View Full Version : BUSA what are you thinking!!!!!!???

-23rd September 2005, 11:35
I have heard a very disturbing rumour that BUSA's decision on new timings is that they are not bothered and either can be used.

2 problems (or more) with this

1. I guess the home team chooses the timing so they will choose whatever timing suits there team best. Giving the home team more than the normal psychological advantage.

This means practically that every team will have to train on both which is not very helpful if you compete in the circuit

2. Since it is the decision of the home team as I can see it there is nothing stopping a team having old timings for foil and then new timings for sabre for example within a match.

This is all very strange and considering the finals are in the new timings shouldn’t the whole competition make an effort to convert to new timings.

I understand that small clubs may not have the funds to convert but should this mean also that we get an unfair advantage over a "good team" that has trained and competed all year under the new timings.

Surely the rule should read like the President rule.

'Every effort to provide a new timing box must be made if a box can not be obtained the option must be given (in a timely fashion) to the away team to bring there own new timing box. If the away team declines the match will be run under the old timings'

This would give the smaller clubs the opportunity to still compete but not do over teams that have fencers fencing the circuit and have trained under the new timings as standard.

PS sorry had to rant can believe some people

-23rd September 2005, 11:43
Good teams should be good enough to beat "weak" teams whatever the timing. A simple change of timings won't change anything. Basically if it works on the new timings, (other than an out of time remise), it will work on the old timings. So occasionally having to use the old timings will not affect a team that has good basic technicque and is capable of using the conventional actions, rather than remises. It is not as though it is harder to hit on the old timings than the new, and given the variation between new timings boxes, particularly at sabre, you are not best advised to plan actions that are cynical out of time remises unless you know you are on a particularly tight box. Some of the ones at the Bristol were more than a little soft.

Boo Boo
-23rd September 2005, 12:00
Agree with randomsabreur - a good fencer (providing they don't loose their mind...) will fence well on either timings.

I think that you are being far too paranoid about what will dictate which timings are used where - surely it will be kit available and not some pre-meditated decision on which timings the home team will do better on?

Yes, it would be better for all teams to be on new timings, BUT that may exclude some universities (without funds to update boxes) from competing. Ideally a home team without new timings boxes would try to borrow one from a local club and/or ask the visiting team if they could bring one with them. The visiting team could always ask what box timings the home teams have and offer to bring a new timings box... :)

As a foil/sabre fencer you are best to train on the new timings (for important competitions) and "adapt" (to the old timings) if required for a BUSA match.


-23rd September 2005, 12:05
Personally, I think it's now even easier to fence on old timings now that I've sort of semi adapted to the new ones, and i'm not exactly a world-beater, so I don't think having to fence on the old timings will be to the detriment of good fencers at all.

-23rd September 2005, 12:11
Good points

But to be fair there are tactics that work under new timings in sabre particularly that would not work under the old and doing these in training and having to stop doing them in a random match is easier said than done

and maybe a bit paranoid but if you had very good foilists wouldn’t you use old timings so they can flick there way to victory

Just seems very flimsy decision really

Boo Boo
-23rd September 2005, 12:33
Originally posted by Grim252
and maybe a bit paranoid but if you had very good foilists wouldn’t you use old timings so they can flick there way to victory

Not necessarily - there is more than one way to skin a cat...

To be honest, it is better to train and compete using the new timings in foil - a quick victory in a BUSA match doesn't have much long term benefit. A good foilist should be using the BUSA matches to practice stuff that will benefit them in more important competitions...


-23rd September 2005, 15:01

I help BUSA with the fencing and NO DECISION HAS YET BEEN MADE!!

Currently, an audit is being carried out of which teams own/have access to new timings equipment to facilitate the decision. BUSA are contacting the clubs directly.


Barry Flood
-23rd September 2005, 15:05
Pity the poor referee ! Could lead to some interesting decisions and 'on piste' discussions.

-23rd September 2005, 19:33
With less than a month until the new season starts and all of the clubs left in limbo, how do BUSA expect us to cope. Its going to be difficult enough as it is getting all the start of year stuff sorted as it is without having to cease electric practise for at least a week while the box is in the shop, then having to get the team used to the new timings. :mad:

I feel an official complaint coming, especially as we had our AU asking about this towards the end of last year, so that we could send the box away over the summer break.


-25th September 2005, 20:13
We've been asking about this for a long time too, trying to have everything in place for the start of the season. Fortunately we have kept funds in reserve to cover it, but I imagine at some cliubs they will have a struggle to come up with the cash at short notice, not to mention getting the boxes in and out of the repairers on time.

Last I heard the decision was meant to have been in the weekly mailout last Tuesday, maybe we'll be luckier this week.

Personally I think BUSA should have made an announcement at the end of last season that they were following the BFA and making all events new timings for the upcoming season. That would have given every club time over the summer to raise funds and upgrade. As it is we're still in limbo and seemingly no nearer a decision.

-27th September 2005, 15:52
BUSA have released a statement. The important bit is quoted below

Weekly mailout (http://www.busa.org.uk/mailout.asp?section=000100020005&code=10010114&year=2005)
Following guidance from the British Fencing Association (BFA) institutions may use either old or new box timings for league fixtures during the 2005-06 season. New timings are recommended for all fixtures as these will also be used at the BUSA Individuals in December 2005 and at the Team Finals in March 2006.


-27th September 2005, 22:03
so the rumour was true what a pants decision and we have the BFA to thank apparently wonder who we have to thank for that piece of advice:mad:

-28th September 2005, 13:26
Surely the decision rested on every clubs ability to provide a new box. In some cases they would have to provide more than 1 if the second team or womens team also had a home match. I doubt that BUSA thought most of the teams had a new box. But I think that they should have made the premiership teams at least have to use the new timings as I suggest they all have the equipment.

I suppose what will happen is that most teams will travel with a new box if they are desperate to use one.

-28th September 2005, 16:12
If the home team will allow that because essentially the decision rests with the home team

Mr. Shrubbery
-13th October 2005, 17:07
Originally posted by Grim252

Surely the rule should read like the President rule.

How many BUSA matches have you been to where an independent referee was actually provided? (A club's coach doesn't really count).

I think, you are taking this a little bit too seriously. The BUSA matches are good fun, but they are not the Olympics. Their chief purpose is to allow the rank and file university fencers to gain a bit of competitive experience in a comparatively low-pressure environment and at minimum expense. ("Elite" fencers don't tend to take BUSAs very seriously anyway.) If you consider the standard of fencing and presiding we are generally talking about, the box becomes a very small thing.

Also, considering the fact that more timing changes are likely to follow, it is hardly reasoable to ask all university clubs to cope with the expense of rechipping their boxes once a year.

-13th October 2005, 17:52
Originally posted by Mr. Shrubbery
How many BUSA matches have you been to where an independent referee was actually provided? (A club's coach doesn't really count).

Err, none, as I'm sure most other people would answer (not including the finals)

"Elite" fencers don't tend to take BUSAs very seriously

Most non-elite fencers don't take it seriously either