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View Full Version : When refs have it in for you?!



Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 12:55
I was at a comp last month and during the second rounds of poules I was refing, one of the guys disagreed with two of my calls, and then put pressure on me to change my call. He was alot more experienced than me but I still think that my calls were right!!

Later in that poule he was refing me and my opponant, he made two calls that I disagreed with (basically I attacked, he parry reposted but his parry wasn't strong enough to clear the blade and my attack hit, thus still my RoW right??) and he gave the repost, then he made another bad call against me thus loosing me the bought.

needless to say I wasn't a happy bunny!!! Could I have said anything to anybody 'cause I can't help thinking he was getting his own back.

Also when he was refing my boughts he refused to look at me when I saluted him, so I stood there for a while waiting for him to look at me so I could.

What could I have done in that situation??

cheers

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Lynne
-24th July 2006, 13:00
Basically, in that situation, you've just got to make it one light - he can't possibly get that wrong or give the hit any other way. It's a horrible situation to be in.

WRT the salute - I'd have done exactly the same as you - stand there until he acknowledges it - then he can't say that you didn't salute etc. As long as it was not just that he, like many fencers who end up reffing, was not sure what to do and ignored both fencers as they saluted.:)

Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 13:08
No this guy knew what he was doing he has put comps on before and he is quite high in the rankings, I won't say his name as I don't want him to loose face. But he did it on perpose. But hey I still got points from the comp so I'm happy. I just wanted to know if I could request an imparshal ref because I knew I wasn't going to get any calls!!

cheers lynne

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pinkelephant
-24th July 2006, 13:18
Of course, there is another possibility. You admit that he is much more experienced than you and that he "knew what he was doing". Perhaps he was right and you were wrong.

Australian
-24th July 2006, 13:22
I was at a comp last month and during the second rounds of poules I was refing, one of the guys disagreed with two of my calls, and then put pressure on me to change my call. He was alot more experienced than me but I still think that my calls were right!!

Later in that poule he was refing me and my opponant, he made two calls that I disagreed with (basically I attacked, he parry reposted but his parry wasn't strong enough to clear the blade and my attack hit, thus still my RoW right??) and he gave the repost, then he made another bad call against me thus loosing me the bought.

needless to say I wasn't a happy bunny!!! Could I have said anything to anybody 'cause I can't help thinking he was getting his own back.

Also when he was refing my boughts he refused to look at me when I saluted him, so I stood there for a while waiting for him to look at me so I could.

What could I have done in that situation??

cheers

add



Make your actions clearer. Insufficient contact for a parry in foil is such a rare (almost non existant) occurance that i'm sceptical of that actually happening.

Rather than worrying about the referee "losing" you the bout you should think about the other 3 hits you conceded, and the amount you didn't score.

Things can often seem very different when you're on the piste rather than what you've actually done. If you let it get inside your head then you've already lost the bout. Just knuckle down, get on with it, and make 5 clean hits.

Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 13:29
well yea I mean I called what i saw, I could have always been wrong, but from where i was stood it looked like I was right, the both calls were more against reactions than parrying. there was two attacks in which, I saw, the attack from the right just before.

Also (although i didn't mind) when he argued with me he took his mask off, or more like swivelled it up on top of his head. I thought that you had to keep your mask on your head.

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Australian
-24th July 2006, 13:31
Also (although i didn't mind) when he argued with me he took his mask off, or more like swivelled it up on top of his head. I thought that you had to keep your mask on your head.

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you can remove your mask after the referee called halt, but it is considered polite to ask i guess.

Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 13:32
Make your actions clearer. Insufficient contact for a parry in foil is such a rare (almost non existant) occurance that i'm sceptical of that actually happening.

Rather than worrying about the referee "losing" you the bout you should think about the other 3 hits you conceded, and the amount you didn't score.

Things can often seem very different when you're on the piste rather than what you've actually done. If you let it get inside your head then you've already lost the bout. Just knuckle down, get on with it, and make 5 clean hits.

No I agree with you, the pary definatly wasn't strong enough, was more of a bad beat attack and my point conected with out me having to do anything else.

But I totally agree witht the rest of you post, but it does make it a keck of a lot easier when you get the calls (which is proboly what he was thinking as well)

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Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 13:33
you can remove your mask after the referee called halt, but it is considered polite to ask i guess.

Right, cheers

I didn't really mind because there was so much back ground noise it was hard to hear clearly so it made all our lives alot easier

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Boo Boo
-24th July 2006, 13:37
(basically I attacked, he parry reposted but his parry wasn't strong enough to clear the blade and my attack hit, thus still my RoW right??) and he gave the repost, then he made another bad call against me thus loosing me the bought.

This can be quite subjective - some referees "require" stronger parries than others.... some require you to "clear the blade", others just require a "beat type parry that is clear enough to see"... It is quite possible that you and the referee see the two different interpretations of this... (I err on the "beat type parry that is clear enough to see" is strong enough and I certainly don't have it in for you... :) )

Some referees and opponents are very "off-handed" about saluting... that is life. I just do my bit and get on with it (that makes me pollite - if they want to be an idiot, that is up to them ;) ).

I think that "disagreements in refereeing" are a fact of life: have had MANY calls that I don't agree with, I can't honestly recall any of them being because someone "has it in for me" (although there may have been some because the referee "knew my opponents fencing better than mine and tended to assume certain things happened when maybe they didn't", but that is different...). There also fencers out there who I am really not "a big fan of", but every time I referee them I will put any personal feelings out of my head and referee to the best of my human ability.

All referees are human (and make the occasional mistakes) AND foil refereeing can be contentious anyway (if there is an option, I always try to get a referee whose interpretation is pretty consistent with mine). Ok, that doesn't mean that I don't get angry if I loose a hit that I believe is mine... ;)

Boo

Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 13:50
Boo can you ref my next comp please??

Again I agree with this different people see things differently, which may have happened on the calls I made as well. It just seemed far to much like 'right you made a bad call, I'm gonna lake a worse call' my parents (who watched all the fight and agree that I had been 'had'. I know this sort of thing happens in comps it's all part of the fun, i just wondering if i could have said anything?

With regards to the salute, he allowed my opponant to salute and then looked right past me, and when he did acknowledge my salute it was more of a 'fine if i have to' he had been fine before the mishap but then turned.

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Boo Boo
-24th July 2006, 14:02
Boo can you ref my next comp please??

Ah, but you probably wouldn't like my refereeing ;). From what you described (although really impossible to ACTUALLY say without being there), I would have given those two parry repostes against you too... :(


Again I agree with this different people see things differently, which may have happened on the calls I made as well. It just seemed far to much like 'right you made a bad call, I'm gonna lake a worse call' my parents (who watched all the fight and agree that I had been 'had'. I know this sort of thing happens in comps it's all part of the fun, i just wondering if i could have said anything?

It's just hard to know... It certainly SHOULDN'T be that way: I haven't done it to anyone, am not aware of anyone doing it to me, BUT it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen... :upset:

Are both of your parents good fencers? The reason I ask is that parents would tend to support there off-spring. One of the "fun things" about refereeing kiddie competitions can be the barrage of accusations/threats/insults from parents who don't fence and know NOTHING about fencing... They just believe that a referee (with over 10 years fencing/refereeing experience) would be biased and unfair towards their child :whistle: That doesn't mean that your parents are like that OR that the referee didn't cheat you out of the hits... :)


With regards to the salute, he allowed my opponant to salute and then looked right past me, and when he did acknowledge my salute it was more of a 'fine if i have to' he had been fine before the mishap but then turned.

Maybe he was annoyed at you - does happen. I would hope that he would put aside any personal feelings at referee you to the best of his ability - if he felt unable to do that, he should have passed the refereeing of your fight on to someone else.

Boo

ChubbyHubby
-24th July 2006, 14:02
It just seemed far to much like 'right you made a bad call, I'm gonna lake a worse call' my parents (who watched all the fight and agree that I had been 'had'.

Are your parents fencers? If not, how do they know you've been "had"?

If they are, were they standing where the ref was? I am just asking as IMHO non-fencing parents who tell their child they've been "had" is being counter productive (e.g. "yes, your light came on first dear")

From your description of "didn't clear the blade" implies you think for a successful parry the attack can't arrive on target at all?

Most refs will give a parry if there is distinct blade contact, you don't have to push the point off the target, a tap will do.

Fence to how refs give the hits at competitions, not what you think the rules say. Otherwise you'd end up thinking all refs "have it in" for you.

In the situation you were in, the best you can do is to ask "would you mind not reffing my next fight". Most fencers will just say "fine" and let someone else do it.

Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 14:39
TBH my mum has never fenced, however, my dad has fenced for years and has gone really far. they were sat at the end of the piste so they may have had i different view, I was always taught to clear the blade otherwise the parry isn't good enough, my point went striaght through the parry as if not there, surley that doesn't give him RoW does it??

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ChubbyHubby
-24th July 2006, 14:54
TBH my mum has never fenced, however, my dad has fenced for years and has gone really far. they were sat at the end of the piste so they may have had i different view, I was always taught to clear the blade otherwise the parry isn't good enough, my point went striaght through the parry as if not there, surley that doesn't give him RoW does it??

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"has gone really far", as in how far? and more importantly how long ago (as what is deemed a "sufficient" parry nowadays is a lot less than say 20 years ago).

It's very hard to say without watching the hit but if there was distinct blade contact (beat/tap rather than just grazing) then that is usually deem sufficient. You do not have to push their point all the way out, as long as you have deflected it enough from it's original line (even if that means they still hit you on target).

Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 16:10
Right maybe that was what he saw.

It was a while back when my dad was competing so maybe the standard of parries has changed since then, he has taught me a bit so maybe I think like him. He won the mersyside open was 2nd? in the welsh open that sort of thing. may not be really far (sounds like it to me)

oh well cheers guys!!!

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ChubbyHubby
-24th July 2006, 16:25
Right maybe that was what he saw.

It was a while back when my dad was competing so maybe the standard of parries has changed since then, he has taught me a bit so maybe I think like him. He won the mersyside open

Back in the mid-60s right? (I am taking a guess at who you are and who your dad is).

Refereeing has changed a huge amount since then, half the attacks/parries nowadays probably wouldn't be given as such back then.

Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 16:28
late 60s early-mid 70s (ish) so yea it has proboly changed.

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Lynne
-24th July 2006, 16:50
He would have competed against my dad, then.:) I, unfortunately have noooooo idea who you (or he) are, sorry! :o:

nippy sweetie
-24th July 2006, 17:00
Some B***y good fencers in the late 60s early 70s. Could teach some of you young whippersnappers a thing or two! Also general on the piste manners were much better etc. Ah those were the days......................

Lynne
-24th July 2006, 17:03
Some B***y good fencers in the late 60s early 70s. Could teach some of you young whippersnappers a thing or two! Also general on the piste manners were much better etc. Ah those were the days......................

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you :) :) :)
I got mistaken for a 25 year old last month, and that made my day (well, month actually!) You are now officially one of my favourite people, along with Highlander and Tubby!

Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 17:09
Lynne: my Name is Adam Hughes my dads is Charles Hughes (who is your dad he might know him)

Nippy: yea i totally agree i think that manners on the piste have gotten alittle out of control, I (think and try to make my) manners on the piste as good as possible, theres nothing worse than watching a grown man/woman throwing a tantram on the piste (although is quite amuzing to watch) I know I sound like I have been on this thread but I was juat annoyed with him and was wondering if there was anything I could do about it.

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Lynne
-24th July 2006, 17:19
Adam: Colin Hyndman - Welsh Foilist

fencingmaster
-24th July 2006, 17:25
This can be quite subjective
Quite. An experienced fencer learns to the referee not against him (or take up epee!)

Another fencer
-24th July 2006, 19:18
I tend to give beat parries if they are far enough forward. The merest touch of the blade is enough to clear the target early on, but anyone who beat parries deep inside their own guard is really asking for the parry not to be given. So much of whether one gives a parry depends on where it takes place as well as how strong it is. This is a matter of experience for the ref and it will be very difficult for the fencers to decide what constitutes a proper parry.

While I agree with the complaints about the unpleasantness of watching parents/coaches, the quality of the refereeing in so many competitions is of such poor quality that sometimes the griping is justified. More and better refs is the answer.

D'Artignan
-24th July 2006, 19:36
In response to Another fencer - why on Earth would the better refs give up their time to referee at a piddly little (presumably local) competition, just to have their honesty and integrity questioned by people who don't have a Scooby about the sport (ie know-nothing parents/team-mates)?
If I was that good a ref, I know I wouldn't use what little free time I have doing it, that's for sure.

As for Madadd, bad (in one of the fencers' opinions, anyway) calls happen all the time. The ref can only call what they see, so your job is to make it more obvious what's going on. If they still can't see what you feel you're doing, chances are you ain't doing it right.

Oh, and supposedly bad calls even themselves out over the course of time, so you may benefit the next time;)

Adam the Flatulent
-24th July 2006, 19:50
D'art: This wasn't a piddly little comp, ok it wasn't the nationals but it was an open, but the reffing was done by the other fencers. (not sure if that sounds right over the web, wasn't meant to sound like I was having ago, if it did sound like that!!)

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pinkelephant
-24th July 2006, 20:52
In response to Another fencer - why on Earth would the better refs give up their time to referee at a piddly little (presumably local) competition, just to have their honesty and integrity questioned by people who don't have a Scooby about the sport (ie know-nothing parents/team-mates)?
If I was that good a ref, I know I wouldn't use what little free time I have doing it, that's for sure.



Well thank heaven for fencing that we don't all think that way. I am a newly qualified FIE referee and I am more than happy to continue to referee (or run a computer) at any "piddling little" competitions, especially when they involve youngsters.

Australian
-24th July 2006, 20:55
Well thank heaven for fencing that we don't all think that way. I am a newly qualified FIE referee and I am more than happy to continue to referee (or run a computer) at any "piddling little" competitions, especially when they involve youngsters.


Damn straight. I'll referee at any competition I'm asked to, or if i'm vaguelly near the area at the time. Aside from doing a final at nationals this year i've also done done u/11 boys poules and u/13 d.e's of all things at the arnold lpjs (granted only because fnork was there), and a whole day at the haverstock lpjs.

randomsabreur
-24th July 2006, 21:01
My view is generally more of the "if it wasn't 1 light, do it better next time" when it comes to complaining about referees.

I lost a fight at an A-Grade that I should have won, because the French ref didn't give me a subtle hit at 4-4 against a French fencer. Was I annoyed - yes, but mostly at myself, because I knew full well that in that situation (both fencers on 1V, last fight, needing 2V to have a chance to make cut) I would have to make the referee give me the hit by making it so blatent that he couldn't call it against me or one light. Instead I went for a hit on preparation, that I thought was mine (as did supporters at the side of the piste) but was certainly not blatent.

Referees are human - they will make mistakes. Worst thing is in poules where you think you might have made a mistake or two (as ref), and then you fence the person you made the decision against and lose to them because you're feeling guilty - the reason why try not to referee poules I'm fencing in!

D'Artignan
-24th July 2006, 21:04
Well thank heaven for fencing that we don't all think that way. I am a newly qualified FIE referee and I am more than happy to continue to referee (or run a computer) at any "piddling little" competitions, especially when they involve youngsters.Don't get me wrong - I have done a lot of youth events in my time. But then, I've never had my honesty or integrity questioned at any of them (at least, not to my face).

If I had, though, there's no way I'd want to do it again if someone who has no idea what's going on can make judgements on me. Sorry, but I don't take kindly to that sort of thing, and neither should I or anyone. the way I see it is that I'm doing them a favour, using my free time (which I have precious little of) refereeing their off-spring. If they cannot appreciate that, then they don't deserve me repeating the favour.

Boo Boo
-24th July 2006, 21:58
Don't get me wrong - I have done a lot of youth events in my time. But then, I've never had my honesty or integrity questioned at any of them (at least, not to my face).

Never refereed at the Foil BYCs, have you D'Art... :eek: ;) :upset:

D'Artignan
-24th July 2006, 22:13
Never refereed at the Foil BYCs, have you D'Art... :eek: ;) :upset:Yes. You'll notice I never said I hadn't had my ability questioned.....:whistle:

Boo Boo
-24th July 2006, 22:39
Yes. You'll notice I never said I hadn't had my ability questioned.....:whistle:

At the last Foil BYCs (January) I very nearly had a punch up to break up between the parents of two of the fencers I was refereeing... fortunately it didn't get physical, but it wasn't far off! (some VERY bad language and things from one of the parents and children - the badly behaved parent was actually a solicitor in his 50s!!!). It was pretty much a "one light fight" all the way through, so none of the abuse was hurled at me personally... but it was a distressing situation to try to contain.

Bad parent didn't have a clue about fencing, competitions, rules, or manners or behaviour in general! That was obviously rubbing off badly on his impressionable young teenage daughter... :(

Obviously that doesn't relate to the OP! Just a note on how LUCKY D'Art has been in his youth refereeing experience ;)

Boo

D'Artignan
-24th July 2006, 22:55
Boo, that might be because I was once regarded as half-decent up here in the Hinterland;)

Seriously, the only bother I've had from any fencer has been from a young English fencer who didn't like my calls at a competition earier this year. Amazingly enough, he had lost when he started complaining to his parent/coach about being robbed.:rolleyes:

Mind you, I have done that more than once or twice in my younger days, too, so I can hardly make much comment on the issue....:dizzy: God, do i wish I was less of a numpty when I was a kid.:upset:

Baldric
-25th July 2006, 09:01
Boo, that might be because I was once regarded as half-decent up here in the Hinterland;)



Boo isn't exactly regarded as "inexperienced".

I must have been lucky reffing so far, I have only had one incident where a coach pointedly asked me if I was attached to the same club as his kids opponent.

Jnr tells me I look very fierce when I'm reffing (just concentrating - honest!) which might account for it.

I can only remember seeing 2 fights in 6 years where I genuinely thought a fight had been influenced by a ref "having it in" for a fencer. This is different from "Home Town Calls" which happen everywhere, particularly on the continent.

Australian
-25th July 2006, 09:13
I love being foreign. Gives off this impartiality aura.

ChubbyHubby
-25th July 2006, 09:53
...aura.
explains the hippy hair eh? :grin:

D'Artignan
-25th July 2006, 10:10
Boo isn't exactly regarded as "inexperienced".
I think we all know that's not what I meant:nanananan

Maybe the kids and coaches are more respectful (naive?) to refs up here?

Prometheus
-25th July 2006, 10:10
Madadd,

This sort of thing is, unfortunately, part and parcel of the subjective nature of foil as fencingmaster stated.

I think you should rise above it, the alternative is to suffer misery.

Of course you may well experience some unethical behaviour in your fencing career which would make a bad call or two seem rather trivial. For example opponents arranging a friendly ref, or refs who abstain on double lights just when you're fencing their mates.

lol - unfortunately not much you can do about this other than to rise above it and aim to be a great foilist.

Lynne
-25th July 2006, 10:12
I've only had one person have a go about my reffing. (That was nasty though.)

I regularly ref at BYCs and have never had a real problem with parents/coaches.

I must be scarier than Boo!;)

Adam the Flatulent
-25th July 2006, 10:26
Prometheus: I agree with you and have done, all I wanted to know was whether I could do anything about it.

and what are BYCs??

cheers

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ChubbyHubby
-25th July 2006, 10:30
Prometheus: I agree with you and have done, all I wanted to know was whether I could do anything about it.

and what are BYCs??

cheers

add

British Youth Champs. Think you are too old (you are 18?) for them.

Prometheus
-25th July 2006, 11:01
Prometheus: I agree with you and have done, all I wanted to know was whether I could do anything about it.

and what are BYCs??

cheers

add

Do anything at the time? Not really....just move on.

Mighty_Kri
-25th July 2006, 11:02
I must be scarier than Boo!;)

Now there is an understatement.:whistle:

Lynne
-25th July 2006, 11:09
You haven't even met Boo, Mighty Kri! I'm hurt :upset: ;)

Boo Boo
-25th July 2006, 11:27
You haven't even met Boo, Mighty Kri! I'm hurt :upset: ;)

Ah yes, but Mighty Kri KNOWS that I COULDN'T be more scarey... ;) ;) ;)

(and another ;) to ensure that Lynne knows that I am only teasing... :) )

Boo
(going into hiding)

Mighty_Kri
-25th July 2006, 11:29
Does this mean the next time I fence Rhys you will be even MORE Biased and give him more than the usual 5 Point lead.

Lynne you know i would never argue with the ref. (unless they are wrong.):)

Unless Boo rips the heads of Puppies my statement stands.:whistle:

Baldric
-25th July 2006, 11:53
Does this mean the next time I fence Rhys you will be even MORE Biased and give him more than the usual 5 Point lead.

Lynne you know i would never argue with the ref. (unless they are wrong.):)

Unless Boo rips the heads of Puppies my statement stands.:whistle:

I don't know about puppies, but she does unspeakable things to bacon rolls!

Boo Boo
-25th July 2006, 11:57
I don't know about puppies, but she does unspeakable things to bacon rolls!

Yeah, but I CAN tell the difference between a puppy and a bacon roll... even if you don't realise before, puppies tend to yelp when you bite into them... :whistle: (also the ketchup makes their fur all sticky...)

No, DEFINTELY no prior history of ripping heads off of puppies...

Boo
(tempted to bring up Baldric's violent and cruel past/present behaviour with jellybabies... :whistle: )

ChubbyHubby
-25th July 2006, 11:58
Does this mean the next time I fence Rhys you will be even MORE Biased and give him more than the usual 5 Point lead.

Lynne you know i would never argue with the ref. (unless they are wrong.):)

Unless Boo rips the heads of Puppies my statement stands.:whistle:

You obviously haven't seen my scars....:upset:

Lynne
-25th July 2006, 11:58
She hasn't got boots like mine, either:whistle:

Boo Boo
-25th July 2006, 12:05
She hasn't got boots like mine, either:whistle:

What, my big, furry, polka dot slippers aren't as scarey?

Boo

Mighty_Kri
-25th July 2006, 12:56
The image of Lynne in Black Stilleto Knee high boots over her fencing kit will make anyone think twice about arguing a decision.

But we digress...You get bad calls, dont argue or you will be yellow carded( I wish the refs did this more instead of letting the fencer dictate the mood of the match). Just keep thinking Karma. Justice always comes around.(usualy when you dont realy need it. ie in club):thumbs_up

Winwaloe
-25th July 2006, 17:19
In response to Another fencer - why on Earth would the better refs give up their time to referee at a piddly little (presumably local) competition, just to have their honesty and integrity questioned by people who don't have a Scooby about the sport (ie know-nothing parents/team-mates)?
If I was that good a ref, I know I wouldn't use what little free time I have doing it, that's for sure.

As for Madadd, bad (in one of the fencers' opinions, anyway) calls happen all the time. The ref can only call what they see, so your job is to make it more obvious what's going on. If they still can't see what you feel you're doing, chances are you ain't doing it right.

Oh, and supposedly bad calls even themselves out over the course of time, so you may benefit the next time;)


because if the better refs don't turn up and give a good demonstration on how it should be done then those "piddly" little fencers will never understand quite what it is all about. They will continue to be refed by piddly refs who don't have much clue and the fencers will go away with some very strange ideas as to what is right and what is wrong. Fast forward that to some of our better fencers. They go off to overseas comps. and come back wondering why they have been beaten and why the refing is so strange. Reason, because there is not enough "good" refs over here to spread themselves between comps and not enough ref education and communication so that the real and accurate knowledge can be fed down the line to the lowliest "piddly" litte fencer who may one day become the British number one! (NB the "reason" comes from a FIE ref who did give his time to be at a smallish comp and made one hell of an effort to spread the word and give the benefit of his experiene and all credit to him!)

Duncan Rowlands
-26th July 2006, 00:43
If you don't like the way foil is ref'd, whichI can fully understand, then I suggest you take up sabre. We sabreurs are ALWAYS exceedingly polite and never raise more than a quizzical eyebrow at a ref.

Parents on the other hand can be a complete nightmare.

purple
-26th July 2006, 13:33
We sabreurs are ALWAYS exceedingly polite and never raise more than a quizzical eyebrow at a ref.

...

Unless it's a certain A Grade involving Poz. At which point sabourers get rather vocal...

1cypriotfencer
-27th January 2007, 18:52
you can remove your mask after the referee called halt, but it is considered polite to ask i guess.

at a competition recently i was yellow carded for taking off my mask after the referee called halt is there a rule on this?

Duncan Rowlands
-27th January 2007, 19:37
at a competition recently i was yellow carded for taking off my mask after the referee called halt is there a rule on this?

Rule t.87.7 states, "The fencer, whether on or off the piste, must keep his mask on until the Referee calls 'Halt!' He may under no circumstances address the Referee until the Referee has made his decision."

So, if you were walking back to your line and had taken your mask off to wipe the sweat from your brow I'd consider that you were somewhat hard done by. If you whiped your mask off and eyeballed the Ref or spoke to him before he had given his decision then the card was warrented.

Depends of the surrounding circumstances.

bydande
-28th January 2007, 15:13
at a competition recently i was yellow carded for taking off my mask after the referee called halt is there a rule on this?

Did you take your mask off in a controlled manner - or did you take off your mask by throwing it to the floor?

I carded one boy at the BYC's for appearing to throw his mask to the floor after a point was scored against him (his attack failed to land - but his opponents counter did land). Was it you?

fencingmum
-28th January 2007, 16:28
Wish I'd discovered this thread earlier.

Doesn't the original point just support the need for independent refs, and not reffing yourselves in your poule, when "ambiguous" decisions can affect not just the fencer but the "ref" as well?

Duncan Rowlands
-28th January 2007, 17:14
Doesn't the original point just support the need for independent refs, and not reffing yourselves in your poule, when "ambiguous" decisions can affect not just the fencer but the "ref" as well?

A full quota of independant non-fencing refs at every competition would be great. However, this is really not likely to happen outside of A Grades, where the FIE refs get paid.

At Opens many of the qualified refs are also competing, and there simply aren't enough qualified people remaining to cover every pool. Age group events do better as most qualified refs are over 18 & therefore not competing. That said, age group events can be really big. At the BYC foil we ran out of refs on the Sunday & some of the U18 pools had to self ref.

The only way to get to the ideal position of independant qualified refs is for more volunteers to become refs and sit the exams (which are really quite hard, 80% pass mark on the written papers).

The way to encourage people to ref is fairly simple, appeal to experienced fencer's sense of generosity & commitment to the sport to give up their weekends. And after you find you only have 2 refs available you can always try offering to pay for qualified refs. Of course, to raise the funds to pay for refs competition organizers would have to consider increasing the entry fee.

In the short term there would still be a shortage of refs as people developed their abilities. In the medium & longer term fencers can have the quality of refs that they are willing to pay for.

Another factor to encourage people to referee is for fencers (including parents / coaches / mates etc.) to follow the etiquette rules at t.81 to t.93. I have noticed that this aspect is improving a little, I only carded one parent at the BYC foil this year.

Naughty foilist
-28th January 2007, 17:34
Another factor to encourage people to referee is for fencers (including parents / coaches / mates etc.) to follow the etiquette rules at t.81 to t.93. I have noticed that this aspect is improving a little, I only carded one parent at the BYC foil this year.

We did check his temperature but he seemed to be okay. If Banzai Boy is at the BYC Sabre it may be a different matter, :grin: . Quote from Helsinki last year, ' I can't be feeling okay. It's the second day and I haven't carded anyone. Aitkin! Damn, your socks are up.'

UglyBug
-28th January 2007, 17:45
One of the issues facing referees as well is the sheer number of competitions on the calendar at all different age groups. Plus once referees get qualified for FIE those competitions increase as does the travel. Even the most well-meaning FIE qualified referees would in principle be more than happy to come to smaller competitions and train referees or whatever but it is often impossible. I don't even have time to do all the A-grades I am invited to. As an example, I've just come back from Logrono having done 51 A-grade bouts in one day (DT got the allocation wrong and I did double everyone else until it got pointed out to them halfway through the day :-) ), 2nd A-grade of the month, have London A-grade next week, then Camden Int'l, plus Junior Home Int'l at the end of February. And I am by no means a particularly busy referee because I say no to lots of stuff for the sake of my sanity and also, due to the nature of my job, a 70 hours working week is not particularly unusual.

Also, let's face it, refereeing is pretty thankless. I'm not saying that because of any specific poor treatment, but everyone I am sure can admit to at some point having a go at the poor mug in the middle and whether you are a brand new referee praying for your life or a seasoned contender, that can be a bit tedious.

I think the ideas are very good, but there needs to be some thought put into who the humans are that go into it and what sort of personal motivation they need - because let's face it, noone is ever going to get rich from refereeing fencing in the UK!!!