PDA

View Full Version : World Youth Champs



Pages : [1] 2

tigger
-7th April 2006, 09:57
Thought we should start a new thread ready for all the results coming in!

The official website is http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/

The first events are on Sunday -
Men's Cadet Sabre and Women's Cadet Foil

Good luck to all the Brits.

Sabre Dude
-7th April 2006, 11:23
hmmmmm I wonder what the betting is that Alex wins the Junior sabre? He came 15th last year, so I think we are looking at the very least at a podium position

D'Artignan
-7th April 2006, 13:31
Hmmm, no pressure there, then Sabre Dude...

Good luck everyone, especialy Ed Jeffries. Wonder how he'll cope without all my duff advice?:rolleyes:

Boo Boo
-7th April 2006, 13:50
Originally posted by Sabre Dude
hmmmmm I wonder what the betting is that Alex wins the Junior sabre? He came 15th last year, so I think we are looking at the very least at a podium position

Yes, very good luck to Alex and the rest.

No pressure, just the 110% support and best wishes of everyone back here :)

Boo

tigger
-7th April 2006, 14:28
All things are possible - but he's only 17 so give him a break! Though I wouldn't bet against a very big result before he becomes a senior...

Exgeordielass
-7th April 2006, 14:31
Good luck to all Brits :grin:

Especially to all the sabreurs
:sabre:

Sabre Dude
-7th April 2006, 14:45
Originally posted by tigger
All things are possible - but he's only 17 so give him a break! Though I wouldn't bet against a very big result before he becomes a senior...

I don't mean to put pressure on him, I am just suggesting that the standard at which he is fencing should get him a medal.

Louis CB
-7th April 2006, 14:57
Good luck to you all - especially the epeeists. Kick some arse!

AussieMongrel
-8th April 2006, 00:52
Good luck to Rebecca Carson and Kira Roberts in the cadets and Jo Jo in the Junior girls and of course everyone else.

Neil Brown
-8th April 2006, 02:19
Team all here in Korea safely, I'm sending this from the press centre.
Day of meetings today, Saturday, first 2 events start tomorrow at 8am & 9am & results will probably be up as the day goes on.

Plymouth Fencer
-8th April 2006, 12:02
Good luck everyone! Do us proud. Rule Britannia!!!
Good luck to all the cadet sabreurs especially Rebecca Carson. Will be watching the results go up as and when.
JR
xxx

Foilling Around
-8th April 2006, 21:51
From the website it looks like the results will be updated in real time, or close to it. so it will be a long night for me as FAJ starts at 1am our time.

Fortunately the Cricket starts at about 4am so I won't get too bored!

63 is a small number for the WF, there were 85 in Linz last year

Foilling Around
-8th April 2006, 21:52
Oh and silly me good luck to our fellow East Midlander Joe Brightman.

Do us proud Guys!

Neil Brown
-9th April 2006, 05:18
The results on the web site are going up as soon as they're back with the DT, a few minutes after the fights. The results pages have a time stamp at the bottom of the page.

Korea is 8 hours ahead.

Keith.A.Smith
-9th April 2006, 07:15
Dear All,

Our best result on day 1 was Alex Crutchett who made the top 32 in the MS cadet competition.

The standards are as expected very high.

Best wishes,

Keith

Foilling Around
-9th April 2006, 09:26
:(


Well done Anthony

gbm
-9th April 2006, 09:53
There is so much congestion on this video feed:

mms://vod2.igbs.co.kr/live2

VeeSix
-9th April 2006, 11:22
It's working great for me - at the moment :)

gbm
-9th April 2006, 11:41
Must just be me then - but in my case it's unwatchable.

Foilling Around
-9th April 2006, 12:40
Fanny Kreiss (Hun) just won the WF at a canter.

Quite right too, having watched and refereed her a couple of time this year she is an absolutely class fencer.

Looking through the entries for both MS and WF it is mostly the major European nations which have sent fencers. Smaller fencing nations have only sent specific fencers presumably those they think have a good chance of reaching a certain stage.

This has lead to a reduction in numbers of about 30% over the entry in Linz 2005 in each of the first 2 events. Judging by Keith's comments this would have pushed up the average standard.

Boo Boo
-9th April 2006, 18:45
For those too lazy too look the results up, GB results...

Cadet Women's Foil - 64 entries:
36th Laura Delany
49th Elizabeth Ng
59th Catriona Sibert

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/FDCCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Cadet Men's Sabre - 56 entries:
31st Alex Crutchett
34th Tom Mottershead
40th Joe Brightman

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/SMCCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Jan O'C
-9th April 2006, 23:50
Originally posted by Foilling Around
:(


Well done Anthony


I think you probably mean Alex. Its Alex Crutchett (the younger of the two brothers) who is in Korea at the moment.

Not wishing to be picky but its hard enough being the younger sibling without someone taking away your moment of glory by calling you your older brother's name.

Anyway, well done Alexander. Your friends at Brentwood, including us, are very pleased for you. Grace, Kirsty and Laura also send you their love and congratulations

Gangsta G
-10th April 2006, 02:24
Well done everyone so far. To have 8/9 making the cut is a real achievement. Looks like Kira and Rebecca will have real tough fights in the 64 and 32 respectively. Best of luck, girls - and Jessica as well of course.

Gangsta G
-10th April 2006, 02:53
Cadet WS L64 results just up: Kira Roberts out to no. 34 seed 15/11, Jessica Davies 15/12 to no. 25. Unlucky girls - both really close to the 32.

Good luck to Rebecca in the 32.

I'm off to bed...

AussieMongrel
-10th April 2006, 07:16
Well Done Bex, 20th in the world in Cadets is awesome :grin: :yoda: :party:

Keith.A.Smith
-10th April 2006, 07:43
Dear All,

Day 2 has produced another top 32 in the sabre with Rebecca Carson making this very promising result.

One of the halls ended up partially flooding today as it is a tent and it began to rain very heavily. This resulted in accidents etc before the competition was moved.(unfortunately including our Oliver in the ME). It is also cold and so condensation made the pistes very slippery and the Koreans are going to try to dry out the hall tonight.

Tomorrow the MF and WE are being held in two different halls about 15 minutes apart to avoid the raining indoors problem.

I will give another update tomorrow.

Glad to see people following the results so far.

Keith

Neil Brown
-10th April 2006, 07:48
It's all gone a bit pear-shaped here after the rain!

Many world championships are held in temporary buildings, often a tent in a field. This one has a superior tent-in-a-field with 20 pistes, equipment stand, medical & organisers desks but crucially it wasn't waterproof.

The pistes were wet & slippery & the referees mostly forced the fencers to continue with disasterous consequences for Oliver Baybut-Peyton, he slipped & pulled a muscle which stopped him completing the pool. Some of the pools had stopped by then but the referee on Oli's pool then, incredibly, tried to move his injured body out of the way to plug in the next fencers; they declined.

The organisers then put another 4 pistes in the show hall & the pools continued. It's 3:45 now & the event is back on schedule.

One of tomorrow's events (WE) will now be in the training hall (10 minutes drive from the venue) until the L32.

More rain tomorrow but perhaps the hall will have a tarpaulin over the roof by then, that's the plan.

Neil Brown
-10th April 2006, 07:57
Keith & I are the only 2 British fencers still at the venue now & have talked our way into the press room. We didn't know the other was writing the last 2 posts obviously.

Baldric
-10th April 2006, 08:54
Originally posted by Neil Brown

The pistes were wet & slippery & the referees mostly forced the fencers to continue with disasterous consequences for Oliver Baybut-Peyton, he slipped & pulled a muscle which stopped him completing the pool.

What a b*gger for Ollie!

and what was the ref thinking of?????

Flick
-10th April 2006, 08:59
Well Done Becky!

pinkelephant
-10th April 2006, 09:28
Originally posted by Neil Brown
It's all gone a bit pear-shaped here after the rain!

Many world championships are held in temporary buildings, often a tent in a field. This one has a superior tent-in-a-field with 20 pistes, equipment stand, medical & organisers desks but crucially it wasn't waterproof.

The pistes were wet & slippery & the referees mostly forced the fencers to continue with disasterous consequences for Oliver Baybut-Peyton, he slipped & pulled a muscle which stopped him completing the pool. Some of the pools had stopped by then but the referee on Oli's pool then, incredibly, tried to move his injured body out of the way to plug in the next fencers; they declined.

The organisers then put another 4 pistes in the show hall & the pools continued. It's 3:45 now & the event is back on schedule.

One of tomorrow's events (WE) will now be in the training hall (10 minutes drive from the venue) until the L32.


More rain tomorrow but perhaps the hall will have a tarpaulin over the roof by then, that's the plan.

Who was the referee? The documentation isn't listing them.

Jan O'C
-10th April 2006, 09:49
Well done Bex (and also dad/coach Phil) - that late night training in the gym obviously paid off.

How devastating for Oliver. All that effort to qualify, travelling so far (and so expensive) and then having to pull out through injury caused by organisers' lack of foresight. I'd be so cross if that was Alex. Huge sympathies to Oliver and his family.

I can receive e-mails from Alex and Tim but they can't seem to pick up my replies. Tim said that the transport is a joke. Hotel is almost an hour from the venue and they have had to wait up to an additional hour (7.30 - 8.30 am) in the pouring rain because the coach didn't arrive. Also because they are so far from the venue, its too expensive to use taxis. I hardly think this is the best way for our young athletes to do well - it must be making training more difficult just from a logistical point of view. You can hardly train in the morning and go back in the afternoon/evening for more training.

Certainly the venues (I've been for the past 3 years - Sicily, Bulgaria & Austria) aren't comparable to those used for the Senior Worlds but they haven't been too bad. This one doesn't sound as good and obviously the huge distance from hotel to venue is a major problem. Sicily, Bulgaria and Austria were a few minutes by taxi.

Anyway, it is what it is, so good luck to all fencers still to compete.

Louis CB
-10th April 2006, 09:53
Wow, commiserations to Ollie - bad luck indeed.

Well done to Matt Edgar for making the 64 - winning 4 out of 6 fights in your poule at the World's ain't bad!

Hard luck to Ben White - although he's got a few years left in the Cadets so I'm sure he'll make it up somehow. :)

Good luck to all those who have yet to fight!:tongue:

-Louis CB

ChubbyHubby
-10th April 2006, 10:17
What time do the finals start?

Been looking at the live feed and thought the finals were supposed to start at 18.30 localtime (9.30 UK time?).

So far all I can see is some bloke walking around the finals piste in the dark.

ChubbyHubby
-10th April 2006, 11:11
Looks like we are 8hrs behind not 9hrs?The finals started at 10.30 our time. The live feed itself is not as a good as the WCSN live feed for Leipzig last year, but not bad and it's free!

Sabre Dude
-10th April 2006, 11:39
Originally posted by gbm
There is so much congestion on this video feed:

mms://vod2.igbs.co.kr/live2

Who is actually fencing in this video?

gbm
-10th April 2006, 11:41
Finally it works for me!

Is all women's sabre that, um, squealish and unfriendly?

Rebecca Ward just won.

Sabre Dude
-10th April 2006, 11:48
It is quite slow on my computer. How long did it take to load up from yours?

Prometheus
-10th April 2006, 11:52
Wicas deserved that win - very nice technique.

gbm
-10th April 2006, 11:53
On mine I just wasn't getting enough of a stream to actually use - it wasn't a matter of how long I waited I just wasn't getting it fast enough!

PS What happened in the middle of the ME fight? There was that strange break with both fencers looking confused...

Boo Boo
-10th April 2006, 12:00
Originally posted by gbm
Rebecca Ward just won.

Wow, Gold, Silver and Bronze for the USA for WS - that is impressive!

Boo

Boo Boo
-10th April 2006, 12:06
Women's Sabre, 52 entries:
20th Rebeccas Carson
35th Kira Roberts
40th Jessica Davies

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/SFCCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Men's Epee, 75 entries:
36th Matt Edgar
61st Ben White
74th Oliver Baybut-Peyton

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/EMCCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Sounds like a bit of an organisational nightmare out there :(

Sabre Dude
-10th April 2006, 12:17
Any other videos avaliable?

Gangsta G
-10th April 2006, 12:23
What an absolute disgrace. How could the organisers make such a cock-up??? Surely there will be serious reprecussions after this disaster with the rain? We may well complain about the organisation of competitions like Leicester, but at least they're held in waterproof builidings... Comiserations to Oli B-P.

Boo Boo
-10th April 2006, 12:37
Originally posted by Gangsta G
What an absolute disgrace. How could the organisers make such a cock-up??? Surely there will be serious reprecussions after this disaster with the rain? We may well complain about the organisation of competitions like Leicester, but at least they're held in waterproof builidings... Comiserations to Oli B-P.

Looking at the website, I wonder if the city is still in the process of constructing its sports facilities? Maybe they weren't complete on time, so the organisers had to set up temporary venues?

Still a disgrace obviously - especially that the venues are not waterproof and the training hall being so inaccessible from the hotel... really not practical at all :(

Hope that our teams manage to put this out of their minds, whilst competing, and go on to achieve the results that they are capable of :)

Boo

Epeecurean
-10th April 2006, 12:38
Originally posted by Neil Brown
The pistes were wet & slippery & the referees mostly forced the fencers to continue with disasterous consequences for Oliver Baybut-Peyton, he slipped & pulled a muscle which stopped him completing the pool. Some of the pools had stopped by then but the referee on Oli's pool then, incredibly, tried to move his injured body out of the way to plug in the next fencers; they declined.


Poules/pools, seems like the American spelling is very apropos in this instance!

Maybe the Koreans on to something good here. After all swimming and aquatic events get several Olympic medals for every variety of stroke and distance imaginable - fencing should go aquatic!

Sorry Ollie had to pay the price for pioneering this new sport.

gbm
-10th April 2006, 12:39
It's not so much that the sports hall did get wet - that's a bit of a disaster, but one that presumably could have been coped with.

The real cause of the disaster is that they didn't pull the plug on that hall as soon as it got wet... utterly ridiculous to fence on a wet piste!

D'Artignan
-10th April 2006, 12:41
Originally posted by gbm
It's not so much that the sports hall did get wet - that's a bit of a disaster, but one that presumably could have been coped with.

The real disaster is that they didn't pull the plug on that hall as soon as it got wet... utterly ridiculous to fence on a wet piste! :tumble::tongue:

Foilling Around
-10th April 2006, 12:45
I know that there were many reservations about this venue in advance. They seem to have been well founded.

Boo Boo
-10th April 2006, 12:49
Originally posted by gbm
It's not so much that the sports hall did get wet - that's a bit of a disaster, but one that presumably could have been coped with.

The real cause of the disaster is that they didn't pull the plug on that hall as soon as it got wet... utterly ridiculous to fence on a wet piste!

I liked the bit about the referee trying to kick our poor injured fencer's body aside to carry on fencing on that piste... wonder what was going through the referee's mind "oh look, another one down, lets just push his immobile body onto that heap of injured fencers in the corner and get on with the next fight..." :confused:

Boo

The KB
-10th April 2006, 13:20
Just got back from the WS final (against two USA girls Vloka and Ward)... refereeing was absolutely appauling!! 14-14 and the referee decides he doesnt know the difference between attack counter attack :(

Poor Vloka!! she must have been absolutely gutted.. there was a lot of booing from the whole stadium directly afterwards.. :tongue:

A wet day though! Only just stopped raining from this morning :( Good luck all you fencers tomorrow!!

:party:

tigger
-10th April 2006, 16:12
Saw it online this morning - Vloka was the better fencer, but hit the self-destruct button in the second half. Reffing was indeed pretty abysmal, and Vloka should have won!

Does anyone know what the two red cards (1 each) before the start of the first ME semi final were for??

GKB
-10th April 2006, 16:25
The Italian got his for his name being too high (wrongly positioned) on his back and the Suiss for the writing being too faint.
Makes you wonder what weapon control was for - shouldn't they have got the red cards ??
Big panic about kid's sabre lame being too faint (the LP lightweight) but it passed weapon control....:transport

Sabre Dude
-10th April 2006, 16:36
Originally posted by tigger
Saw it online this morning - Vloka....

Where did you see it?

ChubbyHubby
-10th April 2006, 16:56
Originally posted by Sabre Dude
Where did you see it?

You can only see it "live" on their website, and they don't have a achive of the video.

I have recorded it but there is no where to put it online because of bandwidth issues.

Keith.A.Smith
-11th April 2006, 05:11
Dear All,

Organisation back on track almost. Wet venue of yesterday now fully dried out and yes it it is raining.

Pools were fenced in it without problem today.

Training venue is not inaccesible from hotel but is 35 minutes from hotel but on route to venue.

they are using the traing hall for WE pools only.

The main hall looks very good indeed as do the finals.

GB results a little disappointing today so far with 3 x L 64 in the MF but Marcus did draw last years world champion in the last 64 and fenced very well.

The girls in WE all through pols but they now have to wait several hours till DE starts back in main competition venue.

Best wishes to all,

Keith

Foilling Around
-11th April 2006, 08:54
Great so far for the WE girls with all 3 into the L32. Go girls, lets finish on a high note.

Twohat
-11th April 2006, 08:56
You just beat me to it!

Fantastic! All three winning their L64 DEs!

Good luck for the next round.

tigger
-11th April 2006, 09:18
Corinna just took out the no 1 seed to make the L16!!

pinkelephant
-11th April 2006, 09:37
Sissy and Abbi now out - Sissy only by 15-14.

Foilling Around
-11th April 2006, 09:59
Originally posted by Foilling Around
Great so far for the WE girls with all 3 into the L32. Go girls, lets finish on a high note.

I should have said let us finish the Cadet section on a high note. And Corinna is doing just that!

Threestain
-11th April 2006, 10:06
Corinna is now into the last 8. Fantastic. Hopefully she's got a taste for the Polish now!

tigger
-11th April 2006, 10:11
Brilliant performance so far! So pleased for her and Andy

And still another year in cadets left....

Sabre Dude
-11th April 2006, 10:13
When does the junior sabre start?

GKB
-11th April 2006, 10:26
tomorrow morning with Junior men's. Go Alex !!:sabre:

Threestain
-11th April 2006, 10:35
Unfortunately Corinna lost 15-12 in the last 8.

However, that's a brilliant result!

I think celebrations in Plymouth as a result. Definitely in fact!

haining
-11th April 2006, 10:36
A superb effort by Corinna to get to L8 and only just lost 15-12.... well done !!!

pinkelephant
-11th April 2006, 10:37
Fantastic. Perhasps epee will stop being the poor relation now!

ChubbyHubby
-11th April 2006, 10:47
Looks like they are putting downloadable video files of previous day's events on fencingchanngel.tv website.

Just downloaded WF Cadet and MS Cadet

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2006, 11:01
Well done Rebecca! 20th is excellent, I'm so pleased for you and your Dad, all that hard work paid off!

And Corinna! Well, we'll be waiting for you to get back to celebrate! Told you you had it in you! Hehe. Well done. To hold your nerve against the 1st seed, thats talent!

xxx

Keith.A.Smith
-11th April 2006, 11:12
Congratulations to Corinna Lawrence and her coach Andy Hill on Corinna making the World Championships top 8 at Women's cadet Epee.

This was an excellent result and well supported by Elisa Albini and Abbi Matthews making the to 32 with Elisa only losing 15-14.

Corinna fenced splendidly today and only lost 15-12 in the top 8.

Well done once again from a much happier President.

the Junior events start tommorrow morning with WF and MS.

keith

pinkelephant
-11th April 2006, 12:36
So Courtney Hurley keeps the World Chanpionship in the family after her sister won it last year. Are there any more of them?

Foilling Around
-11th April 2006, 12:41
With 50% of the Gold medals and 25% of the total medals at cadet level, what are the Americans doing right that the rest of the world (apart from the Italians maybe) could learn from?

Boo Boo
-11th April 2006, 12:47
Originally posted by Foilling Around
With 50% of the Gold medals and 25% of the total medals at cadet level, what are the Americans doing right that the rest of the world (apart from the Italians maybe) could learn from?

Ooooh, am so tempted to rise to this :)

Fantastic result from Corinna :)

Boo

Gav
-11th April 2006, 12:54
Originally posted by Sabre Dude
Any other videos avaliable?

There's stuff on www.fencingchannel.com.

I believe the event is being broadcast on WCSN. You'll need to spoof yourself as an american resident and pay - but you will get good coverage if you do.

Rhi
-11th April 2006, 13:04
Well done Crin, you kicked some serious foreign butt!
From everyone back in Plym congrats! Celebrations for when you get back hun!

Oh and by the way Epee rocks and in case noone else has noticed GBR epeeists in general have got the best results this cadet world champs, so bring on some encouragement for the best weapon ever hehe!

Well done to all cadet fencers, ESPECIALLY THE EPEEISTS!

Loads of Love Rhi xxxxxxx

ChubbyHubby
-11th April 2006, 13:14
Originally posted by Gav
There's stuff on www.fencingchannel.com.

I believe the event is being broadcast on WCSN. You'll need to spoof yourself as an american resident and pay - but you will get good coverage if you do.

I actually think WCSN is telling porkies in their schedule.

Can't find any coverage on there unforuntely. Otherwise it is usually the best place to view streams

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2006, 13:16
Well done Crin, you kicked some serious foreign butt!

It has to be said, that the result, has mirrored the amount of time and effort Corinna put in to training for this event. She really showed what she can do! Absolutely amazing. A well deserved result in my opinion and we're all really pleased for her.

Good luck in the juniors!

And good luck to all the GBR fencers still waiting to compete (especially the Sabreurs!)

Gav
-11th April 2006, 13:43
Originally posted by ChubbyHubby
I actually think WCSN is telling porkies in their schedule.

Can't find any coverage on there unforuntely. Otherwise it is usually the best place to view streams

I hadn't actually tried it yet - been too busy. I was just going to watch the archived streams afterwards (assuming they were available) or get the DVDs. Th

From what I've seen the footage is extremely high quality. Wonder if FP would be interested in filming the British Champs?

Boo Boo
-11th April 2006, 13:46
Cadet Women's Epee, 72 entries:
8th Corinna Lawrence
22nd Abbi Matthews
31st Elisa Albini

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/EFCCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Cadet Men's Foil, 81 entries:
35th Marcus Mepstead
45th Ed Jefferies
52nd Daniel Robinson

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/FCMCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Pat McGroyne
-11th April 2006, 13:49
From what I've seen the footage is extremely high quality. Wonder if FP would be interested in filming the British Champs?

What's the point of having good footage of crap fencing?
I can see the adverts now....

FencingChannel.tv
Download our brilliantly lit, excellently filmed coverage of
- British foilists covering and ducking (and not being carded for it...)
- British epeeists standing still until they get penalised for passivity
- British sabreurs carving chunks out of each other cos they have no technique

The pasta-eaters, frogs, and huns would lauigh themselves to death.

Twohat
-11th April 2006, 14:04
Originally posted by Pat McGroyne

The pasta-eaters, frogs, and huns would lauigh themselves to death.

That would be a result, then! ;)

hokers
-11th April 2006, 16:22
Originally posted by Pat McGroyne
- British foilists covering and ducking (and not being carded for it...)
- British epeeists standing still until they get penalised for passivity
- British sabreurs carving chunks out of each other cos they have no technique

The pasta-eaters, frogs, and huns would lauigh themselves to death.

Are you being ironic or just being an idiot?

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2006, 17:20
Are you being ironic or just being an idiot?

I have to agree with Hokers. There's no need for detremental comments like that, all out representitaves are out there, giving it their very best and we should be supporting them as well as we can!



What's the point of having good footage of crap fencing?

What's the point in making comments that do nothing for the individuals concerned except make them feel inferior and nothing for British Fencing other than make it sound like we have no idea how to fence??

As my mum always says, if you've got nothing nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

gbm
-11th April 2006, 17:40
Read the quote above Pat McGroynes post, and you'll find he is referring to Gav's comment: "Wonder if FP would be interested in filming the British Champs?"

NOT to the cadets and juniors in Korea - quite the opposite!

Foilling Around
-11th April 2006, 17:52
Originally posted by gbm
Read the quote above Pat McGroynes post, and you'll find he is referring to Gav's comment: "Wonder if FP would be interested in filming the British Champs?"

NOT to the cadets and juniors in Korea - quite the opposite!

Plymouth Fencer and Hoker's points still apply. I don't think anyone in Britain would pretend that the final 8 of the British Championships in many cases was even up to the last 8 of the World Cadets.

However rather than being rude to the fencers concerned, we should be asking how we can improve the standard and I ask Pat McGroyne. "What are you doing to bring on better fencers in the future?"

If you are involved in youth fencing, then well done, but I hope your negativity does not rub off on your fencers. If you are not, then stay away until you can make a positive input

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2006, 18:03
I second Foiling Around's suggestion of:


If you are involved in youth fencing, then well done, but I hope your negativity does not rub off on your fencers. If you are not, then stay away until you can make a positive input

Don't attempt to embaress young aspiring fencers. If those kind of comments had of been thrown around at many fencers as they were in the assencion of their fencing career, who knows how many may have given up, to the detriment of the sport!

Boo Boo
-11th April 2006, 18:09
Originally posted by Plymouth Fencer
Don't attempt to embaress young aspiring fencers. If those kind of comments had of been thrown around at many fencers as they were in the assencion of their fencing career, who knows how many may have given up, to the detriment of the sport!

Yes, also agree: you rarely make things better by making people feel bad about themselves.

Being constructive is great. Being negative and offensive is just not helpful. The most important thing in any winner is self-belief: you destroy that, then (no matter how good their technique) you create a loser.

Boo

tigger
-11th April 2006, 18:24
I think the L4 of the GB champs could be good enough for national TV. For example, In MS we had the World Cadet Champ, in WS we have an Olympic L16 fencer and two top-class juniors, in MF we have an Olympic finalist and a world L16 fencer.

But to be fair, for European-wide TV you would expect the best in Europe!

tigger
-11th April 2006, 18:28
Getting back on topic - Best of luck for tomorrow to Alex in MS and Sophie and Dominique in WF

PM1
-11th April 2006, 19:53
fanTAStic results ladies !!!!:party:

...and still no junior team

(be positive - glass half FULL, glass half FULL.....)

Go do as well if not better tomorrow Alex/Sophie/Dominique !! You can do it !!!

Epee shows the wayhayhay.....:grin:

Sabre Dude
-11th April 2006, 20:05
Originally posted by ChubbyHubby
Looks like they are putting downloadable video files of previous day's events on fencingchanngel.tv website.

Just downloaded WF Cadet and MS Cadet

How do you get to them?

fencerbill
-11th April 2006, 20:39
Originally posted by pinkelephant
So Courtney Hurley keeps the World Chanpionship in the family after her sister won it last year. Are there any more of them?
Well actually, there is. Kelly and Courtney together with their mother make up Team Hurley. They recently won the US all-age Epee Team National Championship.

But no more for the Junior/Cadets.

Jan O'C
-11th April 2006, 21:36
Grace and I were visiting KK and Sarah Kempe today when we heard Corrina's results by phone from Alex. Well done Corrina! We're so proud of you.

Good luck to Alex, Sophie and Dominique. Thinking of you and doubting that, as a nervous mum, I will get much sleep tonight.

Sabre Dude
-11th April 2006, 21:49
Don't worry about it Jan. Really there is nothing to be nervous about. Judging by Alex's fantastic L16 result last year I am sure he will do brilliantly, and hey, he might even come back with a medal!

PM1
-11th April 2006, 22:17
Go sleep Jan...he'll go kick btm and ring you when it's done, and no doubt Tim will call in between.

(mind you, think I'd be the same if I wasn't there too with Boy. Bad enough being in the same country when they at the Worlds....). Mums: can't live without our babies....:confused:

Jan O'C
-11th April 2006, 23:01
So true. Sadly, as PM1 says, worrying goes with the territory of being a mum! I can't decide if it is better being there or not. His L16 last year was great but he was still on a total high from his Cadet gold. If I can't sleep, I can always come and check the results on the web as they come in!!

Boo Boo
-11th April 2006, 23:05
Originally posted by Jan O'C
If I can't sleep, I can always come and check the results on the web as they come in!!

Yeah, right, you wont sleep a wink! I know that, if I was you, I wouldn't sleep until I saw the results... :)

Best of luck to everyone fencing in the MS/WF - as with all the GB fencers, our thoughts are with you and we eagerly await the results.

Boo

Foilling Around
-12th April 2006, 00:06
Originally posted by PM1
Mums: can't live without our babies....:confused:

Mums don't have the monopoly on worry you know. This Dad is only just getting over his sleepless night of a few days ago! I really wish that I had decided to go with them.

Good luck Alex and to Sophie and Dom. Lets get the Junior events off to a flying start!

Prometheus
-12th April 2006, 01:20
I'm sure we'll have ample opportunity to dissect the result and it's implications for British fencing after the competition is over.

Just bear in mind that here we have the future senior fencers for at least the next 8 years, therefore including the London olympics....

item A in my evidence is the video of the American cadet epeeist's result. A lesson for all coaches there I think.

Gangsta G
-12th April 2006, 01:45
MS poule results now up (except for 2 poules):

O'CONNELL Alexander GBR V 4 V V 3 2 3/6 4 24

Gangsta G
-12th April 2006, 03:14
38 O'CONNELL Alexander GBR 0.500 4 24 qualifié

to face

27 TAHERKHANI Hamidreza IRI 0.667 5 25 qualifié

in the MS L64

Gangsta G
-12th April 2006, 03:35
Alex out in the MS L 64 15/12

Sophie and Dominique both in the lower half of the L64 in WF, 53 and 36 respectively.

Good luck girls, I'm off to bed!

PM1
-12th April 2006, 07:58
:(
Very bad luck Alex (go to sleep Jan....)

And I was personally very aware of a few dadsintrauma too.....and probably non parent coaches too....

Can others see Item A, Prometheus please ??

(going to work now - no, I'll check the results first)

Go Soph and Dom !!

PM1
-12th April 2006, 08:01
Alex and Dom both 41st, Sophie 53rd

Come on Gordon !!

Jan O'C
-12th April 2006, 09:07
Sadly Alex went out in the L64 to an Iranian. Alex was up 8-7 at the break but lost 15-12 (I think). We had a phone call from Tim at about 3 a.m. (no, I wasn't asleep) and obviously Alex was very disappointed.
Life is full of peaks and troughs - 2005 was certainly a peak and 2006 so far has been a deep trough, but what doesn't kill makes you stronger. Plovdiv (2004) went the same way as Korea and was followed by the success in Linz so he needs to go back to the drawing board with his coaches and see what needs to be done.
On the subject of coaches, its also worth noting that last year Alex had both of his coaches in Linz and this year he has neither and that makes a huge difference. Ian Williams was with him and whilst Ian is a great guy and an excellent coach who will have done everything he can to help, he doesn't know Alex's strengths and weaknesses in the way that Mike or David do.
Hope Dominique and Sophie are faring better. Tons of good luck to Chrystall, Jo and Sarah for tomorrow.

Jan O'C
-12th April 2006, 09:09
oops, PM1 was quicker than me. Her post went up while I was typing mine.
Sorry, as well as good luck to the Sabre girlies, also good luck to the Men Epeeists.

gbm
-12th April 2006, 09:13
We all hope that Alex has better luck next year (and the year after?).

I've just been trying to work out the WS cadet's final referees hand signals and I've only just realised what the first hand signal is - he's incorrectly calling 'halt' with his right hand all the time! (since you are only supposed to call it for a reason other than a hit, using the hand to indicate which fencer has committed the fault leading to a halt?)
Very confusing.

gbm
-12th April 2006, 09:25
PS Regarding the cadet WS final, which points in particular did people think were badly refereed? I've watched the very last point in super slo-mo, and as Ward stretches out to attack, her opponent's arm disappears behind her leg, so that at least is right...
Just trying to learn how sabre is refereed...

Boo Boo
-12th April 2006, 09:41
Junior Women's Foil, 71 entries:
41st Dominique Stowell
53rd Sophie Troiano

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/FDJCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Is Emily Cross (USA) on her way to her second consecutive World Junior title?

Junior Men's Sabre, 79 entries:
41st Alex O'Connell

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/SHJCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Commiserations to everyone today :( and best wishes for everyone tomorrow :).

Boo

Foilling Around
-12th April 2006, 10:34
Originally posted by Jan O'C

On the subject of coaches, its also worth noting that last year Alex had both of his coaches in Linz and this year he has neither and that makes a huge difference. Ian Williams was with him and whilst Ian is a great guy and an excellent coach who will have done everything he can to help, he doesn't know Alex's strengths and weaknesses in the way that Mike or David do.

Oh so true Jan. It is not just strengths and weaknesses it is the psychology of the fencer. When to push and when to ease off. When to console and when to shout at them

When I have been supporting the other WF cadets on the couple of occasions I have been abroad, I personally forund it difficult. The reason being that I have spent the past 5 years plus looking at their weaknesses and helping FA Junior to beat them. Suddenly switching to maximising their strengths was not easy.

A fencer is not an island, they need a support network.

Rdb811
-12th April 2006, 11:08
Apart from the coach not knowing the fencer, there is teh problem of the fencer not knowing the coach.

Boo Boo
-12th April 2006, 12:09
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Is Emily Cross (USA) on her way to her second consecutive World Junior title?

Yes she did - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/FDJCopie-AUX/quarts%20de%20finale.htm - wow!

The USA certainly is doing something right, must be that really aggressive selection/qualification policy they have and not sending full teams to Junior/Senior World Champs...

Boo

Prometheus
-12th April 2006, 12:11
Originally posted by PM1
Can others see Item A, Prometheus please ??

Of course they can PM1. The archives are here:http://www.fencingchannel.tv/feature/2006fie/CKOR.htm

rory
-12th April 2006, 13:15
Just watched the video clip of the Cadet MF Final (http://www.fencingchannel.tv/feature/2006fie/CKOR.htm?size=medium&view=http://www.fencingchannel.tv/feature/2006fie/MFCKOR06.mov) - that's some of the best fencing I've seen since the "new" timings came in.

The winner, Zherebchenko (who was in Dan Robinson's poule) has some of the best distance I've ever seen, at any age group.

Really good foil - no squirminess - just nicely timed stop hits, and long flowing lunges.

The last hit is particularly lovely.

Foilling Around
-12th April 2006, 13:43
Yes I've just watched that. Hope to gain some inspiration for Saturday! Lovely classical blade position, timing and distance.

Prometheus
-12th April 2006, 13:52
FA - Very nice fencing - good luck Saturday.

Foilling Around
-12th April 2006, 13:53
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Yes she did - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/FDJCopie-AUX/quarts%20de%20finale.htm - wow!

The USA certainly is doing something right, must be that really aggressive selection/qualification policy they have and not sending full teams to Junior/Senior World Champs...

Boo

But Boo, the people the USA have sent have done well. The best that we have (including FAJ) have not, with the odd honourable and fantastic exception. The question to ask is how did the US get to that stage. In the build up over the past 5 to 10 years what type and size of teams have the US sent. What is their training, preparation, coaching how does it differ from ours.

I watch our fencers and the tallent is there. How do we focus it and channel. Believe me I want to know. This is not negativity. I intend to be part of a suppport team which helps to deliver the better results. As an individual I have helped to bring out my daughters tallent, there is the start of support from the foil set up, but how do we take this to the next level AND make it possible and affordable to parents.

Off now to Heathrow to pick up a probably very tired foilist.

Boo Boo
-12th April 2006, 14:15
Originally posted by Foilling Around
But Boo, the people the USA have sent have done well.

Well obviously. However, have the USA refused to send people when they have not stood such a chance of getting a medal? Do they send out singular talented fencers (under 20, not cadet here) without team mates and training partners to work off of? Do they pass up the opportunity to field teams at major championships?

One thing that has always impressed me with the Americans is their "team attitude": they always seem to work well together - they are enthusiastic, support each other and feed off of each others successes. British Fencing is not about teams, it is about individuals: I am convinced that we are missing a trick here... Yes, talented individuals are incredibly important, but couldn't we use teams to provide a support enviroment for these individuals to help them achieve their full potential AND maybe help their team-mates to exceed people's expectations too. :)

Saw a great quote about the upturn in US Fencing over the past couple of days, will see if I can find it again.

Boo

Boo Boo
-12th April 2006, 14:26
One of the reasons I think why the US cadets are doing so great is that I think they've grew up under a different fencing environment. Many times, US fencers, who are all very capable fencers, would not do well at international meets because they grew up with the expectation of losing. Our younger fencers don't have that. They are growing up with an expectation of winning. And that psychological advantage is crucial at high pressure events.

(from Eric Dew - a California based fencer)

Think this is a very valid statement. There is only so much of "you are not good enough" (or negative write-ups in the Sword... :rolleyes: ) that people can psychologically take before they start believing it (even on a subconscious level).

Boo

Boo Boo
-12th April 2006, 14:36
Originally posted by rory
Just watched the video clip of the Cadet MF Final (http://www.fencingchannel.tv/feature/2006fie/CKOR.htm?size=medium&view=http://www.fencingchannel.tv/feature/2006fie/MFCKOR06.mov) - that's some of the best fencing I've seen since the "new" timings came in.

Is it me or does there, inadvertantly, appear to be more off-targets in foil following the introduction of the new timings? Or is this because it is cadet level...?

Boo

rory
-12th April 2006, 14:49
Is it me or does there, inadvertantly, appear to be more off-targets in foil following the introduction of the new timings? Or is this because it is cadet level...?


You may be right. In the case of this particular fight though, I'd say that the italian keeps hitting off target because the Russian is easily able to step out of range when attacked, due to his superioir distance sense.

And the Russian keeps hitting offtarget because his hand isn't as good in close: he tends to rush the riposte a little.

Prometheus
-12th April 2006, 15:31
Rory,

What seemed striking to me was that the style seemed quite different to that seen on the UK circuit at top levels - would you agree?

(I've not been to a comp for over a year now so might be wrong)

rory
-12th April 2006, 16:13
Originally posted by Prometheus
Rory,

What seemed striking to me was that the style seemed quite different to that seen on the UK circuit at top levels - would you agree?

(I've not been to a comp for over a year now so might be wrong)


I've started a new thread (http://fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=138423#post138423) to deal with this so we don't pollute the WC thread.

But my answer is "yes" :)

Prometheus
-12th April 2006, 16:47
I thought you might agree ;)

Prometheus
-12th April 2006, 18:38
Interesting this found at Wicas' club's homepage:

After passing their footwork exam a student earns the privilege of learning to use a weapon and the development of fine motor skills begins. When appropriate the athlete is introduced to competition as a part of the fencing experience, with emphasis on learning the competition skills that lead to results.

Jan O'C
-12th April 2006, 19:07
Boo,

Your quote from Eric Dew is so very appropiate for many of our young fencers including Alex. When Alex reached the Last 16 in the Juniors last year, he went into the competition expecting to do well because he had just won the Cadet MS and unsurprisingly he did.

This year for a variety of reasons that don't need to be gone into here, his confidence is patchy and that has shown in his fencing. Sometimes he's extremely good and others he just lacks his normal edge. It will sort itself out. However, for some of our young fencers, their confidence will never grow if we keep telling them they are not international standard.

We also need to remember that many of the US fencers are on Sports Scholarships at uni so have less worries about dividing their time between academic studies and sport and finally but probably most importantly, they have a considerably larger number of fencers to select their team from!!!

Sabre Dude
-12th April 2006, 20:14
I totally agree with Jan. If you tell a fencer that they are not good enough to perform at international standard, then chaces are they will never think themselves worthy of competing at international standard, thereby lowering their confidence, which does affect results. Being fencers yourselves you should know that being encouraged is the most rewarding thing next to winning a medal.

In regards to US fencing, as Jan said they have MUCH larger numbers to pick from. Also a lot of them train from a very early age (like Alex did I believe?), and so they are more experienced competitors than most. This is bound to raise their standard of fencing above ours. Do you not agree?

PM1
-12th April 2006, 22:41
To "more experienced competitors" add "at the relevant level". If we don't send them to world etc comps, they'll never know what it is like to be there. And it is VERY different to anything else, I'm told. US might have more fencers, but they still only chose the best of what they got.

I agree with so much written here today: there are only so many times you can knock someone over before they stay down.

This following is not a criticism as such, but an honestly meant set of questions:What is achieved by having people I understand to be nominated as national coaches if they do not "know" the fencers, how they work and what makes them tick or ticks them off? And vice versa. Do they work with the individual coaches? Do they meet frequently? Do they train together regularly? Are the cadet/junior GB coaches and captains involved? Is there a national plan? It must not be a lottery if improvement is being taken seriously - which I believe most want to.

We have 2 days of individual competition left in Korea plus 2 teams. Can we please learn loads from this week, and apply those lessons?

The very best of luck to those still to compete - we are all rooting for you. And for those who are done (and even back) - good effort. Have a rest and then start all over again, please ;)

PM1
-12th April 2006, 22:46
Originally posted by Prometheus
Of course they can PM1. The archives are here:http://www.fencingchannel.tv/feature/2006fie/CKOR.htm

Cheers Prometheus ;)
(wish I could work out how to get it to work tho....will call Boy ....)

Jan O'C
-12th April 2006, 23:13
An interesting point to note in the MS. Lallement of France who came 3rd in the Cadet MS last year when Alex won has had a very good year in Junior A Grades so was expected to do well in Korea. He was seeded 7th after the poules. He then also lost in the L64 to a Turkish fencer who was seeded 50 somethingth. Neither of the other two medallists from last year's Cadet MS qualified this year. It makes you wonder if success last year puts an unnatural amount of pressure on the fencer for this year.

PM1
-12th April 2006, 23:23
True .....expectations of others, if not of one's self.....

PM1
-12th April 2006, 23:41
Originally posted by Prometheus
Of course they can PM1. The archives are here:http://www.fencingchannel.tv/feature/2006fie/CKOR.htm

As I said....Boy fixed it for mum !!;)

Lee Spiers
-12th April 2006, 23:53
Bugger... when i try to access the live feed i get this message..........



Windows Media Player cannot play the file because a network error occurred. The server might not be available. Verify that you are connected to the network and that your proxy settings are correct.




Never had this problem before, is it my pc or them??:rolleyes:

Neil Brown
-12th April 2006, 23:53
WS pools about to start at 8:30 here.

Looking at the results web page will allow you to see the results nearly as fast as we can & the times for the L64 fights are sometimes posted online faster than anywhere in the venue.

PM1
-12th April 2006, 23:58
Crikey !! Keep up the good work, Neil :grin:

Typical - ANdrew Fenwick and Tom Bennett are in the same poule of 7.....when did they experience that before, I wonder....or come across e/o in a DE.....so many times......

Good luck gang - go give 'em hell :mad: :mad: :transport

cesh_fencing
-13th April 2006, 00:03
Looks like as good a poule as Tom could hope for. Camilleri (AUS)is 2nd seed in poule, could have been worse and no fencers from the major recognised Epee Nations.

Go for it Tom...

Lee Spiers
-13th April 2006, 00:10
how do you know this?

Please excuse my ignorance:o:

PM1
-13th April 2006, 00:14
The classifications are up (world junior rankings) and the poules on the web site - you can work it out from that - and from knowledge/experience, I guess...;) Camillieri was beaten by Jim Thornton I think at the junior commonwealths?

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 00:17
Originally posted by PM1
The very best of luck to those still to compete - we are all rooting for you. And for those who are done (and even back) - good effort. Have a rest and then start all over again, please ;)

Yes, thoroughly seconded :). Best of luck to Tom, JoJo, Chrystall and Sarah tomorrow :)

Completely understandable about Alex feeling some considerable pressure. Personally that is one of the reasons that I support full teams going out: if you have one talented individual competing at a major championship, then all of the pressure/spotlight will be on him - if you have a full team competing, then I think there is less pressure on the individuals.

There are no expectations here, just the support and best wishes to hope that all of the GB fencers can achieve what they are capable of. Like PM1 says, if things don't go as planned, then come home and turn that disappointment into the determination to win next time. :).

Boo

pinkelephant
-13th April 2006, 00:22
Originally posted by PM1
The classifications are up (world junior rankings) and the poules on the web site - you can work it out from that - and from knowledge/experience, I guess...;) Camillieri was beaten by Jim Thornton I think at the junior commonwealths?

Correct. Camilleri subsequently won the Gothenburg A grade. He is only seeded that low because he is stuck in Australia miles away from the action.

Tom lost to him in the pool and in the semi in Chennai - let's hope it's third time lucky.

PM1
-13th April 2006, 00:34
Too right !!

Time for bed for me - will catch up about 7.30am GMT.

Go get'em gang!!

kd5mdk
-13th April 2006, 00:49
Originally posted by BRITTANY
Bugger... when i try to access the live feed i get this message..........



Windows Media Player cannot play the file because a network error occurred. The server might not be available. Verify that you are connected to the network and that your proxy settings are correct.




Never had this problem before, is it my pc or them??:rolleyes:

FencingChannel is using Quicktime, which can be downloaded here:
http://www.apple.com/uk/quicktime/download/standalone.html

kd5mdk
-13th April 2006, 00:56
Oops, I didn't notice you were trying for the live feed, and it's too late to edit my post. :(

Lee Spiers
-13th April 2006, 00:59
I alredy ave Q time.................



the error msg cums in before the the player even starts

mad or what?? thanks for the help!!

AAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGG:sam:

kd5mdk
-13th April 2006, 01:06
Hmm. I just gave the live feed link a try and got a totally different error.

kd5mdk
-13th April 2006, 01:14
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Is it me or does there, inadvertantly, appear to be more off-targets in foil following the introduction of the new timings? Or is this because it is cadet level...?

Boo

The impression I've seen from a lot of the better bouts around home is that foilists are very good at imperceptible squirming which causes attacks to land on the shoulder, weapon arm, mask, etc. The effectiveness is probably magnified by the new timings reducing the flick, which was less likely to hit those areas. I am sure event Cadets at the WC level are highly skilled at this sort of thing.

MakeTradeFair
-13th April 2006, 01:21
NICOLL Chrystall GBR V V V V V 5/5 12 25

HUTCHISON Joanna GBR V V 2 V V 4/5 10 22

ELLIS Sarah GBR 3 V V 3 2 2/5 -2 18


Which... to my calculations make Chrystall =3rd seed, and Jo ~9th. (D'art actually did Jo's... which explains why its only "around".)

kd5mdk
-13th April 2006, 01:30
Specifically, tied for 3rd with Ekaterina DIATCHENK from the pool above. :)

Gangsta G
-13th April 2006, 02:02
COME ON GIRLS!!!! Everything going really well so far :grin:

MakeTradeFair
-13th April 2006, 02:03
Our calculations proved spot on.
Sarh Ellis seeded =35.

Lee Spiers
-13th April 2006, 02:04
Good luck come on!!!!!!!!:grin:

Gangsta G
-13th April 2006, 02:06
Sarah out 15/14 to no. 28 seed Besbes of Tunisia. Unlucky Sarah.

pinkelephant
-13th April 2006, 04:14
Jo also out 15-14 in the 32. Chrystall through to the 16.

Tom seeded 50 in ME and Andy 66.

Poule no 13 V/M Indice TD
KRAMARICS Michael Zoltan NOR 2 V 4 X 4 4 1/5 -1 19
FENWICK Andrew IRL V V 3 X 4 2 2/5 -1 19
ALVAREZ Juan Jose GUA 0 3 3 X V 3 1/5 -9 14
BENNETT Thomas Edward GBR V V V X 4 2 3/5 1 21
NGUYEN Duc Duong VIE A A A A A A abandon1
ALBERS Christiaan NED V V 3 V X V 4/5 3 23
CAMILLERI Martin AUS V V V V X 3 4/5 7 23

Tom did lose to Camilleri. All 3 Vietnamese abandoned.

pinkelephant
-13th April 2006, 04:32
JME is the only event so far to have had a L128.

pinkelephant
-13th April 2006, 05:05
Chrystall out 15-14 in the L16.

Tom through to the L64. Andy out 15-14 in the L128.

pinkelephant
-13th April 2006, 05:20
Junior WS final could be a repeat of the Cadet final.

pinkelephant
-13th April 2006, 05:43
Tom went out to Priinits 15-11 in the L64.

Foilling Around
-13th April 2006, 06:05
How much bad luck can one sabre team have!! 3 x 15:14 defeats in one event. We will know the british sabre support team when they get home by the finger nails cewed to the elbows. Tough luck girls, now kick some ass in the teams.

Keith.A.Smith
-13th April 2006, 06:16
Dear All,

The WS fenced wel today and achieved a last 64, Sarah, a last 32 with Jo and a last 16 with Chrystall. All lost 15-14 and we have talekjd and all three could have won. The WS are a good unit and have fenced well. Tom Bennett also fenced well but drew a tough Estonian in the last 64.

With the announcement this week by UK Sport of significantly increased funduing for British Fencig in the period 2006 to 2009 and then we hope onwards to 2012 we hope to bring about a real change.

With all due respect to some the USa do not do well because they bring full teams.

They have University fundfng and inter university sport is very important in the USA, parents contribute enormously to the fencers costs,(even more than our parents who I am am fully aware contribute lots, the USA has literally hundreds of ex Eastern Bloc coaches who have a very obvious rivalry espcially at sabre. The fencers train a great deal and are therefore fit and well trained. They also started with young fencers and trained them all the way to senior level, getting rid of their previous teams.

We are planning to introduce schemes such as this but at present our university sytem in UK is not as flexible. We have set up a centre in London, we are looking into accomodation so fencers can be residential full time, appointing full time coaches, using support services and fitness trainers and psychologists and have been negotiating a great deal with UK Sport and the BOA.

We have been awarded 2.7 million to 2009 plus a further 1.2 million direct to the BFA. This is 3.9 million between now and 2009 and provided we can achieve certain funding triggers that have been set by UK Sport then we can really bing about a change. At senior level we aim to have full time fencers.

Another point is we need tp professionalise al aspects and also UK Sport say our fencers must expecially at Senior level in effect become professional or at least part time professional.

In my opinion we have fallen behind over the past 30 years and now need to catch up and UK Sport are now giving us the means to make a real change. Clearly if we had double this figure we could do even more.

Talking of team attitude as some have on this forum it does not help just to knock every attempt to improve the situation. Some of us have been busy getting this funding. Now we need to use it wisely. If you look at our results since 2000 we have achived a very grat deal with pretty limited funding and we a new professionalism we can achieve so much more.

Keith

PM1
-13th April 2006, 08:15
Thanks for the info Keith - always good to hear about what is going on. There are a myriad of reasons why countries succeed at anything, and discussion and exchange of views and info are of those. Our fencers do the best they can in the circumstances they find themselves in. We all strive to make things better. In our own ways (some more obvious than others), we support those fencers and others coming up.

Well done all and crushing bad luck today. Come back and rest and recuperate for the next time.

Go the teams !!:grin:

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 09:57
Originally posted by Foilling Around
How much bad luck can one sabre team have!! 3 x 15:14 defeats in one event. We will know the british sabre support team when they get home by the finger nails cewed to the elbows. Tough luck girls, now kick some ass in the teams.

That's exactly what I was thinking! And, like-wise, go get some revenge in the team event :)

Junior Women's Sabre, 60 entries:
9th Chrystall Nicoll
19th Jo Hutchison
42nd Sarah Ellis

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/SDJCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Junior Men's Epee, 112 entries:
51st Tom Bennett

Full results - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/EHJCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Foilling Around
-13th April 2006, 10:00
Keith (and everyone else for that matter!),

No-one doubts your commitment or in any way devalues what you have achieved. You have done a fantastic job with the BFA (are doing a fantastic job I should say otherwise it sounds like I want you to go - which I don't)

As I pointed out earlier in this thread. Entries are well down on Linz. Especially in the Cadet event (I hope this doesn't give ammunition to RR in his bid to eliminate the Cadet WC) Many countries have not sent full teams. I have heard both sides of the team agrument and my opinions is that we could have been more creative. I do think that with a World Cadet champion from last year we could have given him some support to put in a Team for the Junior Sabre.

I appreciate the driving up of the standard argument and I think the standard we need to achieve has been well demonstrated this week. If however we raise the bar too high too soon it acts as a disincentive.

The structure Keith is alluding to is one which says "This is the height of the bar and this is the programme we have put in place to help you to get to that standard."

Let's face it, the BFA can take little credit of the sandard of fencing reached by FAJ or most of the Cadets at present
Apart from my training as a coach, which comes under the auspices of the BFA, the BFA puts in little. I know that that is true now in the Era of England Fencing, but it was also true before the split. And, to be honest, that is only right. It is our job as coaches, parents, clubs to produce and bring on good and tallented fencers.

At the standard of good Cadets however the BFA should, and I think is starting to, kick in with its input. Over the past few months there have been WF squad trainings, the first trainings which I as a parent have not had to pay for. This standard of potential elite fencers is where the talent spotting and augmentation of private training should kick in. I think however that more care needs to be taken to merge this with private training and involve personal coaches. At present a lot of the training is more of a bolt on nature. Fencers should have targets which are transmitted to coaches or even negociated with personal coaches (who know the fencer best).

This means 2 things.

Senior national coaches who have the respect of and ability to work with other coaches.

Senior national coaches and squad managers who are given the time to plan and implement this type of programme.

Coaches have to make a living. It is not good paying a coach 2 hour's pay for a 2 hour training session. I should be at least 4 hours of their time (or a full time contract) to produce a report on each fencer to review progress.

In education speak, we are talking about assessment for learning. But where training is being centrally funded and/or fencers are on grants then it is vital to make sure they are fulfilling the responsibilities of those grants.

These may be skills which some coaches need to be taught as it has not been seen as a big part of a coaches role up to now.

I think that these trainings need to to be more tightly focused and involve assessment of fitness. They also need a much better coach ratio than 1:12. I have taken the following from another thread which quotes an article by Graham Paul from 1999

1. Grants should only be given to fencers who complete an approved training scheme, including regular fitness testing.
2. There should be compulsory squad sessions where the emphasis is on footwork and fitness.
3. Squad training needs to be professionally administered.
4. Training should be run by a coach assisted by top exinternationals, who can concentrate on the tactical, fitness and footwork aspects that are so lacking in our younger fencers.

Finally - a plea

DON'T MAKE IT ALL LONDON BASED. Spread it round the country or pick a more central base.

For a start we will waste 20% of our grant money because of the extra cost of facilities in London.

Throw it further north. Birmingham is accessible from all over the country.

Even Nottingham (said he selfishly) has possibilities. The watersports centre at Holme Pierrepont has a sports hall, accommodation and great grounds for cross country runs! And it is looking for a new direction since it is losing its national status.

Following the collapse of the Eastern Bloc between 1990 and 1995 many fencing coaches were attracted to the USA. (as stated by Keith above). It has taken them plus or minus 10 years to get to the standard they are at today. And that is with a college system which is geared towards accommodating sporting excellence.

We don't have that volume of excellent coaches, we don't have that unversity spoting infrastructure and we have just 6 years to succeed.

We had better start working hard and fast and pulling in the same direction. We are all working to some extent from selfish motives in that no-one does anything without getting some kind of personal reward out of it.

I fully admit that I want a structure in place which will augment, but not take over from, my coaching of my daughter. That structure should bring out the best of her undoubted talent and give her the best chance of reaching the Olympics in 2012. I will fight tooth and nail to bring that about and I will put in my own money and efforts, not just shout from the sidelines. I realise however that I will not get my own way all of the time, there have to be compromises on everyone's behalf.

We now have some of the money needed. Let's ensure we use it wisely to invest for the future, not just as sticking plasters for a quick fix.

Here endeth my massive missive. You can tell that I am on Easter hols and FAJ is sleeping off her flight from Korea upstairs. I'll see quite a few people in Brimingham on Saturday. I'm the one with a nice black and red "hand me up" fencing bag as FAJ now has a nice blue red and white WC bag!!

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 10:27
Originally posted by Keith.A.Smith
With all due respect to some the USa do not do well because they bring full teams.

Am not suggesting that "they bring more fencers, so they do better", just that the whole selection policy is more positive and less destructive (providing a better environment for those talented individuals to shine).

The Americans are not scared of "not qualifying" or "loosing" or "not being good enough", their only thoughts are winning.

Ok, it is not the be all and end all of what creates success (far from it). BUT we do have some incredibly talented fencers (some with sufficient funds) and some very talented coaches, so it is trying to see what will help maximise their chances of success. I think that sending some of them out teamless is probably not the most constructive thing, that's all... Neither are we taking every opportunity to develop team fencers of the future (by taking full advantage of the opportunities open to all our junior fencers now).

I don't think many will doubt my "team attitude".

Boo

Jan O'C
-13th April 2006, 10:42
Dear Keith,

No-one but no-one could deny the amount of work you and Graham are putting into fencing and the massive improvements you have achieved.

The Factory is proving successful and from the Sabre point of view, getting fencers to work regularly (or as regularly as they can) with Ian is an excellent idea. He is getting to know them and they him (some politics between coaches can be a potential problem though).

Again, both you and Graham have been hugely supportive to Alex this year and I'm sure you are to other fencers also. People, including me, tend to air their opinions on this forum (that's what its for) and sometimes they sound all negative but certainly from my point of view, its not meant that way.

You and Graham have hard decisions to make and as always you can't please all of the people all of the time. On the whole, however, you do manage to please most of us most of the time - no easy task.

We are all guilty of saying that if fencers are told often enough that they aren't good enough, they will feel that way. We need to remember that if we keep telling the BFA they aren't doing a good enough job, we risk making them feel the same way. I think its time we focussed on the positive points in your post (and the additional funding is a huge one).

Please do not feel unappreciated or unloved. Rome wasn't built in a day so we will try to tone down our moaning.

Please give the WS girls our love and wish them all the best for the team event - also to all other fencers still to compete.

Gangsta G
-13th April 2006, 10:52
Alexandra Bujdoso (GER) and Rebecca Ward (USA) through to WS final - could well be Rebecca's second title in a number of days!!!

Comiserations to Jo and Chrystall. By all accounts you fenced very well; it's hard to ask for more than that.

cesh_fencing
-13th April 2006, 10:56
Originally posted by Foilling Around
Finally - a plea

DON'T MAKE IT ALL LONDON BASED. Spread it round the country or pick a more central base.
[/i]

Surely training should be based to decrease the cost and time of travel for the majority of those doing the training. If you have 70% of those in the session based in or close to London why then run training in Nottingham or Birmingham (are there any of our top senior fencers based in B'ham?).

I agree it would be great to have training sessions all over the country, but in reality this does not work and in total costs more money. Possibly run sessions in London (if that is where most fencers are based) and have a travel allowance/cross subsidy for those that travel further (if there are the funds).

Where there is a hotspot for a weapon (like London for Mens Epee (Haverstock, LTFC, Sussex House, 126, Reading (fairly close), R&REC etc i.e. 9 of top 10 at Nationals London/SE based)) this is where it is best to base the training.

In Ladies foil 6 of the top 8 at last years National Championships are London/SE Based, again does it not then make sense to base in/around London.

In Germany if you want to fence at the top level the fencer has to go to an established centre of excellence (Heidenheim/Bonn etc) the sessions does not move to the odd fencer or small group based elsewhere.

I am based in the SE, however it is relatively easy to get to London from anywhere in the country, usually with a single train and it is the top fencers you want to attract to help the younger ones improve, if you do not base the training within easy reach of those senior fencers they will not turn up.

Rhi
-13th April 2006, 11:10
I have to agree with the training sessions being based around London, however i do not beleive fencers should be treated differently if they do not go to training sessions when they live elsewhere.

I lived in Plymouth and travelled for 9 years to fence around the country and it wasn't just about the monitory values of going to london or anywhere else for that matter it was the time and effort of doing so.

I am at uni in London now, and my choice to come to London was significantly based around fencing. It is so much easier to go everywhere and anywhere from there, however my younger sister Corinna still lives in Plymouth. It takes her 4 hours by train to get into London. When she is competing all over the place at weekends, is in full time education (taking her GCSE's at the moment) is it realistic and fair to be asking her to train in London on top of all of this. She trains hard at home and her training is adequate in Plymouth; case in point her result in Korea.

I think that it is important to recognise that there may be training alternatives for individuals than going to sessions in London!

Threestain
-13th April 2006, 11:14
Just as an interesting side point, has anyone looked at the medals table for this years Junior and Cadets at this stage?

Bearing in mind it's about half way through (8 done ten to go), the US have 7 medals (out of a possible 24) and 4 titles. so they've done very well. Korea are second with 3 medals and 1 title (home favourites!).

However, looking further down at the "established countries":

Some of these are doing ok:
Russia, Hungary and Ukraine all have titles, and Italy have four silvers

However:
France = 7th, with a silver and two bronze
Germany = 9th, with a solitary bronze
Poland = 11th, with a solitary bronze (below Belgium!)
China = 13th, with a solitary bronze

To these guys this is not a good result - I think this shows three things...

1. The comps are very tough
2. The US are doing very well
3. Possibly some teams haven't travelled as well as they might.

rory
-13th April 2006, 11:19
Rebecca Ward just won Junior WS, to go with her Cadet WS from 2 days ago.

Wow.

tigger
-13th April 2006, 11:47
Of the six elite male sabreurs (named by the BFA) one is in the Newcastle/Durham area, one is in Budapest, one is in Cornwall, one is in Bristol, and two are in or around London.

Of the Men's Sabre top 8 at the 2005 GB Nationals two were London area, one was in Cornwall, two were in Somerset, two were in the North East and one was in Edinburgh...

Taking up threestain's point, I think the US have done better than very well! So far:

15 finalists, of which 10 made the medals, and 5 won gold. As well as an impressive conversion rate of finalists to medals, 50% of all the golds so far have gone to US. And if you want the safest bet ever, a few million on them to win the Women's team sabre wouldn't go awry! So far no other country has won more than 1 gold.

I doubt (though I haven't looked!) that any country has ever dominated a World Youth Champs to such an extent?

Threestain
-13th April 2006, 11:54
Ok, so my stats should now read:

US 1st, 5 titles, 10 medals (from 40 - was meant to be 32 last time)

Germany 3rd, 1 title, 3 medals

pinkelephant
-13th April 2006, 12:33
I think you are missing Keith's point about centralisation. It is not just the odd training session being in London that he is talking about; it is LIVING IN SITU, at the training centre, and being full time athletes. In this case the fencers should move to wherever the training facility is set up - just as Modern Pentathlon is centred around Bath and, for juniors, at Harpury College which is not a million miles from Bath.

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 12:59
Originally posted by pinkelephant
I think you are missing Keith's point about centralisation. It is not just the odd training session being in London that he is talking about; it is LIVING IN SITU, at the training centre, and being full time athletes. In this case the fencers should move to wherever the training facility is set up - just as Modern Pentathlon is centred around Bath and, for juniors, at Harpury College which is not a million miles from Bath.

By the looks of things, Men's Foil are going along this road. Ok they are not living there, by quite a few members of the GB squad train at The Factory on an almost daily basis... seems to be a good idea.

As Rhi points out, there are currently no exceptions (apart from medical) for not attending squad training sessions in London (living far away, having exams or coursework are not acceptable reasons for not attending). Liz Wright has been coming down from Scotland to attend the sessions (which shows her commitment). Does Chris come back from Hungary to do the squad sessions?

The Factory is a compact, but incredibly useful facility. And, I don't know about the other national coaches, but Pierre is a VERY good coach (Women's Foil).

Boo

cesh_fencing
-13th April 2006, 13:03
Originally posted by pinkelephant
I think you are missing Keith's point about centralisation. It is not just the odd training session being in London that he is talking about; it is LIVING IN SITU, at the training centre, and being full time athletes. In this case the fencers should move to wherever the training facility is set up - just as Modern Pentathlon is centred around Bath and, for juniors, at Harpury College which is not a million miles from Bath.

This works to a certain point however if you take lets say 4 Mens Epeeists and base the training centre where there are no other decent Epeeist around, they will get stale fencing the same 3 opponents.

For pentathlon running, swimming, shooting and riding are individual sports where opponants are not required, the fencing is often our pentathletes downfall (there are a few exceptions who are fencer pentathletes who learnt elsewhere), partly due to lack of variation of opponents.

Taking Pentathlon as an example, Bath is a great facility and the training is done in conjunction with most of the athletes being at Uni at Bath. If fencing is to have a central training centre it would also need to be linked to a decent University so education is continued.

As for Hartbury, very few of the top younger pentathletes seem to go there as far as I can see and most of the junior competitors have to have longer traveling times than training periods when going there for weekend sessions which is not good considering the huge amount of training they do for 5 sports and having to be at school...

Rhi
-13th April 2006, 13:19
I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing but it is definitely something I find intriguing and interesting.

The two Hurley sisters that have one the World Cadet Epee Champs in consecutive years only train with each other at home in the USA and their father is their coach.

I don't know if they attend centralised training sessions but the majority of their training is only done with each other.

And Kelly the elder of the two has also made a big impact on the senior circuit as well in recent years so she is not just an ickle cadet fencer either.

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 13:30
Originally posted by cesh_fencing
Taking Pentathlon as an example, Bath is a great facility and the training is done in conjunction with most of the athletes being at Uni at Bath. If fencing is to have a central training centre it would also need to be linked to a decent University so education is continued.

Yes, one of the things that the Pentathletes have at Bath University, that we don't currently seem to have with the elite squads for fencing is an "all round approach to training" (fitness testing, cardio and strength programmes, core stbility workouts, physios, relaxation techniques, psychology, nutrition, recovery...)

For example, fencing squad sessions are warm-ups, stretching, footwork, fencing (normally with specific goals for each set of fencing), stretching and warm downs. This is all VERY valuable, but hope it will develope towards fitness testing and developing cardio/strength/core stability etc. Squad training time is very limited, so obviously this work would need to be outside of the training sessions, but would be good to see help being given to establish, develop and monitor training programmes. Particularly young fencers.

One of the things that has most impressed me recently, regarding British Fencing, was the TASS training camp that James and Ian Williams (et al) did just before Christmas. Thought that was excellent and a real step forward. Would have liked to have seen more specific follow-ups come out of it (fitness test results were forwarded, but the advice was very general - along the lines of "need more cardio fitness"), but I thought the the TASS camp was very valuable and well run :cool:

Boo

Foilling Around
-13th April 2006, 13:37
Boo

Re The Factory - for compact, read "small".

Great for a few fencers, but for wider squad session, too limited. Actually, of all the London venues, it is fairly easy to get to by car from the North.

A big reason many of the Senior Fencers are in London is because it is all based there. How many started off in London. It has created a self fulfilling prophecy Cesh. Maybe some would rather live somewhere cheaper.

Don't forget Lisa McKenzie coming down from Scotland as well and two girls from Wrexham.

Yes, Pierre is both a very good coach and a nice guy. (useful to have both qualities!) I don't however think he can do it all on his own. Other coaches should be involved. There need to be training logbooks. Some sessions should involve fitness monitoring, VO2 max, body fat, bleep test of whatever other test those with more knowledge than me deem appropriate.

Maybe someone apart from the coach should administer that side.

The squad manager and squad coach need to be co-ordinators and facilitators not the sole deliverers. BUT to do that they need the time to be able to do it.

I could make lots of suggestions but I don't want this to turn into public criticism of people currently organising British Fencing. I already probably put too much in writing on the forum and put people's backs up.

haining
-13th April 2006, 13:38
I think that various methods of training suit different fencers, but what BFA seem to be doing is finding one method which suits the majority and to be honest I think that's all they can do, with possibly a few tweaks along the way.

tigger
-13th April 2006, 13:51
To be honest I was very sceptical at first as to whether The Factory was money well-spent. But having been there twice I'm quite enthusiastic about it.

However for MS there's only one session per week (Friday afternoon), so it's difficult to see it having a massive effect. When I've been there it's been only been me and Neil from MS, and Jo from WS. I know Alex has been twice, and Anthony once. Don't think Peter K or Julian have made it at all. Being a Friday pm, some people have work and the juniors have school/exams.

I don't think you could expect Chris B to fly back from Budapest every week for training with me and Neil, when he's got access to highest quality fencing where he is.

BTW James Williams is fitness/conditioning bloke (coach? advisor?) for the squad.

tigger
-13th April 2006, 13:53
PS I completely agree with Foiling Around - it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Something which in the long-run we're planning to overcome down here at least in MS and WS.

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 14:42
Yes, it is small (the pistes do not have any run off and think some of them may be short), but works well for elite training sessions: when there are about 8/9 of you in there.


Originally posted by tigger
However for MS there's only one session per week (Friday afternoon), so it's difficult to see it having a massive effect. When I've been there it's been only been me and Neil from MS, and Jo from WS. I know Alex has been twice, and Anthony once. Don't think Peter K or Julian have made it at all. Being a Friday pm, some people have work and the juniors have school/exams.

So Sabre have one Friday afternoon a week? Does Ian Williams go along to these sessions?

Women's Foil have one session a month (all day on a Saunday, accept we had some MF take up some of the space last time). Think this works quite well: makes things easier for people like Liz who are travelling very long distances.

Pierre has also scheduled a junior squad session on the Saturday of that same weekend each month. Senior squad have to attend that session too - so, effectively, once a month there is a "training weekend". Makes very good use of being in London (if you are there for one day, might as well be there for two...).


Originally posted by tigger
BTW James Williams is fitness/conditioning bloke (coach? advisor?) for the squad.

Just for Sabre squads? Would be good if he was fitness/conditioning coach/advisor for all weapons... from what I have seen, he seems very good at it.

Boo

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 14:51
Originally posted by Foilling Around
I could make lots of suggestions but I don't want this to turn into public criticism of people currently organising British Fencing. I already probably put too much in writing on the forum and put people's backs up.

But it is not about "personal criticism" and constructive criticism SHOULD not put people's backs up. If anybody has ideas, surely this is not a bad place to air them? In fact I have seen great ideas aired by people on here change "ownership" along their way to realisation... ;).

This board is an open discussion forum. Just because you disagree with someone, does not make it personal. We are all adults, not extras on "The Apprentice" :)

Boo

Foilling Around
-13th April 2006, 15:14
Originally posted by Boo Boo
But it is not about "personal criticism" and constructive criticism SHOULD not put people's backs up. If anybody has ideas, surely this is not a bad place to air them? In fact I have seen great ideas aired by people on here change "ownership" along their way to realisation... ;).

This board is an open discussion forum. Just because you disagree with someone, does not make it personal. We are all adults, not extras on "The Apprentice" :)

Boo

As Keith put it, we are probably some 30 years behind the times and some people have been involved for a lot of that time.

Now maybe things would have been different if they had had more money to play with, but we are still suggesting that people should change ideas thay have held for a long time.

And anyway, who am I to get my way, a fair to middling foilist who only picked up a weapon at the age of 24 who has subsequently trained just one up and coming foilist who happens to be his daughter. I don't have a great background in National or International fencing.

Actually maybe that is an advantage because those like me are not hide bound by what has gone before and bring fresh ideas to the table rom different walks of life.

silvercross
-13th April 2006, 15:25
As a general question, what degree of involvement do the regional associations (North West fencing, South West Fencing, etc.) have in the training of fencers at the junior/cadet level? I have very little knowledge of the training structure at the regional levels, and perhaps there might be the clue to raising British Fencing to the next level.

From my experiences coaching football (soccer to the yanks) in the US, the state associations had a good amount of communication and input in the development of their youth athletes. You progressed in their Olympic Development Programme from State to Region to National, so it guaranteeed there was appropriate coaching at all levels. It also allowed the development of talent from more than one single place (though granted, when you got to the national level, you trained in one place). It also provided a solid structure for athletes to progress and improve. In the football case, trials for regional/state/national squads took place towards the end of the season, and ran as part of summer programmes that brought the athletes together to train and develop. Perhaps this could be part of a skeletal framework of fencer development in the UK (granted the americans have tons of money to throw at things, but the Italians, Hungarians, Germans, and Koreans all have populations and resources similar to those of the UK, and yet they manage to produce a higher level of training). I think the system here is good, it just needs a little more structuring in the periphery to ultimately benefit the sport.

tigger
-13th April 2006, 16:05
Yes, Ian coaches the Fri sessions. It's mixed MS and WS. Not sure if WS do other sessions or not.

I think a monthly training camp (subsidised travel for non-Londoners!) would be brilliant. Full day of training, including fitness assessments etc.

We very lucky to live in a small country where we could get together relatively easily if the structure was in place.

tigger
-13th April 2006, 16:12
Back on thread topic:

Tomorrow is the turn of Junior Mens Foil and Women's Epee.

Jamie K's had a great season, but has suffered a broken metatarsal in his foot in recent weeks. Tom Potterton and Dan Robinson also fencing.

Corinna's obviously fencing well, and Louise Highton is there too, so let's hope for great results from them!

Gangsta G
-13th April 2006, 16:40
What a fantastic achievement by Rebecca Ward: Junior & Cadet world champion, & no. 8 in the World Senior Rankings, at the age of 16 (i.e. still with a year of cadet remaining).

Surely this girl has to be the biggest talent/potential talent in world fencing?

rory
-13th April 2006, 16:45
Originally posted by Gangsta G
What a fantastic achievement by Rebecca Ward: Junior & Cadet world champion, & no. 8 in the World Senior Rankings, at the age of 16 (i.e. still with a year of cadet remaining).

Surely this girl has to be the biggest talent/potential talent in world fencing?

Don't forget 2nd in the Jr World Cup rankings.

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 17:05
Originally posted by tigger
Tomorrow is the turn of Junior Mens Foil and Women's Epee.

Jamie K's had a great season, but has suffered a broken metatarsal in his foot in recent weeks. Tom Potterton and Dan Robinson also fencing.

Corinna's obviously fencing well, and Louise Highton is there too, so let's hope for great results from them!

Yes, very good luck - four South West fencers (Still think of Jamie as a South West fencer...) + Louise :)

Boo

tigger
-13th April 2006, 17:30
What a fantastic achievement by Rebecca Ward: Junior & Cadet world champion, & no. 8 in the World Senior Rankings, at the age of 16 (i.e. still with a year of cadet remaining).

And yet she looks absolutely rubbish! Just goes to show, style isn't important!

Jan O'C
-13th April 2006, 17:36
Originally posted by Gangsta G
What a fantastic achievement by Rebecca Ward: Junior & Cadet world champion, & no. 8 in the World Senior Rankings, at the age of 16 (i.e. still with a year of cadet remaining).

Surely this girl has to be the biggest talent/potential talent in world fencing?

I'm sure that she is the biggest potential talent in the world of fencing but she is not a real role model for our fencers.

She is home schooled for which read little education and tons of fencing (this is told to me by the mum of another very successful US WS) and she has zero social skills. So it obviously works but this is not a route that most of our fencers can/will take.

We need to find ways for our fencers to live normal lives and succeed at fencing. The arrangements in place for Sabre at the Factory are a good start and Tigger's suggestions of perhaps once a month all day sessions, maybe opened up to more fencers, could also help.

bydande
-13th April 2006, 18:01
People keep mentioning "The Factory" - but who, what and where is it?

Would be grateful if somebody (anybody) could let out some more details on it - for those of us living on the outer rim of civilisation.

Foilling Around
-13th April 2006, 18:09
Originally posted by tigger
And yet she looks absolutely rubbish! Just goes to show, style isn't important!

But Tigger, those for whom style in unimportant are the exceptions which prove the rule. In general they have something unique about their style, tempo or timing which cannot be coached or replicated and which is difficult to deal with.

Louis CB
-13th April 2006, 18:13
Originally posted by Jan O'C
I'm sure that she is the biggest potential talent in the world of fencing but she is not a real role model for our fencers.

She is home schooled for which read little education and tons of fencing (this is told to me by the mum of another very successful US WS) and she has zero social skills. So it obviously works but this is not a route that most of our fencers can/will take.


Yowch. Sounds like you're a little envious of Ms. Ward's achievements - I understand the need to be patriotic and all, but was it really necessary to piss off so many birds with one stone?

Leaving your home schooled comment aside (which as a home-schooled fencer, I find extremely offensive), I think Ward probably IS a role model, at least for young female fencers. Not many girls I know would be brave enough to go ahead and commit to something (sport or otherwise) the way she obviously has done. And is "tons of fencing" a bad thing? You seem to suggest it is...

If anything, we should be sucking in our pride and learning from what the USA has done in a short space of time. Does this kind of post really help?

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 18:45
Originally posted by bydande
People keep mentioning "The Factory" - but who, what and where is it?

Would be grateful if somebody (anybody) could let out some more details on it - for those of us living on the outer rim of civilisation.

http://www.tangolondon.com/

A haven for ballroom dancing, pole dancing and the back studio is set up as a permanant fencing salle - 4 boxes, short pistes. They also do some fencing courses as well as host squad training sessions - http://www.tangolondon.com/fencing.html

Boo

Louis CB
-13th April 2006, 18:50
Is there an epee squad training at The Factory?

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 18:53
Originally posted by Louis CB
Is there an epee squad training at The Factory?

Am sure there must be - certainly men's and women's foil and sabre train there, can't imagine that epee wouldn't. You would need one of your fellow epeeists (in the squad) to confirm.

Each squad SEEMS to use it differently:
- MF virtually every day.
- WF one Sunday a month
- MS/WS every Friday afternoon.

As Tigger/Jan have said, think it would make sense for Sabre to have one weekend day a month too - really does make it more sensible for those who live outside of London...

Boo

omc
-13th April 2006, 19:06
Originally posted by tigger
And yet she looks absolutely rubbish! Just goes to show, style isn't important!

Amazing isin't it; both in her JS final and CS final she has looked quite second-rate (big hand movements, messy advancing footwork etc.); there is obviously something about fencing her that just isin't translated too well when viewed from 90 degrees, or that is just plain awkward. I'm still amazed she won that CS final although that can probably be attributed to a collapse at the other end of the piste... nonetheless her blade position is quite low; on a lot of her attacks it is almost horizontal as she lunges, perhaps not so good for people trained in avoiding a sabre cutting action?

Piston Broke
-13th April 2006, 19:07
Would be grateful if somebody (anybody) could let out some more details on it - for those of us living on the outer rim of civilisation.

i.e anywhere north of Watford.

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 19:10
Originally posted by tigger
And yet she looks absolutely rubbish! Just goes to show, style isn't important!

Very unusual footwork - a bit unique? Results can't be argued with: two world championship titles and such good junior AND senior world rankings...

So what makes it so affective? Really unusual tempo?

Boo

coach carson
-13th April 2006, 19:28
On the subject of Ms Ward, I initially thought she was not a "pretty" fencer, but then taking time to watch her up close from the L64 in the cadets she does a couple of things extaordinarily well. Firstly, in defence she has incredible reflexes to react to what moves first - whether the hand, blade or body of her opponent. Her success rate in defence, through correct response to her opponent, is unbelievable. Secondly, the timing involved in her attacked is completely unpredictable - she is one of the few fencers that I've seen that I can't predict how and when the hit is going to arrive. It looks messy, but therein is the problem for her opponent.

Moving on to the current thread issue of training, my own view is that we shouldn't be talking about one or two training sessions a week or a month. If we want to compete equally, we have to do so by training equally - i.e. full time and with a professional approach as mentioned above in this thread. Anything less, we just aren't giving our fencers a chance. From what I've seen in the last couple of years in France, Hungary, USA and Russia, that means between 14 - 20 hours of structured training (fencing, fitness, physio etc) each week for the juniors. The few places that offer that sort of approach to training in the UK already produce the better fencers (Brentwood, Millfield, Durham). And I think you'll find the other fencers who are achieving significant results are also putting in the hours with personal coaches. We just don't have many places that have the resources to provide that amount of facility to fencers. To my mind, even if British Fencing could afford one such facility in one region we should bite the bullet and get on with it. And if there is scope in the programme and budget to build on our current successful centres of excellence and individual coaches who are delivering results, then we should also look to build on our established strengths where possible.

kd5mdk
-13th April 2006, 20:02
I've only seen Miss Ward in person once, and she was running around with a group of friends like as normal a teenager as I've ever seen. Can't say anything else personally.

However, even if she hadn't won CWS, Caroline Vloka would have, and 3/4 of the medalists of CWS were American, half of the Junior (and the third made the 8) and the men are having remarkable success as well.

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 20:05
Originally posted by kd5mdk
However, even if she hadn't won CWS, Caroline Vloka would have, and 3/4 of the medalists of CWS were American, half of the Junior (and the third made the 8) and the men are having remarkable success as well.

Indeed, such depth and consistency: not only in sabre, but across all weapons... fantastic performance by the USA.

Boo

Jan O'C
-13th April 2006, 20:09
Originally posted by Louis CB
Yowch. Sounds like you're a little envious of Ms. Ward's achievements - I understand the need to be patriotic and all, but was it really necessary to piss off so many birds with one stone?

Leaving your home schooled comment aside (which as a home-schooled fencer, I find extremely offensive), I think Ward probably IS a role model, at least for young female fencers. Not many girls I know would be brave enough to go ahead and commit to something (sport or otherwise) the way she obviously has done. And is "tons of fencing" a bad thing? You seem to suggest it is...

If anything, we should be sucking in our pride and learning from what the USA has done in a short space of time. Does this kind of post really help?

Dear Louis CB,

No, I'm not at all envious of Rebecca's achievements. I'm sure that many of our fencers could achieve the same if they took the route that her parents have chosen for her. You forget that at her age (and she has been home schooled for some time) it is unlikely to have been her decision thus your comment about 'brave enough' etc doesn't hold water.

Very few of our fencers could/would choose to follow her route and thus she is not a good role model as they can learn little from her that would be useful to them.

I have no problems with home schooling when it is done properly - Felicity and Dom Kerr (WS & MS) are excellent examples of home schooled kids. Intelligent, good social skills, talented musicians, excellent fencers etc etc. They are a credit to their mother who teaches them (or in Dom's case, taught). My comment with regard to Rebecca is that her social and academic education may have suffered at the expense of her fencing thus she is not a good role model.

At the risk of being as rude to you as you were to me (although I wouldn't resort to bad language as you did), your post does not suggest that you are a good example of home schooling since it is somewhat lacking in social skills. However, I don't know you, so I'm sure it is not a good relection of you as a person. Hopefully you wrote it and submitted it without reading it first to see if it might be construed as offensive to a fellow forum user.

Rather than continue this conversation on this thread, please do feel free to e-mail me if you have any further comments you would like to make.

Yours sincerely
Jan O'C

kd5mdk
-13th April 2006, 20:25
Regardless of how any one person achieves their accomplishments, unless you think the entire US team is doing the same, it's not really relevant.

Plymouth Fencer
-13th April 2006, 20:32
And if there is scope in the programme and budget to build on our current successful centres of excellence and individual coaches who are delivering results, then we should also look to build on our established strengths where possible.

Perhaps we should build on our strengths, but does it not seem logical to then suggest that if time, money and resources are plouged into already highly achieving establishments i.e. brentwood, milfield etc. then the other "smaller" clubs will suffer?

It seems awfully elitest to me.

Although the idea is to further raise the standards bar for those already highly achieving, what about those on the fringe of being excellent? How do they get the support and drive to break into world class athletes? There will be an even bigger gulf of ability between competitive fencers, and competitive fencers who can be a part of these "centres of excellence".

A prime example is Corinna Lawrence who fences at my club. She isn't part of a "centre of excellence" as Coach Carson has described them, however, her result in Korea shows she has huge potential. I would argue that Plymouth Fencing Club wouldn't be a club Coach Carson would associate with Milfield, Brentwood etc. but to deny someone that good the opportunity to be fantastic via resources, funding etc. because of their affiliation seems as I highlighted before very elitest.

We cannot unfortunately all choose where we fence. And from watching me fence, Coach Carson must realise that there is potential in other places?

gbm
-13th April 2006, 20:45
Originally posted by Plymouth Fencer
It seems awfully elitest to me.

That's why they call it elite fencing...

The problem is that if you spread the money around every location in the UK with promising fencers, you run out quickly and achieve little. You have to consider economies of scale.

In an ideal world all promising juniors and cadets would live in one place. They would go to school/Uni at that place, or be a full-time professional fencer. They would train all day under a single dedicated coaching AND sports support team. This would also support the senior team. That way fencers fence the best fencers in the UK. You don't become better by being the best, you need to find those who are best and become better.

Foilling Around
-13th April 2006, 20:54
It should be noted that "home schooling" is much more common in some parts of the US than it is in this country.

Disaffection with the state system if rife and the private schools are expensive. Many groups of families get together and pool their knowledge and experience to offer a rounded education to their children.

We have good friends in Indiana who do just that.

Plymouth Fencer
-13th April 2006, 20:58
The problem is that if you spread the money around every location in the UK with promising fencers, you run out quickly and achieve little.

Yes, granted. However, my point is more that Coach Carson seems to be implying that only established clubs and coaches can produce excellent fencers and therefore we should invest the vast majority in them.


The few places that offer that sort of approach to training in the UK already produce the better fencers (Brentwood, Millfield, Durham)

And i disagree. There are very talented individuals who don't belong to huge clubs with the most well know coach, but they should be supported as much as a fencer who can attend a "centre of excellence"
E.g my coach (Andy Hill) Isn't the most well know coach, but at epee, he has coached some of the best, All three Lawrence sisters, Mark Burkhaulter, Chris Greensides, Triatan Lane, and also Hannah Bryars at foil.

coach carson
-13th April 2006, 21:06
I don't think I implied that. With a limited pot of money, you have to make choices - a national centre of excellence is one approach, another is to build on established centres of excellence, another is to invest in coaches who are producing the results. In other words set up in such a way as to attract fencers to the money (facilities/coaches/support) or put the money where the fencers are. I don't think we have the resources to fund everyone everywhere.

Cuppa
-13th April 2006, 21:49
Originally posted by tigger
And yet she looks absolutely rubbish! Just goes to show, style isn't important!

You got that on the button Tigg! She is what you could say, a result of the new timings! Exellent distance and timing but technique does not resemble sabre in any form, with most of her hits coming from out of time counters!

Foilling Around
-13th April 2006, 22:14
A brief question, why are we not bidding to host the World Youth in 2009 or 2010

Surely we need to have at least one practice major multiweapon event.

The last big one we did was the World Student Games in 1993.

gbm
-13th April 2006, 22:20
We are doing the Vets in September, as it is apparently the easiest World Championships to run, but I thought the official BFA plan was to try and host a Worlds before 2012, for exactly the reasons you said. Obviously somebody would have to stump up the cash...

Also, Beijing has the 2008 World Championships (in the two team events eliminated from the Olympics) prior to the Olympics. Would London not get the same?

Boo Boo
-13th April 2006, 22:28
Originally posted by gbm
We are doing the Vets in September, as it is apparently the easiest World Championships to run, but I thought the official BFA plan was to try and host a Worlds before 2012, for exactly the reasons you said. Obviously somebody would have to stump up the cash...

We sort of, except I am pretty sure that the "we" doing the vets will be VERY different from the "we" doing the Olympics. I could be very wrong, but I believe that the vets are very independent (in their organisation and funding) to the BFA.

However, I think that both your suggestion (2012 team champs - if we are in the situation where two teams are still not in the main games) and FA's suggestion (running the cadet and junior worlds) are both great ideas. 2009 or 2010 seems like a good time to run the cadet and junior worlds: less pressure on resources and gives time to put into practice improvements from "lessons learned"...

Boo

Rhi
-13th April 2006, 23:03
Firstly I'd like to say good luck to Crin and her team mate Louise who are fencing tomorrow in the womens epee and also of course to the boys foil.

With regards to the ideal fencing situation, it has to be recognised that young fencers need to get their alevels and potentially a degree to secure a stable financial future for themselves. This is why it is unrealistic and far from ideal to have these fencers training everyday and all day. Professional funding does not last a lifetime.

And now to the elitist training schools subject. I beleive that funding should be given to where there is talent and where there is potential for talent, starting with clubs and coaches who have produced previous fencers of international calibre. As somebody from Plymouth previously pointed out Andy Hill from Plymouth has produced many fencers of whom have reached numerous world cadet/junior/senior championships and held Senior domestic titles as well as BYC titles. There were many more fencers that were not mentioned in the list such as Nicola Caine, Zoe Prescott, Ben Bennett, Naomi Porter and Emily Hepburn however funding has not come Plymouth way.

This does not mean I beleive in funding only going to those places which has produced outstanding talent, but I think experience counts for a lot in coaching and when giving out funding you have to start somewhere. With the history of fencers Andy Hill and other coaches like him have had, I think that if guarantees are being looked for then you won't get much closer!

Sorry about the rant!:)

PM1
-13th April 2006, 23:25
Originally posted by Louis CB
Is there an epee squad training at The Factory?

If there is, it's senior : I know of no junior and no cadet squad training there. Well, having said THAT, it appears that it is ONLY senior using it, since the mens junior team captain knows of nothing arranged for juniors (or cadets), and i'd rather hope she might be involved with it......

Foilling Around
-13th April 2006, 23:26
Just for fun and because I am bored, I have done an analysis of the placings of all the fencers in the Cadet WC.

I have shown the number of fencers entered by each country and the percentage of those fencers who reached L32 or better.

I may have made the odd mistake, but it is basically accurate.

Only 15 out of 55 countries who entered had a fencer make the L8 or better. And we were one of them.

Jan O'C
-13th April 2006, 23:27
Yes, definitely good luck wishes to Corrina and Louise and the male foilists.

Foilling Around
-13th April 2006, 23:33
Further to my post above, 31 out of the 48 placeing of L8 or better come from 5 countries Italy, USA, Korea, Russia and Hungary.

tigger
-14th April 2006, 00:14
I'm an example of a home-schooled fencer too - but I wasn't offended by Mummy O connel's comment. Mostly cos I know she loves me lots ;)

Some of u guys are way too thin-skinned!

I never said rebecca ward WAS rubbish, only that she LOOKED rubbish. Be interesting to see how she progresses as the top fencers get used to her 'style'. Personally I thought Vloka looked a lot more the finished article, and if she get's a better final action in her attack will be the better fencer in the long run.

PS Jamie's pool looks quite helpful!

tigger
-14th April 2006, 00:15
I agree with Rhi - I think Andy is one of the most overlooked epee and foil coaches we have. He has an extraordinary record.

Keith.A.Smith
-14th April 2006, 00:17
Dear All,

MF about to begin and WE later at 11am.

Glad I have got you all thinking and talking!!

Many of your ideas are in our submission to UK Sport already but have not been puvbished till UK Sport approve it all.

Incidentally I do not mind criticism at all based on knowledge and correct facts. Change is often difficult and I am trying to bring it about. Not everyone likes change that but I will not stop trying to improve our situation even if some find it difficult.

I want to address training, access to training, content of training, officials, coaches, referees all of which need attention.



Best wishes,

Keith

Foilling Around
-14th April 2006, 01:16
But Keith, we expect miracles to happen immediately! It is just the impossible we realise will take some time to achieve!

I suppose I will have to take one of my regular "middle of the night" trips down to the laptop to check on the pool results!

Hope the boys and girls are giving them hell.

omc
-14th April 2006, 02:39
KENBER Jamie GBR V V V 3 4 3/5 5 22
POTTERTON Tom GBR V 3 2 1 2 2 1/6 -12 15
ROBINSON Daniel GBR 0 1 V 4 2 1/5 -10 12

Foilling Around
-14th April 2006, 03:02
Not bad for Jamie, he could have done with not losing 5:4 against the Swede, but 3 victories out of 5 will give him a better seeding than if he had 3/6.

Dan may just make the cut, if they cut at 20%, but I don't think Tom will.

doobarz
-14th April 2006, 09:55
HIGHTON Louise GBR 4/6 5 27

LAWRENCE Corinna GBR 3/5 6 21

After Poules

1 SAMUELSSON Emma SWE
2 YIN Mingfang CHN
3 MURONI Marzia ITA
3 HENNING Verena GER

30 HIGHTON Louise GBR
38 LAWRENCE Corinna GBR

doobarz
-14th April 2006, 09:59
L64

35 CARPEGNA Sara ITA bt 30 HIGHTON Louise GBR 15/6

27 LIU Yaoying CHN bt 38 LAWRENCE Corinna GBR 15/12

doobarz
-14th April 2006, 10:04
76 promoted to DE

78 ROBINSON Daniel GBR eliminated
84 POTTERTON Tom GBR eliminated

L64

43 KENBER Jamie GBR bt 22 STANEK Thomas GER 15/11

L32

HORANYI Andras USA bt KENBER Jamie 15/9

PM1
-14th April 2006, 10:59
Louise 40
Corina 44 out of 94, 72 having been promoted

Jamie 31 out of 100

Top half all 3.

Boo Boo
-14th April 2006, 11:17
In Summary...

Men's Junior Foil, 100 entries:
31st Jamie Kenber
78th Daniel Robinson
84th Tom Potterton

Full reults - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/FHJCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Women's Junior Epee, 94 entries:
40th Louise Highton
44th Corinna Lawrence

Full reults - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/EDJCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

On a related note, I was trying to think what country code "MAC" is. Chubby's first guess of "Macadamia" didn't convice me, but we have now settles on "Macau" :)

Very best of luck to all the teams fencing tomorrow (just WF for the GBR, I think - good luck Dominique, Sophie and Laura :) ).

Boo

PM1
-14th April 2006, 11:24
Originally posted by Keith.A.Smith


Glad I have got you all thinking and talking!!

Many of your ideas are in our submission to UK Sport already but have not been puvbished till UK Sport approve it all.

Incidentally I do not mind criticism at all based on knowledge and correct facts. Change is often difficult and I am trying to bring it about. Not everyone likes change that but I will not stop trying to improve our situation even if some find it difficult.

I want to address training, access to training, content of training, officials, coaches, referees all of which need attention.



If nothing else (and boy there is some drivvel and I contribute to it sometimes) this forum gets us talking and exchanging ideas, which carries on out of ether world. You posting on here is a fantastic way of communicating info but cannot be seen as the route to all folks (and not suggesting that that is what you think, Keith), but some info only seems to go on here, or is here before the BFA web page, and may never reach The Sword or in a timely manner, bless it. Once UK Sport approve BFA's submission (whatever it is for), no doubt it will be made available to the wider community for info.

Criticism and comment will always be made on the facts as they are known, so this is a plea to keep us informed, please, subs payer, voters and all: if we got the correct facts to talk about, then we SHOULD have a sound base for discussion.

I'm glad I've discovered fencingnet this champs (thanks guys) and learnt a lot from the discussion on this thread, and in canteens in various places, talking to fencers and their parents who have been involved this time round.

Keep talking to us Keith, and keep plugging away at sports/funding bodies and trying to make fencing and fencer's lives more focused etc.

We live in exciting times !!;) ;)

monobrow
-14th April 2006, 12:18
On a related note, I was trying to think what country code "MAC" is. Chubby's first guess of "Macadamia" didn't convice me, but we have now settles on "Macau" :)


Boo [/B][/QUOTE

Macedonia?

Boo Boo
-14th April 2006, 12:26
Originally posted by monobrow
Macedonia?

Given the names of some of the "MAC" fencers - Ho Long Tin, Chong Weng Po and Ho Sin Mei for example - think that it is more likely to me Macau (Asia) than Macedonia (Europe, formerly part of Yugoslavia) and INCREDIBLY unlikely to be Macadamia (Nut) ;)

Boo

monobrow
-14th April 2006, 12:39
touche

PM1
-14th April 2006, 12:45
I think Macadamia is quite fitting.....:rolleyes:

Gangsta G
-14th April 2006, 13:23
Yes, it is Macao.

PM1
-15th April 2006, 10:13
Italy v Russia in the final.

GBR 14 out of 18, USA 4th GER 3rd

PM1
-15th April 2006, 10:15
Russia 1st
Ukraine 2nd
Germany 3rd

18 teams

(not learnt how to post links properly yet, so I'll leave that to Boo Boo tonight)

Piston Broke
-15th April 2006, 17:47
We would probably stood a good chance of a last 16 in the MS team then.

Jan O'C
-15th April 2006, 21:12
or an 8 with a following wind!

Boo Boo
-16th April 2006, 11:01
Bad luck to the GB Junior Women's Sabre Team - finishing 10th out of 15 teams - losing to Poland 45:21 in the L16.

Another great result for the USA WS team on a very comfortable title - China getting closest (45:32) in the final.

Tableau - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/SDJ%20EQUIPESCopie-AUX/tableau%20de%2016.htm
Full ranking - http://www.kff2006wcjc.com/Result/SDJ%20EQUIPESCopie-AUX/ClasGeneral.htm

Wishing Jamie, Dan and Tom (and pressumably Marcus as top cadet?) the best of luck in the MF team tomorrow.

Boo

Gangsta G
-16th April 2006, 12:27
Why didn't they fight off for places?

Happy Easter everyone!

Australian
-16th April 2006, 12:31
Originally posted by Gangsta G
Why didn't they fight off for places?

Happy Easter everyone!


a quick skim of the rules would have turned up this:

o.43

(c) At the Junior World Championships the teams will occupy places in the table according to their ranking. This ranking is arrived at by adding together the positions obtained by their best three team members in the Junior individual event. On the other hand, if a fencer did not take part in the individual competition, but is participating in the team event, he will be assigned points equal to the total number of fencers appearing in the adjusted individual junior ranking plus one.

The first four places will be fought for. From 5th place onwards teams will be classified, within each round of the table, according to their initial place in the table.

Louis CB
-16th April 2006, 12:43
Kazakhstan wins ME team - am I the only one who didn't see that coming!? *Very* impressive - and at a score of 25-22 against Russia in the final, it must have been a tense match to watch...:o:

I wonder if we'll be seeing Kazakhstan again soon...:eek:

Boo Boo
-16th April 2006, 12:46
Originally posted by Gangsta G
Why didn't they fight off for places?

Happy Easter everyone!

There isn't any need (apart from for the bronze medal) - since there are no "world junior team" ranking lists.

There are "world senior team" ranking lists - this is why teams fence off for place at Senior World Champs and Senior World Cups...

If that makes sense.

Happy Easter :)

Boo

Foilling Around
-16th April 2006, 12:57
Originally posted by Boo Boo

Wishing Jamie, Dan and Tom (and pressumably Marcus as top cadet?) the best of luck in the MF team tomorrow.

Boo

No, it is Ed Jefferies as Marcus didn't stay on.

fencerbill
-16th April 2006, 19:46
Originally posted by Boo Boo
There isn't any need (apart from for the bronze medal) - since there are no "world junior team" ranking lists.

There are "world senior team" ranking lists - this is why teams fence off for place at Senior World Champs and Senior World Cups...

If that makes sense.

Happy Easter :)

Boo

It is most important coming up to the Olympics since that is how they determine who is allowed to come. Any other benefit in non-Olympic years besides the glory (?) of winning Team World Cup award?

Boo Boo
-16th April 2006, 19:48
Originally posted by fencerbill
It is most important coming up to the Olympics since that is how they determine who is allowed to come. Any other benefit in non-Olympic years besides the glory (?) of winning Team World Cup award?

Maybe not internationally, but in GB a team's world ranking may determine whether GB sends that team to the Senior World Championships or not...

Boo

fencerbill
-16th April 2006, 19:56
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Maybe not internationally, but in GB a team's world ranking may determine whether GB sends that team to the Senior World Championships or not...

Boo
Or maybe in some countries who stays or doesn't stay as team coach, etc.