PDA

View Full Version : Poor Co-ordination



SteveH
-13th October 2006, 09:52
Ever since my daughter was 9 she has competed at Cambridge LPJS... The event is in the calendar well in advance and we have already sent off the application form for this year's competition.
Regrettably in the last week it has been announced that the London Regional qualifier for the BYC's will be held on the same day... This means that many fencers who would normally attend Cambridge will now be unable to do so... Personally I find this situation disgraceful... can't the organisers look at the calendar before making these late decisions... There are no events the following week for any of the 3 weapons. The only possible clash is the Wimbledon Leon Paul Team Epee on the Saturday... but that should not prevent the organisers from holding the qualifier on the Sunday... allowing those foilists who would like to compete at Cambridge the option of doing so.
Cambridge is regarded as the "Jewel in the Crown" as it is the finale of the series where the results can significantly affect who wins the series prizes.. the youngsters also regard this as the final opportunity to meet up with their friends from around the country before the next series starts.

Surely something should be done to avoid this situation recurring... if not now at least I hope this will be considered for future years.

kingkenny
-13th October 2006, 12:15
The Cambridge foil is always on the same date every year. Who organised the London Regional qualifier for the BYC's.
When did they decide the dates.

Just to check it will be on the 12th of November.

asaba
-13th October 2006, 12:23
The London BYC qualifiers also clashes with a nominated cadet and under20 sabre event, in Moulsford school which means all the sabreurs have to make the choice on missing out on the BYC's or missing out on attending a nominated event which could affect thier ranking.

Is there nothing that can be done to change the date as it seem to clash with events occuring for both foil and sabre??...ranting

SteveH
-13th October 2006, 12:24
We were given the date on Tuesday... it was obviously decided by the London Regional committee very recently... I am aware that protests were made... but the committee has chosen to ignore them

Red
-13th October 2006, 13:45
Lose them at the next AGM then.

kingkenny
-13th October 2006, 13:56
Who is on the London Regional committee.

Saxon
-13th October 2006, 15:36
Please don't blame London before talking to them. And only talk about kicking the committee out if you are personally willing to stand in their place.

It is exceptionally difficult to schedule BYC qualifying events in the autumn term.
The first thing is the closing date - 10 weeks (if I recall correctly) before the BYC final... Next is the various Opens in which the organisers themselves may be fencing... Then we have the international youth events... Then there are the numerous single-weapon "circuit" events... Then of course the two half term weekends; public school coaches often object as their fencers may be away... Then if you use the BYCs as part of your Cadet Winton qualification, you need a reasonable gap before that too...

Is there any will here to require the calendar to be arranged so there is ONE weekend free from at least domestic events so the Regions can schedule their BYC qualifiers all on the same weekend? This would also avoid the (some say) dodgy practice of attempting qualification in more than one Region. Used to have this for the Region Championships weekend, I don't have a calendar on me, so I don't remember whether this is still blocked out or if it was stolen back again.

Baldric
-13th October 2006, 16:00
Please don't blame London before talking to them. And only talk about kicking the committee out if you are personally willing to stand in their place.

Worthy of rep!



Is there any will here to require the calendar to be arranged so there is ONE weekend free from at least domestic events so the Regions can schedule their BYC qualifiers all on the same weekend?

Not a bad idea, but some regions may have particular reasons for using the date that they do - organiser or hall availability. In Southern we use two weekends, because of venue and ref restrictions, as well as to avoid calendar clashes.

Holding your regional qualifier to clash with Cambridge LPJS does seem a bit wierd, particularly for London.

Andy W.
-13th October 2006, 17:01
Just to widen it from London region, Jnr has a similar problem with the SE Region qualifier, as it clashes with the Hereford and Worcester Open foil day on the 3rd December (which Saxon I make only 7 weeks before the BYCs!).

I've asked the SE region to consider a date swop - even to the day before but its not possible they say. They did tell me that a bye can be given to a serious contender for GB cadet team representation but that doesn't describe us (yet).

I support the designation of a weekend for all regions to hold qualifiers, even if different weapons have different weekends to fit their calendars. (might crash the internet 'cause of the scramble for hotels the night after tho')

SteveH
-13th October 2006, 17:15
To start .. I would never consider kicking the committee out... That's not going to achieve anything... We have to be grateful for those who are willing to spare their time organising events!
However simply going onto the BFA website and downloading the latest calendar and examining the various competition dates... especially those like Cambridge LPJS which are cast in stone many months earlier, should give a fair indication of which dates to avoid.
I too agree that it would make sense allocating one date for all the regional qualifiers

Baldric
-13th October 2006, 17:16
They did tell me that a bye can be given to a serious contender for GB cadet team representation but that doesn't describe us (yet).


Says who?

"Contender" implies "working towards" and is not the same as "current top 10 cadet". Andy W Jnr certainly has more chance to progress to cadet team representation faster if she goes to the H & W than if she does the local BYC qualifier.

Almost half of the current cadet WF list has a 1990 birthday, and will go up to jnrs next year. Any points that your fencer earns at H & W will be part of her carry over into the 2007/8 season, and selection will be wide open once the 1990's retire. She has as good a chance as several others of making the GB cadet team if she picks up a couple of decent results at nominated comps.

If I were you, I would ask for the bye. I think the correct procedure is to contact Linda Strachan as WF weapons captain (email addy on BYC site, or PM me for it).

SteveH
-13th October 2006, 17:26
Only problem with that is that everyone will opt for that solution... Why shouldn't my daughter get a bye... she came 10th last year in the BYCs
She too has just started fencing in open competitions this year...and is a novice cadet... where do we draw the line.... far simpler to ask those who created this problem to change the date!
It is important for the novices to qualify for competitions where they can still know what it feels like to come in the top 20 rather than the bottom 20 as they do in Opens

Baldric
-13th October 2006, 17:31
Only problem with that is that everyone will opt for that solution... Why shouldn't my daughter get a bye... she came 10th last year in the BYCs


The point of the bye would only be if they were entering a cadet nominated event, which the Hereford and Worcester is for WF.

The Cambridge LPJS is not nominated.

SteveH
-13th October 2006, 17:36
The point of the bye would only be if they were entering a cadet nominated event, which the Hereford and Worcester is for WF.

The Cambridge LPJS is not nominated.

That's not the answer either... that gives an unfair advantage to cadets...

The answer is co-ordination...

Baldric
-13th October 2006, 18:21
That's not the answer either... that gives an unfair advantage to cadets...

The answer is co-ordination...

I am not sure what you mean by unfair? Being a cadet is just a function of age, nothing else. All under 17 fencers are, by definition, cadets.

The reason that the bye is available is because British Fencing has two systems that can sometimes clash - the Cadet System and the BYC and qualifiers. The Leon Paul Kunior Series, for all that its a wonderful system, is not the responsibility of British Fencing.

Since BF can't control when the regions hold the BYC qualifier, they know that they might clash with a nominated cadet competition, so they allow for the possibility of a bye.

The problem is the words "serious contender" which is open to interpretation. My point to Andy W was that with the relatively small number of active WF cadets, and the fact that so many of them are in their final year, he could make a case for his daughter being a "serious contender". The same would apply to your daughter, but ONLY based on a clash with a nominated competition, not on a clash with the Cambridge LPJS.

SteveH
-13th October 2006, 18:58
I am not sure what you mean by unfair? Being a cadet is just a function of age, nothing else. All under 17 fencers are, by definition, cadets.

The reason that the bye is available is because British Fencing has two systems that can sometimes clash - the Cadet System and the BYC and qualifiers. The Leon Paul Kunior Series, for all that its a wonderful system, is not the responsibility of British Fencing.

Since BF can't control when the regions hold the BYC qualifier, they know that they might clash with a nominated cadet competition, so they allow for the possibility of a bye.

The problem is the words "serious contender" which is open to interpretation. My point to Andy W was that with the relatively small number of active WF cadets, and the fact that so many of them are in their final year, he could make a case for his daughter being a "serious contender". The same would apply to your daughter, but ONLY based on a clash with a nominated competition, not on a clash with the Cambridge LPJS.

By being unfair I simply mean you are giving the older fencers a way out... a way to qualify purely on the strength of their being cadets and having accrued points... My point is that there are many U12s and U14s who participate in the LPJS and who now have to choose between Cambridge or the BYCs... This also applies to the sabreurs... once the system allows cadets to enter purely because of their standing rather than qualifying for the competition the whole system will crumble... We are talking of all age groups not just the U17s... This is a BRITISH YOUTH CHAMPIONSHIP... the BFA should take control of the regional qualifiers if the regions aren't capable of doing the job themselves.

Baldric
-13th October 2006, 19:06
The answer is co-ordination...

True - up to a point.

I had the pleasure of attending the Southern committee meeting this year to settle our calendar.

It is absolutely impossible to find a set of dates that don't clash with something, so someone is going to be unhappy.

There is also the most mundane of human reasons - organisers who can't run a comp on a particular day, because of a family wedding, or work commitments.

Believe me, when you ask round the room for alternative organisers to step forward, you don't exactly get trampled in the rush!

Last year, when the EYC U13 date was planned, both PM1 and I checked the date (at the request of the organiser) It still clashed with two other youth comps that weren't even on the calendar - one of which was very long standing, and the other was an official BF comp!

It really isn't as easy as it sounds. However, I am surprised that clashing with the Cambridge LPJS couldn't be avoided.

Regards

Baldric

Baldric
-13th October 2006, 19:09
By being unfair I simply mean you are giving the older fencers a way out... a way to qualify purely on the strength of their being cadets and having accrued points... My point is that there are many U12s and U14s who participate in the LPJS and who now have to choose between Cambridge or the BYCs... This also applies to the sabreurs... once the system allows cadets to enter purely because of their standing rather than qualifying for the competition the whole system will crumble... We are talking of all age groups not just the U17s... This is a BRITISH YOUTH CHAMPIONSHIP... the BFA should take control of the regional qualifiers if the regions aren't capable of doing the job themselves.

Ok - I think we just have a difference in language. When I say "cadet", I just mean an U17 fencer (many of whom are only 12 or 13) who has ambitions as a cadet, not necessarily the strong ones. (Often one of the cadet teams is away on BYC day)

Thats why the "serious contender" wording is so inadequate.

Baldric
-13th October 2006, 19:21
the BFA should take control of the regional qualifiers if the regions aren't capable of doing the job themselves.

Sorry to sound so negative, and I do appreciate how p!ssed off you must be - choosing between the finale of the LPJS and the BYC qualifier is a horrible choice.

However, BF is only another set of volunteers (actually, most BF officials are also officials of their own region). I don't think that they have anything like the resources required to run 14(?) regional qualifiers, on a very limited number of weekends.

Perhaps if you got together with a number of other parents in a similar situation, and lobbied the committee, perhaps combined with an offer to help run the event on an alternative weekend?

Foilling Around
-13th October 2006, 20:22
The clash between the London BYCS and Cambridge is a problem. A fencer who has a chance of making top 4 in the LPJS and decides not to go could be forfieting 25 -100 voucher.

I do not see the H&W clash in the same way. At WF it is B nominated, it will not affect seriously anyone's ranking. The young fencer should do the BYC or the LPJS in preference.

Cambridge LPJS also clashes with a WF Cadet trip to Tauberbischofsheim. So the 1991 and 92 birthdays could be missing out. We have no choice about the date of this event. In actual fact most of the WF fencers who are in the right age group and going abroad do not do the LPJS series.

I do agree that we always have this kind of clash each year. It is difficult to avoid.

pinkelephant
-13th October 2006, 21:45
I got flak from our region last year - not because I clashed with another competition, but because to avoid such a clash I used the Eden Cup weekend (the only fencers who would be affected already had byes to the BYC finals). This meant that it was the first weekend of half term, and parents wanted to go on holiday. You really can't win.

Baldric
-13th October 2006, 23:18
I do not see the H&W clash in the same way. At WF it is B nominated, it will not affect seriously anyone's ranking.

This may be true for the top dozen or so cadets, but it most certainly is not true for the younger, up and coming cadets. With so many 1990 birthdays in the cadet list (ie in their last year), the starting positions next year could be important - and an extra few hundred carry over points could make all the difference as to who is 16th and who is 17th when the first foreign is selected.

Surely this is the point of the B nominated comps - to give younger cadets a foot on the ladder. Otherwise, why have them at all?



The young fencer should do the BYC or the LPJS in preference.


It depends on the ambitions and outlook of the fencer. Neither solution is "right" or "wrong" in itself.

Baldric
-13th October 2006, 23:47
......an extra few hundred carry over points could make all the difference as to who is 16th and who is 17th when the first foreign is selected.......


Just to illustrate this, in the current list (post Bristol) the difference between the 16th ranked fencer and the 17th ranked fencer is only about 50 points.

SteveH
-14th October 2006, 08:45
Just to illustrate this, in the current list (post Bristol) the difference between the 16th ranked fencer and the 17th ranked fencer is only about 50 points.

I totally understand this element of the discussion... but this is drifting away from the initial problem... There are many kids U12 and U14 who are not yet chasing points, haven't even thought about entering internationals... but are participating in the LP series.... to them Cambridge is the culmination of a year's hard work, travelling around the country trying to excel and to win a prize... the only other major competition most of these younsters will fence in will be the one they consider the most prestigious... the BYC... to have to choose one or the other in my mind is disgraceful. I checked my diary... last year Cambridge was on the 2nd weekend in November (the 13th)... the year before it was on the 14th November... again the 2nd weekend... meanwhile the London qualifier was the week after Cambridge in 2004 but held on the 16th of October last year. Obviously there is no consistency in when it is held... and I am going to assume that this year the late announcement was a panic reaction to trying to find a venue at the last minute.
From all the discussions and responses it is clear that the current situation is far from satisfactory... The obvious alternative in my mind is for the BFA to stipulate one date in the diary... maybe one for foil and if neccessary another for epee or sabre... and then for the regional committees to make arrangements to hold the qualifiers on those dates. This would mean the date could be published well in advance and as best as possible designed to avoid clashes... furthermore it would stop those who fail to qualify in one region from attempting to qualify in another.

Baldric
-14th October 2006, 09:32
There are many kids U12 and U14 who are not yet chasing points, haven't even thought about entering internationals... but are participating in the LP series.... to them Cambridge is the culmination of a year's hard work, travelling around the country trying to excel and to win a prize... the only other major competition most of these younsters will fence in will be the one they consider the most prestigious... the BYC... to have to choose one or the other in my mind is disgraceful.


Can't argue with any of that.

I think that one of the things that fencing organisers consistently overlook is the psychological effect on the kids.

Its all very well for us adults to talk about choices, priorities and systems, but from the kids perspective, its just a de-motivator.

I also agree with the "one nominated date" idea. It is not without problems, but I think it is probably the least of several evils.

Best of luck.

Baldric

doobarz
-15th October 2006, 21:17
This meant that it was the first weekend of half term, and parents wanted to go on holiday.

Which varies from LEA to LEA....

It does seem a shame, but competitions have clashed before. As Steve says, perhaps it was a late decision and the venue was only avalable on a certain date?