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Skippy
-26th September 2006, 10:05
Does anyone know whether BUSA require matches to be fought on new timed boxes this season, or as per last season are we allowed to use either?

MakeTradeFair
-26th September 2006, 11:37
Surely it would be crazy to still allow old timeing boxes?

madfencer
-26th September 2006, 11:54
I should think that they'd all be on the new timings now...it has been a while now since the new timings were introduced. Don't quote me on that though!

doobarz
-26th September 2006, 13:39
Just had a look through the BUSA stuff, and it all points to running to BFA standards - so I would say new timings as that is what open competitions are using.

Also has a useful team score sheet.

Nick_C
-26th September 2006, 17:39
last year the stance was 'if you have new timing boxes, feel free to use them in matches, but you must declare which you plan to use to the other team if they ask you more than one week in advance'

The BUSA individs and team finals all use new timings.

AELLA
-27th September 2006, 00:18
Surely we can drop the 'new' from 'new timings' and just refer to the old timings as OLD. So from now on, it's Old timings OR timings / 2005 timings / T2005. New is like for a week or a month, not a decade.

Rdb811
-27th September 2006, 21:45
Surely we can drop the 'new' from 'new timings' and just refer to the old timings as OLD. So from now on, it's Old timings OR timings / 2005 timings / T2005. New is like for a week or a month, not a decade.

New Labour ?

AELLA
-28th September 2006, 13:58
Well it seems that they dropped the Labour part as well sometime in the last 10 years. Perhaps the new chap (chapess) will bring it back, whne they rise to power some time after Tony's 10 Year, so June / July 2007.

silvercross
-28th September 2006, 15:43
Yeah, do seem to remember being told by BUSA last year to use new timings boxes, though if both teams agreed, the old one could be used (since some clubs had still not changed to new timings). Not sure if that mutual agreement is still in effect.

Goldilocks
-28th October 2006, 01:27
I am pretty sure our match at Sussex this week was conducted on the Old Timings. Their armourer assured us the LP box had been upgraded but simply lacked the sticker, but when we noticed it felt a bit strange and tested out a few flicks in foil they all worked, even ridiculous ones to the small of the back.

The Sabre behaved oddly as well, in a manner consistent with old timings. As there appears to be no official BUSA line on this I guess it is perfectly within the rules.

No complaints about Sussex at all, we always find them to be a friendly lot, but it would be nice if BUSA would clarify the timing issue once and for all. This far on they really should be saying that matches should be conducted on the New timings unless there are unforseen circumstances.

Graham

Dragonfly
-28th October 2006, 08:36
Howdy peeps, and people from ULU!
*looks sheepish* We had one box out that day that was on the current timings, the girls were using it.
BUSA maintains that comps don't have to be on these timings; if the boxes aren't available, and that if the visiting team isn't happy about it, they can bring their own boxes. It's the responsibility of the visiting team to ask before they begin travelling so if they're not happy, they can bring their own box.
The specific problem to Sussex is we get ~60 a term and the 180 a year isn't carried over from year to year. I forget how much Leon Paul are asking for to have the boxes changed over from one type to another, but we simply don't have enough money when you include other expenses that occur.

Shaolin Monkey
-4th November 2006, 11:19
Surely if the BUSA handbook says that all kit must conform to BFA standards then that includes the boxes in which cases correct timings are compulsory and nobody should be fencing on the old, and now incorrect timings. In my view a club that does not have a box with the correct timings should contact the visiting club to ask if they can bring a box that works correctly. If neither club is in possession of a valid box then a "gentleman's agreement" should be entered into where the old timings are used. Failure of a home club to notify a visiting club that they are not in possession of a box which works as it should should be subject to BUSA reprimand as it would be cheating a club which has trained using correct timings and is thus against the rules and spirit of the sport.

silvercross
-4th November 2006, 11:26
We have that sort of agreement. We normally take on of our new timing boxes with us when we travel so that if need be we can supply a new weapons box. Plus we try and let the AU know that in this case, we are conforming with BUSA standards, and with BUSA being the overseer of all university sports in the UK, if the AU wants us to compete under the BUSA regulations, it would be helpful if they could subsidise the cost of having either a new weapons box or fitting a new timings chip on the old ones. It is after all for the benefit of both the University, AU and Club.

Shaolin Monkey
-4th November 2006, 11:28
It just strikes me as common sense

UglyBug
-6th November 2006, 15:00
It just strikes me as common sense

That's probably where you're going wrong then.....

Nick_C
-6th November 2006, 15:05
i was at a county foil competition this weekend that ran a poule (not a "pool"!!!!!) across two pistes, one with new timings and t'other with an old timings box... Try to imagine how confusing that is to fence on, alternating your fights between one and the other :S

Red
-7th November 2006, 09:49
There were two new timings boxes.....

Nick_C
-7th November 2006, 14:17
yeah but it was in use by the other poule, so we couldnt use it

Red
-7th November 2006, 14:23
Ah.... I was on the spangly new tower lights box all day... Coincidence???

Nick_C
-7th November 2006, 15:10
hmm suspicious at best

Red
-8th November 2006, 10:39
Maybe Hettie has a thing for me....

Goldilocks
-30th November 2006, 03:30
It seems City Uni only have old timings boxes too, so if any of you guys are fencing them and have a deep desire to do so on new timings might be best to email them and ask if you can take a box down...

Personally I don't particularly mind which I fence on, but it seems very silly that this far along BUSA are still being so wishy washy.

Dragonfly
-30th November 2006, 06:44
You have to look at club budgets and whether they can really manage it at the end of the day. Having said this;

FEN 3.7 states, "Competitors clothing and equipment shall conform to BFA regulations".

although

FEN 3.8 says that all fencers should be members of the BFA. Puts me in the clear, but what of our beginners?

So although, yes we should be fencing under the new timings and aren't teams that have old timing boxes evil, something tells me very few clubs follow the rules exactly... Correct me if I'm wrong.

and ULU can't complain on this one, they swapped fencers from the stated running order when they came to Sussex - black card offense.

You have to take the rules more as guidelines.

gbm
-30th November 2006, 08:35
and ULU can't complain on this one, they swapped fencers from the stated running order when they came to Sussex - black card offense.

Not any more... putting fencers on in the wrong order means you have to go back to the last point where it was right and refence all bouts from there.

Maxim
-30th November 2006, 10:24
I personally have no problem fencing on either timings and, if anything, find old foil timings rather more enjoyable. The only problem I have is people not telling what timings the box is on prior to the match. You do not always have time to try the box before the actual match. In our case timings have the implication on the order on the sabre team (I am normally fencing the last fight but on the old timings we have people who are much better than me), so finding out that the box is on old timings after filling the sheet in and starting the match is rather annoying.
I think we have to accept that it is not possible to run every match according to the rules. As it has been mentioned earlier on this thread, some sort of informal agreement is probably the best solution. Either contact the travelling team few days before the match which provides an option of bringing the box with you to the away match; or we just all accept that old timings are fine but you have to let the away team know which box it is (which WAS the case in our last match)

Maxim
-30th November 2006, 10:32
As for changing the order of fencers on the sheet prior to the start of the match, it happens all the time due to the some of the captains misreading the sheet. In my oppinion making changes before the match is fine, but you can of course refer to the famous UCL's Championship semifinal case when the sabre team had to fence epee which I guess can the support the arguement for complaint. But then again, you have to at least complain to the team when this occurs and try to resolve the issue on the spot.

Nick_C
-30th November 2006, 11:16
Not all fencers have to have BFA licences, just all your fencers competing in BUSA matches. You qre quite within your rights to request to see BFA licences at home or away matches - no licence means not allowed to fence.

GBM - it used to be that if a team member came on the piste in the wrong order (even if the referee called the wrong name), the offending team would lose 45-0. Is this no longer the case? This happened to our opposition in busa yesterday.

TLove
-30th November 2006, 11:41
You have to look at club budgets and whether they can really manage it at the end of the day. Having said this;

FEN 3.7 states, "Competitors clothing and equipment shall conform to BFA regulations".

although

FEN 3.8 says that all fencers should be members of the BFA. Puts me in the clear, but what of our beginners?

So although, yes we should be fencing under the new timings and aren't teams that have old timing boxes evil, something tells me very few clubs follow the rules exactly... Correct me if I'm wrong.

and ULU can't complain on this one, they swapped fencers from the stated running order when they came to Sussex - black card offense.

You have to take the rules more as guidelines.

I don't think we were complaining... just pointing out we were fencing on old timings :)

Things like box timings and messing up the order on team sheets is something which can be talked about and sorted out in a reasonable manner by both teams at the match - unless one team want to be sticklers for the rules and really mess the other team up (e.g. Max's UCL semifinal example).

Rules 3.7 and 3.8 (kit regs and BFA membership) are a bit different I think. You start getting into the question of whether you are insured or not when you're fencing the match. I strongly suspect that fencing the match not conforming to these invalidates your insurance, which is bad!

Australian
-30th November 2006, 11:44
GBM - it used to be that if a team member came on the piste in the wrong order (even if the referee called the wrong name), the offending team would lose 45-0. Is this no longer the case? This happened to our opposition in busa yesterday.


o.44 (3) The bouts of each match have to be fought in the following order:
36 52
51 14
24 62
61 35
34

If this order is altered, intentionally or unintentionally, all the hits
scored following the modification are annulled and the match is resumed
in the correct order.

gbm
-30th November 2006, 13:14
Not all fencers have to have BFA licences, just all your fencers competing in BUSA matches. You qre quite within your rights to request to see BFA licences at home or away matches - no licence means not allowed to fence.

The BUSA regulations are a little confusing (or just confused), but my understanding is that you don't need BFA insurance for Conference level BUSA league matches, but that you did for the Premier leagues and the Individuals. I know my club had to pay more to the AU to insure members of the team rather than just club fencers (at one point it was 1 to join the AU, and 3 extra for the team fencers).

pinkelephant
-30th November 2006, 16:09
The rule about coming on the piste in the wrong order was changed within the last year or so.

Shaolin Monkey
-30th November 2006, 17:37
I remember when Northumbria tried to force a forfeit over our girls a couple of years ago when they called the wrong order and our fencer got up to fence, clipped herself in and the error was noted as soon as she was hooked up to the electrics. After much argument and consultation of the rules the issue was resolved and the match was allowed to resume.
Ah don't you just love derby match rivalries...

Nick_C
-30th November 2006, 17:41
ah ok. I haven't kept up with the rule changes.

SM: I think that unless the referee had called "play" for the first time, they rule could not have been applied, although i'm not 100% sure (you could argue, for example, that she was just testing her body wire/weapon and never intended to fence that bout).

Shaolin Monkey
-30th November 2006, 18:01
We found that out during the ensuing argument which is why the girls were allowed to revert to the correct order. But the insult was never forgotten...