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kingkenny
-23rd June 2003, 11:50
See news

Congratulations to Richard Kruse for coming third in the World Cup in Cuba. This is another stunning result for Richard.

http://www.inder.co.cu/indernet/competencias/Sinfo/EsgVillaHabana2003/ESGMenu.htm

kingkenny
-23rd June 2003, 12:11
Laurance where were you?

Hudson
-23rd June 2003, 16:48
ain't he still down under in the lad of the Kangaroo?

doobarz
-23rd June 2003, 18:13
For some reason I can't access that page - well I cna, but I just get a grinning symbol?????

Are my browser settings wrong or something?

haggis
-23rd June 2003, 19:00
Tried having a look for results on the fechten.de page with its quirky translations and looks like Richard made last 4, lost 15-14 to Peter Joppich and was disqualified for unsporting behaviour. I might be misreading it because the translation's weird and my German's too rubbish to understnad the original but that's how it looks. Very sad if it's right though:(

Check this link if your German's half-way competent:
http://www.fechten.de/deu/modules.php?name=sbnews&file=article&sid=1743

reposte
-23rd June 2003, 20:13
O dear, did he throw his mask?

twohappyhippos
-23rd June 2003, 21:03
Finale: Peter Joppich (Koblenz) - Hangxiong Wu (China) 15:10
Halbfinals: Peter Joppich (Koblenz) - Richard Krause (GBR) 15:14 (schwarze
Karte für Krause - nachträglich disqualifiziert wegen unsportlichen
Verhaltens)

says that Richard got black carded, and in addition to the black card, he got disqualified for unsports like behaviour.

nice to know my german came in handy.

twohappyhippos
-23rd June 2003, 21:04
oh and that the 3rd place that he should have got, remains free.

Hudson
-23rd June 2003, 21:09
it say why he got black carded? as in what was his act of un sports like behaviour?

doobarz
-23rd June 2003, 21:30
Have just looked at the translated version of the site (accessable through the main page) and it wasn't much help.

I guess we will be told in time...

3 Card Trick
-23rd June 2003, 21:44
Sadly Richard has been disqualified on the ground of "unsportsmanlike behaviour" after receiving a Black Card from the referee at the end of his semi-final with Peter Joppich.

For the present this leaves his position in the results of the competition vacant.

As there is likely to be an appeal it is probably prudent to curtail discussion of this unfortunate event pending further developments.

Leaving the issue of the card apart this is another brilliant performance from Richard.

doobarz
-23rd June 2003, 22:03
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick

As there is likely to be an appeal it is probably prudent to curtail discussion of this unfortunate event pending further developments.

Leaving the issue of the card apart this is another brilliant performance from Richard.

Agreed - congratulations to him and his coach.

haggis
-24th June 2003, 00:45
Results are back on the Cuban website and Richard's 3rd= appears to stand. Presumably the appeal was sucessful. Good newsand a great result (beat Pichon (BEL) in L64 15-11, Wessels (GER) in L32 15-14, Coutant (FRA) in L16 15-13, Park (KOR) in L8 15-9, lost to Joppich (GER) in L4, 15-14. Joppich beat Wu (CHN) in final 15-10 )

3 Card Trick
-24th June 2003, 10:55
Not sure appeal will have been heard yet and FIE result site doesn't credit Richard with any points yet.

reposte
-24th June 2003, 11:30
Might one inquire into the circumstances of the black card?

Sasori
-24th June 2003, 12:13
I heard, completely unofficially, it was because he had a bit of a dissagreement with the president after the fight...

Gav
-24th June 2003, 12:35
Does anyone out there hace a more complete description of the events?

Good finish for Kruse but he shouldn't have lost it.

reposte
-24th June 2003, 13:17
Can they introduce you with a card outside strip time?

3 Card Trick
-24th June 2003, 14:39
Yes.

Mantis
-24th June 2003, 15:04
I believe that you can get a black card even if you are not fencing.

3 Card Trick
-24th June 2003, 15:52
If you are present at a competition then you are subject to the Rules. Technically if you are not fencing, or with a team as captain etc. you don't get a Red or Black card as the offence is seperaate to the Red/Black card penaltyfor fencers. However for the sake of good order the spectator, coach or fencer not actually fencing who is disturbing the order of the competition is shown a Red or Black card.

DonnCarnage
-24th June 2003, 18:49
FLIPPING NICE!!!!

Got to be one of Britains best result for decades!!!!

Nice going

Looks like u would have beaten the Chinese guy in the final if u beaten Jopich!!!

BTW...apeal won

DC:pirate:

DonnCarnage
-24th June 2003, 19:02
Actually i dont know if the apeal was won

DC:pirate:

Mischa
-24th June 2003, 19:05
Then why did you say it was?

haggis
-24th June 2003, 19:23
Starting to look bad. Results on FIE site have 4th place blank and Richard not credited with result on Rankings. Does anybody (3 Card Trick?) know when the appeal is likely to be heard? Today, weeks away?

3 Card Trick
-24th June 2003, 19:59
Any appeal will have to go through the proper channels and is unlikely to be heard in any hurry.

The FIE have a disciplinary code which is set out in Chapter VII of the FIE Statutes.

This provides that the "complaint" must be notified to the FIE within 20 days.

The FIE then sends the "complaint" to the President of the Disciplinary Commission within a further 15 days. The President must apoint three members of the Disciplinary Commission to deal with the complaint within 15 days of receiving it. The three members must be neutral to the complaint, so in this case, no Cubans, Poles, or Brits. And so on and so on......

Basically all the evidence in support of the complaint goes in, it then gets served on the person complained of. He gets a right to submit documentation, there can be a hearing etc etc.

So don't expect this to be over quickly.

As this is likely to be a hot potatoe that needs sensitive handling I repeat my suggestion that comments on the specifics of this matter may well not help Richard.

However I hope the above explains the wheels of justice that are now slowly in motion.

reposte
-24th June 2003, 20:19
Are you all ignoring the circumstances because you don't know or is it bad form to discuss it and I haven't picked it up?

3 Card Trick
-24th June 2003, 20:21
Originally posted by reposte
Are you all ignoring the circumstances because you don't know or is it bad form to discuss it and I haven't picked it up?

It isn't helpful to deal with the specifics of a "complaint" in public whilst it is the subject of appeal.

3 Card Trick
-24th June 2003, 20:30
Procedure in the case of a black card

When a black card is awarded at an international
competition organised under the aegis of the F.I.E., it
shall be reported within 10 days, to the president of
the F.I.E., who assesses the appropriateness of
prosecuting before the Disciplinary Panel the offence
which led to the penalty of the black card. Depending
upon the severity of the offence committed, he will
then send the report made by the F.I.E. observer or by
the Directoire Technique to the president of the
Commission, requesting them to establish a
Disciplinary Panel.

Hope this is clearer than my previous rambling.

Hudson
-24th June 2003, 20:49
if the black card is upheld what could he be looking?

Rdb811
-24th June 2003, 22:16
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick
However for the sake of good order the spectator, coach or fencer not actually fencing who is disturbing the order of the competition is shown a Red or Black card.

e.g.throwing a wobbly at the organisers.

PM1
-25th June 2003, 00:12
I know we are all interested in this - whilst dead chuffed at the sucess on the piste, all is not yet won - or lost - so I'm with 3CT: let's button it for the time being. I've no doubt we'll hear the full story in due course, but I do think it's better for Richard if we don't discucc it further here: sub judice is a good phrase for us lawyers to fall back on. Comments on here cud inadvertently go elsewhere.

Thanks for the explanations, 3CT. Expert as ever..

My fingers are crossed and therefore can't type anymor....

Arturo
-25th June 2003, 09:11
Does anyone really think that the FIE hierachy read this forum? If they did, does anyone think they would give a toss what we all say?

How many black card appeals actually get overturned? Don't know the Kruse chappy from Adam, but it would seem a shame for him to be a baw-hair (excuse the weegieness) away from the final only to lose his bronze. I think I could understand why he would lose his cool (if that's what happened) after losing 15-14 in the semi.

Think I would have ripped my opponents head off and kicked it across the hall instead of my mask.

PM1
-25th June 2003, 19:07
Arturo - isn't it better not to run the risk?? Ive very little idea who ANYone is on this forum. You've heard of "surfing", i'm sure. Iend up on all sorts of sites.

Whose to say.........I just wish him all the luck available...

Mischa
-26th June 2003, 21:27
You do?

Maybe he deserved the black card...

I hope he didn't, and I hope it gets rescinded, but you never know...

Laurence
-15th July 2003, 16:00
well, i'll put a stop to these rumours. richard finished the fight, said ' thats bollocks' to himself at the end of the fight and the referee thought he'd said something about the polish(it was a polish ref'.)
they tried to appeal, but roch, being the coch that he is, said that he would ban richard if they did appeal. so all is lost.
he doesn't get any further punishment after the card tho.
bloody polish. evil *****.

Marcos
-15th July 2003, 16:18
what have the Polish ever given the world, eh?

rory
-15th July 2003, 16:33
Shiny shoes?

sorry

reposte
-15th July 2003, 17:02
To those who arenät privy to British international manschaft circuit, who is Roch and why would he bann Kruise if he appealed?

The Poilsh, I think, gave the world some good fencers, nothing to the contribution of GB in the area though....

Marry Kurie, Chopin... neither fenced but still, good Poles...

haggis
-15th July 2003, 18:23
Originally posted by reposte
To those who arenät privy to British international manschaft circuit, who is Roch and why would he bann Kruise if he appealed?


Rene Roch - president of FIE. Laurence's opinion of him is pretty well spot on.

reposte
-15th July 2003, 18:47
what right does he have to bann a fencer who wishes to apply the code? Or am I being too naive for an Israeli?

rory
-16th July 2003, 09:23
Whether he could actually have done it is a matter subject to the Rules. However, pissing off the President of the FIE is certainly a very good way of making your career on the Internation circuit harder.

Sophie
-4th September 2003, 12:56
Not sure if I'm aloud to mention this yet

The FIE website seems to have been updated (see post in "chit-chat") and can be viewed in English at www.fie.ch

In the results for the world cup in Havana there is no =3rd or 4th place mentioned.

Do we assume that a decision has been reached??:spin:

Boo Boo
-4th September 2003, 13:19
Assume that we are not supposed to talk about this either, but I assume that you are correct.

This is interesting in light of Richard's Bio at:
- http://www.busa.org.uk/DisplayPage.asp?pageid=2491

Boo