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UglyBug
-21st July 2005, 12:58
When is the World Universiade? BFA Calendar says it is on as we speak, but I can't find anything anywhere

UglyBug
-21st July 2005, 12:59
Where is Doobarz with his useful link to the relevant website?

rpryer
-21st July 2005, 13:12
Not Doobarz, but the official site is here (http://www.universiadeizmir.org/en/). The games start August 11.

doobarz
-21st July 2005, 13:48
Originally posted by UglyBug
Where is Doobarz with his useful link to the relevant website?

See, it hasn't started yet...

silvercross
-28th July 2005, 15:43
Out of general curiosity, how are the members of the GBR team selected?
I remember being at the BUSA individuals, and none of the male foilists who finished in the top 3 were mentioned on the list of those selected. I know one is Russian (Izotov), but It seems odd that someone like Corin Beck wins the individual tournament and doesn't get called to represent the games? (that there are also no epeeists going is a good question)

Boo Boo
-28th July 2005, 16:27
Originally posted by silvercross
Out of general curiosity, how are the members of the GBR team selected?
I remember being at the BUSA individuals, and none of the male foilists who finished in the top 3 were mentioned on the list of those selected. I know one is Russian (Izotov), but It seems odd that someone like Corin Beck wins the individual tournament and doesn't get called to represent the games? (that there are also no epeeists going is a good question)

Selection is nothing to do with the BUSA championships.

Selection is (supposedly) based on people getting a L16 at a Senior A-grade (although I din't think that is actually written down anywhere within the BFA's selection rules...). Corin hasn't got a L16 at a senior A-grade (neither do 3 out of the 4 male foilists going, but those 3 are going at the selectors' discretion...).

Boo

Threestain
-28th July 2005, 16:59
no they are going because they achieved a last 8 in the team at a world cup event. i.e. they were part of that team.

Boo Boo
-28th July 2005, 17:39
Originally posted by Threestain
no they are going because they achieved a last 8 in the team at a world cup event. i.e. they were part of that team.

Which World Cup? According to the FIE team rankings, GB Men's Foil team got the following results this past season:
- Havana 14th
- Cairo 12th
- Shanghai 9th
- Paris 17th

If a L16 qualified a team for the team event, then just about all weapons would qualify a team (assuming the enough team members were a student and of the right age...) except for women's epee.

Am not criticising the team going - think they should/could do well :). Am just ciriticising the lack of published selection criteria for the WSG - things even less transparent than normal...

When the ranking rules are updated, maybe they could add criteria for the World Student Games (although I know it doesn't run next year, maybe it is worth keeping it in for completeness and to ensure it isn't forgotten for the seasons that the WSG does run...).

Boo

monobrow
-28th July 2005, 18:04
i think the mf team got an 8 at the europeans too, loosing narrowly to italy. the team there included 3/4 of the selected fencers for wugs.

Boo Boo
-28th July 2005, 18:14
Originally posted by monobrow
i think the mf team got an 8 at the europeans too, loosing narrowly to italy. the team there included 3/4 of the selected fencers for wugs.

Ok, that explains it - Europeans, not world cup...

Still, would be good to have some WSG/WUG selection criteria written down...

Any idea why we are not sending a WS team? They have a last 8 in a world cup.

Boo

silvercross
-29th July 2005, 08:01
Well, it would certainly be a good idea to post the selection criteria for the WUG so that it does have greater transparency.

Still, though, you have to wonder then, why give the BUSA season such a push if all the hard work isn't rewarded by being given consideration for the WUG. The whole point of a WUG is that the best student athletes who compete for their universities should go (I'm not completely naive. I know that will never be the way things work), not the best athletes who also happen to be students at a university.

I am curious as to why no WS or ME got selected to go. We certainly have enough talent in that respect to put up two very good teams...

UglyBug
-29th July 2005, 08:26
LBW is on the list for WS

BUSA can't be used for selection. This is because there is only one day of competition in the season for BUSA individual competition which monobrow didn't win this year. However, he is GBR no. 1, getting good overseas results, which will be why he is selected. This indicates a season of good performance and it would be daft if this was not considered in preference to one day.

Insipiens
-29th July 2005, 08:29
I am very pleased to tell you that you have been recommended for selection by BUSA for the British team at the World University Games in Turkey, this August. Congratulations - I am really delighted that we are able to send such a good team to the Games. I think that you all have the potential to do very well and I wish you every success both individually and for the Mens Foil Team.
The above is taken from the BFA website signed by Graham Watts.

It suggests that BUSA has some say in the selection which seems highly unlikely and really not appropriate if you want to get the best student fencers.

ChubbyHubby
-29th July 2005, 08:53
Originally posted by Insipiens
It suggests that BUSA has some say in the selection which seems highly unlikely and really not appropriate if you want to get the best student fencers.

I think BUSA has to approve of the recommended selections.


Originally posted by Insipiens
Still, though, you have to wonder then, why give the BUSA season such a push if all the hard work isn't rewarded by being given consideration for the WUG.
Is the BUSA "season" not just one event? I know there are team matches etc, but you can't select individuals from those.


Originally posted by Insipiens
The whole point of a WUG is that the best student athletes who compete for their universities should go (I'm not completely naive. I know that will never be the way things work), not the best athletes who also happen to be students at a university.

Actually, in countries like Italy it is more like the best fencers who they can find an excuse to classify as a student. The only real restriction is that you have to be no older than 28 years old.

Boo Boo
-29th July 2005, 09:39
Originally posted by silvercross
Still, though, you have to wonder then, why give the BUSA season such a push if all the hard work isn't rewarded by being given consideration for the WUG.

The BUSA season has a lot going for it - it is a very social event and gives many people (who maybe wouldn't otherwise do many competitions/open) the opportunity to compete.

People who compete at BUSA get the opportunity to represent theiir university and a good result may lead to a university colour/blue or a bursary or something.


Originally posted by silvercross
The whole point of a WUG is that the best student athletes who compete for their universities should go (I'm not completely naive. I know that will never be the way things work), not the best athletes who also happen to be students at a university.

The list on the BFA website is impressive - they are the best student athletes and should go. You can't select people on one competition (the BUSAs) - anyone can have a bad day and some people may not be able to attend that one competition. It would be a bit like saying the top 4 finishers at the British Champs should make up our World Championships team - selection should show consistency over 12 months.

I know some fencers who receive/received funding/bursaries from their universities, but didn't represent their universities at BUSA (individual or team)...

My queries regarding selection, as normal, centre around how the athletes were selected (or not selected) - I was very surprised not to see people like Threestain, Jessica Lacheta, Chrystall Nicoll (I think that people qualify immediately before they start on a university course) etc.etc. Of course, these people may have been selected and may not be able to go... It wouldn't hurt to send full teams, of course... (although how much BUSA would restrict who is selected, I don't know). Not having any published selection criteria does not help to clear this up...

I wonder how people are selected for other BUSA sports? That would be interesting.

Boo

silvercross
-29th July 2005, 10:26
I agree with finding out how the selection is done, and more importantly how the committee decides whether or not to send entire teams for each weapon.

Why men's foil gets to be the only weapon that gets a full team sent, for example, would be a good question.

Is it merely due to funding, or availability of student athletes?

I do not dissagree with the list of athletes going, inasmuch as they are a formidable group of fencers (Neither do I dissagree with fencers pursuing a full season in BUSA. I rather enjoyed last season). It would be nice, however, if there would be some notice of how the selection process is carried out. BUSA does state in their webpage:

'The British Universities Sports Association (BUSA) is the governing body of university sport, running national competitions in 47 sports from Athletics to Windsurfing, and co-ordinating the Great Britain representative teams for the World University Games and World University Championships.'

I am pretty sure the selection process is buried somewhere in the minutes of the International Committee of BUSA, though i've perused through some of the pages but found nothing clear about it, save that BFA nominates the coach.

Boo Boo
-29th July 2005, 10:38
It is buried on the BUSA website - http://www.busa.org.uk/core_files/Fencing%20Selection%20Policy.doc (although don't know how long it has been there).

Boo

Threestain
-29th July 2005, 11:30
Also bear in mind that the international standard fencer's season is already over-populated with competitions - domestics and foreigns all the time. Frankly, and I know I'm being harsh here but I have to be, if you sent half of the higher finishers in the BUSA individuals to a small foreign comp, let alone the 2nd biggest event in the world, they would get absolutely destroyed. Also remember that competing in the BUSA team matches can be bad for timing and also prevents people having time off from their main sport to play a different one (like I try to with hockey).

Some of the events in the WUG have incredible GB teams - for example the swimming was amazing last time. However, other teams do not have the same depth/had a bad games last time. For example the volleyball didn't do very well. Not sure how well the football team did, but as with the olympics that's a very tricky sport to do in such games.

Why shouldn't the GB team be the best atheletes that happen to be at university? Are we strong enoughas a nation in sport to compete with other countries that have sports universities without doing so?

Threestain
-29th July 2005, 11:34
And if you read the document it shows exactly why the men's foil team qualified.

Obviously the standard is high due to the nature of the games, though it may have to adjusted now (following the loss of many a-grades)

randomsabreur
-29th July 2005, 12:48
Rats, I was 3 hits off making it at the WS A-grade - I finished my last bit of full time education just late enough!

But, to be fair I wouldn't have done well and I have no idea where I would have found enough holiday!

pigeonmeister
-29th July 2005, 14:20
Originally posted by Threestain
Frankly, and I know I'm being harsh here but I have to be, if you sent half of the higher finishers in the BUSA individuals to a small foreign comp, let alone the 2nd biggest event in the world, they would get absolutely destroyed. Also remember that competing in the BUSA team matches can be bad for timing and also prevents people having time off from their main sport to play a different one (like I try to with hockey).


As someone who finished very well at the individs (higher even than the only 1 of the WSG mens foil team who entered- LH) I am under no pretense that I am in the same league as our team. You can't use the BUSA individs or team as selection criteria for such an enormous comp, I wish they could. It is harsh on Beck, he is a terrific fencer and has won the MF for last 3 years, destroying Halsted in L8 last year. Kruse was down to enter the individs but didn't bother, I didn't even know Mansour or Rowe were students. I don't understand why, if you just need to be U28 and not a student, why no Riseley?

The bottom line is that they have correctly picked IMHO the 4 best foilists in the UK except Risley and Beevers (who will just have to console themselves with a spot on the World Championships team). I suppose Riseley is too young and Beevers too old?

randomsabreur
-29th July 2005, 14:37
I think that there should be some kind of requirement to have represented your university in BUSA unless you have a good reason not to, such as the fact that your uni doesn't have a team. It is not that much of a committment to do it once, for an important match or something. LBW fenced for Birmingham in a team match or two at foil while I was there. One Wednesday isn't all that much time to give

pigeonmeister
-29th July 2005, 14:48
I agree and to be fair Halsted did enter the individs and fenced for Sussex a few times. I think Kruse fenced for his uni at least once and would, strictly, have to have been a member of his uni club in order to be entered into the individs (even if he didn't turn up). Mansour and Rowe confuses me, I don't know if they are starting in September but I am sure that they have never fenced for a university team before. I could be wrong though. Stil if everyone else is taking there strongest team regardless of representing their uni, then fair enough.

Boo Boo
-29th July 2005, 14:52
Originally posted by Threestain
And if you read the document it shows exactly why the men's foil team qualified.

Yes, I can see that now :)

Still think that there should be some note of the selection criteria (or, at the least, cross-reference to them) for the WSG in the main ranking rules...

Still think it is odd that some people (students) are selected for the World Champs, but not for the WSG/WUG.... (the selection criteria are basically the same). But I guess there are reasons.

Boo

Threestain
-29th July 2005, 16:04
Originally posted by pigeonmeister
I agree and to be fair Halsted did enter the individs and fenced for Sussex a few times. I think Kruse fenced for his uni at least once and would, strictly, have to have been a member of his uni club in order to be entered into the individs (even if he didn't turn up). Mansour and Rowe confuses me, I don't know if they are starting in September but I am sure that they have never fenced for a university team before. I could be wrong though. Stil if everyone else is taking there strongest team regardless of representing their uni, then fair enough.

Both have just finished university. You have a one year grace period anyway (which is why I would be eligible in 2007 despite finishing in 2006).

Riseley is not a student and therefore does not qualify.

Threestain
-29th July 2005, 16:04
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Yes, I can see that now :)

Still think that there should be some note of the selection criteria (or, at the least, cross-reference to them) for the WSG in the main ranking rules...

Still think it is odd that some people (students) are selected for the World Champs, but not for the WSG/WUG.... (the selection criteria are basically the same). But I guess there are reasons.

Boo

No discretion. And the criteria is actually harder (or has been until now).

Boo Boo
-29th July 2005, 16:14
Originally posted by Threestain
No discretion. And the criteria is actually harder (or has been until now).

Yes there is, Neil Hutchison doesn't have a L16 in an A-grade - or am I missing something (again...)

Boo

silvercross
-29th July 2005, 16:51
Is it me, or is this getting curioser and curioser?

To be fair, I never chose to write the comments to slag off about any one fencer, and like I said before, I still think the team entered is a fantastic one, but wouldn't it be a bit more interesting if you make the criteria of elligibility known at the beginning of the academic year? Wouldn't that make some of the potential team members want to be a bit more competitive about it?

After all, if it is the second largest fencing event (well, third, we do have to count the Olympics), then shouldn't it be a reason for there to be a large amount of us duking it out to have a shot at it? (well, those of us who are elligible to represent GBR anyways).

And again, what happened to the epeeists? No one cares about us...:(

Boo Boo
-29th July 2005, 17:09
Originally posted by silvercross
wouldn't it be a bit more interesting if you make the criteria of elligibility known at the beginning of the academic year? Wouldn't that make some of the potential team members want to be a bit more competitive about it?

Not sure when those selection details appeared on the BUSA website - they could have been there for a year...

Still, it would be good to have some information regarding the WUG eligibility/selection criteria on the main BFA site - to draw people's attention to it... (maybe when they redo the site...)

Think that most of the potential team members are very competitive about it anyway - it tends to be the same people who are chasing World Championship selection (so are chasing around A-grades looking for that L16 anyway...).

Boo

ChubbyHubby
-29th July 2005, 17:13
Originally posted by silvercross

After all, if it is the second largest fencing event (well, third, we do have to count the Olympics), then shouldn't it be a reason for there to be a large amount of us duking it out to have a shot at it? (well, those of us who are elligible to represent GBR anyways).


It's the second largest "sports" event to the Olympics. In terms of numbers fencing in the Olympics is actually smaller than the average local open.

As for "a large amount of us duking it out to have a shot", it's never been the case of competing against each other to get a place on the team.

It's about getting the qualification requirements - which there aren't actually that many fencers in the country who are capable of. The average Uni BUSA fencer certainly doesn't have a chance of getting the requirements.

That's why only a very small number of the top fencers in the UK have made it.

So first you have to be at the top of the domestic rankings to go to the A-grades etc required, in order to have the chance to qualify.