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Rhubarb
-12th June 2003, 10:53
What do fencers understand by the oft used phrase, good/bad referee. I think we should all be told

Gav
-12th June 2003, 11:25
A good referee:

confident/assertive
knowledgable
understandable
enforces discipline


A bad referee:

hesitant
lacking knowledge
not clear
doesn't enforce discipline

Cheetara
-12th June 2003, 11:50
I would add consistent on the list of good points and unattentive on the list of bad points, some referees don't completely keep an eye on what's going on in the fight.

pinkelephant
-12th June 2003, 12:31
Another bad point - keeping the score in their head instead of on paper or a electronic widgit.

aao
-12th June 2003, 12:53
Originally posted by Rhubarb
What do fencers understand by the oft used phrase, good/bad referee. I think we should all be told


One who awards me the fight ;)

Seriously though as long as you are Confident and Consistant thats all a fencer can really ask for (this goes for international refs too who do vary hugely in terms of competance)

doobarz
-12th June 2003, 17:10
A good referee knows the rules and applies them consistantly and fairly to all fencers.

randomsabreur
-13th June 2003, 18:30
a good referee is controlled and in control, makes few errors!

A bad referee is one who panics, is over authoritive, and/or gets things wrong.

ihunter
-15th June 2003, 19:28
A good referee is Qualified and not fencing in the comp he is offciciating at and on evert other occasion has no interest in who wins

randomsabreur
-17th June 2003, 17:41
In that case there are not enough "good" referees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A good ref can also be a fencer who has finished the event and did not lose to the person they ref next!

Rhubarb
-18th June 2003, 08:33
I don't think so! The concept of impartiality(look it up) doesn't seem to have entered the behaviour of British Sabre or indeed foil and seems to have been sacrificed to expediency. There is a fundamental dichotomy between the 'progress' of competitions;the convenience of fencers and the inability/unwillingness of the fencing public and/or organisers to make suitable arrangements/pay for independant referees. We all think independant ref's a good idea but only now are the more progresive comps making suitable arrangements to use our undoubted talent in this area.

Gav
-18th June 2003, 09:07
I agree with you Rhubarb.

There is a real problem with allowing fencers to be ref's. Especially for the 'subjective' weapons. It's not as pronounced in Epee but there is still scope for bias to creep in.

There other issue that I have with fencers being ref's is that inconsistencies tend to spread virally. You get this problem where if one fencer with a reputation makes an odd call and sticks by it then those on the receiving end think 'He must know - it's X'. Then they go off and quote the same ruling (a bit like lawyers) and over time these things get taken as gospel. This is one of the reasons that Foil has become so badly presided.

3 Card Trick
-18th June 2003, 13:57
Good call Gav. This is exactly how "local" interpretations of the Rules start to spread, the further down the chain the interpretation gets the further from the Rule it tends to get.;)

haggis
-18th June 2003, 17:02
Generally agree with Gav and 'local' in this case can been 'British'. The comparison with lawyers is slightly misleading because judges can make a ruling where there is no legislation that specifically covers a situation and it will be used as precedent until legislation is introduced - it's called common law. The comparison might fairly be drawn with guidlines issued by the FIE Referees Committee e.g. point in line must be in the high line (not stated anywhere in the Rules)

randomsabreur
-18th June 2003, 20:26
Can we have some good (by Ihunter's definition) for the nationals please. I do not want to repeat last years experience of being forced by circumstances to referee the top 2 fencers in my poule and get criticised for my refereeing by the fiance of one of them. We need ref's for the poules and the later stages of the DE, please please please. I cannot referee and fence in the same poule without making a mess of both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheetara
-19th June 2003, 12:40
I think you getting criticized in this situation sounds really harsh, no matter what the quality of your presiding was. Though I expect it would be better than any of mine! There are so many points available at the nationals and they are more expensive to enter than other comps qualified, impartial refs really should be provided.

Rhubarb
-19th June 2003, 13:14
I gather the 'full monty' of the GB fie ref's have been invited to the nationals so look out for Messrs Smith, Hunter,Casey,Thornton
et al strutting their stuff at Cosford. I suspect a few of us are about to discover some 'new' rules, or are about to have the necessary ones enforced.

Boo Boo
-19th June 2003, 13:42
They are normally at the Nationals (and most other competitions) anyway: I guess whether you get them depends a lot on which weapon you fence and which weapon they are presiding that day. Peter and Mike tend to referee a lot of women's foil...

Boo