The name and address of the organiser to whom entries are to be sent.
A telephone contact number for emergencies on the day.
Additional fee payable for late entries (if permitted)

The web form layout should provide ample space for:

The Name(s) of the competitor(s) to be entered.
Registration number(s) (of same)
Girl or Boy (!)
DATE OF BIRTH.
Parental signature (below disclaimer)
Names of Referees available

The "standard" layout to be provided by Leon Paul should also include the following information:

The years of birth for each age group for that year of competition
Suggested link to postcode based source for directions e.g. Mapquest or Multimap
The Requirement for provision of referees (e.g. suggested minimum one referee per 6 fencers from one club)
Requirement for current Registration card to be shown (and current guidance on application on day if/if not permitted)
Organisers' Disclaimer
Need for Parental signature and date.
Where to find a copy of the rules.

The Calendar is the obvious (only) place to put the hyperlink for each competition entry form as it comes out.

There is nothing in this to prevent local organisers from producing their own local version for paper distribution, contact as per LPJS handbook, and it would be beneficial to have these available at the stand at preceding events (good to get hold of Scottish and Eton Foil entry forms at Sherwood for example). Not every fencer or parent has internet access - yet, and there is a kind of arrogance among some of the the web-literate that needs to be kept in check.

With the number of competitions being offered across all 3 weapons, it is not really conceivable that the handbook could contain full correct and proofed entries for all events at the start of the year, there are some errors that creep in that are obvious to the organisers but not the co-ordinator e.g. Durham Sabre will not in fact have U17, as Ridley Martin cup is same day. also some details or dates e.g. Brighton are unclear at the start of the year.

errors and omissions excepted!

I'm sure the organisers get as sick of having to direct people to a variety of sources as the fencers' parents do in trying to get hoild of the forms.

See you all at Ashton foil

pinkelephant
-14th February 2005, 20:49
I have no problem with forms published on the web as long as they are filled in and posted. However, I won't accept electronic forms without that vital parental signature.

Baldric
-14th February 2005, 21:26
Originally posted by pinkelephant
I have no problem with forms published on the web as long as they are filled in and posted. However, I won't accept electronic forms without that vital parental signature.

Often, when buying something online, you have to check a little box that says something like "I have read the terms and conditions and agree to be bound by them"

I don't know how much legal force this has - can it be considered equivalent to signing a form?

StabInTheDark
-14th February 2005, 22:36
Checking the box merely says the person holding the credit card has agreed to the terms and conditions of a purchase online: it does not prove who checked the box, and is a some distance short of a parental signature (could be completed by someone not acting in loco parentis) for entering a child into a competition.

The time is probably coming when we will all have "Digital signatures" (unique encrypted identifiers) but until then I agree with Pink Elephant there is no proper substitute for a parent's signature in ink on the form itself.

The more widely, reliably and completely entry orms can be made available the better, but putting them on a net is a means of distribution, not collection.

wingnutLP
-15th February 2005, 08:55
Stab in the dark,

Thank you for your suggestions. We have been trying to unify the system of entries across the board but because of the way that the series has grown up it can be a little tricky.

The series has been around for so long that getting the organisers to agree on/change the way they operate is next to impossible!
Clicking a box is legally binding. If you certify that you are the legal guardian by ticking a box it is the same as agreeing by the microsoft licence agreement etc...

We have on line entry for a couple of comps but most organisers are not receptive. Maybe for next season we can get all of the organisers to give the basic info for their comps and put up an HTML version of the entry forms on the site. If we can get ALL of the relevant info into the calendar we could include 2 or 4 pull out entry form blanks in the middle of the callendar.

We definately don't want to be printing out hanfulls of forms for people to take to comps and Simon isn't even at all of them.

StabInTheDark
-15th February 2005, 12:30
There are a couple more entry forms for May at:

http://www.fencingnortheast.org/LPJSE.doc

and

http://www.fencingnortheast.org/LPJSS.doc

if you want to link to them, they will be there unti the closing date.

The legally binding nature of a check box still doesn't make it verifiable for child protection (mind you I see your point - any old squiggle on a form)..

kingkenny
-15th February 2005, 12:58
http://www.leonpaul.com/lpjs/lpjs_entry_forms.htm

So if people have links or text documents I can put them all here.

StabInTheDark
-15th February 2005, 14:01
I just looked at the page but got error 404 messages from trying the links - documents don't appear to be on the server yet: will try again this evening. Thanks!

Andy W.
-15th February 2005, 15:27
I couldn't have put it any better than you, stab in the dark.

Personally, I was not and I am not asking for email submission of forms = just an easier route to getting the forms for those comps we want to enter. I think signing off and sending a cheque to pay the entry fee helps us to commit to turning up (acts of god, illness etc permitting). We didn't get a copy of the LPJS booklet and I do think in these days of technology it will be easier for organisers and parents if these forms are accessible from one site via the web.

But not too sure about the arrogance of web literate..is that a calculated insult or something you'd like to enlarge on????:grin:

Andy W.
-15th February 2005, 15:31
Poll closed, thanks for participating I hope LPJS will take it on for next year if not this year.

Oh, and I have got a copy of the Eton entry form - it arrived today by post.

kingkenny
-15th February 2005, 15:38
Ok the problem with that page is now fixed. Next month I will spend 2 days and see if I can make a easier system that attaches to the calander that has all the forms in some sort of generic format.

kingkenny
-16th February 2005, 11:45
http://www.leonpaul.com/lpjs/results/res_2005/res_2005.htm

StabInTheDark
-16th February 2005, 16:01
Andy W - no not a calculated insult but just the observation that some people are so used now to doing everything on the web that they are losing sight of the fact that others still prefer paper. Personally I print entry forms off Web and copy for distribution at the club. It takes all sorts!