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vikkia
-2nd October 2005, 20:09
Please ,pretty please, could we have updated rankings up soon? Although the results are there for the latest comps,the rankings still go back to July!!!! I am sure that we all know pretty much where our child is but it would be nice to have it confirmed and to see what they need to do at Cambridge.
Thanks

VeeSix
-2nd October 2005, 20:31
Yes, I absolutely agree with that - can someone please update the LPJS rankings, preferably before the series ends. :o:

Touché Turtle
-2nd October 2005, 21:09
I will add my agreements too. Please update the rankings soon. It is only fair on the children for them to see where they are, after all, they are only little* and it means a lot to them!

*well, mine is!:)

Touché Turtle
-4th October 2005, 18:14
*bump*
We're still waiting.......pretty please. :)

kingkenny
-5th October 2005, 07:42
Ok the foil rankings are now up to date.
See here:
http://www.leonpaul.com/lpjs/results/res_2005/res_2005.htm
Thats after durham.
Now I am waiting for Epee and sabre rankings.

Touché Turtle
-5th October 2005, 08:13
You are a star :cool: Thanks very much. :)

Baldric
-5th October 2005, 16:52
And good luck to Touche Jnr, who is looking a very strong series medal contender........go turtle..go!!!!!!!!

Touché Turtle
-5th October 2005, 21:53
Originally posted by Baldric
And good luck to Touche Jnr, who is looking a very strong series medal contender........go turtle..go!!!!!!!!

Thank you.. She's done well so far.
There are series medals??? Ooooh, I won't tell her, it'll be a nice surprise. :)

Baldric
-5th October 2005, 22:04
Originally posted by Touché Turtle
There are series medals??? Ooooh, I won't tell her, it'll be a nice surprise. :)

Not sure about actual medals, but this cut from the LPJS guide

The prizes for each category shall be:

First Prize Equipment voucher for £100
Second Prize Equipment voucher for £50
Third Prize Equipment voucher for £25
Fourth Prize Equipment voucher for £15

Neil Brown
-5th October 2005, 22:40
Sabre rankings include events up to Camden...which was in March.

PM1
-5th October 2005, 23:18
No medal or cup for series winner :( but a parent pleasing voucher. Think I'll have a chat with BP and/or KK on this one - it would be very nice to have something for the series winners to hand back next year, with their name on, don't you think?? In the Yorkie Youth League, we do series winner tropies (each comp has medals) and they get a small replica to keep. I know, I know - doting mum's touch, but it's something to keep and remind you/them of their youf..;)

Touché Turtle
-6th October 2005, 12:38
I had noticed the equipment voucher.... :)
It is, however more of a parent prize really. Will save me some cash toward the size 3 blades needed next year! An end of series medal / winners trophy for the children would be a nice touch.

kingkenny
-6th October 2005, 13:20
So wait you would rather have the same prize system as the Yorkshire Youth series PM1:
Medals will be awarded to fencers placing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Yorkshire Youth League trophies will be presented to the winner of the league in each age group, weapon, and gender (other than U10 which is of mixed gender). Trophies will be held by the winner for the period of one year after which the trophies must be returned to the Organising Committee.
:eek:
or the:
Certificates to all athletes that compete and then medals for the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th with the event name on for U9 U11 U13 and U15. Then the small matter of £1520 prize money. :o:

Maybe you’re right I could drop the prize money and just have 8 trophies at the cost of about £200 and save myself all the printing, delivering and sending of vouchers.

Oh you could include the £300 prize donation to charity to try and raise £2000 for "hope for children." :confused:
See here:
http://www.leonpaul.com/lpjs/hope.htm

Thanks for the thoughts.

:moon:

Now let me get back to:
Organising the delivery of piste hire for the lpjs in December, unloading of LPJS prize t-shirts. Hand typing and adding the Cambridge foil LPJS to the website. Correcting the results from Leister that had 3rd and 4th place competitors getting different point and affecting some peoples rankings. Correcting all the information on the new LPJS event list http://leonpaulnews.com/lpjs/sitetable.php
Trying to persuade my girlfriend to come with me on the weekends so I can give out prizes at the last events in every weapon.
Doing next years calader so it has intersting information for parents.
etc....
rantono

WFFC Coach
-6th October 2005, 13:30
KK,

Very good points made above.
BUT fencers (and their mums) do like trophies preferably with their name on as a permanent record for others to see,....... so what about virtual trophies.

These could be kept on the LPJS website, and virtually engraved with the winners name and year and be available for the whole world to view.

kingkenny
-6th October 2005, 13:46
Well I keep all the results from all the years that I have helped do the lp website including the years I was not actually a lp employee.
http://www.leonpaul.com/lpjs/results.htm
and if organisers would take picture of the prize giving then I can put them on line next to the results pages like here: http://www.leonpaul.com/news/big_news_story/haverstock.htm

PM1
-6th October 2005, 16:17
KK - every kid who fences in any or all of the YYL gets a certificate
for each event they fence (like LPJS) and a medal if they come 1-=3 in each event (like LPJS), and at the end of the league, get a trophy as top dog of each of the age /weapon groups (15 of them) and overall Master/Mistress at arms get a trophy (2 of them, of course) and all of the above 17 get a mini trophy to keep.

Printing is a bore and a bind, and LPJS is a brilliant series, but the kids LIKE TROPHIES (ask them !!) A special thing about LPJS is the medals with event name and year - never lose those, please. The certificates tend to blow away with the wind.....happens to yours, happens to mine......

I like the idea of virtual trophies, as well.....especially season enders. And good to have the pervious season ones in each new season's brochure. This year's brochure is brilliant !!......do I protest too much, or is it part of the day job??? Do you HAve a life o/side LP???:tongue:

Baldric
-6th October 2005, 16:30
Hi KK

I have to back up PM1 and WFFC Coach here.

After the Bolton Cadet, a number of kids and parents were bemoaning the lack of actual medals/cups. (I know this was not an LP event).

Baldric Jnr summed it as she handed me her equipment voucher and said wistfully - "it would have been nice to get some shiny metal!"

And that's from a jaded old 14yr old! Imagine how much more strongly Touche Jnr would feel at U9!!!!

There is sod all money in fencing, so the trophy cabinet/wall is just about the only external motivation.

WE WANT SHINY METAL - even if you have to reduce the value of the vouchers to pay for it!

regards

Baldric

Winwaloe
-7th October 2005, 08:07
We take part in a local summer fete, give a demonstration and have a stall where we also give fencing displays throughout the day. As part of the stall decoration we have a large noticeboard full of medals that club members have won. It looks good and always gathers a lot of interest.

kingkenny
-7th October 2005, 08:07
Ok easily done. Next year we can do less prize money and have 8 cups.

Tubby
-7th October 2005, 12:33
Less prize money???? :confused: Tubby Jr is motivated by prize money. Any chore in and around the house that needs doing = additional pocket money. She would still be doing U17 LPJS just for the prize money (even if it meant turning up in (I hope) GB stripes).

Although it cost me a small fortune to travel this beautiful country of ours (and I thank LP for this opportunity) the calendar is largely picked by Tubby Jr and how much she needs to do to be in the running for those equipment vouchers (thank god she doesn't do sabre!).

The vouchers in the past have been hers to spend (of course with a bit of helpful hints from her father and a firmly drawn line at the metal figurines Simon was selling at £100 the pair).

Seriously though, a medal or a cup to keep to remember the overall end ranking would be nice as an enhancement to this wonderful series that LP runs.

If it wasn't for LP my daughter's interest in the sport would not be as it is today. We do not travel to the Premier Series principally as its only one way (South). It would be churlish to be critical of what LP is trying to achieve and I'm sure the contributors above are being constructive. As a parent whose children have had £300 in vouchers out of this Series I say thank you for having the reward scheme. As a parent whose children have won overall in their age group I find resonance in what has been echoed earlier on this thread about the gong at the end.:)

Touché Turtle
-7th October 2005, 12:46
KK, please don't take our suggestions as a complaint, we all think the LPJS is brilliant and know it takes a lot of organising.
At the end of the year so many children and their parents have benefited from it. Those that reach the top of their table have put in a lot of effort on several occasions across the country, and a prize such as vouchers is a great reward. However, if you look at it from the kids' point of view, an equipment voucher is not really very exciting. (PLEASE NOTE - the parents really DO appreciate it). Usually if kids need new equipment, then they get it anyway (courtesy of mum & dad!), so a voucher is fairly unimportant to them, especially the younger ones who don't really grasp its value. I'm not saying do away with the voucher 'cause its boring, but children do like something shiny they can take to show off at school assembly. :)
The LPJS is excellent, we're just finishing our first year and it has been a really good experience. Any suggestions are merely that - suggestions. I can't think of a single organisation / group that was so perfect it couldn't come up with some ideas to make things even better in the future.

kingkenny
-8th October 2005, 10:38
Hey I don’t really take offence to anything anyone says. The trouble is lots of the series is run on good will not money. If I was in charge (which I kind of am) I would suggest organisers up the entry fees. Noooooo I hear you cry, but wait my plan gets better. With increase entry fees the service level increase. All events with 100 or more entries should proved at least 4 metallic pistes, a winners podium with photographer and a 10 pound engraved trophy for all the 1st place winners. Then they should send the results to me by the Monday so I could place all the results with winners pictures on the website within 2 days of the event.
Then I would also put on the competitions on-line with some kind of events management program so that people can book competitions over the internet. The program would then place automatically a list of all the people attending so you can see which friends or talented kids are attending what event.

vikkia
-13th October 2005, 20:55
Sounds like a plan to me! but by how much would you add to the entry fees? For the yorkshire league we paid a pittance in entry fees,all got a certificate, top 4 medals, winners of league 2 trophies one to keep and one to go back,plus vouchers,and all sorts of extra gifts , also the league table has already been updated and the comp was only on Sunday!
I do appreciate that you have a much bigger job to do and a lot more comps so this is not a slam,I really do like your idea though,so what would you call a fair entry fee to do all those things?
BTW the rankings haven't been altered yet I assume it's in hand:)

vikkia
-15th October 2005, 20:40
Thanks KK you did it. Sorry to be such a pain:o:

Keith.A.Smith
-31st October 2005, 12:04
Dear KK,

I think the LPJS is great. I started the epee series and used to help Barbara run the London Foil event.

Having medals for the top 4 is great as are the certificates.

We add Whitgift certificates and also edible prizes for the top 8 in each event and liquid prizes for the refs.

Will try to get photos this year to send to you.
Well done and kep up the good work. It really does encourage more people into fencing.

I imagine the equipment vouchers for winning the series are a great hit with parents and if you win a voucher you have presumably won plenty of medals along the way.

Keith

asaba
-15th November 2005, 12:21
When are the Sabre rankings going to be updated? There hasn't been an update on boys sabre since Camden LPJS in March 2005!:( and girls sabre since Durham in May 2005

VeeSix
-15th November 2005, 12:58
I've just about given up on the LPJS boy's sabre rankings being updated.
VeeSix Jnr won the Durham event but still doesn't appear on the rankings page!
:( :upset: :confused:

Stephen Chivers
-15th November 2005, 15:01
Hopefully before the Bath event, 27 November, so we can all know where we stand for the last two competitions!

rugmike
-25th November 2005, 07:44
Sadly, L.P. seem to have abandoned all responsibility for the rankings. I have "complained " in the past with no success - I just can't understand why Neil manages to do the lists he does, but the largest manufacturers/suppliers in the world (forget which) can't get their act together, and never have !
The response I've always had is "if the organisers don't send the results, how can we put them up"?!
My feeling is that they should get them ! Make it a requirement of running an event ? Make a few phone calls on a Mon/Tues ?(Prob the best) Lot of effort I know(!) ,but it is ridiculous sometimes - this year being one of the worse.
The series is great, terrific idea, why not take the extra step and make this bit efficient - surely a phone call wouldn't stretch the coffers in time or money too much ?

Stephen Chivers
-25th November 2005, 08:45
The problem here (speaking only for Boys Sabre) is not failing to receive results from organisers because they have them all up to date, ie York, and they are available on their website. It is just that they haven't updated the overall ranking list since Camden, the second event in the series!

I have had to resort to pencil and paper (well Excel actually) to produce my own ranking list.

kingkenny
-25th November 2005, 09:05
The series has been left by the old organiser half way through as he has moved to France old systems have to be run through until next year. The guy who calculates all the ranking results does it for free so every year for the last 5 years Simon had managed to get help from a more computer literate person to process the results. The person probably spends 20-30 hrs in total for free to get the results to me. Next year I will be doing all the results myself and they will appear as soon as I get the results from the organiser. All rankings will be updated in real time as the results are added (we have paid for a developer to write custom software for the website in PHP but can’t start half way through the season). The guy who process the ranking results is currently working 40 45hr weeks and so his top priority is to keep his job that puts his food on the table. I have chased him repeatedly but there is nothing more I can do. I can’t threaten to fire him!
I have chased the organisers for 2 years now here are some explanations for not getting the results to me within the 2 weeks specified as a condition of running an LPJS event:
don’t have computers therefore I am submitting the results by fax or post (this means an hr or two of hand typing for me)
lost the results
Simon has no current contact details for them
Busy with work
On holiday
Etc…
Again don’t forget that these organisers are doing the competitions for the most part for the good of fencing for FREE. I therefore can’t phone them up and threaten to fire them/cut their competition from next years calendar etc…

Some of the organizers have been with the series for years and are; how can I say this politely OLD! They are not in the age of broad band internet connections and a need for everything to be available in real time. When the series started the internet was hardly in use!!! To give you an idea of the speed of some of the organisers I sent a letter asking for event dates for 2006 for LPJS calendar on the 05/08/06 asking for them to fill in one simple form. I got 2 today after 3 months of phone calls emails and letters! I am still waiting for the last 2 confirmations so I can print the booklet and get it to whitgift for the last event.

LP could easily run 5 well organised events in fact I could do them all in London and get 4 venues within 2 weeks, provide all metallic pistes a podium photographer etc…. Personally I think its better to have competitions that are all over the country instead of 5 based in 1 place. To do this you have to rely on peoples good will and organisers who spend countless hours organising and running events just for the good of fencing and to make kids happy.

So thanks for your “complaint” I will take it on board. What gets me is that you all seem to think that LP makes some kind of profit from the LPJS. LP spend over £20,000 a year and get virtually nothing back (in this case we get back negative publicity because people are complaining)! Could I make more money for LP running 5 big events myself and take all the entry fees myself? Yes. Could I make more money for LP by tapping in to the French market of 12000 fencers and getting 10 new internet sales a day? Yes. Should I get upset by “complaints” made by people who do less for fencing than me? No. If you are not happy with the level of service that you get from your £10 entry fee (bargain of the decade IMOHO) that as I have said LP see none of then please feel free to show your disapproval by not attending any more of the series!

I do appreciate that your kids like to see their names up on the internet and trust me I am doing my best to get the results up as fast as I can.

If any of you would like to volunteer to run a competition in a modern whizzy internet type way, or drive 100s of miles to every single event with a back breaking heavy stand to sell 5 foil blades some breeches plastrons and a new spring, or spend hours typing in name after name of other peoples children into tables and lists then I would be delighted to hear from you.

Whilst I wait with baited breath for the flood of responses I will just have to make do with the kind and wonderful organisers that have who have dedicated so many years and weekends of their lives to Fencing and the entertainment of your children. 

As I have said already on this thread next year it will all be done in house by me and it will be better. For example I have nearly finished inputting all the data for all the events this year so that all entry forms are online for next year. This might save some of you the cost of a stamp and some time. See here: http://leonpaulnews.com/lpjs/lpjs/sitetable.php
...rantono

pinkelephant
-25th November 2005, 12:07
Results from our event in April were on the LP website the next day.

kingkenny
-25th November 2005, 13:11
So were the Cambridge results. ;)

rugmike
-25th November 2005, 15:37
Don't know who the "rant" was addressed to, presumably me, but I for one do not assume LP makes a penny out of the series - apart from the obvious publicity advantages etc....

Neither do I underestimate the demands of running a competition like the LPJS.

Neither do I assume all LP organisers have one foot in the grave.

Neither do I underestimate the value of the series, which was instrumental in giving my son an early grasp of competition basics plus, and convinced him this was something he wanted to try to excel at .

I merely highlighted a problem which has been with the series as long as I have known it, and for the response to my words to bring up all the points mentioned is interesting, as I mentioned/blamed none of them !

I simply can't understand why this topic is such a problem, and seemingly touchy as well. I have already agreed the series is great, but, certainly from the sabre viewpoint, let down by one thing.

If someone can't bring up a point like this without being accused of everything short of genocide and the slaughter of cuddly furry mammals, things have come to a pretty pass, as they say.

I only asked !

rugmike
-25th November 2005, 15:57
PS. I've just reread the piece, and am again astounded at the ferocity I seem to have aroused in the LP soul ! It seems ever so slightly over the top.

And as for not listening to people "who do less for fencing than I do", well, I run a business, as do LP, and without going into charitable intentions or deeds, I tend to call people like me "customers" - or at least someone interested in my sphere of interests.

As such I tend to listen to them.

Of course, people like me aren't many in numbers, only enough to sometimes drive 100's of miles to make up the entries for a LP competition, but I think we're allowed to have the odd suggestion to help make the series better.
And, I repeat, I think the series is great - and of course I appreciate all the hard work the organisers, and LP , do to make it a success, it would be stupid not to.
I just didn't think it was neccessary to bang on about it all the time.

wingnutLP
-25th November 2005, 16:06
Originally posted by rugmike
Sadly, L.P. seem to have abandoned all responsibility for the rankings. I have "complained " in the past with no success - I just can't understand why Neil manages to do the lists he does, but the largest manufacturers/suppliers in the world (forget which) can't get their act together, and never have !

Lot of effort I know(!)


I think it was the tone that upset Ben.

I also think the fact that we got our "act together" 20 years ago to start the series and help the sport in the UK probably counts for something.

As you are now accepting the series is a huge investment of time and money in your origional post "Lot of effort I know(!)" seemed to suggest that no effort is being made. I sit next to him and can tell you that it is not for want of trying that the results are sometimes late.
His time could be spent out making money and instead we are giving it away. :( For the most part all we get in return is "complaints" with only one in 100 e mails sent to lpjs at leonpaul dot com saying anything along the lines of "thankyou". So yes he is touchy :o:

Baldric
-25th November 2005, 16:11
Hi Rugmike

I too have sometimes found myself in the firing line for making similar comments to yours.

I have a fair amount of sympathy for KK as well, because the LP name is at risk being connected to the series, but LP are not in total control of it.

Perhaps KK's rant was a general one, venting the frustrations from labouring to do his best, not always in the easiest of circumstances. Don't take it personally.

kingkenny
-25th November 2005, 16:27
Hey look I am not "touchy" I just have said lots of times next year results will be done in house but untill then we all have to wait for it too be done for free.
Also I "hate" it when people do words in " " it just makes me "mad" ;)

I think everyone knows the improvement that can be made to the LPJS and I will try over the next few years to get everything right. I am listing to suggestions and appriciate them and I am working hard to fix them but saying stuff like Lp have abandoned the series just get my goat as I spend hours of effort into improve it.
The hardest thing to find will be someone who can drive a van to go to events with equipment, prizes, spare apparatus and armoury skills.

Barry has just invested £7000 on a van to help try and get someone who can travel to events all over England. So fingures crossed.

Baldric
-25th November 2005, 19:05
Originally posted by wingnutLP
His time could be spent out making money and instead we are giving it away. :(

Hi WingnutLP (and KK)

Hold on just one cotton pickin' minute!

I am second to no-one in my admiration for the LPJS. Jnr came through the series, and I have the rare distinction of being one of a handful of parents who has been to every single foil event in one season (including Portsmouth & Falkirk on the same weekend).

Its a great series, and it does wonders for developing young fencers.

But let's not kid ourselves that good old Leon Paul are doing this for entirely altruistic reasons.

LP is a business, indeed, in this country its the dominant business in its market sector. As such, its very much in LP's interests to see that market grow, by adding in dozens (100s?) of new potential customers in every year group. Supporting youth fencing may be a general aim of the Paul family, but its also damned good marketing for the LP business.

I am not knocking this. My business spends money on marketing, as do most others. But lets not pretend that its "giving money away". It isn't. It's an investment.

Is it good for the sport? - yes it is.

Is it great for the youngsters? - yes it is.

Does it benefit LP in the long run? - yes it does.

Its a win-win situation. Thats cool.

By the way - the whole LPJS, indeed, the whole future of fencing as a sport (and LPs profits) depends 100% on the willingness of parents like RugMike (and me) to spend quite ridiculous amounts of time and money on our kids participation.

Don't get upset with us. Work to keep us onside.

rugmike
-25th November 2005, 20:41
Dear Kingpenny,
So sorry to have upset you by "ing.Such an "arcane" form of puncuation. I shall blank off the " key immediately, of course.
Now...

I did not say LP had abandoned the series, did I ?
No, I said LP " (oops)... No, I said LP seemed to have abandoned the rankings. A slight difference.

And I don't think the first missive was so incredibly rude/brusque in tone, but then perhaps it seemed so to you. Ah well, can't please everyone. I shall try to be more sensitive in future - nah...
I recall you not taking offence at anybody ? ?

Hurrumph...

Anyway, well put, Baldric.

And not a " in sight !

rugmike
-25th November 2005, 20:58
Dear Wingnut,

If you could kindly read my original entry, you will realise that "getting acts together..", and "lot of effort.." referred to the specific subject of rankings - and not, incidentally, the need for childrens "names to be on the internet." The competitors - most of the ones I know - just want the info, as do us drivers, secretaries, and bottle carriers.
Why should the raising of one topic suddenly be an attack on the integrity, motives, and the work done by LP and event organisers ? Can't see it meself.

rugmike
-25th November 2005, 21:02
Dear Wingnut,

If you could kindly read my original entry, you will realise that "getting acts together..", and "lot of effort.." referred to the specific subject of rankings - and not, incidentally, the need for childrens "names to be on the internet." The competitors - most of the ones I know - just want the info, as do us drivers, secretaries, and bottle carriers.
Why should the raising of one topic suddenly be an attack on the integrity, motives, and the work done by LP and event organisers ? Can't see it meself.
I would say lighten up, but I don't want to offend anybody.

As I said,I only asked - which presumably LP started this forum for ?
And I do appreciate all the work which went into setting the forum up, and the LP website, and the work of the moderators....

rugmike
-25th November 2005, 21:04
Oops, it got half twice and a half sent - sorry about the wasted space !?

kingkenny
-26th November 2005, 10:53
The best way to lighten up a conversation on the forum is to put one of these babies in the end of your post.
:moon:
Always brings a smile to my face.

Yes its Saturday and yes I am currently trying to fix the LPJS online calander because for some "god" dam reason all the closing dates appear correct "on" the first page and then go "wrong" on the printed form.
http://leonpaulnews.com/lpjs/lpjs/sitetable.php

I hate "php" and I wish "I" had not copy and pasted "athletes" spelt wrong onto every entry form"!"

:moon: :eek: :chicken:

rugmike
-26th November 2005, 13:50
Never mind , you can't get everything right !