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Aoife
-3rd July 2003, 21:38
Okay... just something that popped up for me recently, and I decided this is the best catagory (I was tied between this and Off Piste).

How many men wear chestguards? (male chestguards that is).

Why/Why not? What are the advantages/disadvantages to wearing/not wearing one?

Thanks.

doobarz
-3rd July 2003, 22:21
I for one don't, but then as a sabreur I don't think it is really nessecary. I know Laszlo Jakab wears one when he is giving lessons - maybe it's more of a coach thing?

Boo Boo
-3rd July 2003, 22:45
I know a couple of coaches who where chest protectors of one type or another, can't think of any fencers that do.

Boo

hokers
-3rd July 2003, 23:28
Nope. Lame, Jacket and plastron yes, but no chest protector. That said I did crack a rib the other week, (very uncomfortable, perhaps it would have helped.

Gav
-4th July 2003, 05:09
I know one - I'll spare his blushes and not name names.

Cheetara
-4th July 2003, 10:12
I know one. Probably a different one to Gav's. I think he started wearing it after an injury, he's an epeeist

Boo Boo
-4th July 2003, 10:18
Knowing how painful it can be when getting hit (foil) THROUGH a chest guard (think that I would currently have cracked ribs myself after last week had not been wearing one), think that all men are very brave.

I also see the state of my husband's chest after he has fenced (foil) each night: he doesn't wear a chest guard - his chest is always covered with foil point sized red marks...

Think that most men who fence foil and epee must regularly take a battering...

Boo

Marcos
-4th July 2003, 11:14
wasn't there a thread of groin protectors a couple of weeks ago?

anyway, in answer to the question, no, but I would wear a chest guard if I did Epee...

...actually if I did Epee it would take some convincing not to wear plate armour

:knight:

Aoife
-4th July 2003, 19:40
wasn't there a thread of groin protectors a couple of weeks ago?

:rolling: oh the memories!

Thanks. I know my coach doens't wear one, but I have some male friends who want to start, and they were asking about them. (we only have female chestguards here- what with it being a girls' school- but I have the feeling that at least one of my friends may well wear one, at least for his first lesson).


I agree fully with BooBoo though; it must really hurt. I've fenced twice without a chestguard and hard hits are certainly uncomfortable!!!!! :eek:

Rdb811
-4th July 2003, 21:01
There is someone at the club who wears one but finds it sweaty. As most epeeist are clumsy oafs I might think about it (esp. if it makes my gut look less prominent).

Gav
-4th July 2003, 21:05
Got to say that not wearing a chest doesn't hurt very much in Epee. Make sure you wear a plastron thought I forgot to put mine on this week and got a couple of reminders why I should wear one of those.

I very rarely get bruises on my chest in Epee - apart from the odd bruised rib.

I never really got badly bruised at Foil. Once a hit has got through my lame, jacket and plastron it didn't hurt a bit.

Cvillefencer
-5th July 2003, 00:10
One of the senior fencers at my club wears one and he likes it a lot. His reasons are two fold I think. The first is that he changes distance very quickly, and likes to hop in and out of range for his attacks and so occasionally gets drilled, and second is that is will keep a glancing point from biting. You pretty much have to hit him dead on, with very little angle on chest shots to get them to bite.

I think they are a bit sweaty, and they do not make them really for my size. I guess it just depends on the person really. I do not mind the occasional bruise. A couple of other fencers at my club, one junior and one senior, are talking about getting them. Maybe they are just starting to catch on! :drink:

bafco
-6th July 2003, 08:18
On another point - does anyone know where one can get a female chest guard that comes lower down the torso? Preferably down to the bottom of the rib cage.

bafco
-6th July 2003, 08:18
On another point - does anyone know where one can get a female chest guard that comes lower down the torso? Preferably down to the bottom of the rib cage.

HSD
-7th July 2003, 16:23
.In ten years I have never felt the need to wear a chest guard. If being hit started to hurt that much, then I think I'd take it as a hint that maybe my parrying and distance awareness need some work. I'm not in the habit of wearing a plastron for foil, epee or sabre, and I certainly can't claim that I have ever been hurt in fencing. Obviously accidents do happen, but anything which would hurt through a jacket would also hurt through a plastron, and anything requiring a chest protector for safety would be lethal if it landed somewhere else (abdomen, for example)

Hudson
-8th July 2003, 01:53
i wear a chest guard when coaching or if i know the guy i'm up against (in any weapon) has a rep for heavy hitting

pinkelephant
-10th July 2003, 22:08
Originally posted by HSD
. I'm not in the habit of wearing a plastron for foil, epee or sabre, and I certainly can't claim that I have ever been hurt in fencing.

Then you are a fool, and are breaking the rules. A plastron is not there to prevent bruising - it is there to prevent a broken blade going through the underarm seam and into the armpit. See the associated thread on plastrons.

ceprab
-11th July 2003, 09:10
Originally posted by HSD
.In ten years I have never felt the need to wear a chest guard. If being hit started to hurt that much, then I think I'd take it as a hint that maybe my parrying and distance awareness need some work. I'm not in the habit of wearing a plastron for foil, epee or sabre, and I certainly can't claim that I have ever been hurt in fencing. Obviously accidents do happen, but anything which would hurt through a jacket would also hurt through a plastron, and anything requiring a chest protector for safety would be lethal if it landed somewhere else (abdomen, for example)

I should point out that this man practises his fleche by hurling himself forwards horizontally without the tedious 'bringing the back leg forward to land on' bit. Not in fights though. ;)

Aside from the comments already made about safety regarding mask and plastron, HSD's point is a good one - I almost always have small yellow marks from an epee point over the right side of my chest and my arm, but wouldn't say I really get hurt ever (not on the chest anyway)

HSD
-13th July 2003, 02:52
Originally posted by pinkelephant
Then you are a fool, and are breaking the rules. A plastron is not there to prevent bruising - it is there to prevent a broken blade going through the underarm seam and into the armpit. See the associated thread on plastrons.

I am breaking no rules, because I do not compete (the rules for club fencing are slightly looser). And I am not a fool either -- it's a calculated risk, certainly, but the chances of a broken blade penetrating a modern jacket are remote to the point of nonexistence. I am aware of the consequences of having a big bit of metal tearing through that nice chunk of nerve and artery in my armpit, but as I have said, in more than 10 years I have never been hurt (and never seen anyone else hurt either, for that matter). And I never mentioned bruising -- I don't know where you got that from -- I said *hurt*, as in damaged, injured, rendered second hand, beyond repair, etc.

pinkelephant
-14th July 2003, 14:19
You are probably invalidating your club's insurance (assuming it is BFA affiliated). Have the club's officers considered this and the possible consequences?

HSD
-14th July 2003, 15:04
Originally posted by pinkelephant
You are probably invalidating your club's insurance (assuming it is BFA affiliated).



It isn't (well, not this year at least).




Have the club's officers considered this and the possible consequences?

We don't have nearly enough plastrons (plastra?) for everyone in the club to have one (we have two or three), serious competing fencer types find themselves having to provide their own. Like I said, I'm not a serious competition fencer type, so I personally don't bother, and never have. So the answer to that is: I doubt it. Donations are always welcome, though.

Marcos
-14th July 2003, 15:22
typical of what happens...

last thursday in an opponents preparation I flesched to octave - opponent then continued attack with the result that my foil snapped in half

what was left of my blade whistled past the opponent and we both shrugged - it was a fairly cheap blade that was broken and no harm done - we always wear plastron, breeches, etc so never any real risk.

the shard that was left was sharp enough tho - no way you'd catch me on the piste without the proper equipment.

no chest guard, but always a plastron - they are only, what, £30?
and that's the good lp ones...

I don;t call that a calculated risk, I call it nuts

HSD
-14th July 2003, 15:31
Originally posted by Marcos
typical of what happens...

the shard that was left was sharp enough tho - no way you'd catch me on the piste without the proper equipment.
no chest guard, but always a plastron - they are only, what, £30?

I don;t call that a calculated risk, I call it nuts

First of all, for the forty to sixty fencers we have to provide kit for (most of them being beginners with no kit), 30 x 50 = 1500 quid, which is more than our budget can stretch to, even if spread over four or five years. Secondly, I have had old, knackered epee blades break against my thigh before. If the jagged end were to penetrate the femural bundle of nerves and arteries, the effects would be no less catastrophic than a blade piercing the corersponding organs behind your arm pit (well, apart from the heart and lungs I suppose), yet I see no one here arguing in favour of bullet proof knickers.

pinkelephant
-15th July 2003, 10:47
Originally posted by HSD
I see no one here arguing in favour of bullet proof knickers.

Well, actually the first 800 N kit was made of Kevlar, which is used in bulletproof jackets.......................

hokers
-15th July 2003, 11:12
I think I can probably weigh in on the side of wearing plastrons here. I have seen a broken blade go through my (old cloth) jacket (fortunately just a flesh wound), and also a broken blade go through someone's breeches (knickers as you might say) so I always wear a plastron, its just not worth risking it.

I hope for your sake that your claim never to have been/seen anyone hurt fencing remains true.

rory
-15th July 2003, 11:32
I'll admit to not wearing a plastron on occasion myself, but I still think it's stupid.


the chances of a broken blade penetrating a modern jacket are remote to the point of nonexistence.

Really? There have been many such incidents. I personally have had an UNbroken blade penetrate the seam of my jacket, and although it didn't come through the (cotton) lining because I turned, it still scared hell out of me.

And what were the chances of a broken blade killing Vladimir Smirnov? It went through his *mask* - and even years ago when it happened, masks were stronger than an 800N jacket is now!

From the BF "GUIDELINES ON SAFETY IN FENCING FOR FENCERS, COACHES, REFEREES, CLUBS AND COMPETITION ORGANISERS" (see website) -
Plastrons should always be worn when fencing.

It's not like the rules can be any more explicit, is it?
(Note: not just for comps, but for club fencing too!)
And if your club's not affiliated with the BF, who's provding the insurance? Have you got a qualified & insured coach on the premises at all times when fencing is taking place?

What *reason* do you have for not wearing a plastron? I presume that if you've been fencing 10 years you have your own kit.

(Quick edit: I realise my tone's a bit snippy above - but if you're an experienced club member, you're setting an example for the beginners, and safety should be of the highest priority)

Gav
-15th July 2003, 11:42
I would say that if I come across HSD in the piste then I will be insisting that he wear a plastron - HSD will also have to accept the relevant penalty. Unlike a box an underplastron is not optional.


HSD, whether you like it or not these are the rules. You do Epee you should know that the reason that the inside of the thigh is rarely hit is because the majority of the hits are on the upper body. And besides you would be unlucky to be hit on the inside of the thigh - it's just not the normal target area.

Speaking as someone who has nearly been skewered twice ,and also nearly skewered a couple of people, then I think, that for the price, an underplastron is a good investment.

Providing them for beginners is a seperate matter.

3 Card Trick
-15th July 2003, 12:41
On the knotty subject of plastrons can I just quote from the BFA Safety Guidelines:

"c) Plastrons: These should be of a double thickness material with no seams under the armpit, and they should not be attached to the jacket in any way. A simple under-jacket or T-shirt is not sufficient. Plastrons should always be worn when fencing. "

I don't accept that a club which has a policy now publicly aired of "doing without" plastrons is going to be fully covered under the insurance policy.

Bear in mind that if an accident were to occur at a club which has publicly declared that it does not think plastrons are necessary the insurers have all the excuse they need to decline cover.

In the event of cover being declined the officers of the club in question might well find themselves personally liable for the damages.

Cvillefencer
-15th July 2003, 13:21
Hey all. Again, speaking only for this side of the pond, the vast majority of fencers that I know of in the states do not us a plastron unless they have begun fencing in competition. For that matter a lot of them do not have electric or Maraging weapons or breeches until they compete either.

Our club here in Cville is a dedicated competition club so we try to encourage the full kit, as we tend to go at it in a very intense manner. In fact the hard chest protectors for men are becoming more and more common at our club with three people having them and two planning on buying them!

As to the cost of plastrons, I would suggest you shop around. We have club deals worked out with a lot of stateside vendors, and we get our club plastrons, which are 2 layers of a dense weave nylon, for $16 US, and then get a twenty percent discount on the entire order. I would expect your clubs could do the same if you talk to Amanda at Blue Gauntlet or Matilda at Physical Chess about opening a club account. Barry and LP may very well offer some kind of club program as well, but I do not know.

So the long and short of my thoughts are that you are all being a bit hard on HSD. He is just doing what thousands of non-competition fencers do in the states every day. Which is not wearing a plastron unless they are in a tourney. Having said that we do strongly recommend it to all of our beginning fencers, and most clubs I know do the same. They just do not go any further than to suggest it.

I have been injured with broken blades bad enough to draw blood exactly twice and I was wearing a plastron both times! Once the blade hit and broke right at the bend of my left leg and waist and then went under my jacket to drag up my stomach and leave a really cool slash (I still have a bit of a scar), and the other was a blade break on a very hard attack that I parried to my thigh. As he was coming in the fellow lost his balance and pretty much dived into me causing his blade to break and pushing it though my nickers. No scar though :( .

So I do not think that HSD is nuts. Fencing is a martial and injuries will happen. You can embrace fate with a warrior’s grin or you can try to cheat it with all the technology you can wrap around yourself. It is really a matter of style! Of course this is from a guy who practices Kendo with no armor except for kote and kabuto/mempo. Kendo Armor slows me down, and not having any is a great incentive to not get hit! :) :drink:

HSD
-15th July 2003, 13:33
Originally posted by Gav
I would say that if I come across HSD in the piste then I will be insisting that he wear a plastron - HSD will also have to accept the relevant penalty. Unlike a box an underplastron is not optional.



You won't find me on piste. I don't *do* competitive fencing. Infact, I do very little fencing at all these days.




HSD, whether you like it or not these are the rules. You do Epee you should know that the reason that the inside of the thigh is rarely hit is because the majority of the hits are on the upper body.



I don't plan to argue further on this subject; there seems little point. I would like t say though, that my weapon of choice on those occasions where I *do* fence is sabre, where attacks to the armput rarely happen, because the majority of the hits are on the wrist and top of the mask, with the edge of the blade.




Speaking as someone who has nearly been skewered twice ,and also nearly skewered a couple of people, then I think, that for the price, an underplastron is a good investment.



If I done enough fencing to justify the expense, I'm sure I'd own my own kit, and if I owned my own kit, I'd own *everything*. As it happens, I don't.

HSD
-15th July 2003, 13:51
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick
On the knotty subject of plastrons can I just quote from the BFA Safety Guidelines:



Guidelines? Not rules?




"c) Plastrons: These should be of a double thickness material with no seams under the armpit, and they should not be attached to the jacket in any way. A simple under-jacket or T-shirt is not sufficient. Plastrons should always be worn when fencing. "

I don't accept that a club which has a policy now publicly aired of "doing without" plastrons is going to be fully covered under the insurance policy.




Don't mistake *my* point of view with my *club's* policy. Most beginners leave within the first two months (which equates to less than 20 hours). The club provides rule-conforming masks, jackets and gloves. The club insists that all fencers (including beginners, who we start on foil (doesn't everybody?)) are wearing suitable footwear and trousers, it's not unheard of for people who turn up with shorts to be sent away again. Any beginners who stay with the club for more than six months are strongly encouraged by the club to buy their own kit (piece by piece, as a result of the expense). Anybody who buys their own kit is *strongly* advised to invest in a plastron. Anybody who wishes to compete is told they will *need* a plastron. Even when they ask me, because when I'm speaking for the club I toe the line.

rory
-15th July 2003, 14:09
I believe the problem here is that although they're called "Guidelines", they're the set of instructions that define what is and is not acceptable behaviour in a fencing salle.
These instructions are used by the BF insurers to determine whether an injured person is covered.

Therefore, not obeying guidelines->not insured, as far as I can see (and I'm not an expert). Where does your "20 hours" figure come from and what does is signify? There seems to be no mention of it in the Guidelines.

To summarise - as far as the Guidleines state, (ie as far as the insurers!) there is no difference between Club and Competition.
Saying "but I only fence in the club" is no defence - no plastron very probably means no cover.

If you're an officer of the club and someone gets hurt, you might end up being personally liable, and if I were you I'd be asking someone "in the know" about insurance at the Uni to take a look at your situation. If the Uni's going to end up paying out for injuries they may be willing to buy you some underplastrons!

HSD
-15th July 2003, 14:36
Originally posted by rory


If you're an officer of the club




I'm not.

HSD
-15th July 2003, 14:42
Originally posted by rory
I personally have had an UNbroken blade penetrate the seam of my jacket, and although it didn't come through the (cotton) lining because I turned, it still scared hell out of me.
[/b]

That's very unfortunate. Are you sure the jacket in question was well maintained? All protective equipment suffers wear and tear (including plastrons). These things should be replaced before they become unsafe -- if the stitching looks or feels "loose", the jacket is long overdue for overhaul or replacement.



And what were the chances of a broken blade killing Vladimir Smirnov? It went through his *mask* - and even years ago when it happened, masks were stronger than an 800N jacket is now!


Without knowing what state his mask was in, I can hardly comment, can I? Maybe after years of abuse the metal had become so fatigued that in fact it was able to take much less than 800N over the area of a blade.



What *reason* do you have for not wearing a plastron? I presume that if you've been fencing 10 years you have your own kit.


No, I don't.



(Quick edit: I realise my tone's a bit snippy above - but if you're an experienced club member, you're setting an example for the beginners, and safety should be of the highest priority)
I absolutely agree, which is why I spend so much of my time making sure the club kit is in good order (I'm *not* the club's armourer, I just do a lot of the work).

3 Card Trick
-15th July 2003, 15:48
""""Without knowing what state his mask was in, I can hardly comment, can I? Maybe after years of abuse the metal had become so fatigued that in fact it was able to take much less than 800N over the area of a blade."""" HSD


It was neither old nor rusty and that is why we have much more stringent safety rules now.

Has your club ever thought of making an "awards for All" application to upgrade kit and buy plastrons?

Having said that I remain horrified at the non use of plastrons and am afraid I can only condemn the practice.

reposte
-15th July 2003, 16:11
If I'm not mistaken, Smirnov's mask would not have met nowadays safety standards, which were modified very much as a consequence of his death.

HSD
-15th July 2003, 16:21
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick
[quote]

Has your club ever thought of making an "awards for All" application to upgrade kit and buy plastrons?


I wouldn't know. The subject of money is not popular in our club, simply because of the politics and paperwork involved in gettng our hands on it -- I won't pretend to understand the mechanisms or policies involved; to me they make no sense -- it's our money, right, so why can't we spend it as our needs dictate at the time?



Having said that I remain horrified at the non use of plastrons and am afraid I can only condemn the practice.
That's fair enough. These issues of (club) policy are something I steer clear of. Is it okay for me to go back to building new kit now? I'm getting tired of all this lawyering, and I'm sure you are too.

Dave Hillier
-15th July 2003, 16:34
Geting money for university clubs can be a nightmare. We get around some things by getting weapons on a capital equipment grant but count blades as expendibles.

Trying to convince the union that all of our equipment needs to be replaced soon because of the CEN regulations was a nightmare.

As for plasterons up till recently starter kits from most manufacturers didn't come with them.

oiuyt
-15th July 2003, 17:35
About 3 years ago a couple of friends of mine were fencing (neither wearing plastrons) when the FIE epee of one of them pierced the FIE jacket of the other (and his side, stopping in his chest cavity where it collapsed but fortunately did not pierce his lung). The equipment wasn't old, was well-maintained, and was up to current regulations. Accidents happen.

Wear a plastron, it's stupid not to.

-B :)

ceprab
-16th July 2003, 11:17
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick

I don't accept that a club which has a policy now publicly aired of "doing without" plastrons is going to be fully covered under the insurance policy.

Bear in mind that if an accident were to occur at a club which has publicly declared that it does not think plastrons are necessary the insurers have all the excuse they need to decline cover.

In the event of cover being declined the officers of the club in question might well find themselves personally liable for the damages.

The officers of the club have aired no such opinion. Dave is a member of our club and has never been on the committee. Our club does provide a limited number of plastrons, primarily to epeeists, but due to financial constraints and the fact that plastrons get a *little* sweaty encourage people to but their own. Dave has, as far as I am aware, never fenced competitively and owns none of his own kit, despite long association with the sport.
Richard
Club Chairman

Gav
-16th July 2003, 11:31
HSD was not the Dave I was thinking of.

posted by Ceprab


The officers of the club have aired no such opinion. Dave is a member of our club and has never been on the committee. Our club does provide a limited number of plastrons, primarily to epeeists, but due to financial constraints and the fact that plastrons get a *little* sweaty encourage people to but their own. Dave has, as far as I am aware, never fenced competitively and owns none of his own kit, despite long association with the sport.

HSD, if this is all true then I find it astonishing that you have made such strong assertions despite not having competed much. Perhaps if you had, you would understand peoples concerns more.

Cerprab:

Speaking as someone who is involved with a club that has, form time to time, struggled with funds then I understand where you are coming from. I feel that more should be done by clubs to encourage those who are serious about competing to buy their own equipment as soon as possible thus keeping the small amount of kit for those who do not. Difficult, I know - I was the vice-chairman if my uni club for a bit. Doesn't Bath uni provide any funds for their clubs?

ceprab
-16th July 2003, 12:03
Originally posted by rory

Therefore, not obeying guidelines->not insured, as far as I can see (and I'm not an expert). Where does your "20 hours" figure come from and what does is signify? There seems to be no mention of it in the Guidelines.

The 20 hours figure comes form the fact that it is not worth us buying 30-40 plastrons for all of our beginners (who mostly turn up at the same time of year ie. the start) to use when after 20 hours or less of fencing they will go away and we will mothball almost all the plastrons until the next year. Repeat three times and FIE will change the specification on the plastrons anyway. It isn't from the safety guidelines, it's from the bottom line of our budget. In an ideal world we might be able to provide plastrons for all. As it is we struggle to provide jackets, masks and swords.


If you're an officer of the club and someone gets hurt, you might end up being personally liable, and if I were you I'd be asking someone "in the know" about insurance at the Uni to take a look at your situation. If the Uni's going to end up paying out for injuries they may be willing to buy you some underplastrons!

This might be worth a try though!

ceprab
-16th July 2003, 12:18
For those that are really interested we plan on buying three plastrons a year until we have enough to cover at least a full team (so anyone competing is protected).

Unfortunately other items on our budget to get us to a minimum level for competing are:
2 sabre lames, 3 sabres, 3 epees, 5 foils, foil lame, 2 kit bags, 20 steam foils (more if we can get the budget), 7 spare blades, 3 spool springs and sundries.

It's been a while since I filled out the whole budget form, but I think that this little lot comes to something around treble what the SA is able to allocate to us. We therefore have to do quite a bit of fundraising ourselves to get this lot.

We can make special equipment requests, but will probably get refused seeing as we had a large one recently to replace many masks and jackets to reach the new standard. As a result of this our current newton rating for an average club member is higher than it has ever previously been. We are aquiring plastrons slowly. It is the only possible approach available.

Incidentally, I would be very surprised if we are the only Uni club to have this sort of problem.

And - fencing is and has been long before the safety guidelines were tightened, one of the safest sports around. Ask around football or rugby clubs and you will find far more horrific tales than we have here (although I will accept that fencing can be spectacular when an accident does occur.)

ceprab
-16th July 2003, 12:21
:mad: :( I'm feeling picked on on behalf of my club on this thread:upset:. Thanks to Dave from Soton for the support.

HSD
-19th July 2003, 19:20
Originally posted by Gav
HSD was not the Dave I was thinking of.



This is hardly surprising, since you have never met me.




HSD, if this is all true then I find it astonishing that you have made such strong assertions despite not having competed much. Perhaps if you had, you would understand peoples concerns more.



Go back and *read* everything I have posted in this thread. Ceprab has not given you any information I had not already provided myself. If you read it *very* carefully, you will notice that I have only actually made only one assertion (and that was not strong). The assertion was that any accident sufficiently nasty that a hard chestguard (on male fencers) is the only thing which will prevent serious injury, then the hit is liely to be lethal elsewhere (I quoted abdomen, but throat would be as valid if the blade is directed under the bib of the mask -- for example by a falling fencer). The majority of my posts were an attempt to get the various contributors to realise that I wasn't talking about fencing in general terms, or arguing the toss about any given ruling, but stating a personal observation WRT the very narrow confines of normal (controlled) club fencing. You may disagree with that opinion, fine. The BFA almost certainly does disagree with it, that's fine too -- the BFA and I have never been on speaking terms. Perhaps with the hindsight ceprab has provided you, you might be able to appreciate that this arguement actually derived from a load of people who were more interested in quoting rulebooks and guidelines at me than actually comprehending what I had written. I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I even don't mind them telling me that they disagree. I do, however dislike people *telling* me I'm wrong when they haven't taken the time to think about what I have actually said -- the only person who I am certain took the minute or two necessary to see where I was coming from was Cville Fencer, everyone else appears to have waded into the fight for the hell of it, but maybe I'm wrong -- I hope so. Perhaps I could have made my meaning clearer... I dunno. At this point I no longer care, either.

---EDIT---

All of that is a bit harsh, now that I read it back -- it wasn't meant to be. I could delete it, and deny that I had ever said it, but I won't. Read between the lines a bit and you'll probably catch my drift.

Gav
-19th July 2003, 19:47
This is hardly surprising, since you have never met me.

I shall explain, despite your enormous chip, why I thought I knew who you were. I know a Dave who is an Epeeist and is also 'hairy' and 'scary' whom I also believe is likely to frequent festivals such as Glastonbury [which you mention elsewhere]. From bits and bobs on other threads your attititudes seemed to match up until this thread where you seemed to be a little ... sensitive. I haven't spoken to him in a little while so I have not had the chance to catch up. As I have now realised that you are not he I'm glad I never bothered contacting you more directly.


Perhaps with the hindsight ceprab has provided you, you might be able to appreciate that this arguement actually derived from a load of people who were more interested in quoting rulebooks and guidelines at me than actually comprehending what I had written. I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I even don't mind them telling me that they disagree. I do, however dislike people *telling* me I'm wrong when they haven't taken the time to think about what I have actually said -- the only person who I am certain took the minute or two necessary to see where I was coming from was Cville Fencer, everyone else appears to have waded into the fight for the hell of it, but maybe I'm wrong -- I hope so. Perhaps I could have made my meaning clearer... I dunno. At this point I no longer care, either.

I would rather that you had split up your post in paragraphs however ...

I have read all of your posts, I suppose you could say that it was part of the job description, but in reality I was initially curious about your opinion. My own assertions had little to do with the rulebooks or guidelines, instead they were based upon experience - apart from the caveat that if I met you on the piste that I would insist that you wear a plastron.

If I do ever meet you face to face then I hope that we will continue this discussion in a nicer manner.

randomsabreur
-19th July 2003, 19:51
You would never catch me fencing without a chest protector, and only very occasionally without a plastron, mostly when I have been stupid enough to forget mine on a club night where none can be provided, and generally only if I am wearing an 800N jacket. Then again, I regularly take lessons in a Mask and Glove (and the clothing required for modesty purposed for the avoidance of doubt!)

That said, chest protectors can make epee hits worse (bouncing so they hit at nasty angles), and if you are coaching at foil without a padded and grippy coaching plastron can lead to most points sliding up into your throat!!!!

I would like to know, however, why men's chest protectors cover all ribs while ladies' ones do not!!! Not fair!

Gav
-19th July 2003, 19:54
Originally posted by ceprab
:mad: :( I'm feeling picked on on behalf of my club on this thread:upset:. Thanks to Dave from Soton for the support.

Oh dear, I don't think that anyone intended that. I hope that you are able to get the kit for you club sorted sometime soon. Our club is awaiting a new load of kit to aviod problems with the newsafety reg's - we've condemned a number of jackets.

3 Card Trick
-20th July 2003, 08:16
I don't ntend to be harsh, but I feel that airing non use of kit on a public forum was not your smartest move ever.

As to the "controlled" environent of club fencing, that is where the last fatality in this country took place.

Muso440
-20th July 2003, 10:24
Originally posted by randomsabreur

I would like to know, however, why men's chest protectors cover all ribs while ladies' ones do not!!! Not fair!

Hmm, jolly good point. Maybe the manufacturer's think girls are only ever going to fence girls (patently not true), and that girls will be gentler (ha!).

Seeing as I'm probably going to be buying my own chest protector shortly, I'd be interested to hear if any women have found anywhere that *does* do a rib-covering version... (Also, if anyone has found one that looks less naff than the usual ones.)

Otherwise: equipment shops please take note!!

randomsabreur
-20th July 2003, 13:05
For making them look less naff, try spray painting one silver, gold, or whatever takes your fancy!

pinkelephant
-20th July 2003, 15:48
Found a really good use for chest protectors at the Nationals - putting on top of the extension lights to shade them so you could actually see them:grin:

The old style doggy bowl ones that went into pockets in the jacket make really good frisbees.

Anyone got any other interesting uses for them?:pirate:

Aoife
-9th August 2003, 20:57
Seeing as I'm probably going to be buying my own chest protector shortly, I'd be interested to hear if any women have found anywhere that *does* do a rib-covering version... (Also, if anyone has found one that looks less naff than the usual ones.)


My chestguard covers my ribs. Mwahahaahaahaa! By some lucky fate (and me being incrediably small in stature) my chestguard comes down to my lowerst ribs at the front (not quiet covering them on the sides, at their lowest points) and my breeches come up to about and inch off the end og my chestguard (I only have to worry about people hitting in that inch..... which some people seem dreadfully apt at! :mad: )

Muso440
-10th August 2003, 11:10
:upset:

Lucky you!

Just wait until you grow up though ;) ;)

khayman
-12th August 2003, 17:33
Hard plastic chestguards are good, and I wear one. I find that they cut down on the bruises that I get from fencers who like to counterattack in foil when you least expect it. I just wish they would make on that covered the clavical. Seems that if I take quite a few shots to that area and I'm sore for a week. And it's just above where the chestguard covers.

Barry, how about a chestguard for men that covers up to the shoulder and over? :transport

Aoife
-15th August 2003, 22:36
Just wait until you grow up though

Heehee, at 16 I don't think there's much chance of that. I'm destinted to be 5'1'' (and a half!) forever!

(people rarle realise how small I am until I take of my shoes and stand in front of them.... my boyfriend who I've known for 4 months commented only this Tuesday "My God you're tiny!".... mummble murmur groan, alirught for him blooming lanky 6' something! :) )

Rdb811
-15th August 2003, 23:11
Just you wait till you grow out, then.

khayman
-16th August 2003, 03:13
And there's nothing wrong with some of us being 6 foot. :luke:

Gecko
-18th August 2003, 14:10
The question of breastplates leaving part of the ribs uncovered reminds me of an injury suffered when an epee blade broke after snagging on the upper arm of a fencer; the broken end, probably as the blade whipped straight, continued, hitting her just above the breastplate. After a break, the fencing continued, then the fencer felt faint and was hospitalised; it was found that a piece of cartilage from the rib-cage had pierced a lung. (www.jayes.org.za/fencing/news.html)

Jambo
-23rd August 2003, 12:06
Just scan read most of this thread ( so apologies if I'm repeating anything). I'll leave out my personal opinion on plastrons (well.. I have one and I wear it in all comps).

Does anyone know if we could lean on our union to provide money for plastrons for the whole uni club as a "legal" issue? As one of the coaches listed in the club records I am am potentially liable for any accidents.

We do not have anything like enough money to provide plastrons for every beginner (something mentioned as a big issue earlier). As a further issue much of our kit is old (jackets and blades), and so perhaps a plastron is even more needed? I'd hate to bring it up with the uni and then get shut down for being unsafe!

Gecko
-23rd August 2003, 13:33
Cost being a major objection for many clubs, how about home-made plastrons (club-made, rather). With some organisation and somebody available with the right skills, a batch could be run up; much of the worry about safety would be allayed, even with the lack fo FIE certification, and the insurance postion. The vendors and makers of togs need not fret, since keen fencers will in due time buy proper plastrons.

pinkelephant
-26th August 2003, 08:43
The insurance cover would still be invalidated if the plastrons are not up to the new CEN standards. The closeness of the weave of the cloth is the most important thing - it must withstand a force of 350N to pass at CEN 1. If you can get the appropriate cloth you could make your own if you remember there must be no underarm seam.

Exgeordielass
-26th August 2003, 15:50
Originally posted by pinkelephant
The insurance cover would still be invalidated if the plastrons are not up to the new CEN standards. The closeness of the weave of the cloth is the most important thing - it must withstand a force of 350N to pass at CEN 1. If you can get the appropriate cloth you could make your own if you remember there must be no underarm seam.

I understood the new regulations insisted on CEN marked kit, not just that the cloth was of sufficient standard. An important difference for us as a Club as we are spending a considerable amount of our funds on replacing our kit. :(

Rdb811
-26th August 2003, 20:06
The wording on the BFA website is as clear as mud, I suspect if push came to shove, you would have to be able to prove that the plastron was up to spec, hence effectively you would need them certified (to have certifeid the garment yourself using the same tests).

panda
-27th August 2003, 03:21
i dont, personally because i really dont feel the need to....and i feel it restricts me to move fully..but maybe thats because i was trained in scotland not to....now im in texas and evrone at the club wears on except me! im the only guy or girl that doesnt! they are readily worn over here!


andrew

Moose
-29th August 2003, 00:13
I don't wear one either, but then sabre is my thing and blows dont tend to hurt that much. Maybe I should invest in some foam padding for my mast tho to stop the ringing noise :grin:

HSD
-7th September 2003, 04:21
Originally posted by Moose
I don't wear one either, but then sabre is my thing and blows dont tend to hurt that much.



Where were you two months ago when I was doing such a great job of defending myself, eh?? And I agree that sabre is a very painless weapon. By the way, what trolls? I see no trolls.

Moose
-7th September 2003, 22:39
Had I posted on this topic 2 months ago it would have been in support of those who were criticising your lack of a plastron. You spoke of your club not being able to afford plastrons, well after 2006 you are going to have to have 800N plastrons all round, so you'd best start saving. Just because you've escaped injury for 10 years doesnt mean it'll never happen.

FYI I was posting on the original topic of chest guards, I'll not fence without a plastron, its a basic, and essential piece of kit. You woulding try fencing without a mask would you?

Tubby
-7th September 2003, 23:55
Chest protector - my son wears one, it gives him more confidence and stops him bringing his NF arm in front of his body, ok doesn't actually stop it but that's the theory.

Women rib guard - have you looked into the chest protectors worn by cricketers (who have to face young fast bowlers from Aus, SA and WI on dodgy wickets)?

Plastrons - I and both my kids each have our own plastrons. I wouldn't drive with the kids not buckled up in the back of the car nor will I let them fence without wearing it regardless of how soft kids hit.

All this calculated risk macho stuff is fine if no one else gets hurt. However in the event someone not wearing a plastron ends up in hospital and the club turns to the insurer who would look at the incident like they look at whether there was actually a video camera stolen on holiday, or did you tell us about this and that etc etc to squirm out of stumping up and says no thanks, who then gets hurt? Well only the officers of the club and serves them right too.

On the eve of the 9/11 I'll remind folk that that event couldn't happen until it did. Calculated risk my:moon:

HSD
-8th September 2003, 00:56
Originally posted by Moose

FYI I was posting on the original topic of chest guards, I'll not fence without a plastron, its a basic, and essential piece of kit. You woulding try fencing without a mask would you?

Erm... I was trolling. Hence the last couple of lines of what I wrote. I seriously didn't expect anyone to bite, though, so I think I'll wander off feeling a little bit chuffed. As for not fencing without a mask, no. But those jackets are very restrictive...

ceprab
-8th September 2003, 09:24
I'm going to have to buy a large, gruff billy-goat to deal with the club troll causing trouble;).......


You spoke of your club not being able to afford plastrons, well after 2006 you are going to have to have 800N plastrons all round, so you'd best start saving.

sigh here we go again... our budget plans on buying 3 800N plastrons a year until we have 'enough'. See previous comments on deluge of absolute beginners and value of buying full kit for them. We are insured on the NUS anyway, and only BFA affiliated when we are feeling rich enough to waste the £20-something quid fee. Probably ought to seek an opinion from the NUS though :( .

pTeppic
-8th September 2003, 11:53
Actually, you'll find that your not ensured through the NUS since fencing falls outside of its jusidiction. The guidelines printed regards fencing in universities is that all university clubs should be affiliated to BF or a respective national body which provides insurance cover.

On the issue of plastrons, our club provides 14 800N Allstar plastrons for beginners and more importantly eppeists to use.

On the use of plastrons for sabre/steam foil fencing can I draw your attention to the BF Safety Standards article availible on the website.


A) Those fencing with size 3 or smaller blades, electric or non-electric, all 3 weapons (both fencers) AND those fencing with non-electric foil blades (both fencers)


Without displaying a long table (of which I am unsure how to format), either a 350N jacket with attached 350N plastron, seperate jacket and seperate plastron or a 800N jacket may be worn.

All other fencing must be performed with a plastron.

Since sabre blades are made of the same steel as steam foil blades, we allow our sabourers to fence steam without a plastron if and only if they have an FIE jacket. Otherwise, a plastron must be worn.

Therefore I summarise our club rules are:

Steam Foil : 350N jacket, 350N plastron or 800N jacket. Long trousers must be worn.

Steam Sabre : As for foil.

Electric Foil : min 350N jacket, min 350N plastron. Breeches must be worn.

Electric Epee : as for foil.

Electric sabre : rarely done in club, but when done as for foil and epee.

Lessons with the coach may be taken in mask and glove, however advice should be sought from the coach prior. Coaches *must* wear a coaching plastron (club provides one for those that don't own one).

Bear in mind that this is a university club and even we stick by the rules.

On the topic of chest guards, I personally wear one for foil and epee, since I have a personal injury that could be aggrivated further if hit with the point. I find them cumbersome for sabre, however I find them useful for teaching point-in-line attacks at sabre.

Kian

Moose
-8th September 2003, 14:39
But who uses sabre blades other than size 5?

Cos you can use size 5 steam foil blades, but not size 5 sabre blades. Also its uneconomical to have 2 different kinds of sabres, just fence steam with electric size 5 blades. That way its easier to equip electric sabruers.

pinkelephant
-8th September 2003, 15:32
U14s have to use size 2 sabres in competition.

Moose
-8th September 2003, 17:31
Granted, but Kian was talking about NUS, thus Uni age.

pTeppic
-10th September 2003, 09:38
There is no difference between electric and non-electric sabre blades. They are manufactured in the same way (so far as I understand) as steam foil blades.

And beginners use size 5 steam foil blades, thats who. Having beginners fencing with electric weapons is uneconomical and dangerous (tend to hurt more).

Kian

Moose
-10th September 2003, 17:30
That's the point, in competition at Uni age you're going to need size 5 electric sabres. You'd be putting yourself at a huge disadvantage by using size 2 blades.

Rdb811
-10th September 2003, 21:34
Not to mentin looking a right wuss by complaining that you lost because your blade was too short - which someboiy at the club has done.

Moose
-10th September 2003, 23:18
LOL C'est la vie :D

pTeppic
-12th September 2003, 09:22
I'm getting very confused as to where the implication that we were using size 2 sabre blades came from.

Please point out where I blundered.

We use size 5 sabre blades, somehow I don't think Laszlo would be so stupid as to let us use size 2s...

Kian

Moose
-12th September 2003, 13:16
On the use of plastrons for sabre/steam foil fencing can I draw your attention to the BF Safety Standards article availible on the website.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A) Those fencing with size 3 or smaller blades, electric or non-electric, all 3 weapons (both fencers) AND those fencing with non-electric foil blades (both fencers)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Without displaying a long table (of which I am unsure how to format), either a 350N jacket with attached 350N plastron, seperate jacket and seperate plastron or a 800N jacket may be worn.

Hence you cant use size 5 sabre blades without a plastron.

jonnyd
-7th October 2003, 10:33
I wear one because it makes me feel more confident when i am fencing. Lots of people complain but I think they are great.

I also like wearing one because i can come home from the clubwithout bruises all over me, which is godd when you play rugby as well.:moon: