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Barry Flood
-7th October 2005, 12:20
This years entries are well down on last year compared to the other weapons. especially at Under 16 level.
Is there a shortage at this age group this year?

Meneldil
-7th October 2005, 15:53
Originally posted by Barry Flood
This years entries are well down on last year compared to the other weapons. especially at Under 16 level.
Suits me fine. ;)
I'll be there.

Gangsta G
-8th October 2005, 07:14
Possibly because the champs are being held in the NE this year whereas previously they were held in the south, with most of the entries from the south also?

frazzled
-8th October 2005, 11:34
Must admit, thats way we are treating it as a rest weekend!

PM1
-9th October 2005, 19:58
Originally posted by frazzled
Must admit, thats way we are treating it as a rest weekend!
Shame on you !!!:mad:

Foilling Around
-9th October 2005, 20:23
Already apologised for not going this year. It falls on FAJs birthday.

The top WF Cadets only get back from Bratislava on the previous Monday. Many Sabreurs are away the previous weekend as well.

Competition Fatigue.

Foilling Around
-9th October 2005, 20:39
Already apologised for not going this year. It falls on FAJs birthday.

The top WF Cadets only get back from Bratislava on the previous Monday. Many Sabreurs are away the previous weekend as well.

Competition Fatigue.

frazzled
-9th October 2005, 21:14
Originally posted by PM1
Shame on you !!!:mad:

I know, I know. I should be ashamed but the lad is knackered and so is my car!!

Baldric Jr.
-11th October 2005, 18:59
Oh well. We have to travel for ages to get there so i am trying my hand at epee on the second day. pray for me. :grin:

Baldric
-11th October 2005, 19:04
Originally posted by Foilling Around
Already apologised for not going this year. It falls on FAJs birthday.



I seem to remember that it fell on her birthday last year, and she celebrated by winning it!

Baldric
-11th October 2005, 19:05
Originally posted by Baldric Jr.
Oh well. We have to travel for ages to get there so i am trying my hand at epee on the second day. pray for me. :grin:

Pray for me too. I have to watch! :grin:

Baldric Jr.
-11th October 2005, 19:10
Originally posted by Baldric
Pray for me too. I have to watch! :grin:

I find that very insulting and shall be cutting off Baldric's jelly baby supply for a week as punishment. :)

Touché Turtle
-11th October 2005, 19:57
Baldric Jr, I can safely say that as a parent, watching your child fence and being completely unable to help is A LOT more nerve wracking than fencing yourself.
I am sure thats all Baldric meant, nothing to do with your actual fencing I'm sure!! ;) :rolleyes:

iron maiden fan
-12th October 2005, 10:34
yeh, got through arent i great.........ok, it was by default cos there were only 3 guys in the age group but who cares.

Barry Flood
-12th October 2005, 12:46
Must remember to put a supply of Jelly Babies at the check in for Baldric.
Still a shortage of Under 16 Boys Epeeists, It can not be because it is in Gateshead, as most of the entries in the other weapons are from London, South and South West. Maybe it's a dying weapon with fencers switching to the more interesting weapons, such as sabre or foil !!!!

Baldric Jr.
-12th October 2005, 15:01
Originally posted by Touché Turtle

I am sure thats all Baldric meant, nothing to do with your actual fencing I'm sure!! ;) :rolleyes:

You obviously don't know my father dearest....

Baldric
-12th October 2005, 16:41
Originally posted by Baldric Jr.
You obviously don't know my father dearest....

OI! Get on with your homework!

:mad: :mad: :confused: :eek:

Baldric
-12th October 2005, 16:42
Originally posted by Barry Flood
Must remember to put a supply of Jelly Babies at the check in for Baldric.


Sounds good. Other organisers please take note!!!!

Barry Flood
-27th October 2005, 12:14
Closing date is today, but still time for fencers to enter by e-mail.
The entry for the under 16 boys epee is abysmal, no other word for it. I am sure that there is an explanation somewhere. It can not be the venue or travelling as all other weapons show an increase or very close to last year. The greater percentage of entries are from the South/South West.

Meneldil
-27th October 2005, 12:41
How many U16 Boys Epeeists are there? :-/

Louis CB
-27th October 2005, 13:18
Originally posted by Barry Flood
Closing date is today, but still time for fencers to enter by e-mail.
The entry for the under 16 boys epee is abysmal, no other word for it. I am sure that there is an explanation somewhere. It can not be the venue or travelling as all other weapons show an increase or very close to last year. The greater percentage of entries are from the South/South West.

Um, actually I think it IS the venue - at least in part.

I was very keen to go to the EYC's, but The Parents put their foot down - me dad's not exactly keen to spend his weekend in Newcastle (no offence!). And normally we are a *very* committed fencing family...

I'm afraid I can't think of any other reason...I'm sure someone will pop up and say that this part of the season is overcrowded, but I actually think it's quite nicely spaced out between comps.

Meneldil - wish you the best of luck - hope you get a medal of a golden hue.:cool:

-L C-B.

Barry Flood
-27th October 2005, 14:47
Only under 16 boys epee is affected by where the venue is?
Doesn't seem to be bothering the other weapons, maybe the other weapons want to fence for England.

Louis CB
-27th October 2005, 15:55
I can't speak for the other weapons because I don't know where the majority of competitors for those weapons live. Neither do I actually know the competitors. :)

I don't think it's fair of you to say we (boy Epeeists, that is) don't want to fence for England - most of the guys I know fence for *Britain*.

If it helps at all I'll ask around a little - I actually thought most of the Squad was going up to Gateshead but obviously I was wrong...

Baldric
-27th October 2005, 16:09
Originally posted by Barry Flood
Doesn't seem to be bothering the other weapons, maybe the other weapons want to fence for England.

Given the way the selection criteria have been altered, I wouldn't make the trip for that reason.

We will be there to support England Fencing in general, but the selection criteria are so vague (other that 1st place) that it hardly has any impact on Jnrs motivation.

Louis CB
-27th October 2005, 16:16
Having taken a look around, I can't actually find ANY selection criteria rules.

I was planning to come just because I wanted to get a comp in before Bonn, but maybe this does explain why there are few entries - a friend of mine says the EYCs qualify you for the 'Five Nations' but I've never heard of this before...

Maybe it'd help if there was more readily available information around?

Baldric
-27th October 2005, 16:24
Originally posted by Louis CB
Having taken a look around, I can't actually find ANY selection criteria rules.

I was planning to come just because I wanted to get a comp in before Bonn, but maybe this does explain why there are few entries - a friend of mine says the EYCs qualify you for the 'Five Nations' but I've never heard of this before...

Maybe it'd help if there was more readily available information around?

Hi Louis

The competition referred to is the Junior Quad - U16 and u18 all weapons team comp between England, Scotland, Wales and NI.
Normally held in February I believe

In previous years, England selected their team based on the result at the EYCs - 1st and 2nd definitely went, and 3rd almost always went.

This year the rules have changed. 1st will definitely go, but after that, the selectors will choose based on loyalty to EF, past results for EF, current ranking (which ranking, no-one can tell me).

Basically, the power of the EYCs in the selection process has been reduced by two thirds, to be replaced by a completely non-transparent process.

Deja Vu anyone?

marg
-27th October 2005, 16:33
Yes, I believe the selection rules have changed and this means there is less incentive for fencers to bother going. Shame really, the BYC's used to do the selection taking the top 3 or 4 fencers for the England team. It was a chance to have a go at knocking out some top seeds and making it onto the team, everyone had an equal chance too. The EYCs carried on from that but now the rules have changed and the incentive has gone.:(

Baldric
-27th October 2005, 16:36
Here are the new selection criteria

Junior/Cadet Selection – Home International 25/26th Feb 2006
· Selection with take place after 1st November (tbc) 2005.
· For each team of under 18s and under 16s there will be 4 people selected.
· Provided that the fencer is eligible and has a good disciplinary record the first places will be the winner of the EYCs in each weapon.
· Subsequent places will be selected from the rankings.
· Selectors may also take into consideration any factors including, but not limited to, injury, previous support and past results for England.

source document here (http://www.englandfencing.org.uk/index.php?module=announce&ANN_id=58&ANN_user_op=view)

I have tried asking which rankings will be used by email, and I even tried asking the board member responsible at the England AGM, but have not yet had an answer.

Baldric
-27th October 2005, 16:38
Originally posted by Baldric

Selectors may also take into consideration any factors including, but not limited to

Thats the key phrase that allows the selectors to pick anyone they like!

Barry Flood
-27th October 2005, 16:40
And I hope that it will be changed back for next year !!!
I have made my views known and I am campaigning hard.
(thinks, mustn't forget Baldric's jelly babies)

Baldric
-27th October 2005, 16:41
Originally posted by Barry Flood
And I hope that it will be changed back for next year !!!
I have made my views known and I am campaigning hard.
(thinks, mustn't forget Baldric's jelly babies)

Attaboy Barry! (on both counts):grin: :grin: :grin:

cesh_fencing
-27th October 2005, 20:10
Have a feeling you are short of Pentathletes in the Epee as I doubt any of them from the SE/S/SW will be turning up as the good ones have been training all week in Aldershot and probably want a day or two of their half term at home.

Also I know alot of my fencers are either away on hols as it is 1/2 term weekend or resting after several weeks of fencing and preparing for the BYC Qualifiers which are next weekend.

Foilling Around
-27th October 2005, 20:22
The fact is that there are no rankings relevant to the U16 and U18 Category.

The only thing you could do is to take the Cadet and Junior rankings, strip out the non English and those over age and pick from those left.

Alternatively you could take the adult rankings and perform the same operations.

There are no other rankings to look at.

In either event FA Junior is the top Under 16, Saturday is her Birthday (that is why she's not going) and she competed in the Quad last year. By rights therefore she should recieve a phone call of invitation.

We'll see what happens.

Foilling Around
-27th October 2005, 20:25
Originally posted by Baldric
Deja Vu anyone?

Deja vu again actually!

PM1
-27th October 2005, 22:56
Lots to be discussed re the quads I'm sure, not least of all a potential change in the age groups, which has been banded about for the last 2 years to my certain knowledge, and the crowded calendar.

If selection is to be from the rankings, there will ave to be decisions made as to which ranking list and from when WELL before the next season begins.

And if the hope of many of us is that youngsters will not be expected to compete in the top end senior comps, the senior ranking lists are not an option, IMHO. Clear rules, clear guidelines, in good time.

(Phew - and that's on 3 double g&t's and not having won the quiz - again...)

Look forward to seeing those who go to the comp on Saturday (and happy b'day FA jnr).

Baldric
-28th October 2005, 00:33
The effect of changing the qualification for the quads has two sides to the coin.

Until now, I had only thought that people might not enter because the chances of qualifying had been reduced.

However, tonight I saw the other side - I understand that two excellent fencers will not be travelling to Gateshead because their ranking is so high that they are "expecting" to be picked regardless.

So now we have a double whammy - the "probables" won't enter because they believe that they will be picked anyway, and the "possibles" won't enter because the chances of earning a selection have been reduced by two thirds.

Under the old system, selections were made based on 1, 2 and (usually) 3 from the EYC. 18 fencers were happy, and the other 100 odd wished they had fenced better.

Under the new system, 18 fencers will be happy, and about 20 or 30 will have good grounds for feeling that they were cheated.

In WF I can see 7 fencers with a good claim.

1) Whoever wins the EYC
2) FA junior, who has fought twice for England before, and is 1st ranked eligible fencer but who won't go to Gateshead
3) Laura Delaney, who has never fought for England to my knowledge, but is 2nd ranked
4) Liz Ng who is 3rd ranked, and has fought twice for England before, very successfully but will not compete at Gateshead this year
5) Lara Kerrison, who has never fought for England before, but is next ranked, and may or may not enter the EYC
5) Philippa Mullins, who has never entered to my knowledge, but is the next ranked
6) Karine Pawel, who entered last year, and got a last 8, which is more than Lara, Laura and Phillippa, but has no track record for England, but is next in the ranking
7) Baldric Jnr, who is next in ranking, but did fight for England last year, in the winning team

Any three or four of these (or possibly someone else, if they get a surprise win) may get to represent England in the next quad. All the non selected fencers will have good cause to feel that they were hard done by!

27ab1c
-28th October 2005, 11:34
I'm Welsh, so I'm having trouble with the term 'selection criteria' in relation to young fencers.

Most of the time, the Welsh selectors - hard-working and consciencious every one - get it right, or at least can justify their selections. However, without clear selection criteria, the selectors are leaving themselves open to flak.

We do, in Wales, have an under-18 all-weapon ranking table, for what it's worth, which was last updated in July. But this is an 'aid' to selectors, not a selection mechanism.

Senior selection is now more open, with laid-down selection criteria, although the Welsh senior ranking tables were last updated in May.

Ask any high-jumper: it's easier to get over the bar when you can see how high it is.

ChubbyHubby
-28th October 2005, 11:57
IMHO people go to competitions for 3 main reasons:

1. Points (e.g. Opens)
EYCs don't and can't offer any
2. Selection (e.g. like EYC used to be)
You don't have to go to get selected
3. Presitage (e.g. Public Schools Champs)
Going there to beat 5 other fencers don't exactly get you street cred.

If selection is effectively "at selector's discretion" what's the point of holding the EYC's at all?

In fact, would you not be creating a weaker team? ie. the good ones stay away, a not-so-good fencer ends up winning it ensuring you have one weak memeber of the team.

Or worse, the person ends up winning will most likely be the reserve in most matches, because the fencers selected by discretion will be stronger fencers.

So you go there and win a hollow victory, get selected but end up being the reserve that gets a couple of fights?

Can the EYC's not be moved to later in the year (away from the "weekends at sports hall" month of October?)? and give it more importance?

Insipiens
-28th October 2005, 12:10
Originally posted by ChubbyHubby
IMHO people go to competitions for 3 main reasons:

1. Points (e.g. Opens)
EYCs don't and can't offer any
2. Selection (e.g. like EYC used to be)
You don't have to go to get selected
3. Presitage (e.g. Public Schools Champs)
Going there to beat 5 other fencers don't exactly get you street cred.

If selection is effectively "at selector's discretion" what's the point of holding the EYC's at all?

The Scots were having a big argument on the board about whether there should be a Scottish champion without a championships. Maybe people do the EYC's to be able to say they are English Champion. Their (non-fencing) friends will not know there were only six competitors.:cool:

ChubbyHubby
-28th October 2005, 12:57
Originally posted by Insipiens
The Scots were having a big argument on the board about whether there should be a Scottish champion without a championships. Maybe people do the EYC's to be able to say they are English Champion. Their (non-fencing) friends will not know there were only six competitors.:cool:

Well yes, there is the PR angle. Stick "England U18 Champ" on your CV and non fencers won't know any better.

Insipiens
-28th October 2005, 14:47
Originally posted by ChubbyHubby
Well yes, there is the PR angle. Stick "England U18 Champ" on your CV and non fencers won't know any better.
Not PR, Glory.:sun:
What else is sport about? :rolleyes:

ChubbyHubby
-28th October 2005, 15:06
Originally posted by Insipiens
Not PR, Glory.:sun:
What else is sport about? :rolleyes:

http://i.wp.pl/a/f/pjpeg/8090/gruchala_3_384.jpg ????


:transport :grin:

Foilling Around
-28th October 2005, 15:53
Come on ChubHub we had a Sylvia Gruchala thread some while ago!

Seriously, if England put out its strongest team, it would wipe the floor with the rest so I am not bothered about England having a weakened team.

I don't want to get into naming individuals at WF because I have to work with them on a GB basis. However Laura D is too old for Under 16 and I am not sure whether Lara can represent England. She can't for the commonwealths as she is Isle of Man but I don't know if this applies to the Quad

ChubbyHubby
-28th October 2005, 16:04
Originally posted by Foilling Around
Come on ChubHub we had a Sylvia Gruchala thread some while ago!
Numerous threads I think. But didn't think people would get bored of it. ;)


Originally posted by Foilling Around

Seriously, if England put out its strongest team, it would wipe the floor with the rest so I am not bothered about England having a weakened team.


But wouldn't raising the standard of the Quads also raise the presitage of the competition? Leading to more people wanting to do it, increasing compeition and entry numbers for the EYCs?

Peter Pan
-28th October 2005, 17:54
Originally posted by Foilling Around

Seriously, if England put out its strongest team, it would wipe the floor with the rest so I am not bothered about England having a weakened team.



Hmm.. a tad over-confident Mr FA I think?

Off the top of my head doesn't Scotland have 2 of the top 6 MF cadets, 3 of top 9 WF and 3/8 WS cadets? Oh and British cadet WS and MF champions? And silver in ME cadets?

But as I said, that's just off the top of my head - I really must check - you could be right!!!!!

Bring on your best team, I say!

Foilling Around
-28th October 2005, 18:13
One of the advantages of being English is that you don't just think you're the best, you KNOW you're the best.

Problem is that just makes it even worse when you get beaten!!!

Meneldil
-30th October 2005, 17:55
Now that the EYCs are over - congrats to Chris Hay, who took me to the cleaner's in the final! Well done! :)

Also well done to all the other winners, but I don't know who they are. ;)

PM1
-30th October 2005, 18:21
'tother thread has yesterday's results, and will have today's shortly.;)

Twohat
-30th October 2005, 18:27
Have to say what a brilliantly run competition. Barry and the North East team know how to run a comp. Great idea to have the pistes roped off, organisation was slick and efficient - everything went on time as far as I could tell. Fantastic.

The day was only marred by Moppet bombing out in the first round DE. Her knee injury didn't help, but it was a shame to throw away all the hard work of getting to first place after the poules.

Well done everyone - I watched some good fencing.

SalleRoseCoach
-30th October 2005, 21:42
Just back after a 5hr drive south. It was certainly worth it. An excellently run competition, in superb facilities. Well done.
Hope the support for it strengthens next year as they certainly deserve it.

D'Artignan
-30th October 2005, 22:00
Originally posted by Peter Pan
Hmm.. a tad over-confident Mr FA I think?

Off the top of my head doesn't Scotland have 2 of the top 6 MF cadets, 3 of top 9 WF and 3/8 WS cadets? Oh and British cadet WS and MF champions? And silver in ME cadets?

But as I said, that's just off the top of my head - I really must check - you could be right!!!!!

Bring on your best team, I say! Fighting talk PP, I like it. :tongue:

Moppet
-30th October 2005, 23:18
The day was only marred by Moppet bombing out in the first round DE. Her knee injury didn't help, but it was a shame to throw away all the hard work of getting to first place after the poules.

*sigh* :(