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Barry Paul
-9th July 2003, 21:34
Several people have mentioned the over use of flick hits by young fencers.In particular badly executed flick hits which hurt or cause bruising. As the paymaster of the Leon Paul Junior Series I would like every LPJS fencer and referee to rember the fencing in this series is meant to be fun, flick hits being done incorrectly are the same as fencing with excessive force and after warnings should be discuraged by yellow and then red carding. Three Card you spell discuraged correctly and give me the proper refereeing phrase.

Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul.

3 Card Trick
-10th July 2003, 15:10
Flick hits can be a thing of beauty, exciting to watch and a favourite with the audience.

I agree with BP that there is a problem when the flick is attempted but mangled. This is a particular problem with young fencers who are keen to emulate the senior fencers but have not yet developed the necessary control of their blade work.

A further problem arises with younngsters at different stages of their growth cycles. In some junior events the height difference between the younger part of an age group and the older can be quite marked.

At the LPJS, BYC Qualifiers and Regional youth events I have a clear policy. I prepare a guidance document fo the referees on the day reminding them of safety etc and in particular that fencing should be a fun and rewarding experience for the youngsters. To this end I make it clear that an attempted flick which in fact turns out to be a "broad sword" slash is to be treated as either "disorderly fencing" (t.87) or "a hit made with violence" (also t.87).

I find that referees are usually much happier giving a yellow card for disorderly fencing, and a red with a penalty hit for a repeat offence.

Usually the yellow card warning is sufficient to calm matters down and tends to eradicate the problem

The same is true of fencers running into each other, give the yellow card for corps a corps on the first occurence at Foil and Sabre and the problem tends to go away.

Hope this helps.

tigger
-16th July 2003, 13:05
The other thing I've noticed at LPJS comps (Foil ones) is that parents/coaches/kids often expect refereeing to be different to what you'd see at an open. They seem to have a more traditional approach to bent arm attacks, using the line in defence etc. Anyone else noticed that?

tigger
-16th July 2003, 13:05
The other thing I've noticed at LPJS comps (Foil ones) is that parents/coaches/kids often expect refereeing to be different to what you'd see at an open. They seem to have a more traditional approach to bent arm attacks, using the line in defence etc. Anyone else noticed that?

tigger
-16th July 2003, 13:07
Hmm - wonder why that came up twice....or am I seeing double...better visit specsavers

Marcos
-16th July 2003, 14:32
Originally posted by tigger
Hmm - wonder why that came up twice....or am I seeing double...better visit specsavers

any excuse for a plug...

anyway, if a young-gun tries to flick me and misses I give him a clip around the ear and tell him not to be cheeky

at jenrick's carrickfergus event flick hits in the foil were banned!

Winwaloe
-17th July 2003, 15:23
re Tiggers comments on refs in the LPJS. This picks up on a point I made elsewhere. Do you ref "by the book" or by the extraordinary number of "conventions" that we see. There is no real standard of refing and I believe it would be a very good idea if the event organiser got the refs together before the start and set out what "model" they will use. If they regard anything moving forward, regardless of where the point is (foil) as priority then let's know about it. If the text book definition is used let's all know. I often get asked to ref. I go by my understanding of the book. I don't do "conventions" whether they come from France, Italy, Germany or Outer Mongolia! As far as I am concerend bent arm "attacks" with the point in the air is a preparation and not an attack! - I heard a ref the other day telling their pool that beat parries were not going to be accepted. That's fine at least the youngsters know what it was all about. I think refs often make up the "rules" as they go along and there is a lot of misunderstanding. I had a very angry parent moan at me as one ref was giving his son priority where I didn't. I gave the other side the hit with an attack on preparation that was in time. As far as I was/am concerend I was right but I went by the text book not some vague "convention". My best young fencer made a very intersting comment the other week viz. "OK I can beat him but how do I beat that referee?" - At a LPJS I had fencers from three first class clubs begging me to ref their matches as they had no confidence in the ability of the referee, these were semi and then final matches!!

3 Card Trick
-20th July 2003, 12:17
Originally posted by Winwaloe
I don't do "conventions" whether they come from France, Italy, Germany or Outer Mongolia! As far as I am concerend bent arm "attacks" with the point in the air is a preparation and not an attack!

Two points, Keith Smith and I have gone to some trouble to spell out the FIE "convention" on attacks which "start" with a bent arm, see our pamphlet "Guidance for Referees".

Second, the only conventions which matter are the FIE Arbitrage ones which are handed down at the major championships and then disseminated via the Refs.

These are added to the pamphlet as necessary.

If you don't have the pamphlet it s on various websites, including the North West one (follow he link from the BFA site.

I hope this helps.

As to LPJS comps, I always give my refs written guidance and a pre comp pep talk. This is he way the FIE do it at major champs by the way.

Winwaloe
-21st July 2003, 11:48
Many thanks TCT and I will try and track down the dets you have come up with and post them on the junior club noticeboard.