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Winwaloe
-21st July 2005, 14:03
have asked these questions, with no response, in other threads so decided to start a new one.

1) BAF were advised by legal types not to demand a first aid certificate on grounds that little knowledge is worse than none - Has the BFA/English Fencing resolved this issue?

2) How do the new EF coaching grades compare with the previous BFA grades?

Quite serious questions really so hope that the great and good out there will come up with serious answers because it effects rather a lot of us/you!

Winwaloe
-27th July 2005, 17:10
Does the lack of response meant that:

1) No one knows the answer
2) No one cares about the answer
3) No one appreciates how vital the first question is
4) Everyone has gone on holiday

rpryer
-27th July 2005, 17:39
allthree has answered on the other thread (http://fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113022#post113022)

Winwaloe
-28th July 2005, 11:55
Originally posted by rpryer
allthree has answered on the other thread (http://fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113022#post113022)


Thanks and noted although I don't think the question re the first aid cert was avoided as opposed answered

Sophie
-28th July 2005, 12:42
Re: First Aid Certificate

If you were a coach running a course in any venue without any other qualified first aider on the premises and a situation occurred which required first aid, if you did not have a certificate and had to provide first aid yourself, I think you would find that your Public Liability Insurance was invalid (if indeed it had not been invalidated already by you not having an appropriate first aid qualification).

So - first aid certificate is not necessarily there to show that you are competent (I am sure that there are countless people out there competent in providing first aid with or without having any sort of qualification), but simply that in this litigatious (?spelling?) age, it is a requirement of the insurance companies.....

Winwaloe
-28th July 2005, 15:25
Sophie, is this an opinion or an "official" reply? You are quite right to bring up the legal aspect; this is my whole point.
To repeat, it is my understanding that the BAF were told by their legal advisors that they should not make having a first aid certificate as part of the qualifiction requirement. This was based on teh fact that it was better to have no skill and do nothing than little skill and do the wrong thing. What I am trying to discover is whether or not the BFA/EF are aware of this, whether the advice given to the BAF was wrong, whether my understanding is wrong or whether the issue has been resolved. I am sure lots of people with have opinions but I am trying to get the definitive answer.

Sophie
-28th July 2005, 15:46
Not an official reply as I have nothing to do with EF, BF or BAF. Call it an "educated opinion" if you like!

allthree
-12th August 2005, 06:08
Originally posted by Winwaloe
have asked these questions, with no response, in other threads so decided to start a new one.

1) BAF were advised by legal types not to demand a first aid certificate on grounds that little knowledge is worse than none - Has the BFA/English Fencing resolved this issue?

2) How do the new EF coaching grades compare with the previous BFA grades?

Quite serious questions really so hope that the great and good out there will come up with serious answers because it effects rather a lot of us/you!

I have some more information re first aid.

We have just had the required first aid course on my coach education course at Colchester, during which I asked the instructor about litigation problems. His answer was that every time some one has tried to sue, if the first aider tried his/her best to follow their training then it has always been thrown out before court. Also in france and some other countries it is a legal responsibility if you are trained, to try and help someone in need.

With previous BF awards, if there were five levels than the new awards will equate for registration purposes.

Winwaloe
-12th August 2005, 09:03
Thanks for the response. Has the BFA or ENgland Fencing taken legal advice however?

fencingmaster
-13th August 2005, 14:26
We have just had the required first aid course on my coach education course at Colchester,

The 'first aid' course provided at the course was identical to the CPR "Emergency Life Support" course I had previously attended provided by the London Ambulance Service as part of the 'Heartstart' programme. Information on Heartstart can be found here:-

http://www.bhf.org.uk/hearthealth/index.asp?secondlevel=75&thirdlevel=313&artID=5299

an enquiry form for free training is linked to that page.

A valuable life-saving resource, but is it 'first aid' ? Nothing regarding broken bones, penetration, strains, dislocations etc. Has BF clearly defined what it means by 'first aid' as there are several courses available depending on the definition.

In my view the healthy way to treat BF's new coaching programme is as a work in progress.

allthree
-13th August 2005, 18:40
Originally posted by Winwaloe
Thanks for the response. Has the BFA or ENgland Fencing taken legal advice however?

England fencing has and is awaiting the reply. When I know so will you!

Winwaloe
-14th August 2005, 12:06
Originally posted by allthree
England fencing has and is awaiting the reply. When I know so will you!



Thanks again. Apologies for being somewhat pushy on this but is seems to be rather important!

Clare Halsted
-26th August 2005, 07:13
This issue was looked into carefully when the BF safety guidelines were reviewed. Below is the relevant extract from the guidelines (Jan 04) which are on the website. (as you will have seen)
The most helpful and authoritative advice came from the Medical Protection Society and it is incorporated into our guidelines.
The general view was that it is good practice now for all qualified coaches to have appropriate first aid training. Then, as long as they act within their own expertise, they will be doing the expected and right thing.
If anyone has any further, definite, legally-based advice please let me know.


" c) Intervention
1. The official responsible for any fencing activity should ensure that immediate use of a telephone is available in the event of a significant injury.
Remember that the 999 ambulance service will give ongoing advice over the phone if necessary.
2. A doctor has an ethical duty to intervene and do their best. If more than one doctor or para-medic is present, the most appropriately qualified one should obviously take charge.
3. A first-aider appointed for this purpose also has a duty to assist.
4. In the UK, members of the public are not under a legal duty to intervene in an emergency, however, in the absence of anyone qualified, if they do their best, (as judged by the action of the average person in the street), they are extremely unlikely to get into any trouble. So the average club member should have no concerns about helping a fellow fencer following an injury.
5. Coaches may have a duty of care to intervene, (in the absence of anyone qualified), although this is not clear at the time of writing. Again it is extremely unlikely that a successful claim could be made against them as long as they do not act in a reckless manner.
6. Specific first aid advice is no longer included in these Guidelines as anyone assisting with an injury should act according to their own level of expertise. "

allthree
-26th August 2005, 08:28
Originally posted by Clare Halsted
This issue was looked into carefully when the BF safety guidelines were reviewed. Below is the relevant extract from the guidelines (Jan 04) which are on the website. (as you will have seen)
The most helpful and authoritative advice came from the Medical Protection Society and it is incorporated into our guidelines.
The general view was that it is good practice now for all qualified coaches to have appropriate first aid training. Then, as long as they act within their own expertise, they will be doing the expected and right thing.
If anyone has any further, definite, legally-based advice please let me know.


" c) Intervention
1. The official responsible for any fencing activity should ensure that immediate use of a telephone is available in the event of a significant injury.
Remember that the 999 ambulance service will give ongoing advice over the phone if necessary.
2. A doctor has an ethical duty to intervene and do their best. If more than one doctor or para-medic is present, the most appropriately qualified one should obviously take charge.
3. A first-aider appointed for this purpose also has a duty to assist.
4. In the UK, members of the public are not under a legal duty to intervene in an emergency, however, in the absence of anyone qualified, if they do their best, (as judged by the action of the average person in the street), they are extremely unlikely to get into any trouble. So the average club member should have no concerns about helping a fellow fencer following an injury.
5. Coaches may have a duty of care to intervene, (in the absence of anyone qualified), although this is not clear at the time of writing. Again it is extremely unlikely that a successful claim could be made against them as long as they do not act in a reckless manner.
6. Specific first aid advice is no longer included in these Guidelines as anyone assisting with an injury should act according to their own level of expertise. "

These are the "common sence" approach advice that I have always tried to follow as a coach and we used to include an emergency aid cert in the new coaching awards. I think though the original poster was asking ia there a definite legal expert who has said it is definitely ok to use first aid on a fencer who is injured.

Jambo
-26th August 2005, 15:11
Originally posted by Clare Halsted

2. A doctor has an ethical duty to intervene and do their best. If more than one doctor or para-medic is present, the most appropriately qualified one should obviously take charge.


But not a legal one in this country in contrast to elsewhere.

Incidentally the amount taught on first aid courses has steadily decreased over the years as far too many people were doing things, in good faith, that made situations worse.

Nick
-26th August 2005, 18:21
Isn't there some form of disclaimer which a club could get it's fencers to sign saying that they will accept first aid from whoever at the club has a first aid certificate of some discription and in the event of something going wrong they won't sue? make this a requirement for those who wish to fence?

PM1
-26th August 2005, 18:58
You can draft it, because I can't see how anyone can fetter their inalienable rights in that way !! Better to have no disclaimer than one which can be full of loop holes.

(That'll be £ccc pounds please.....;) I'm on leave, you see.....)

Winwaloe
-30th August 2005, 10:00
So no one really seems to have the definitive legal answer. I accept that there is a moral responsibility to help and that a degree of knowledge of first aid is a good thing; that can be taken as read. But, back to the original point. What is the definitive legal viewpoint. I know that there is a least one judge out there, a barrister or two adn probably far too many lawyers. Any learned opinion?

gbm
-31st August 2005, 16:35
Originally posted by Winwaloe
So no one really seems to have the definitive legal answer.

Is that an oxymoron? ;)

Baldric
-31st August 2005, 19:03
There is frequently no definitive answer to a legal question. Eventually there may be a test case, and then there will be precedent - but even this is no guarantee.

If you really press a lawyer hard on any topic involving uncertainty, they will take refuge in "safety" and give you ridiculous, but safe, advice!

gbm
-31st August 2005, 19:32
Probably the most common word in law is 'reasonable'... you will see it everywhere!

Winwaloe
-1st September 2005, 15:19
Originally posted by goodbadandme
Probably the most common word in law is 'reasonable'... you will see it everywhere!


Apart from under "Fees"

Winwaloe
-1st September 2005, 15:21
Originally posted by goodbadandme
Is that an oxymoron? ;)



A sort of epeegramatic statement?