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View Full Version : Foil timings to change in Sept



ChubbyHubby
-1st April 2005, 07:47
A coach returning from the Worlds told me that they voted to change the contact time back down to 8ms and keeping the blockout time the same.

Apparently this is going to come into effect in Sept....

Honk
-1st April 2005, 08:32
I think this is what you've been suggesting all along? ;)

After much soul-searching (having been very anti flick hits), I think this would be a good option, not least because a square hit with a two inch bend in the blade should always get a light and my stop hits like the new blocking time :)

ChubbyHubby
-1st April 2005, 08:46
Originally posted by Honk
I think this is what you've been suggesting all along? ;)



Actually, I think the 8ms will be pointless - they might as well not have it at all and just keep the blockout time.

With 8ms only the most extreme flicks won't come up because of the contact time. The blockout time is what discourages people from flicking (when fencing people of the same ability).

This means we can go back to whacking bunnies on the back in poules!

Foilling Around
-1st April 2005, 08:47
More money for Barry! Four boxes to change over the summer

D'Artignan
-1st April 2005, 08:52
Hang on, just realised the date. You sure this isn't an April Fool joke from the FIE?

pinkelephant
-1st April 2005, 09:13
I thought to be anything to do with the FIE you had to have a sense-of-humour-otomy?

D'Artignan
-1st April 2005, 09:15
Point taken (sorry about the really bad pun), but it sort of infers that they actually listened to people, which is another thing the FIE aren't renowned for.

Insipiens
-1st April 2005, 09:37
but the origin of this thread is not the FIE but Chubbyhubby.

mutley
-1st April 2005, 09:38
as the bunny who is soon to be whacked in the poule my 1st impression is that this is the worst of both worlds, if only extreme flicks won't come up(i know and i have been practicing against flicks with distance etc etc etc and i know that the way to stop the unceasing clicks to the rear of my right shoulder is to get better) so i'm going to be flicked out of the poules and DE's by the higher ranking fencers and still have the sewing machine remisers hit me with out of time counter attacks,

oh well and never mind, micro rant over, time to practice some more

D'Artignan
-1st April 2005, 09:47
Originally posted by Insipiens
but the origin of this thread is not the FIE but Chubbyhubby. True, but where did the timing change decision originate from?

Insipiens
-1st April 2005, 09:52
Originally posted by D'Artignan
True, but where did the timing change decision originate from? Do you mean last year's introduction of the new timings? I am presuming that today's thread relates to no real decision by the FIE but originates purely from CH and 1st April.

ChubbyHubby
-1st April 2005, 10:01
Well, as far as I know it's NOT an April Fool joke.

One of the coaches who just came back from the worlds champs said last night.

I did think I should have posted last night to have more credibility, but thought it would be better to let you lot wonder.

Perhaps Keith S. can shed more light on the timing change?

D'Artignan
-1st April 2005, 10:45
He posted a comment in the foil section saying they would review the timings.

Boo Boo
-1st April 2005, 10:57
Originally posted by Insipiens
but the origin of this thread is not the FIE but Chubbyhubby.

I know, I often doubt what he is saying (even if it ISN'T April 1st!)!!!

But this is true - he was told it last night by a coach who just returned from the Worlds. Whether the FIE stick to it - or change their (sorry "his") minds again is anyone's guess though... :upset:

Boo

D'Artignan
-1st April 2005, 11:15
Even if they do stick to it, what's to say the apparent differences in how manufacturers interpret the specs. will disappear?

Insipiens
-1st April 2005, 11:18
Post from Keith Smith on his letter thread here (http://fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=94794#post94794) (halfway down the page) says the FIE is to "review" foil again.

BigPappaBear
-4th April 2005, 08:21
Does this mean that all the clubs that have rechipped there boxes... will have to fork out again. :(

Quite glad that I haven't wasted a couple hundred pounds on rechipping the boxes I have. Will the FIE ever make a final decision. or are they going to string it out... as a club organiser should I now be trying to budget for annual box changes?

nirvana
-4th April 2005, 18:11
was 8ms the old contact time? if it wasnt what was the old contact time?

thanks

rpryer
-4th April 2005, 18:13
The old time was 2 to 5 ms. 8 ms was suggested as a compromise between the old and the new.

nirvana
-4th April 2005, 18:20
In which case the perfectly timed counter attacker would get the hit against some one you knew were going to flick?

vil
-4th April 2005, 21:23
Originally posted by nirvana
In which case the perfectly timed counter attacker would get the hit against some one you knew were going to flick?
You're getting confused with the blocking time. The contact time is the amount of time that the tip has to be pressed in for hit to register (or the blade in contact with the lame, for sabre). The blocking time is the window in which you can still get a double-light after the first hit registers.

pigeonmeister
-5th April 2005, 09:13
I'm so not convinced that Roch will bring it back to 8ms. What is very likely, I think, is that whatever 'review' there is will judge that the present timings are not 100% acceptable and so there will be some change. But allow flicks again?...not convinced but fingers crossed!

ChubbyHubby
-5th April 2005, 09:21
Originally posted by pigeonmeister
I'm so not convinced that Roch will bring it back to 8ms. What is very likely, I think, is that whatever 'review' there is will judge that the present timings are not 100% acceptable and so there will be some change. But allow flicks again?...not convinced but fingers crossed!

The thing is, even if they kept it at 15ms and add filtering to make straight hits come up, you can still flick easily. Surely even Roch recognises the importance of straight hits coming up.

Going to 8ms will probably have the same effect, but probably cheaper to implement both for FIE and the manufacturers.

If saving the FIE a few bob means RR can go on more jollies, he might just do it :transport

pigeonmeister
-5th April 2005, 10:12
Originally posted by ChubbyHubby
The thing is, even if they kept it at 15ms and add filtering to make straight hits come up, you can still flick easily.

People keep saying you can still flick easily but I think I must be missing a trick. I admit I have have not really tried to adapt my flicking technique but my flicks must have been at the shorter end of the contact time in the old timings as only about 1 in 7 work now. I must say that when fencing I have also not really been hit with many flicks, even though people like Phil West have tried. I've heard, Chubb, that at some comps you have been able to flick as if nothing had changed but at others you had trouble so, apart form tip maintenance, can you give me a crash course in how to flick on new timings?

If it is so easy to flick in new timings, then why has foil fencing changed so much- I didn't think that all the elite fencers were moaning just about straight hits not registering, they moan cos they can't flick anymore and as such the target area is more easily defended and attacks are slower (ruining the game).

I think the RR has made a stand (personal crusade) against flicking, he also feels he has an electoral mandate do do this. I still can't see the sport returning to the fencing we saw for the last time at the olympics, which is basically what an 8ms ct would do. What is more annoying is that I'm just getting 'closure' (as the yanks call it) on foil being changed/ruined and have accepted it- now my hopes are rising that the good old days are coming back. I wanna know where foil stands and I'm not going to know for a long time I suspect. What a flippin joke.

rory
-5th April 2005, 10:30
Short course:
Need a bit of oomph in the arm, but no snap in the hand: keep the hand soft.

Hand needs to finish high/wide - more so than before.

ChubbyHubby
-5th April 2005, 10:42
Originally posted by pigeonmeister
People keep saying you can still flick easily but I think I must be missing a trick. I admit I have have not really tried to adapt my flicking technique but my flicks must have been at the shorter end of the contact time in the old timings as only about 1 in 7 work now. I must say that when fencing I have also not really been hit with many flicks, even though people like Phil West have tried. I've heard, Chubb, that at some comps you have been able to flick as if nothing had changed but at others you had trouble so, apart form tip maintenance, can you give me a crash course in how to flick on new timings?

Flicking is easy as a move technically, not so easy in fights against better/equal opponents tactically.

Phil's flicks have always tended to be at the end of a long fast lunge to the top of the shoulder. I think my flicks have always tended to be repostes and I tend to "thud" the tip in rather than just "ping" it.

As for me, I find flicking easy against bunnies as they tend to rush at you either running past or do a low lunge. The only comp I had trouble flicking was Leciester on the Allstar panels.

Against better fencers I don't flick that much anyway, even under old timings. Having said that at Birmingham I even got a couple on Sam Stockley's back.



Originally posted by pigeonmeister
If it is so easy to flick in new timings, then why has foil fencing changed so much- I didn't think that all the elite fencers were moaning just about straight hits not registering, they moan cos they can't flick anymore and as such the target area is more easily defended and attacks are slower (ruining the game).

Because like I said, technically easy to flick as in getting the light on, but not that viable as tactically anymore as an attack - due to the blockout time. Most fencers on the open circuit I've talked to is more annoyed by the striaght hits not coming up than flicks being hard to land. But you are right, most would rather leave it the way it was.


Originally posted by pigeonmeister
I think the RR has made a stand (personal crusade) against flicking, he also feels he has an electoral mandate do do this. I still can't see the sport returning to the fencing we saw for the last time at the olympics, which is basically what an 8ms ct would do. What is more annoying is that I'm just getting 'closure' (as the yanks call it) on foil being changed/ruined and have accepted it- now my hopes are rising that the good old days are coming back. I wanna know where foil stands and I'm not going to know for a long time I suspect. What a flippin joke.
Don't think 8ms would return it to the way it was, and you are right RR is probably going to keep messing around with it.

As for technique, its about stopping the tip from "bouncing" off the target, and getting the impact angle near to 90deg as possible. Also, a lot of people used to flick will a fly fishing action - throw and yank. Just do the throw and don't yank.

*Keep hand higher than before to drop the tip in
*Aim for soft bits or catch tip in collar bone
*Leave the hand there a little longer after impact (don't yank)

Failing that find a fat left hander to fence... ;)

pigeonmeister
-5th April 2005, 11:12
Originally posted by ChubbyHubby
.

1) I think my flicks have always tended to be repostes and I tend to "thud" the tip in rather than just "ping" it.

2) Most fencers on the open circuit I've talked to is more annoyed by the striaght hits not coming up than flicks being hard to land. But you are right, most would rather leave it the way it was.


3)Failing that find a fat left hander to fence... ;)



1) My flicks tended to be a sweeping/collecting cicular parry (as late as possible) followed by a snapping of my wrist to flick the point on. As this was nearly always a one light situation I can't see how the block-out timing would be relevant now and most of my flicks that have worked have come from this action against weaker opposition (generally) I think I was more more of a pinger than a thudder so will try 'fixing' my wrist with softer hands and use my height to finish high. Yet I still can only see this as possible against those who slide in attacks too low, bending down (i.e bunnies). Against mush better fencers, I could previously use my height and strong wrist to wrap the blade over their shoulder even if they were not stooping. This only needed a beat, not the kind of collecting riposte that naturally finishes with a high hand. I fear that the former is no longer possible as it is not possible to finish high enough so I can see what your saying about it being tactically non viable.

I think the idea of not yanking will work best for me, but could hurt people a tiny bit as I learn to 'thud' not 'ping' as you put it!

2) I agree that for a lot of us the straight attacks are the main problem. But I don't, having read fairly widely, think that people like Cassara, Guyart and Kruse that this is the main problem. If you read Kruse's interview in the Scotsmen (or some scottish paper I can't remember) he makes no mention of straight attacks not registering but explicitely laments the decline of the flick. They are arguing about the whole tactical and dynamic nature of fencing as a sport and as a spectacle being changed, the technical imperfections are just another fault of a system they oppose for the kind of fencing it delivers (not just its inconsistencies).

3) that would be too easy!

Boo Boo
-5th April 2005, 11:24
Originally posted by pigeonmeister
3) that would be too easy!

Yeah, how many fat left-handers do you know? We have a severe shortage of left-handers of any description here (and are having to import them.. :tongue: )

Boo

ChubbyHubby
-5th April 2005, 11:24
Originally posted by pigeonmeister


2) I agree that for a lot of us the straight attacks are the main problem. But I don't, having read fairly widely, think that people like Cassara, Guyart and Kruse that this is the main problem. If you read Kruse's interview in the Scotsmen (or some scottish paper I can't remember) he makes no mention of straight attacks not registering but explicitely laments the decline of the flick. They are arguing about the whole tactical and dynamic nature of fencing as a sport and as a spectacle being changed, the technical imperfections are just another fault of a system they oppose for the kind of fencing it delivers (not just its inconsistencies).


I read that Kruse article too. Don't get me wrong, I agree most competitive fencers would rather have the old timings back, but like I said to you months ago, us jumping up and down won't do any good. It's not as if RR and his jolly crew will listen.

Alan
-5th April 2005, 11:47
[QUOTE I still can't see the sport returning to the fencing we saw for the last time at the olympics[/QUOTE]

And what was wrong with the foil seen at the Olympics ???

Canis
-5th April 2005, 11:49
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Yeah, how many fat left-handers do you know? We have a severe shortage of left-handers of any description here (and are having to import them.. :tongue: )

Boo

:rolleyes: as a fat left hander myself I gave up fencing with the ******* lovechild of the toothpick and a fly -rod after my opponents kept scoring hits by scraping their points down the centre of my back!:tongue: guess all the rest did too!

Boo Boo
-5th April 2005, 11:55
Originally posted by Alan
[QUOTE I still can't see the sport returning to the fencing we saw for the last time at the olympics

And what was wrong with the foil seen at the Olympics ??? [/QUOTE]

Don't think he is saying that anything is wrong with it, just that he can't see it going back to exactly how it was at the last Olympics...

Boo

Boo Boo
-5th April 2005, 11:56
Originally posted by Canis
:rolleyes: as a fat left hander myself I gave up fencing with the ******* lovechild of the toothpick and a fly -rod after my opponents kept scoring hits by scraping their points down the centre of my back!:tongue: guess all the rest did too!

Hey, please take up foil again and move down here :)

Boo

Canis
-5th April 2005, 12:06
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Hey, please take up foil again and move down here :)

Boo

Down here ? I fence in kent( admittedly north kent/ london)

Anyway, no can do, having too much fun hiting sabreurs with old fashioned repostes :)

pigeonmeister
-5th April 2005, 13:00
Originally posted by Alan
[QUOTE I still can't see the sport returning to the fencing we saw for the last time at the olympics

And what was wrong with the foil seen at the Olympics ??? [/QUOTE]


Sorry seems to be a communication problem but, as Boo kindly states, I don't think that anything was wrong with the foil seen at the olympics and would be popping the champagne if we could return to it. Yet I have long since given up on that actually happening so I am trying to adapt whilst hoping the inconsistencies are eradicated. It would be nice to know where we stand though, I don't want to have to wait til september.

Boo- sadly we have a supply of left handers in the form of the Melia brothers, who are unfortunately about as far from bunnies and fat as you can get. In fact I think Minimelia's target area is about the same as a small pygmy. Oh and there is Sam Stockley who's a bit tasty and not exactly fat either! Even the coach (Mike W) is left handed.

Arturo
-5th April 2005, 15:47
Boo, I'd gladly export some of the Hungarian lefties from my club. It seems that every 2nd fight I have is with a kak-hander.

Boo Boo
-5th April 2005, 19:30
Originally posted by Arturo
Boo, I'd gladly export some of the Hungarian lefties from my club. It seems that every 2nd fight I have is with a kak-hander.

Post them over please!

Boo

Boo Boo
-5th April 2005, 19:33
Originally posted by Canis
Down here ? I fence in kent( admittedly north kent/ london

Down here to the west...? :oops

Boo
(thinks it has been a while since studying A-level Geography... :whistle: )

uk_45
-5th April 2005, 21:24
Ok this was adressed before in this thread but I couldn't find a plain answer. Are clubs going to have to pay to get boxes changed again?

Thanks
Tom

rpryer
-5th April 2005, 21:51
Originally posted by uk_45
Ok this was adressed before in this thread but I couldn't find a plain answer. Are clubs going to have to pay to get boxes changed again?

Thanks
Tom

If the timings change again, then boxes will have to be changed - unless we just wait for things to settle down in a few years' time.

uk_45
-5th April 2005, 21:58
Yep ahh well, we a love the FIE, on toast!

Alan
-11th April 2005, 14:14
So anybody got some news on these new test timings in September ?

dilznik
-11th April 2005, 15:14
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Yeah, how many fat left-handers do you know? We have a severe shortage of left-handers of any description here

When I was fencing in Munich, I never learned to fence against lefties because in the entire city, out of 8-10 clubs, there were only about 5 lefty fencers that ever fenced in tournies. My club had one decent lefty fencer, and I'm using "decent" loosely.
I moved to the club I'm at now, and there's nothing but left handed foil fencers. Seriously. The first day I was there, I was so surprised that I blurted out "how can there be so many lefties here, is there a leak in the nuke plant up the road?" Then more people came and they were all lefties, too. At the Christmas tournament, there were ten adult foil fencers, and 3 were righties. If the guys that fenced both epee and foil had fenced foil, it would've added two more lefties.
But now I can't fence against right handed people.

reposte
-11th April 2005, 15:40
Actually, our club is very lucky in that respect, the top fencer is a left hander and out of the medium ages, which will build the future kader, there are 2 - 3 left handers, which are the top of their class, so we have a very decent leftist poul...

Neo
-27th April 2005, 04:10
Originally posted by pigeonmeister
1) My flicks tended to be a sweeping/collecting cicular parry (as late as possible) followed by a snapping of my wrist to flick the point on. As this was nearly always a one light situation I can't see how the block-out timing would be relevant now and most of my flicks that have worked have come from this action against weaker opposition (generally) I think I was more more of a pinger than a thudder so will try 'fixing' my wrist with softer hands and use my height to finish high. Yet I still can only see this as possible against those who slide in attacks too low, bending down (i.e bunnies). Against mush better fencers, I could previously use my height and strong wrist to wrap the blade over their shoulder even if they were not stooping. This only needed a beat, not the kind of collecting riposte that naturally finishes with a high hand. I fear that the former is no longer possible as it is not possible to finish high enough so I can see what your saying about it being tactically non viable.

I think the idea of not yanking will work best for me, but could hurt people a tiny bit as I learn to 'thud' not 'ping' as you put it!

I got 3 hits in a row at Birmingham on Leon Shah - stop flicking onto his shoulder as he attacks. It catches on the shoulder so it stays there, thus both ****ing up the attack and as the point sits there the light comes up - one light. (of course, at 4-0 he got pissed off and promptly beat me 5-4 :tongue: )

works nicely against better lefties. (and probably taller ones for that matter)

The blocking time is relevant since here's more chance of a stop-hit or counter attack ending in only one light, making a flick a much riskier option - hence why it's less used.

pigeonmeister
-27th April 2005, 09:52
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neo
[B]I got 3 hits in a row at Birmingham on Leon Shah - stop flicking onto his shoulder as he attacks. It catches on the shoulder so it stays there, thus both ****ing up the attack and as the point sits there the light comes up - one light. (of course, at 4-0 he got pissed off and promptly beat me 5-4 :tongue: )

Sounds a dangerous tactic to me, but if it works fair enough. I still find that the majority of flicks I get to work are when my opponent is quite smaller than me, or I jump, or both (in fact I remember scoring one like that against you in the pool at BUSA's!! not that I'd like to dwell.):tongue:

Neo
-27th April 2005, 13:16
Originally posted by pigeonmeister
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neo
[B]Sounds a dangerous tactic to me, but if it works fair enough. I still find that the majority of flicks I get to work are when my opponent is quite smaller than me, or I jump, or both (in fact I remember scoring one like that against you in the pool at BUSA's!! not that I'd like to dwell.):tongue:

ah yes. By that point my brain had gone to sleep. but hey u nicked that tactic from meh!

but on a more serious note, if it works it works, but if it doesn't, just don't do it :)