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Peter Pan
-27th October 2006, 15:31
So you want to fence for GBR in 2012?

BFA Pathway details now published

http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=436

Spider5
-27th October 2006, 15:58
Looks like a serious plan and hopefully this won't end with the 2012 Olympics although I would imagine future funding for fencing will be linked to the fencing results in 2012.

All the best to all who are involved with it.

Twohat
-27th October 2006, 16:53
" . . .Those in full time education/work or under the age of 16 are unlikely to be considered eligible for this programme, at this time."

Under 16 I can understand (just), but surely excluding those at university is missing out on fencers who will be at their physical peak by 2012? Also, excluding those in full time work? There can't be many who can afford to live in London or the South-East on £5000 p.a. If the training is going to be intensive and physical they will need to spend that on food! Does this mean only rich people need apply?

Apologies if I'm missing something, perhaps someone will put me right?

Stephen Chivers
-27th October 2006, 18:36
Apologies if I'm missing something, perhaps someone will put me right?Me too! You have to have left school / college, be unemployed, live in (or close to) London and be able to survive on a grant of just £5,000 per annum in order to apply? This cannot be correct: or if it is I shall be very interested to see the list of applicants!

Foilling Around
-27th October 2006, 19:45
Given this statement

" . . .Those in full time education/work or under the age of 16 are unlikely to be considered eligible for this programme, at this time."

and these questions from the application form.

Are you prepared to move to London with effect from January 2007?
Are you prepared to give up work or full-time education?

and the the time scale involved, I am confused as to the target audience.

The allowance involved is £5000, but TASS funded athleted will not get this.

If you are in Sixth form, how can you commit to giving up at this short notice?
If you are at University then can you rearrange your studies (Open University or part time) at this short notice.
If you are working, you need to give notice and £5000 is not exactly a lot to live on in London.

I suppose the answer might be that in order to make the Olympics you have to show that type of commitment.

I will be very interested to see who applies and gets places.

It does not say how many places are available and it is the type of criteia which reads as if it is aimed at a small select group of people.

Lee Spiers
-27th October 2006, 19:52
shame i am too old and not good enough!

I could get a posting to london and paid fully by the army while doing this full time................. bugger

Twohat
-27th October 2006, 22:04
I hope I've got this totally wrong, but it appears to reinforce the false notion that fencing is an elite sport only open to those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.
Also I'm not sure how to square it with the olympic ideal of amateur status . . .
I just feel sorry for those with the talent but not the money, but I suppose that's life . . .

Insipiens
-27th October 2006, 22:31
well I am getting married soon and already live in London. maybe my wife will suport me for the next few years while I try to get into the team? :whistle: she could pay the mortgage and I could do footwork; it would be worth it for the sake of saying I tried to be an olympic athlete. :rolleyes:

realistically if you are not already in the GB team I cannot see you being selected - the BFA has to make it available to any applicants but the applicants who deserve to get the places will be the ones at the top of the ranking swho are already fencing for GB.

Insipiens
-27th October 2006, 22:36
Also I'm not sure how to square it with the olympic ideal of amateur status . . .

You don't even pay tax on the first 5K of income. it hardly compares with fencers from other countries let alone most olympic athletes.

Twohat
-27th October 2006, 22:57
You don't even pay tax on the first 5K of income. it hardly compares with fencers from other countries let alone most olympic athletes.

I was referring more to the fact that you aren't allowed to have another job . . .

JulianRose
-27th October 2006, 22:58
You don't even pay tax on the first 5K of income. it hardly compares with fencers from other countries let alone most olympic athletes.

and your funding from UK sport is tax exempt as long as it is your only source of income from your sport. if you start earning money from your sport then you are considered to be a professional.

gbm
-27th October 2006, 23:43
I was referring more to the fact that you aren't allowed to have another job . . .

I read it as saying you were not allowed to have full-time work i.e. you could get a part time job and train at the same time, and the 5k per annum would cover you for the time spent training instead of working. If you earnt say £5k working 20 hours a week part time at £5 an hour, and got the £5k for fencing, you would have £10k to live on. And if funding from UK Sport is tax exempt, you would pay no income tax on any of that. This compares roughly to what you get to do a PhD (OK maybe slightly lower) from one of the science funding bodies...

Also it sounds like all your competition expenses, equipment etc. would all be paid for, and remember the £5k figure is only for new entrants to the scheme - presumably as 2012 approaches and the numbers whittle down, the money would increase to allow full-time training.

Baldric
-28th October 2006, 07:25
Lets start by acknowledging that its better than what we have had before. Any programme is welcome.

The timescale is very short, and I would have thought it might have been better to set the deadline as July 2007. This would have allowed current students to complete their academic year, and negotiate with the university or college for some sort of sabbatical period, which would allow them to return to their studies if funding is withdrawn, or they don't make the grade. Some employers might have made similar arrangements, but probably not at 8 weeks notice.

It should be possible to live in London as GBM describes, working 20-25 hrs per week at not-much-more-than-minimum-wage, plus the tax free grant, assuming that all comp/travel/equipment costs are met, and that several fencers band together to share accommodation. But it will be a pretty frugal lifestyle unless a sponsor/partner/parent helps out financially. I suspect it will be much easier to get commercial sponsorship once you are on the programme.

As FA points out, you have to make a commitment.

I have a little worry that we are spreading the few resources that we have available too widely, and therefore too thinly. I could not see the number of fencers that they are proposing to take, although the implication is that there will be some drop out over time, and that awards may be increased as 2012 approaches.

Best of luck to all who apply.

gbm
-28th October 2006, 10:05
I agree the timescale is very short for something that may very well take up the next 6 years of your life.
It won't be much different to being a slightly richer undergraduate or marginally poorer postgraduate... the money should be enough to live on in reasonable (student style) comfort.

I'm trying to live on about £5 1/2k this year... :whistle:

Lucan
-29th October 2006, 00:31
There is something Scots may need to look at if this is a
"*GB World Class Performance Plan*" then our accepted fencers may be
entitled to Scottish Institute of Sport's "Targeted support Sport
Programme" and to funding from Oil tycoon Sir Bill Gammell, new Scottish
Institute of Sport Foundation.

http://www.sisport.com/sisport/59.html?pMenuID=5&pElementID=18
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=258552006
http://sport.scotsman.com/athletics.cfm?id=1562762006

Mc Flurry
-29th October 2006, 09:26
this is all great when u just look at fencing,but what about the real world?? i mean you could drop everything for the sake of possibly competing in the olympics, but you are gonna loose friends, the opportunity of actually enjoying university, having any form of qualificaton, and yet after those 6 years, what are you gonna have to show for it?? a medal perhaps, providing you didnt have a bad day on the actual comp and loose 15-14 in the 64?! or break your leg after 4 years? a lot to get your head around.

Baldric
-29th October 2006, 09:29
this is all great when u just look at fencing,but what about the real world?? i mean you could drop everything for the sake of possibly competing in the olympics, but you are gonna loose friends, the opportunity of actually enjoying university, having any form of qualificaton, and yet after those 6 years, what are you gonna have to show for it?? a medal perhaps, providing you didnt have a bad day on the actual comp and loose 15-14 in the 64?! or break your leg after 4 years? a lot to get your head around.

Olympic medals are not won by people who worry about these things.

Twohat
-29th October 2006, 09:49
Don't get me wrong, I am all for this pathway scheme, and I wish success for those who can afford to gamble their whole future on the chance that they may achieve Olympic fame.
I just want to be assured that this isn't a pre-requisite for Olympic selection.
If there are fencers around in 2011 who haven't been through the BFA's training mill, but are capable of excelling at international level, will they still be eligible for selection?

Baldric
-29th October 2006, 09:53
You would have to ask Graham, but I think you can safely bet that he will do whatever it takes to maximise the chances of a British Fencer winning a medal, regardless of how and where they trained.

Boo Boo
-29th October 2006, 09:54
Olympic medals are not won by people who worry about these things.

Agreed: it sounds like a great opportunity (assuming that those selected will get top class training and support...) for those willing to make the sacrifices... :)

Hopefully there may be chances for additional funding/sponsorship on top of the £5k for living expenses - I would guess that £5k might just about cover your yearly rent in many bits of London... Maybe the BFA will support the selected athletes by suggesting bodies to approach for additional grants etc... (like Lican has suggested for the Scots, other opportunities must also exist).

Boo

Boo Boo
-29th October 2006, 10:04
If there are fencers around in 2011 who haven't been through the BFA's training mill, but are capable of excelling at international level, will they still be eligible for selection?

I would GUESS that the plan is (with this BFA Olympic Pathway) that Britain will already have a full squad of fencers "excelling at international level". So, to be considered, any fencer who had not gone through the "BFA's training mill" would also already have to be excelling and not only "capable of excelling". I would assume that is the plan, anyway...

If someone else gets there (is excelling at international level") by then anyway, then I would guess that there would be huge "incentives" to join the scheme before that... I am sure that there are "levels" within this Olympic Pathway Scheme - what was published is for the "entry level"... I would be surprised if it applies to those already excelling at senior international level.

I was a little alarmed at the lack of any clear, transparent selection criteria (either for being selected for the scheme, itself, or just for being selected for the "slection trials"), but there you go... :rolleyes:

Boo

pinkelephant
-30th October 2006, 16:47
It's a pity nobody bit the bullet and moved the whole caboodle into a less expensive part of the country where £5000 would go a lot further.

Baldric
-30th October 2006, 16:53
It's a pity nobody bit the bullet and moved the whole caboodle into a less expensive part of the country where £5000 would go a lot further.

Yes. It occurred to me that it might be possible to form some sort of tie up with the military. They tend to have excellent sporting facilities and cheap basic accommodation. They have also been losing headcount over the last few years.

In Portsmouth, we have a fabulous sports facility at HMS Temeraire, woefully underutilised since the navy establishment has been reduced. There have been various partnering schemes with schools etc so that the community can benefit. Maybe the city council would have chipped in with some money for the kudos of having an Olympic sport training in the city.

Still, as I said before, its easy to criticise. At least we have something going on.:thumbs_up

O*N
-30th October 2006, 17:17
All applications will be considered.

As long as there are no follow-up questions about actual nationality I think I'll give it a go.

D'Artignan
-30th October 2006, 17:28
I think they'd get you on the technicality of lack of talent.....:tongue:

[/hypocracy]

cainey
-30th October 2006, 22:06
Saw this the other day:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/gymnastics/5357868.stm

Of course I realise that gymnastics is a very different sport to fencing, so a gymnast of 14 now is possibly more of a 2012 prospect than a 14 year old fencer (- I did say possibly!)

But i did like his quote

'Gymnastics is everything to me.

The Olympics is the biggest competition in gymnastics and one of my dreams is to be there.'

He may have a more favourable path to the Olympics than the BFA pathway seems to be offering but I dare say that most sacrifices necessary to get there will be made. He also has a refreshingly simple view of things, so obviously is surrounded by the right people, keeping him young and enthusiastic - not as simple as it sounds!

I agree with Baldric's view on the details of getting to 2012


Olympic medals are not won by people who worry about these things.

I just wish I had shorter teeth to have a go at making it happen

cainey

best wishes to all applying for the pathway scheme

:)

madfencer
-31st October 2006, 08:32
Good luck to everyone applying for this scheme :) ....I would...but i'm not nearly good enough!!

kingbob
-31st October 2006, 08:40
Good luck to everyone applying for this scheme :) ....I would...but i'm not nearly good enough!!

It doesn't matter, go for it and show that your dedicated to the sport, thats all you have to do.

KB :sabre:

madfencer
-31st October 2006, 08:45
Are other people on here going to apply just to show they are dedicated to the sport then?

And plus im in full time education till after my A levels in June of next year so I dont actually know if I would and also see page 2....I dont have any of that!...!!

Boo Boo
-31st October 2006, 09:01
Are other people on here going to apply just to show they are dedicated to the sport then?

And plus im in full time education till after my A levels in June of next year so I dont actually know if I would.

I THINK that kingbob means that the ONLY requirement to get onto the scheme are complete dedication to the sport... well that and that you are a "talented fencer" (according to http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=436). Although "talented fencer" is a very subjective term...

The "Requirements Engineer" in me believes that if you meet these two criteria, then you are in! The cynic in me believes that the requirements published are on the very "light" side of the truth... Chubby believes something even more cynical.

There is no point applying just to show your "dedication to the sport" (if you are not 100% serious about committing to the scheme until 2012 - then you are wasting your own time and other peoples...).

I could be wrong, but I assume that the scheme would make allowances for people finishing their A-levels next Summer... either that or there will be future opportunities to enter the scheme (maybe once a year). It would be mad for the BFA to exclude everyone who is under the age of 18 completely...

Boo

Dalesman
-31st October 2006, 11:31
If you just look at the ranking, you could be in trouble. Some fencers when young have bad days/ working on GCSE etc so their ranking maybe well down. The age of a fencer for the 2012 is about 15 to 19 years old if they are talented at fencing they are going to genrally talented in education.

Don't bother with the saying if they are dedicated they will do it, if they take on 20 how many will make it, one. That's only 5%, would you risk the rest of your career etc for a 5% chance.

They need to take on 20 arrange training that they can fit around education and run week long sessions at half terms and most of the summer. A parent is not going to allow little Johney/Joanne to risk that, and therefore you run the very large risk of excluding the most talented.

Wanabeno1
-31st October 2006, 11:40
A great opportunity, but not thought through for the target audience.

They are liable to be 15-20 and need to think about their careers unless they want to be a pro coach not just a fencer.

A simple injury and they could be out with no backup plan!!!

Baldric
-31st October 2006, 12:08
Don't bother with the saying if they are dedicated they will do it, if they take on 20 how many will make it, one. That's only 5%, would you risk the rest of your career etc for a 5% chance.

They need to take on 20 arrange training that they can fit around education and run week long sessions at half terms and most of the summer. A parent is not going to allow little Johney/Joanne to risk that, and therefore you run the very large risk of excluding the most talented.

Sorry Dalesman, but I think you are absolutely 100% wrong.

The last thing we need is an airy-fairy, gifted amateur programme.

Public money is being spent here to WIN MEDALS not to support the dreams of just ATTENDING the games.

Out there in China, Russia, Korea, Hungary, Italy etc, they are full time athletes, working flat out at fencing. We are not going to beat them with fencers who are also studying full time, or following a career.

The primary requirement for an olympic medallist is determination and commitment, not talent.

You are quite right that its a 1 in 20 chance, just to get there, and then 1 chance in a 100 of a gold medal - maybe less. Better odds than those in many sports, or music or other areas who give up just as much.

To paraphrase an old saying "The cowards won't start, and the weak will die on the way".

Its a tough world.

Stands by for -ve rep! :eek:

Red
-31st October 2006, 12:43
Does anyone have the definition of 'talented fencer' that BF are using?
Is this top class now? tomorrow? next year?

ChubbyHubby
-31st October 2006, 12:47
A great opportunity, but not thought through for the target audience.

They are liable to be 15-20 and need to think about their careers unless they want to be a pro coach not just a fencer.

A simple injury and they could be out with no backup plan!!!

Similar to what Baldric said, they want people who are 100% committed. Not 99%, not 95%.

The scheme isn't excluding people in part time education.

100% means "it's the only thing that matters, I'll do whatever it takes no matter what"

If you are asking "what if I don't make it? what if I am injured?" then it's not a programme for you.

It is certainly true that there is probably some politics involved, I'd bet they already have certain people in mind - and that if you are not one of them you'll have very little chance getting past the trials stage.

There doesn't seem to be a published selection criteria which probably means it is "by sole discretion" of the PD. I guess IMHO I think they should at least say that and make that the published criteria.

It wouldn't surprise me if a few keen but naive fencers who are currently "unknown" thinking "right, I am committed, I am willing to move to London etc, this will give me the training I need to get there", but I'd imagine the truth is that if you are not already competing internationally, the chances of getting in are slim indeed.

pinkelephant
-31st October 2006, 13:28
It's a pity nobody bit the bullet and moved the whole caboodle into a less expensive part of the country where £5000 would go a lot further.

Would the person who negative rep'd me for this care to say why? Oh, and who they are would be nice too.

Lucan
-31st October 2006, 13:34
But what is so special about January 2007? Instead of July 2007 when you
do not waste a year's education. Fencers are intelligent and are going
to ask what differents will 5 months will make.

Wanabeno1
-31st October 2006, 13:43
"Public money is being spent here to WIN MEDALS not to support the dreams of just ATTENDING the games"

Publc money, could you live on £5000 a year in London, that would cover train/undergroud fees with a bit left over.

You have to remember the age group that they must be looking at, do you see any fencers in that age group that did not get/expect good GCSE results?

If they where that serious they would name the people they want and support them properly. Some fencers get good results early on with a style but not too much skill, others have great skill but early on don't get the results because thay are developing that skill for the future. Who would you train for the future?

Dalesman
-31st October 2006, 13:44
Do they expect the people they pick now to be the answer, or will they reject some each year and replace them with better prospects?

Baldric
-31st October 2006, 13:49
But what is so special about January 2007? Instead of July 2007 when you
do not waste a year's education. Fencers are intelligent and are going
to ask what differents will 5 months will make.

That part I agree with (see my post on page 1 of this thread)

Baldric

Baldric
-31st October 2006, 13:57
[quote=Wanabeno1 Who would you train for the future?[/quote]

I would invite applications, with stringent criteria for commitment

I would look at the records of those who applied

Then I would hold trials, and do comprehensive medical and psychological testing.

Then I would decide on my "first tranche" of funded athletes.

Which is exactly what Graham Watts is proposing. My only reservations are that a)July 2007 would have made more sense, and b) I worry that we are spreading the money too thinly, but thats hard to judge without seeing the numbers.

And although its only £5k per head as living expenses, in total its 2.7m of public money iirc. Speaking as a taxpayer/lottery player I want that money to go to a 100% committed athlete, not to subsidise the pie-in-the-sky aspiration of someone who thinks they can train as a doctor and train to win a gold medal at the same time.

Baldric
-31st October 2006, 13:57
Do they expect the people they pick now to be the answer, or will they reject some each year and replace them with better prospects?

Presumably the latter.

ChubbyHubby
-31st October 2006, 14:20
"Public money is being spent here to WIN MEDALS not to support the dreams of just ATTENDING the games"

Publc money, could you live on £5000 a year in London, that would cover train/undergroud fees with a bit left over.

You have to remember the age group that they must be looking at, do you see any fencers in that age group that did not get/expect good GCSE results?


I don't think they are saying they expect you to live on the £5000 and that £5000 only. They are not saying you can't have a part-time job.

So the £5000 seem to be intended to suppliment the reduced income.

As for GCSE's etc, on the BFA site it said....

Those in full time education/work or under the age of 16 are unlikely to be considered eligible for this programme
So if you taking or about to take GCSE's you are too young to be considered anyway.

Boo Boo
-31st October 2006, 14:20
But what is so special about January 2007? Instead of July 2007 when you
do not waste a year's education. Fencers are intelligent and are going
to ask what differents will 5 months will make.

I am wondering if it has something to do with the senior international calendar and qualification for the 2008 Olympics (qualification for Beijing, I assume begins in May 2007...).

My guess is that this Olympic Pathway (for 2012) will be using the 2008 Olympics as some form of intermediary goal. I assume that the the BFA will be looking to send the teams/squads from the selected athletes to all of the FIE team events this year (in an attempt to get their seedings up and to qualify teams for Beijing). The same for individuals. I guess that they are looking to control the teams/squads (and their training) before the 2008 Olympic qualifying begins. I could be COMPLETELY wrong... :)

Despite what someone said, I can think of a few examples of good/promising fencers who aren't "academically inclined/focussed".

Boo

AMC
-31st October 2006, 14:55
If you just look at the ranking, you could be in trouble. Some fencers when young have bad days/ working on GCSE etc so their ranking maybe well down. The age of a fencer for the 2012 is about 15 to 19 years old if they are talented at fencing they are going to genrally talented in education.

Don't bother with the saying if they are dedicated they will do it, if they take on 20 how many will make it, one. That's only 5%, would you risk the rest of your career etc for a 5% chance.

They need to take on 20 arrange training that they can fit around education and run week long sessions at half terms and most of the summer. A parent is not going to allow little Johney/Joanne to risk that, and therefore you run the very large risk of excluding the most talented.

I tend to agree, I am paying around £5500 per year just for halls for Junior.
That does not include travell cards or food.

A friend of mine has just said that a swimmer on the same system has got to go to Bath to do his degree and he is fully funded by the UNI + the grant.

Baldric
-31st October 2006, 15:08
A friend of mine has just said that a swimmer on the same system has got to go to Bath to do his degree and he is fully funded by the UNI + the grant.

A quick look at the financial statements of British swimming reveal that they spent in 2005 (before the chancellor stumped up £extra) about 3 times more money than we have now (after the new award)

Like for like comparison is nearly 10 times more funding.

rory
-31st October 2006, 15:09
Another good reason for excluding the under-16s is that they will not be at their physical peak.

I've done some sums, and the average age of an individual Olympic Champion in fencing at the last Games was 26. As follows:
ME 26
MF 23
MS 26
WE 34
WF 30
WS 19

The average age of a World Champion (pover the last 5 years) has been, again, 26. The breakdowns are as follows:
ME 29
MF 24
MS 27
WE 29
WF 29
WS 20


So really we should be looking for fencers who are about 20 years of age right now. That mostly discounts those at school, and also discounts most students too: those not discounted are mostly in final year by my estimation, and are probably not in a peak training phase right now in any case.

So: forget the cadets and juniors for 2012.
Look at the fencers who've just passed the end of the Junior system for our best chances at Gold medals in 2012.

NLSC Sabreur
-31st October 2006, 15:11
I would invite applications, with stringent criteria for commitment

I would look at the records of those who applied

Then I would hold trials, and do comprehensive medical and psychological testing.

Then I would decide on my "first tranche" of funded athletes.

Which is exactly what Graham Watts is proposing. My only reservations are that a)July 2007 would have made more sense, and b) I worry that we are spreading the money too thinly, but thats hard to judge without seeing the numbers.

And although its only £5k per head as living expenses, in total its 2.7m of public money iirc. Speaking as a taxpayer/lottery player I want that money to go to a 100% committed athlete, not to subsidise the pie-in-the-sky aspiration of someone who thinks they can train as a doctor and train to win a gold medal at the same time.

I agree with this post.

As you mention training as a doctor. Though her 2 (or 3?) year career break is a lot less than what is now being demanded.

"Modern Pentathlon heroine Stephanie Cook decided to put her medical career on hold to pursue her Olympic dream.

She ensured her sacrifice paid off in Sydney in 2000 by shooting, fencing, swimming, show-jumping and running her way into the Olympic record books.

"In my final year as a medical student in 1997 I was selected for the national squad and began competing internationally. This was probably one of my hardest years as the demands on my time were so great.""


source- http://www.100percentme.co.uk/100percentme/1115377723.342/1115377794.116/1115818795.027/

pinkelephant
-31st October 2006, 16:48
Would the person who negative rep'd me for this care to say why? Oh, and who they are would be nice too.

Now I've got anonymous positive rep for this one. Thank you, whoever you are!:shrug:

ChubbyHubby
-31st October 2006, 17:16
Another good reason for excluding the under-16s is that they will not be at their physical peak.

I've done some sums, and the average age of an individual Olympic Champion in fencing at the last Games was 26. As follows:
ME 26
MF 23
MS 26
WE 34
WF 30
WS 19

The average age of a World Champion (pover the last 5 years) has been, again, 26. The breakdowns are as follows:
ME 29
MF 24
MS 27
WE 29
WF 29
WS 20


So really we should be looking for fencers who are about 20 years of age right now. That mostly discounts those at school, and also discounts most students too: those not discounted are mostly in final year by my estimation, and are probably not in a peak training phase right now in any case.

So: forget the cadets and juniors for 2012.
Look at the fencers who've just passed the end of the Junior system for our best chances at Gold medals in 2012.

You should also add that those WC and OC were already "good" by the time they were cadet/junior. So it sort of rules out people who are not internationally experienced already.

Baldric
-31st October 2006, 17:42
Another good reason for excluding the under-16s is that they will not be at their physical peak.

I've done some sums, and the average age of an individual Olympic Champion in fencing at the last Games was 26. As follows:
ME 26
MF 23
MS 26
WE 34
WF 30
WS 19

The average age of a World Champion (pover the last 5 years) has been, again, 26. The breakdowns are as follows:
ME 29
MF 24
MS 27
WE 29
WF 29
WS 20


So really we should be looking for fencers who are about 20 years of age right now. That mostly discounts those at school, and also discounts most students too: those not discounted are mostly in final year by my estimation, and are probably not in a peak training phase right now in any case.

So: forget the cadets and juniors for 2012.
Look at the fencers who've just passed the end of the Junior system for our best chances at Gold medals in 2012.

The statistician in me (we all have one) is flinching. :dont: You can't just take a small data set like this, average it, and conclude that future data will conform to the trend. WS WC

Threestain
-31st October 2006, 18:10
And although its only £5k per head as living expenses, in total its 2.7m of public money iirc. Speaking as a taxpayer/lottery player I want that money to go to a 100% committed athlete, not to subsidise the pie-in-the-sky aspiration of someone who thinks they can train as a doctor and train to win a gold medal at the same time.

so that would also discount Marcel Fischer the current Men's Epee Olympic Champion then? (who was 4th last olympics?)

You would also have to target people who have no chance of a real career or delay it significantly in order to take that amount of time out (which is often the most important time to get onto the ladder).

Besides being solely an athelete is a very dull and boring life, because there is only so much training the body can take per day, and the rest is spent doing nowt.

Baldric
-31st October 2006, 19:16
so that would also discount Marcel Fischer the current Men's Epee Olympic Champion then? (who was 4th last olympics?)


I am not saying that there are not exceptional individuals, because there clearly are, but they are exceptions.

Tubby
-31st October 2006, 21:06
You should also add that those WC and OC were already "good" by the time they were cadet/junior. So it sort of rules out people who are not internationally experienced already.But they are already good because they got the support at an early stage.

pinkelephant
-31st October 2006, 21:11
I am not saying that there are not exceptional individuals, because there clearly are, but they are exceptions.

And it is exceptional individuals who win Olympic medals.

ChubbyHubby
-1st November 2006, 08:57
But they are already good because they got the support at an early stage.

I agree. But the impression I get is that this is the "do or die" for 2012? I don't think they are thinking about after 2012. The PD's focus is on medals at 2012 with the opinion that if we don't the money will dry up?

If they want a long term plan they should be building a programme starting with selection of 7-8 year olds with the desirable physical and mental attributes - then stick them in a "fencing school" with part time education/full time training.

But there is probably no money, and not enough kids/parents with the committment.

frog
-1st November 2006, 11:31
I just thought I would pop up to give my opinion about these set requirements and a few of the decisions BFA have made.

Don't you think that maybe BFA or Graham Watts didn't actually have full power over these decisions and that maybe the age limits etc were made a set requirement by say another (very large government funded sporting initiative..) party
This other party may also have set an upper age limit that the BFA argued out??

Also maybe the decision of the amount of Money that is going to be given to each Athlete wasn't down to the BFA (as they obviously have no idea about cost of living in London)

And maybe just maybe it was quite a wise move of the BFA to start the programme in January 07, why would they want to start the programme in July 07 if that meant they would lose all the money in that period by not starting the programme at the beginning of the year. Then you would all be complaining that BFA are wasting money!

This programme is the start of fencing becoming a proper, serious and professional sport in the UK.

The requirements are not going to change but may accommodate a certain amount of compromise, so stop jumping to conclusions. Right now every fencer in the UK has the same chance as everyone else, but it's the one's who are training hard, committed and willing to adapt who will stand out.

pinkelephant
-1st November 2006, 13:04
What happens to those who are already committed, both morally and financially, to another part of the country for the current academic year?

Baldric
-1st November 2006, 13:22
I know its contrary to forum etiquette :whistle: , but if individuals have genuine, relevant questions, wouldn't it be better to ask Graham?

pinkelephant
-1st November 2006, 13:26
I know its contrary to forum etiquette :whistle: , but if individuals have genuine, relevant questions, wouldn't it be better to ask Graham?

They are doing just that.

Boo Boo
-1st November 2006, 13:29
I know its contrary to forum etiquette :whistle: , but if individuals have genuine, relevant questions, wouldn't it be better to ask Graham?

Maybe, but many of these questions are likely to be relevant to a number of people... The one small bit of text printed on this scheme is quite obscure - so asking questions on a public forum might be a good way of shedding some light on the scheme for everyone (assuming the scheme is intended to be transparent and objective).

Boo

Wanabeno1
-2nd November 2006, 18:49
So, if you were the BFA, you would have in mind some names but none or only a few enter because of the reasons previously given, do you:

A. change the rules so that they will join in?

or

B. just carry on with the people you have?

And what do you do if the ones you have don't progress, but the ones that you don't just get better without the scheme?

Foilling Around
-2nd November 2006, 21:24
If they want a long term plan they should be building a programme starting with selection of 7-8 year olds with the desirable physical and mental attributes - then stick them in a "fencing school" with part time education/full time training.

Now where have I heard about this being done before..... now let me see ......... oh yes ..... East Germany.

kingbob
-3rd November 2006, 07:45
Now where have I heard about this being done before..... now let me see ......... oh yes ..... East Germany.

But did it work?

Red
-3rd November 2006, 11:55
Similar things work amazingly in Russia with musicians. Not sure if they do similar things with fencing.

Boo Boo
-3rd November 2006, 11:58
Now where have I heard about this being done before..... now let me see ......... oh yes ..... East Germany.

I believe that they do something fairly similar in Poland (although they may be a LITTLE bit older - 10 or 11 possibly). Your academic and sporting abilities, apparently, are used to determined which school you go to.

Boo

Twohat
-3rd November 2006, 12:21
Thats what I find hard to understand - why are we creating a pure fencing academy in the most expensive part of the country, instead of helping the universities to expand their centres of excellence at the places where the best fencers are most likely to be already - a lot of them are probably doing sport-related degrees anyway - the two should dovetail, not be separated IMHO

Dalesman
-3rd November 2006, 12:26
Interesting point:

I would go with, select the ones you think are going succeed then move on if they are not going to achieve, and then replace them ASAP.

madfencer
-3rd November 2006, 13:10
Are other people on here going to apply just to show they are dedicated to the sport then?

And plus im in full time education till after my A levels in June of next year so I dont actually know if I would and also see page 2....I dont have any of that!...!!

Will someone please tell me why they gave me negative rep for this post. As far as I can tell I didn't do anything wrong and as you didn't give a reason for it please enlighten me....it would be much appreciated. madfencer

Twohat
-3rd November 2006, 13:20
Will someone please tell me why they gave me negative rep for this post. As far as I can tell I didn't do anything wrong and as you didn't give a reason for it please enlighten me....it would be much appreciated. madfencer

I doubt if you'll get a response, but I wouldn't worry too much about it - someone (or more than one?) gives me anonymous negative rep for no apparent reason every so often - here, have a +ve to make up for it . . .
:thumbs_up

Dalesman
-3rd November 2006, 13:52
Here have another good one to make it up!!

Marcos
-3rd November 2006, 14:07
What I would suggest is that the BFA also give these guys tuition for a Diploma in sports coaching or some other associated trade.

The BFA would have a duty of care on these talented athletes in the same way football clubs have with their trainees.

Clubs fund the trainees education so if they don;t make it there is a fall back.

as well as potential Olympians, these guys could also be the high performance fencing coaches of the future.

Dalesman
-3rd November 2006, 14:30
A good idea, but could they not work towards a degree over the 5 years instead of the usual 3 years (if they a capable and want to do it).

That way they have both a degree, be a top fencer and trained coach?

Marcos
-3rd November 2006, 14:51
diploma....degree...whatever suits the athlete best / is interested in

I'd also repeat the suggestion that the BFA set them up with subsidised accommodation in a halls of residence or something

regarding what happens if the "expected" people don;t go for it, if I were the BFA I wouldn;t worry - there is more than 1 road to Rome. This is just one of them. It might well be only one athlete is accepted onto the scheme...they won;t allow people to simply make-up the nuimbers

Tom P
-4th November 2006, 19:16
What I would suggest is that the BFA also give these guys tuition for a Diploma in sports coaching or some other associated trade.




diploma....degree...whatever suits the athlete best / is interested in

I'd also repeat the suggestion that the BFA set them up with subsidised accommodation in a halls of residence or something


Excellent idea. This would not only help the athlete, but also development of the sport - imagine a whole load of young coaches trained for 6 years (or however long) then off out into the wide world to spread the gospel, possibly with Olympic experience behind them.

Fugitive Fencer
-4th November 2006, 19:26
Looking at the big picture,

We should be able to learn from the past...
Looking back to our most successful result in the Olympics for a considerable amount of time we see...

Mr. Richard Kruse 8th at the Athens Olympics, who I believe I am right in saying was either finishing or had just finished a degree relating to engineering at the time of going to the Olympic games.

For this reason I find it highly surprising to see an Olympic pathway system that seems to exclude or at least discourages the prospective fencers (who are currently still at a young age) from going into higher education by demanding that they focus solely on becoming an Olympic fencer, moving to london and giving up on any prospect of a decent career after they have become "past it" at say 30 (around 25 years before retirement age).

The demands this system prides itself on will do nothing but exclude those well rounded individuals who are just as likely to succeed at the highest level from financial and training support, that they desperately require. And simultaneously, create a group of our very own athletes who; once they have become to old to fence at the Pinnacle; will be left sweeping roads or cleaning toilets, idely reminiscing of the days they gave to the sport that sacrificed them and then left them to rot.

Fugitive Fencer
-4th November 2006, 19:39
And if you want to look towards the future...

Prehaps you should tell Mr. Jamie Kember that he should leave OXFORD UNIVERSITY right now if he ever wants to be successful on the international stage.

hmmm...?

I don't think so.

Baldric
-4th November 2006, 20:38
Hi Fugitive Fencer.

I think you are misunderstanding my points (if it was me you were arguing with).

With the greatest respect to Jamie Kember, although he is one of our best, and by our standards is very good indeed, I am sure that he would be the first to admit that he is not a medal contender at present.

Richard is close (but still no cigar in WC or Olympics) and LBW has done very well. However, as I understand it, both the latter are more or less training at present in the way that the proposed Olympic pathway forsees.

However, none on them are regularly medalling at top events. There are occasional good results, but not good enough to put them in the Steve Redgrave or Kelly Holmes category.

I agree that it is risky for the individual. But faint heart never won gold medal.

If we want to create a doctor or an engineer who can look back from a comfortable career, and say "I was at the Olympics you know", thats one thing. But I don't think that UK sport are doling out their millions for that.

They want medals. Graham Watts has been given the money to produce them, and if I were him, I would only want people who were 100% focussed on producing them, not people who were constantly looking for an insurance policy in case they failed.

It's a tough proposal, and not for everyone. I am not sure that I would want to follow the path, nor would I necessarily be happy if Jnr did.

That doesn't mean it won't be effective.

Regards

Baldric.

Foilling Around
-4th November 2006, 21:15
Hi Fugitive Fencer.

I think you are misunderstanding my points (if it was me you were arguing with).

With the greatest respect to Jamie Kember, although he is one of our best, and by our standards is very good indeed, I am sure that he would be the first to admit that he is not a medal contender at present.

Richard is close (but still no cigar in WC or Olympics) and LBW has done very well. However, as I understand it, both the latter are more or less training at present in the way that the proposed Olympic pathway forsees.

However, none on them are regularly medalling at top events. There are occasional good results, but not good enough to put them in the Steve Redgrave or Kelly Holmes category.

I agree that it is risky for the individual. But faint heart never won gold medal.

If we want to create a doctor or an engineer who can look back from a comfortable career, and say "I was at the Olympics you know", thats one thing. But I don't think that UK sport are doling out their millions for that.

They want medals. Graham Watts has been given the money to produce them, and if I were him, I would only want people who were 100% focussed on producing them, not people who were constantly looking for an insurance policy in case they failed.

It's a tough proposal, and not for everyone. I am not sure that I would want to follow the path, nor would I necessarily be happy if Jnr did.

That doesn't mean it won't be effective.

Regards

Baldric.

I hope it does not fail. But if the terms are too harsh then it will not attract the most tallented. The result will be that the select few will be on the Olympic Pathway, training full time, and the tallented part timers will trash them in competition. The worst of both worlds.

FAJ is too young to get involved in this at the moment, and I have not really looked in great detail at the implications.

I do share the worry about the London bias of fencing. It has always been so. London is where, traditionally, fencing coaches have been able to earn a reasonable living from the high concentration of private schools.

But by basing it in the capital we are effectively wasting about 20% of our money on what could be though of a "London Weighting"

Persnally I would say Bristol/Bath, Loughborough and Northumberland are better bets.

Foilling Around
-4th November 2006, 21:43
FAJ is too young to get involved in this at the moment, and I have not really looked in great detail at the implications.

The above sounded far too arrogant! Of course I am not implying that FAJ would automatically be on thhis programme if she were older. She has an awful lot of work to do to stand out from the crowd in this country never mind the rest of the world.

Helen Mulrine
-5th November 2006, 07:34
I would be very against giving-up full time education. It's not impossibile, Diana Bianchedi ITA WF won 2 olympic team medals and at the same time got a degree in medicine, YES it is excepional people who win olympic medals, luckily not all give up education!

MatFink
-5th November 2006, 09:24
...here are few home truths.

1)We already have the ability to offer education alongside high quality training.

Millfield and Brentwood Schools
Bath Uni, Durham, Northumbria, and may if we put some effort in then others like Loughbrough might be persuaded.

Oh wait that would never work, they're not in London. Brentwood is close though.

2)Other minority sports have tried the consilidate our talent strategy and it has massively damaged their results. The only effective way to 'talent pool' is by selecting those who you already know about. or it is easier to demonstrate that you have a sound strategy if you select those who are already doing well rather than those who have the most potential 9who it is harder to identify) The most common effect of this 'talent pooling' is a failiure to achieve goals combined with the absence of a legacy of infrastructure and a second rate group of competitors coming through for the next 4 year cycle.


3) this is the important one. Sports that implode their 'talent' into one place actually get less funding overall. While BFA chase small pots of money in the sport specific funding pots it is putting two fingers up to the regional bodies who all have large pots intra regional for use developing talented athletes across all sports.

Put simply I am mr regional funding chair for talented athlete development with upwards of 4 million to spend on developing talent (allow that pro sports are largely self funding in this respect therefore money is best spent on 'amateur' sport) Sport A has regional centre for excellence in its sport and is developing grass roots as well as world class talent in an integrated system that includes national body as well as region, unis, and schools. Sport B has harvested all its best people to London and there is no integrated infrastructure in region, worse there is an implication that any athletes not in london will not be considered olympic prospects therefore not worth funding. Hmm who do I give my money to.

The course of action the BFA has taken with negatively effect funding opportunities all across the country. If it hasn't already done so. The Truro fencing centre is looking to tap into the legacy of the olympics to generate funding. This simply will not happen if BFA remove the top fencers to london and effectively announce to potential funding bodies that investment anywhere else is a waste of their money.


It is time our sport caught up with the rest of the world. Decisions are being made that appear to benefit the few at the cost to the many and ultimately to all.

4) (pulling rank here I'm afraid) I am probably the only person in our sport with a post grad qualification in sports development so I actually do know what I am talking about.

5) Asking people to give up full time education is crazy 6 years out, and is against the principles of many other funding streams we really on like TASS

The writing is on the wall our sport will live or die in this country depending on the decisions we make now.

Can interested parties PM me on this with their email or other contact address. For those who are wondering yes I am up to something, and no I won't tell you unless it is constructive to do so.

I could have gone on for about 30 pages on this issue, it is abhorent and mis-guided. It may just be thoughtless, but isn't that as bad.

Fugitive Fencer
-5th November 2006, 10:04
Firstly hope i didn't cause offence Baldric. I wasn't arguing with you directly, more with the ideas behind the system. I appreciate your distinction between attending and winning olympic games but disagree with your idea that wanting higher education is more an insurance policy than a necessity in today's grade driven society.



With the greatest respect to Jamie Kember...I am sure that he would be the first to admit that he is not a medal contender at present.
Baldric.

I ask you then, who would you ideally like to put on this pathway system, if not the best male foil fencer we have of the correct age? I'm afraid that unless you have the gift of vision into the future there is now way you can predict how good a fencer Mr. Kember or anyone will be in 2012. The fact is that he has spent many years of his life committed to fencing and there is no evidence to suggest that just because he goes to univeersity or has other interests in life that he cannot and will not succeed over the next 6 years and possibly win an olympic gold medal.

Oh and for one of your examples, your argument unfortunatly is proven flawed...
Taken from Kelly Holmes' biography
"Kelly turned her back on athletics at 18, when she joined the army. She rose to the rank of sergeant, also becoming British Army judo champion."

In conclusion then, those who will succeed will always succeed in whatever they do. They will be driven, but driven to do what they want and not necessarily 100% into the sport at which you would have them devote their whole life to (this in fact would probably weaken their effectiveness).

I firmly believe creating a string of clauses that basically say a fencer cannot go into higher education and must devote thier whole life to the sport will do nothing but alienate those few talented people that WILL succeed and could be helped by this pathway scheme.

JulianRose
-5th November 2006, 10:37
Firstly hope i didn't cause offence Baldric. I wasn't arguing with you directly, more with the ideas behind the system. I appreciate your distinction between attending and winning olympic games but disagree with your idea that wanting higher education is more an insurance policy than a necessity in today's grade driven society.



I ask you then, who would you ideally like to put on this pathway system, if not the best male foil fencer we have of the correct age? I'm afraid that unless you have the gift of vision into the future there is now way you can predict how good a fencer Mr. Kember or anyone will be in 2012. The fact is that he has spent many years of his life committed to fencing and there is no evidence to suggest that just because he goes to univeersity or has other interests in life that he cannot and will not succeed over the next 6 years and possibly win an olympic gold medal.

Oh and for one of your examples, your argument unfortunatly is proven flawed...
Taken from Kelly Holmes' biography
"Kelly turned her back on athletics at 18, when she joined the army. She rose to the rank of sergeant, also becoming British Army judo champion."

In conclusion then, those who will succeed will always succeed in whatever they do. They will be driven, but driven to do what they want and not necessarily 100% into the sport at which you would have them devote their whole life to (this in fact would probably weaken their effectiveness).

I firmly believe creating a string of clauses that basically say a fencer cannot go into higher education and must devote thier whole life to the sport will do nothing but alienate those few talented people that WILL succeed and could be helped by this pathway scheme.


Just a couple of points on this answering a couple of things.

1. any chance that people could do PART-TIME study (obviously not in some people's eyes, but a realistic option if you actually read the UK sport website about the Olympic Pathway)

2. on the regional structure. isn't that the job of England Fencing, Scottish Fencing, etc. i thought that the BFA was meant to look after the Great Britain national team and England Fencing were meant to be getting more clubs, more coaches, more fencers, and putting in place a regional structure to help these new clubs, coaches, and fencers to become part of the national set-up.

i could be completely wrong but i thought this was one of the main reasons for setting up England fencing and the other national bodies. to give the BRITISH Fencing Association more time to look after BRITISH fencing.

Andy
-5th November 2006, 15:42
I can't see a huge problem with continuing education, I mean when I was at Uni, I did a high number of contact hours and had further Reading as well, and still had time to train very seriously (not in fencing but another sport) If you are doing a 10 hour a week contact time course, and 10 hours a week reading - surely you can fit in the 5 - 2hour training sessions, and 2 or 3 hour long lessons, and a few hours of sparing. This in my book still doesn't add up to a 40 hour week, so there should be plenty of time to recuperate and get prepared for comps. There are plenty of fencers out there who work 37 hours fence 6 or 9 hours, train 4 hours and still have time to 'do life'

It's not time that you need it's organization, and if these young fencers don't yet have the organization skills to achieve this, then either they shouldn't be at UNI or the program should enable them to achieve this...


Just my thoughts,

A.

Foilling Around
-5th November 2006, 15:53
Just a couple of points on this answering a couple of things.

1. any chance that people could do PART-TIME study (obviously not in some people's eyes, but a realistic option if you actually read the UK sport website about the Olympic Pathway)

2. on the regional structure. isn't that the job of England Fencing, Scottish Fencing, etc. i thought that the BFA was meant to look after the Great Britain national team and England Fencing were meant to be getting more clubs, more coaches, more fencers, and putting in place a regional structure to help these new clubs, coaches, and fencers to become part of the national set-up.

i could be completely wrong but i thought this was one of the main reasons for setting up England fencing and the other national bodies. to give the BRITISH Fencing Association more time to look after BRITISH fencing.

1) UK Sport site has a big section on "Performance Lifestyles". Recognising that Sport is the main thing in an elite athlete's life, but a cannot be the only thing. Managing your lifestyle is most important.

2) You are partly right. Home countries have responsibility for grass roots fencing. BFA is responsible for Elite fencing. There is a grey area about where "elite " begins. That does not mean however that we have to put all our eggs in one basket. Elite training and fencing can, and in my opinion should, be regionally devolved. That does not mean necessarily to every region but it does mean having a number of centres where fencers can train and be supported to the necessary standard.

ChubbyHubby
-5th November 2006, 17:30
Mr. Richard Kruse 8th at the Athens Olympics, who I believe I am right in saying was either finishing or had just finished a degree relating to engineering at the time of going to the Olympic games.

One could argue he did well in spite of the "system" rather than because of it. Would have won that fight if he had the time to train more in the years he was at Uni? who knows?


For this reason I find it highly surprising to see an Olympic pathway system that seems to exclude or at least discourages the prospective fencers (who are currently still at a young age) from going into higher education by demanding that they focus solely on becoming an Olympic fencer, moving to london and giving up on any prospect of a decent career after they have become "past it" at say 30 (around 25 years before retirement age).
It's no secret that the PD's objective is to medal at 2012, and at the moment nothing else matters. Plans beyond that are not a priority. It's about achiveing that at whatever cost.

I am not exactly what you'd call a "fan" of all the PD's policies, but if that's the objective, then personally I'd agree with the approach.

It's not about being inclusive or preparing the way for future Olympians (for example other approaches it as suggested by various other posts), but if you have £X and Y amount of time (with 2012 as the "delivery" date), you can't really be thinning avialable resources by looking beyond 2012 (e.g. by including younger fencers that may not peak until after 2012).



The demands this system prides itself on will do nothing but exclude those well rounded individuals who are just as likely to succeed at the highest level from financial and training support....

And you don't think they don't already have a list of people in mind? and that the trials is a political stunt? But that's just the cynic in me thinking!

Fugitive Fencer
-5th November 2006, 20:19
ch.
you can't really be thinning avialable resources by looking beyond 2012 (e.g. by including younger fencers that may not peak until after 2012).

I agree with you but Just thought i'd come back to say that the younger fencers i was referring to were the ones that were around 16-18 now. They're the ones who will peak at the 2012 olympics. and it is these fencers that the system will most disadvantage by not allowing higher education.

Heres a thought chubby. The fencers they may or may not have 'selected', do you not think it likely they might refuse being on this pathway scheme if it has the constraints that it does. I find that very likely, hence my objection to restraints that i see as needless.

ChubbyHubby
-5th November 2006, 20:31
it is these fencers that the system will most disadvantage by not allowing higher education.

They can always be mature students? Yes, they will be starting their careers a few years later, but that's a small compromise is it not to have the chance to pursue their sporting goals?

Wanabeno1
-5th November 2006, 21:17
They can always be mature students? Yes, they will be starting their careers a few years later, but that's a small compromise is it not to have the chance to pursue their sporting goals?

So you are suggesting 6 year for pathway plus 3/4 year degree that makes them 26/27 year old which could make it difficult for them getting a job. Go on you are going to suggest that been a fencer on pathway is going to make you a good job prospect. Remember the chance of making are very slim (can't remember who said that, many post back).

You have think of their future as well pathway (with pathway weighted more) do you want be the one saying ah well you tried never mind, now we don't want to know you it's 2013!!!

Sorry to sound cynical but it’s their future we are messing with!!

ChubbyHubby
-5th November 2006, 22:32
So you are suggesting 6 year for pathway plus 3/4 year degree that makes them 26/27 year old which could make it difficult for them getting a job.

Sorry, you are talking rubbish there. Why would them being 26/27 years old make it difficult for them to get a job?

rory
-5th November 2006, 22:50
Sorry to sound cynical but it’s their future we are messing with!!


No, it isn't.
Everyone chooses their own path through life: if some people choose to prioritise fencing above work, that's their choice.

There is no reason on earth that a person who completes their degree at 26 wouldn't get a job: employers are far more interested in life experience and the ability to demonstrate dedication than what age you graduated at!

Assuming 2 candidates for a job, one who's 22, went straight from school to Uni like so many other kids, and one candidate who dedicated 6 years of their life to the pursuit of excellence with the full knowledge that they might not make the cut, who's going to get hired?

Baldric
-5th November 2006, 23:07
In answer to a number of posts....



Firstly hope i didn't cause offence Baldric.


No, of course not. The whole point of the forum is to discuss differing points of view. If I took offence every time someone disagreed with me, I would have left years ago! :whistle: :grin:




I can't see a huge problem with continuing education, I mean when I was at Uni, I did a high number of contact hours and had further Reading as well, and still had time to train very seriously




We already have the ability to offer education alongside high quality training.


I don't have a problem with combining some continued education with training. The point I take issue with is the idea that somehow Olympic success can be a subsidiary goal - something to be done in one's spare time, while studying medicine, law or whatever.

I stand by the view that if you start from the perspective of "what am I going to do when my Olympic dream crashes and burns?" then the one thing you can pretty much guarantee is that it will!



Looking at the big picture,

We should be able to learn from the past...
Looking back to our most successful result in the Olympics for a considerable amount of time we see...


The one lesson that I would take from the past, is that whatever it was we did - it didn't work. It produced a series of "might have beens" and "didn't he/she do well to make the L8/L16/L32....." or similar. No offence to those concerned. I would be fascinated to hear from some of them, what they think would have enhanced their chances.

I have to agree that the whole thing seems far too London-centric. If there was a massive pool of resources there, I could understand it more, but unless I am missing something, it just seems a recipe for making sure that a limited amount of money goes less far than it might.

It would be interesting to see BF's rationale. We might all be missing something that they have seen - after all, KS and GW are no fools, and they have also presumably had access to outside expertise from UK Sport, the BOA etc as well as from within the sport.

One thing I am sure of. Its better to execute a coherent plan, even if its less than perfect, than to fanny about. Proper execution of an 80% good plan is better by far than waffling about trying to create a 100% good plan (no such thing) and then not having the time to execute it.

Best of luck to all involved.

Wanabeno1
-6th November 2006, 14:13
Sorry, you are talking rubbish there. Why would them being 26/27 years old make it difficult for them to get a job?

How about anyone appling for the job would be 6 year younger or have more experience. If they went great but if they didn't they could find it difficult.

It needs to be thought through, I still say that a Uni/college worth it's salt would support them doing any degree/course over a longer period and that way everyone wins (pun intended).

JulianRose
-6th November 2006, 14:26
How about anyone appling for the job would be 6 year younger or have more experience. If they went great but if they didn't they could find it difficult.

It needs to be thought through, I still say that a Uni/college worth it's salt would support them doing any degree/course over a longer period and that way everyone wins (pun intended).

that is ageism and that company could now be sued if it was the only reason for not giving them the job.

ChubbyHubby
-6th November 2006, 14:29
How about anyone appling for the job would be 6 year younger or have more experience. If they went great but if they didn't they could find it difficult.

"6 years younger" would be irrelevant as one would be looking at experience.

Yes, they would have less work experience than another 26yr old who spent the past 6 years working rather than fencing. But then the 26yr old who didn't do the fencing would be 4-5 years into their careers whereas the fencer is just starting theirs.

So yes, they wouldn't be as high up the career ladder as the non fencer at 26yrs.

But it doesn't make it anymore difficult for the fencer to get the same graduate trainee job that the 22yr old non fencer would be going for. In fact being more mature will help him.

Being "6 years behind" in their careers would then be a lifestyle choice the fencer has to make. But it doesn't mean they are disadvantaged or "cleaning toilets" when they are done with fencing.



It needs to be thought through, I still say that a Uni/college worth it's salt would support them doing any degree/course over a longer period and that way everyone wins (pun intended).
Again, you are talking about "ideally" how it should work, but with this particular programme they are starting, the resources are limited to what they have at the moment.

To support them over a longer period would require either more cash or spread what limited cash they have more thinnly which would be more "ideal" but would acheive less results.

It's a "pathway" to get medals, not to produce "well rounded" individuals.

ChubbyHubby
-6th November 2006, 17:13
Answers from the PD:
http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=446

Tubby
-6th November 2006, 19:51
How is it that the Americans can field an Olympic swimming squad full of under graduates from different universities typically ivy league, ditto some of the Athens fencing team? Should I mention athletics here or will that weaken my argument :tongue: ?

I know their system is different to ours. Our answer, give up the education because if you're really serious you'll fit yourself around the coach. Yeah, right.

ChubbyHubby
-6th November 2006, 20:03
How is it that the Americans can field an Olympic swimming squad full of under graduates from different universities typically ivy league, ditto some of the Athens fencing team? Should I mention athletics here or will that weaken my argument :tongue: ?
.
Cash?:whistle:

Ignition
-7th November 2006, 06:00
How is it that the Americans can field an Olympic swimming squad full of under graduates from different universities typically ivy league, ditto some of the Athens fencing team? Should I mention athletics here or will that weaken my argument :tongue: ?

Sports is a far more professional thing at university level in the US, extensive television coverage, sponsorship, etc, and the university system there allows for full time training and a degree at the end of it.

Look at the finances of an ivy league university and compare them to those of a UK university - Harvard has a higher income than every UK university combined. ;)

rory
-7th November 2006, 09:13
Harvard is the top-earning school in the world, so that's not entirely surprising :)

(Trivia: the school with the second highest income in the world in the world is a primary school in Waikiki, Hawai'i.... props to anyone who can tell me why :) )

madfencer
-7th November 2006, 09:19
(Trivia: the school with the second highest income in the world in the world is a primary school in Waikiki, Hawai'i.... props to anyone who can tell me why :) )

it's a surf school? :whistle:

Boo Boo
-7th November 2006, 09:52
(Trivia: the school with the second highest income in the world in the world is a primary school in Waikiki, Hawai'i.... props to anyone who can tell me why :) )

http://www.ksbe.edu/pauahi/bio.php ?

angelo
-7th November 2006, 10:17
It's not just money. It's high quality organisation, with recruitment of high quality coaches, well-developed (and increasingly popular) fencing clubs in schools and universities, highly organised national sub-rankings, rankings and tournament circuits, merit rewards for top coaches, head hunting of top coaches from Europe, head hunting of top young fencers from Europe to study in US universities, a large critical mass of keen young fencers, energetic fund-raising to build well-equipped fencing salles etc. etc. Altogether a professional and imaginative approach now paying off in terms of medal success.

Dalesman
-7th November 2006, 11:58
http://www.ksbe.edu/pauahi/bio.php ?


If that's true, give yourself loads of browny point (smarty pants)!!!!

Boo Boo
-7th November 2006, 12:10
If that's true, give yourself loads of browny point (smarty pants)!!!!

Not really, I just serached on Google... :eek: :whistle:

Boo
(not that clever really...)

rory
-7th November 2006, 12:32
That's the one :)

Dalesman
-7th November 2006, 13:54
Not really, I just serached on Google... :eek: :whistle:

Boo
(not that clever really...)

And theres me thinking you had gone through every shelf at the British Libary in your lunch time.

Shame on me!!

You still get the browny points though!!

Tubby
-8th November 2006, 00:09
It's not just money. It's high quality organisation, with recruitment of high quality coaches, well-developed (and increasingly popular) fencing clubs in schools and universities, highly organised national sub-rankings, rankings and tournament circuits, merit rewards for top coaches, head hunting of top coaches from Europe, head hunting of top young fencers from Europe to study in US universities, a large critical mass of keen young fencers, energetic fund-raising to build well-equipped fencing salles etc. etc. Altogether a professional and imaginative approach now paying off in terms of medal success.Yep. Have you seen the effort they make at high school level? I look over the pond, I look at us and I think, Beagle mars mission.

sabregran
-8th November 2006, 08:36
Is it just co-incidence that the Olympic Pathway selections in London are exactly the same 3 days as the BUSA championships in Nottingham?

Red
-8th November 2006, 10:41
Hmmm..... Might have a chance at the BUSA individuals after all....

angelo
-12th November 2006, 18:01
Much depends on the weapons coaches BF will hire for the next 6 years, presumably from USA, Germany or Russia (though BF shouldn't ignore China). The best coaches in these countries are already hired of course, but the "second-strings" would be extremely valuable to fencers here, although quite expensive. Interesting to see who they choose.

madfencer
-13th November 2006, 11:12
One thing thats puzzling me here....

If theres the BFA pathway what will happem about Tigger's TFC GOLD and Northumbria's centre of excellence which are both planned to be built to train athletes for 2012? If the BFA pathway will be based in London I dont think fencers can be in Northumbria, Truro and London at the same time! :dizzy:

Just a thought, but i've probably missed something and am just being stupid :rolleyes:

Wanabeno1
-13th November 2006, 15:02
One thing thats puzzling me here....

If theres the BFA pathway what will happem about Tigger's TFC GOLD and Northumbria's centre of excellence which are both planned to be built to train athletes for 2012? If the BFA pathway will be based in London I dont think fencers can be in Northumbria, Truro and London at the same time! :dizzy:

Just a thought, but i've probably missed something and am just being stupid :rolleyes:

Good point, is it that organised!!

How about calling every where LONDON to get round that problem!

Baldric
-13th November 2006, 15:16
One thing thats puzzling me here....

If theres the BFA pathway what will happem about Tigger's TFC GOLD and Northumbria's centre of excellence which are both planned to be built to train athletes for 2012? If the BFA pathway will be based in London I dont think fencers can be in Northumbria, Truro and London at the same time! :dizzy:

Just a thought, but i've probably missed something and am just being stupid :rolleyes:

I don't know about Northumbria, but TFC Gold is still in the planning stage. Even if they raise the first tranche of money, as I understand it, thats just for architects plans etc - actual building is a long way off yet. Even if things go well, it is likely to be a couple of years to completion, probably more.

Tigger & Co are wisely banging the 2012 drum for its fundraising potential....

3 Card Trick
-13th November 2006, 16:36
Northumbria are supporting fencers now. It is already in place and started.

madfencer
-14th November 2006, 09:07
Northumbria are supporting fencers now. It is already in place and started.

Wow - that IS good! :)

madfencer
-14th November 2006, 15:10
it's a surf school? :whistle:

:eek: erm...why did someone -ive rep me for this. Am I not allowed to crack a joke on here anymore? Im sorry if it wasnt funny enough for you.

It cant have offended anyone surely :dizzy:

Sorry anyway!

madfencer

Rhi
-14th November 2006, 16:19
hey everyone!
When I first read the stuff about the Olympic Pathway scheme i already decided there was no way i was going to apply. I can't see how this scheme is going to help any fencers who are financially independant.

Everyone has to look long term, you can't say someone is not committed to their sport if they choose to have an education alongside training. Many athletes have managed to train and study at high levels so i dont see why that option should be unavailable.

The terms and condtions have been written and are quite clear. If you can't meet them then you can't get funding to further your sporting potential. To me and others this may mean an end to fencing careers.

I can only see people applying who have additional financial support from family or have no long term chosen career at present. (Unless of course exceptions will be made for individuals and is that fair?.)

Foilling Around
-14th November 2006, 18:44
hey everyone!
When I first read the stuff about the Olympic Pathway scheme i already decided there was no way i was going to apply. I can't see how this scheme is going to help any fencers who are financially independant.

Everyone has to look long term, you can't say someone is not committed to their sport if they choose to have an education alongside training. Many athletes have managed to train and study at high levels so i dont see why that option should be unavailable.

The terms and condtions have been written and are quite clear. If you can't meet them then you can't get funding to further your sporting potential. To me and others this may mean an end to fencing careers.

I can only see people applying who have additional financial support from family or have no long term chosen career at present. (Unless of course exceptions will be made for individuals and is that fair?.)

Thank you for your contribution Rhi. It is one thing for the older generation like me saying that this scheme is ill concieved, but it is quite another to hear from the generation and ability level at which it is aimed.

I know when I showed it to FAJ (who I know keeps in touch with your sis) her reaction was one of horror (even if she is a bit young for the age at which it is aimed). Committing yourself to a six year unknown programme with unknown coaches and responsibilities at 2 months notice is crazy.

The message it is sending out to fencers and regional funding organisations is awful. Basically it says unless you are prepared to do a Dick Whittington and uproot yourself and travel to the gold paved streets of London then we don't really care about you. Well it is pantomine season!

Whatever the good intentions and the restrictions placed by UKSport there seems to be no integration with existing regional development structure.

It looks from the outside to be a creaming off of the top fencers to the most expensive part of the country with bribery and threats.

I know this is the forum and we are just looked on as a moaning shop. But I hope I am doing my fair share to promote the future of British fencing (both by breeding tham and helping to organise them) and that gives me some right to have my say.

I really do hope thet it works if it goes ahead and that the BFA can wave medals in my face in 2012 and say "See! we were right." But I am very doubtful.

Rant over.

Can we have more contributions from the younger generation either here or directly to the BFA with their views.

alien abductee
-14th November 2006, 18:47
I've spoken to a few people who had thought about applying and the general feeling seems to be:

1. Its not enough money unless you're living with parents (in London) who are willing to support you financially on top of that.

2. There's not enough details about the programme to know whether or not you want to apply ("Sign here and later we'll tell you've signed up for ")

3. Despite the claims to the contrary, it seems very unlikely that there will be anything like an even spread among the weapons. If you're a decent men's foilist or women's sabreur, you've got every chance of being accepted. Bar the odd exception, if you're a female foilist or epeeist, don't hold your breath.

4. Part time work with the level of flexibilty required by the programme doesn't exist for fencers (unless you work for the Construction Industry Council) and its fanciful to suggest that it does.

5. Would you sign up to work with a National Squad coach every day if you didn't know who it was? Me neither.

Boo Boo
-14th November 2006, 19:23
But I hope I am doing my fair share to promote the future of British fencing (both by breeding tham and helping to organise them) and that gives me some right to have my say.

Is this breeding thing a continuing thing? Is the lovely Mrs Foilling Around looked in a closet somwhere churning out more offspring or something :eek:

Boo

Rhi
-14th November 2006, 19:25
Many of our younger top fencers are at oxford and cambridge university,they have worked very hard all their school education to get there and are now being asked to comprimise it and to make that decision in a couple of months. Getting a second chance when your sporting career is over is not really an option for these people or those studying on many courses at other universities. Obviously this is not only true for oxbridge students but for many people, i was just giving this example as i can think of 5 people that could be candidates for the programme.

I am unsure as to whether the programme will work and only time will tell (gosh i sound like my mother, hee hee) but im more concerned at the elitism this programme is promoting. With all due respect to those at oxbridge, many of them have financial family support which aids their fencing and so the financial part to the pathway program is probably not that important for them, however there are some fencers with little to no financial support from family and these are the fencers that are going to be pushed out the door. Does it seem right to lose the potential for 2012, because fencers are unable to make the commitment to 'pathway' due to financial implications, knowing there is never any chance of funding?

Boo Boo
-14th November 2006, 19:27
4. Part time work with the level of flexibilty required by the programme doesn't exist for fencers (unless you work for the Construction Industry Council) and its fanciful to suggest that it does.

Maybe the CIC is hiring...?

Would a fencer with a degree in Architecture, a MSc in Computer Science and several years experience of Systems Engineering and Project Management be any use... :whistle:

Boo

alien abductee
-14th November 2006, 19:42
Maybe the CIC is hiring...?

Would a fencer with a degree in Architecture, a MSc in Computer Science and several years experience of Systems Engineering and Project Management be any use... :whistle:

Boo

Apply for APA, mention to GW that you're looking for a really flexible part-time job and see what reply you get...

I did once have a look the CIC website and almost the entire staff were people I knew. Weird, huh??!!

Boo Boo
-14th November 2006, 20:03
Apply for APA, mention to GW that you're looking for a really flexible part-time job and see what reply you get...

If I would consider moving to London, then I could be tempted... although somehow I am sure that I would be turned down on all counts ;)


I did once have a look the CIC website and almost the entire staff were people I knew. Weird, huh??!!

It's a small world... :cool:

Boo

Tubby
-14th November 2006, 22:41
Dare I say, hawk your wares to an ivy league uni for a scholarship, live in the US for 4 years (cheaper than London) get an education (some is better than none), be a hit with your british accent, get a green card, get sponsored for citizenship, go into the US programme.... fence in the olympics....medal...

JulianRose
-14th November 2006, 23:00
Can we have more contributions from the younger generation either here or directly to the BFA with their views.

...rantono

as one of these here are my thoughts.

i am very much in favour of the scheme. it is a fantastic oppourtunity for our best fencers to all come together and put in serious training together, which is how all the top nations have achieved success now and in the past, get the best people fencing each other lots...

has anyone other than me had a look at the UK sport website and actually looked at the programme that we are being signed up to! it is absolutely fantastic. they are saying that they will cover all the athletes fencing costs every year, which just to make it abudantly clear means training costs, travel costs, equipment costs, entry fees, sports science costs, the works. they are then going to give each athlete at least £5,000 which is designed to replace the earnings they would have had if they were not required to do a part time job instead of a full time one. the expectation is that athletes will need to do a part time job in order to suppliment their income but with no fencing costs the only things that they have to pay for are rent, food, and social. the social shouldn't be too large given that they are being athletes! there is to be organised training with fitness testing, and organising training schedules to suit each individual athlete.

the average spend on an athlete on this scheme is £45,000 per annum, admitedly across all sports, but still that is huge!

...rantono

this is all from the UK Sport website http://www.uksport.gov.uk/pages/world_class_pathway/

and whilst the scheme is call world class pathway, the similarities in description of the type of funding received and its structure is too similar to be coincidence that this is not the Olympic pathway as well!

disclaimer: obviously i am not GW and have not spoken to him so this could all be heresay and blarney, but do read the information!!!

gbm
-14th November 2006, 23:39
For years everyone moans about the lack of professionalism in fencing, and how fencers haven't got the opportunity to compete on the world level.
I'm sure I remember a thread somewhere on here not that long ago about how people would support professional athletes... I think the consensus was that you wouldn't just give them X amount of money, you would give them enough to live on but pay for everything else. And of course, keep hold of the purse strings so if the fencers didn't perform, you could drop them...

Then UK sport drops this opportunity in the top fencers laps and what does everybody (on the forum) do? Whine about it. What would you give these fencers, £25k a year and a company car? :dont:

You've got to love the forum :nanananan :rolling:

rory
-16th November 2006, 09:03
Perhaps if your posts were coherent, sensible and on-topic you might not get so much negative rep.

<Start rant>
I suspect that one of the reasons we've lost some high-profile contributors to the forum (Graham Watts, Tech etc) is that there's such a high level of random posting, incomprehensible writing, uninformed nonsense and general tripe that it makes us all look like losers: every forum user gets tarred with the same brush.

There's a definite perception in the fencing community that Forum users are geeks, moaners and don't know anything about real fencing - improving the level of discourse might change that.

Think before you post, people.

Anyway - back to topic:
As we've seen, there are a number of high profile fencers who simply aren't interested in the BFA Olympic Pathway programme, for a variety of reasons.

Does this impact their chances of selection?
If you choose not to be on the program, will you be discriminated against when selection time comes round, regardless of results?

JulianRose
-16th November 2006, 09:08
Does this impact their chances of selection?
If you choose not to be on the program, will you be discriminated against when selection time comes round, regardless of results?

according to the info graham watts put out no, it has no bearing on selection, (but this may not be true once we actually arrive at that point!)

(in brackets is just me being mischievous!)

JulianRose
-16th November 2006, 09:14
also just for information the email address for sending applications to on the form does not exist! you have to send it to the one listed on the BFA website for Noshenn Khan.

brilliant organisation there!

alien abductee
-16th November 2006, 09:20
As we've seen, there are a number of high profile fencers who simply aren't interested in the BFA Olympic Pathway programme, for a variety of reasons.

Does this impact their chances of selection?
If you choose not to be on the program, will you be discriminated against when selection time comes round, regardless of results?

From the FAQs on the BF website:
"If I don’t get onto the programme will that mean I have no chance of qualifying for the British team?
No. Obviously, it is anticipated that the intensity of the programme will maximise opportunities for those selected fencers on the programme. Fencers other than those who receive an APA will also, however, be involved in the programme: for example, if only one fencer qualifies to be on the programme in any particular weapon, it is obviously impossible for them to train on their own. So even though there can only be a maximum of 19 fencers funded with an APA, other sparring and competition partners will be involved in the programme and will receive some funding to support their fencing. We certainly intend to keep teams at each weapon competing through the 2007/8 season. Selection to the individual events will continue to be made on the basis of a selection scheme approved by the Board and International Committee. Any fencers who achieve the appropriate selection standard will be eligible for selection."

That's what it says, so it must be true...(although it might be worth pointing out how few people actually achieved the qualifying standard for the Worlds and yet full teams were sent for MF and WS, 2 fencers in ME and MS, none for the out of favour WE and WF)

*Elle*
-16th November 2006, 15:41
All i can say is we have moaned that the BFA have not done anything in terms of financial help... now that they have... there is still moaning! Its a little like the weather, one moment its cold everyone prays for the sun to shine, when it does its too hot!

Its clear with this pathway, you have to be committed. Yes living in London will be expensive and if you are financially dependent you will struggle. I dont see UKSport or BFA saying now you cant work part-time to help yourself with money. They might even help out with finding a pt-job. This is all hypothetical! As for U16s, well clearly the BFA have given a simple message they do not want kids to be uneducated! GCSE's a-levels and degrees are hard work and you need to commit to exams etc..... its hard to keep ontop of fencing, life, school/uni, job its easier when there is a few less things in the equation! Dont i know it!

Either way, London has been given a chance to host the Olympic Games which is a great honour! British Fencing want their fencers be able to partake in this honour and bag some gold!

:):):):):):):):)

*Elle*

angelo
-16th November 2006, 19:05
Dare I say, hawk your wares to an ivy league uni for a scholarship, live in the US for 4 years (cheaper than London) get an education (some is better than none), be a hit with your british accent, get a green card, get sponsored for citizenship, go into the US programme.... fence in the olympics....medal...

Yes it is odd that the British pathway scheme seeems to disriminate against the brightest and the best by barring talented fencers who intend to go on to full-time higher education. Why not follow a model more like the USA, establish and encourage the best coaches in British high schools and universities, make one or two British universities centres of fencing excellence, fund scholarships to the best fencing universities, reward university coaches on their competitive achievements, appoint two or three (foreign ?) master coaches to supervise the pathway ? By the way, is there really a well-equipped, full-time fencing centre in London (not counting the ubiquitous church halls, school gyms etc.) to handle the pathway scheme ?

PM1
-16th November 2006, 19:19
3 words - University of Northumbria

And whilst certain people no longer post on this forum (or seldom), many cruise.

;)

Boo Boo
-16th November 2006, 19:38
Yes it is odd that the British pathway scheme seeems to disriminate against the brightest and the best by barring talented fencers who intend to go on to full-time higher education. Why not follow a model more like the USA, establish and encourage the best coaches in British high schools and universities, make one or two British universities centres of fencing excellence, fund scholarships to the best fencing universities, reward university coaches on their competitive achievements, appoint two or three (foreign ?) master coaches to supervise the pathway ?

My guess is because that would take too long to set up? They want and they want it 6 months ago... The US scheme seems to work very well (although it is a bit dispersed in some ways), but it must have taken YEARS to get to the stage it is at now.


By the way, is there really a well-equipped, full-time fencing centre in London (not counting the ubiquitous church halls, school gyms etc.) to handle the pathway scheme ?

Yes, well sort of.

There is a full-time dedicated facility in London. It has 4 permanent electric pistes (although they are all a little too short), access to another room for lessons/training, access to a gym, access to a sauna and changing rooms etc. It is good to have, although quite tight for space (depends how well they schedule who uses it when I suppose).

Boo

Wanabeno1
-16th November 2006, 20:42
Yes it is odd that the British pathway scheme seeems to disriminate against the brightest and the best by barring talented fencers who intend to go on to full-time higher education. Why not follow a model more like the USA, establish and encourage the best coaches in British high schools and universities, make one or two British universities centres of fencing excellence, fund scholarships to the best fencing universities, reward university coaches on their competitive achievements, appoint two or three (foreign ?) master coaches to supervise the pathway ? By the way, is there really a well-equipped, full-time fencing centre in London (not counting the ubiquitous church halls, school gyms etc.) to handle the pathway scheme ?


If you don't do something like this you are going to lose some of the best and brightest people, althought they might will succeed despite the system not because of it.

D'Artignan
-16th November 2006, 23:40
Oh ffs, give the system a chance before knocking it. The board have done wonders in getting this funding, and obviously see this as the best chance we have of medalling (thought there may have been some persuasion from other bodies) in 2012. Does anyone know how much work these people have put into this? And for what? Us to moan about things instead of looking on the bright side and aiming high?

[/rant]

TBennett
-17th November 2006, 07:12
.
.
Well. Deadline is only in four hours so all those indecisive people reading peoples views on here maybe should start filling out the form......;)

Wanabeno1
-17th November 2006, 07:57
Oh ffs, give the system a chance before knocking it. The board have done wonders in getting this funding, and obviously see this as the best chance we have of medalling (thought there may have been some persuasion from other bodies) in 2012. Does anyone know how much work these people have put into this? And for what? Us to moan about things instead of looking on the bright side and aiming high?

[/rant]

I hope it really works, but if don't air our views or concerns lots of people may not thing of the problems eg thinking out side the box (forum).

Good luck to everyone trying for it!

pigeonmeister
-17th November 2006, 09:36
3 words - University of Northumbria ;)

3 more words...

Lost to Birmingham!

(sorry couldn't resist, and they are back for revenge next week!!!!)

PM1
-17th November 2006, 18:01
3 more words...

Lost to Birmingham!

(sorry couldn't resist, and they are back for revenge next week!!!!)

(and boy, had you better watch out !!!:nanananan )

Keith.A.Smith
-17th November 2006, 20:49
Dear All,

We have had about 50 applicants, so not too bad.

Uk Sport make the rules and Graham Watts and I did the work negotiating the money and a small band of talented fencers did the hardest bit, namely achieving great international results.

I hope we will select fencers with talent, determination and a positive attitude as withouit these they will not succeed.

Always good to read all the postings but still waiting for the volunteers to actually offer to help.

Good night,
Keith

Wanabeno1
-18th November 2006, 21:49
Dear All,

We have had about 50 applicants, so not too bad.

Uk Sport make the rules and Graham Watts and I did the work negotiating the money and a small band of talented fencers did the hardest bit, namely achieving great international results.

I hope we will select fencers with talent, determination and a positive attitude as withouit these they will not succeed.

Always good to read all the postings but still waiting for the volunteers to actually offer to help.

Good night,
Keith

Good luck to everyone

I hope we all get to know which people that are succeed are out of the 50, but still like to know about the ones that did not apply for what ever reason?

Dalesman
-18th November 2006, 21:52
(and boy, had you better watch out !!!:nanananan )

They are first from the starting blocks and getting an education (meean't to spell sommething wrong but habbit, you knoww) !!!!

alien abductee
-22nd November 2006, 21:31
Well 50 applicants is more than I expected and to be honest must include a few optimistic applications. Keith Smith has cleverly suggested that anyone not getting right behind the scheme or volunteering to help is a hopeless whinger. Despite this I've still got a few questions and doubts that I'd really like Keith or Graham Watts to provide answers to and reassure me that UK Sport isn't about to hand over a huge wad of cash to British Fencing that we might misspend horribly on a project that seems under-prepared and incompletely thought through and may result in other funding being cut as well if produces no or little return on a very large investment. Despite our best attempts to be relentlessly upbeat about the BFA Olympic Pathway (ok I perhaps haven't been relentlessly upbeat), I and plenty of others on here that would really like to see Britain medal at 2012 are very concerned that BFA are on the wrong path(way) with this scheme and the unseemly haste to grab the loot isn't the same as having a coherent plan that can be explained to BFA members whether at grass-roots or elite level. I'd love to be proved wrong on three counts: 1. Keith and/or Graham comes back on here and tells everything about the BFA Olympic Pathway (not just the FAQs on the BFA website or questions about the application process) and 2. I'm delighted and impressed with the detail and planning and 3. Britain gets an Olympic medal at London 2012. Should I hold my breath waiting for these things (no doubt some say 'yes')?

pavski
-24th November 2006, 15:51
Hi Keith

I sure that there are people that would volunteer, having looked (briefly) at the scheme I don't recall there being any request for volunteers although I could be wrong. Maybe it would be useful if you said what you needed from people so that those who felt that they might be able to help could identify with your needs and come forward (says he taking one step swiftly backwards!). On another note I think its a great opportunity for the younger fencers who are getting good international results to take themselves further without the lack of funding/support being an issue.

cheers Pavski

pavski
-24th November 2006, 16:03
tried to edit previous post ^^^ but fell foul of some wierd 7 minute rule...

so

eta!- I don't understand why the scheme would discriminate against those in full time education as this would rule out some of our most promising younger fencers. Any particular reasons for this?

randomsabreur
-24th November 2006, 16:42
I'm sure there must be some friendly employers/sponsors recruited for this to work. You can't live in London on 5k. Rent for a tiny flat/bedsit in a dodgy area would be in the region of £250 per month, and as a fencer returning from training at about 10pm, you don't want to be in a dodgy areas - you have to walk from car to house.

Also, you need to be within easy travelling distance of the training centres (central london) as it can take the best part of an hour to cross the central if the tubes are even slightly temperamental.

Presumably the funding would also cover your fencing expenses (i.e. club training, kit, gym membership, physio etc) but you still have to eat, live and run a car.

Also, most part time courses/employers would not have the degree of flexibility required. If you work part time, your holiday is pro-rated from the standard 20/25 days or whatever. So if you work 3 days per week, you get 15 days holiday per year, which would cover 2 major championships (World/Euro) and a couple of weeks training. Probably not enough. So you need more holiday than the average part time employee.

Then, senior a-grades run fri/sat, or sat/sun, plus a day for teams at GPs, so allowing travelling time, you'd want to be able to work Tues, Weds and half day Thursday (at a push) , with more hours out of season. BUT, these days are also the best days for squad training - you need a day to recover after a successful a-grade and you may well be flying back from some of the less accessible ones the day after the competition.

So, barring there being some friendly employers set up (CIC...) I don't see how it is possible as your only probable income would be sponsorship and the funding.

I suppose everyone could get typing training and work as temps - that would give the flexibility required.

I am very glad to have left London, and would not go back, whatever people wanted to pay me.

Keith.A.Smith
-25th November 2006, 12:21
Dear Al,

We have the APA selection weekend 8th to 10th December. Letters have been sent out. I am not involved in selection as I will head up an appeals procedure shoud it be needed.

I think everyone needs to realise that we are in a different world now and UK Sport and HM treasury impose strict rules. We will hopfeully have had about £5 million by the time we reach London 2012. This is rather different from the past. Uk Sport who provide this funding have imposed all sorts of criteria.

Some sports can avoid al of these as they have high profile and generous sponsors (rowing, cycling and sailing) but most of the smaller olympic sports are following the same course as us.

No it is not perfect but we are and will make progress. I will be honest and say that after 2012 there is a real risk that all sport will get less funding as the govt will say sport had 6 years with cash now it is another priority we must turn to. Hence development is so crucial now.

We can give more details after the selection weekend.Incidentally grass roots development is the clear responsibility of each Home Country so please conact them.I recently talked to another sport who were over the moon with similar funding to ours and thought the whole APA scheme was ideal for them. One of our problems is that fencers trend to be bright and go to university and into careers and increasingly at many sports this is not always the case. Uk Sport will say however that if you want to be a winner you must be realy dedicated and make sacrifices. Many of our champions and high performeers in other sports have done this.(no I am not saying it is easy but that is their response to me)

Concerning volunteers I have constantly asked for people to volunteer to help fencing in any way they feel they can (it is after all how I got involved and still am as a volunteer) and many have offered to help in various ways over the years but we always need more. If you feel you can help at any level please contact me and say how.

Also following another thread if it was not for the efforts of our best fencers and several volunteers having given up a great deal of time to negotiate with Uk Sport we would not have this money at all. I think it is now up to us to use it as best we can. It is after al a while since we had a fencer with sufficient training and dedication to make an Olympic Final but we got close in 2004 and with home backing in 2012 and every advantage we can manage I hope we can achieve our goal. If we fail it will be time for others to take over the reins and show us all how to do it.

Keith

Keith

alien abductee
-25th November 2006, 22:38
Keith

Thank you for taking the time to address some of our concerns since I'm sure that idle chatter on the forum isn't the most pressing matter you have to deal with. I look forward to hearing a lot more detail after the selection weekend since, now that the funding is secured, the details are largely what will determine the success of the BFA Olympic Pathway. I appreciate that the funding comes from UK Sport with certain strings and conditions attached and of course I'm happier that we now have this level of funding than not. I certainly appreciate the effort you have put into negotiating with UK Sport and it is obviously a considerable improvement on anything that British fencing has had before. I hope it produces the level of performance at world and Olympic level that we would all like to see.

rugmike
-26th November 2006, 11:37
Having regard to the average optimum age of successful Olympian fencers, it's clear sending someone a good bit younger isn't a good idea - with the obvious rider, that a once in a lifetime athlete occurs in most sports, at some time, in some place, very young. But these usually almost write their own script, and demand special attention, due to them being just so exceptional.

The pathway scheme is therefore probably right in apparently "tailoring" the demands etc.. to almost avoid the temptation of giving a choice ( for the youngest, at an impressionable age), between worthwhile secondary education, and going for a six-year slog, with no long-term guarantee of success. Achievement of the almost impossible seems easy at tender years !
So great care must surely be essential to avoid making the youngster's decision for her/him - which smacks of satisfying , not their ambition, but the carer/parent/coach etc...
Course, that's not saying the child shouldn't be allowed to devote themselves to achieving a very narrow goal in this way. Just not a brilliant idea.

For those of the youngset who are starting, or actually on, further education - or indeed starting a plumbing etc.. apprenticeship - the deal is a bit different. They are better able to make a choice, and are miles better equipped, to carry it out - having a driving license is a perfect example. But physically and mentally, they're probably better prepared.
And I think they are better equipped to accept the idea that all this work might well be in vain, perhaps because of an injury. Won't make any easier, but a bit easier to accept.
(Just think of all the football apprentices who now languish in dead-end jobs, or worse, ill-prepared for any sort of "outside" life/, through either not quite making it, or an injury. I know one, who has come through it - but it wasn't easy for them.)
And, after all that, BFA say it is still possible for someone to get there, without being accepted onto the scheme - although I think , with others, that might not last untill 2012. And will these people recieve any funding support? It will get more difficult.
Because the money has to be seen to be working. through the efforts of those who give it out, and in a structured way. Although I, too , am a bit wary of the "London is the best place for everything" accepted mantra.
BUT, the Olympics are there, after all.

AND, all my fevered spouting off doesn't mean we wouldn't like a bit of the cash to do it in our own way !

Phew.

ChubbyHubby
-6th December 2006, 15:43
Does anyone know who got shortlisted for this weekend's trials?

JulianRose
-6th December 2006, 16:35
Does anyone know who got shortlisted for this weekend's trials?

no, but i was a reserve, so they might have told me! even people who are on don't know!

Boo Boo
-6th December 2006, 16:51
no, but i was a reserve, so they might have told me! even people who are on don't know!

How can there be reserves for the trials? Surely a fencer is either suitable to be shortlisted or they are not? :whistle:

Boo

alien abductee
-6th December 2006, 17:59
:chair: :hairfire2 ...ranting :confused:
I no longer know what to say on this thread so have taken to posting an assortment of smilies that best reflect my feelings.

Boo Boo
-6th December 2006, 18:12
Very good luck to EVERYONE taking part this weekend. In particular to those from the South West and the WF applicants/applicant.

:thumbs_up

Boo
(can't remember how to mexican wave anymore... :( )

Foilling Around
-6th December 2006, 18:53
Very good luck to EVERYONE taking part this weekend. In particular to those from the South West and the WF applicants/applicant.

:thumbs_up

Boo
(can't remember how to mexican wave anymore... :( )

I echo Boo's good luck wishes and I hope it all goes well. I remain worried however that as of this weekend we are de facto writing off the London Olympic chances of those who do not apply for or get onto the scheme.

kingbob
-6th December 2006, 20:52
And good luck to the those who are travelling down from the North West.


:sabre:
KB

madfencer
-7th December 2006, 09:32
Good luck to everyone taking part! :grin:

:mexwave:

TLove
-7th December 2006, 11:19
How can there be reserves for the trials? Surely a fencer is either suitable to be shortlisted or they are not? :whistle:

Boo

Presumably if one of the shortlisted people drops out ...?

Boo Boo
-7th December 2006, 11:26
Presumably if one of the shortlisted people drops out ...?

Yes, but surely a candidate is suitable for shortlisting or not... the trials would be used to confirm suitability and, if there are more suitable candaites than there are places available, choose between candidates?

If there are a small number of reserves... take them to the trials and let their performances speak for themselves.

Boo

alien abductee
-10th December 2006, 19:28
Well, do any of the applicants want to tell us how much fun they had at the BFA Olympic Pathway trials this weekend? Bleep test immediately after circuit session?? Who tuned out to be hopelessly unfit? Who told the psychologist the truth? Etc., etc.

AMC
-11th December 2006, 11:10
I echo Boo's good luck wishes and I hope it all goes well. I remain worried however that as of this weekend we are de facto writing off the London Olympic chances of those who do not apply for or get onto the scheme.

Very interesting so when selection for the Olympic's is done and the fencer say is in the top three and not in the scheme does he /she get bypassed.

pinkelephant
-11th December 2006, 11:25
Very interesting so when selection for the Olympic's is done and the fencer say is in the top three and not in the scheme does he /she get bypassed.

From the FAQ on the BFA website

If I don’t get onto the programme will that mean I have no chance of qualifying for the British team?
No. Obviously, it is anticipated that the intensity of the programme will maximise opportunities for those selected fencers on the programme. Fencers other than those who receive an APA will also, however, be involved in the programme: for example, if only one fencer qualifies to be on the programme in any particular weapon, it is obviously impossible for them to train on their own. So even though there can only be a maximum of 19 fencers funded with an APA, other sparring and competition partners will be involved in the programme and will receive some funding to support their fencing. We certainly intend to keep teams at each weapon competing through the 2007/8 season. Selection to the individual events will continue to be made on the basis of a selection scheme approved by the Board and International Committee. Any fencers who achieve the appropriate selection standard will be eligible for selection.

hokers
-11th December 2006, 11:26
The real question is will priority in international selection decisions go to the Pathway candidates where there's discretion? Will we see someone with lower results go to Euros/Worlds etc ahead of a non-pathway fencer?

edit: question answered while I was typing :)


When are we likely to see a list of who's selected etc? Are the applicants secret?

AMC
-11th December 2006, 11:51
From the FAQ on the BFA website

selection scheme approved by the Board and International Committee. Any fencers who achieve the appropriate selection standard will be eligible for selection.

Thanks for that, however the above is still a bit woolly and could be read many different ways.

Boo Boo
-11th December 2006, 11:57
Thanks for that, however the above is still a bit woolly and could be read many different ways.

Goal achieved then...? :eek: ;)

thedoc
-11th December 2006, 12:34
to be honest, the day that british fencing has the luxury of being able to pick someone with slightly worse results than someone else, but who has still qualified for the worlds/olympics is the day that keith can retire a happy man knowing that he has done a top job in developing a large number of world class athletes.

until that day, i really wouldn't worry about it happening.

hokers
-11th December 2006, 12:51
to be honest, the day that british fencing has the luxury of being able to pick someone with slightly worse results than someone else, but who has still qualified for the worlds/olympics is the day that keith can retire a happy man knowing that he has done a top job in developing a large number of world class athletes.

until that day, i really wouldn't worry about it happening.

But it HAS happened before where discretionary selection has gone to a funded fencer who has NEARLY made the required results but not to a non-funded fencer who has the same results. Given the costs involved with travelling overseas to compete, this is the sort of thing that stops our top fencers making the effort to go to internationals.

thedoc
-11th December 2006, 13:49
well, given that the other non-funded fencer hadn't made the qualifying mark, they can have no real room for complaint that they did not go.

dubious selection happens in all sport. just look at the england cricket team.

imo, you can only really complain if you make the pre-advertised qualifying mark and get overlooked in favour of someone who hasn't. anything else is just tough titty, i am afraid.

Captain Jack
-11th December 2006, 13:58
well, given that the other non-funded fencer hadn't made the qualifying mark, they can have no real room for complaint that they did not go.

dubious selection happens in all sport. just look at the england cricket team.

imo, you can only really complain if you make the pre-advertised qualifying mark and get overlooked in favour of someone who hasn't. anything else is just tough titty, i am afraid.

So basically,

I we raise the qualifying criteria to only include those who have won a World Cup Event with a minimum NIF of 1000 held on a Tuesday in March. Then it would be fine to selected any funded fencer to make up teams, and those non funded would have no caused for complaint.

Ok a bit ridiculous, but is the current selection process any more transparent. I am fortunately rubbish so don't have to worry about these things, but looking for the outside the systems seem very unclear.

It would be great to get rid of the smoke and mirrors and just be honest and clear about these things, even if it causes some upset at least everyone would know where they stand. IMHO

hokers
-11th December 2006, 14:16
well, given that the other non-funded fencer hadn't made the qualifying mark, they can have no real room for complaint that they did not go.

You might very well not feel like that if you had paid for your child/partner/clubmate to go abroad and supported them and they'd got very close to the results they needed but someone else with the same results gets selected.

But this is a separate debate really. I'll be happy to come and spar with people in London now and again so give some variety as needed, hopefully plenty of other people will be happy to do the same.

TBennett
-11th December 2006, 16:33
Weekend was quite interesting...good fun though. Just wait and see what happens next and who will be selected.

Cheers for an insightful weekend to all fencers and officials who ran us into the ground (for the most part) ;)

Regards

ChubbyHubby
-11th December 2006, 17:18
Weekend was quite interesting...good fun though. Just wait and see what happens next and who will be selected.

Cheers for an insightful weekend to all fencers and officials who ran us into the ground (for the most part) ;)

Regards


So is it true that there were some fencers at the trials this past weekend who are not eligable for the Olympic Pathway scheme (age, unable to make all of the commitments required etc)?

and that the BFA have decided to relax some of the eligibility requirements for the scheme and/or have introduced lower levels of funding/support for those unable to make all of the commitments required by the original scheme?

TBennett
-11th December 2006, 17:45
Did I say that....? :) Not really sure what I am meant to/not meant to say so I will keep out of discussion at this point.

Sos all.

ChubbyHubby
-11th December 2006, 17:51
Did I say that....? :) Not really sure what I am meant to/not meant to say so I will keep out of discussion at this point.

Sos all.

Not saying you said that at all. Was just thinking you were there so must know who else was there ;)

pinkelephant
-11th December 2006, 18:04
So what happens to those who decided not to apply because they could not meet all of the rquirements, as compared to those who did apply, also knowing they could not meet all the requirements?

fencingmum
-11th December 2006, 18:27
Difficult to keep out of this.....
Yes, I believe there were some there who did not meet the stated criteria. But if they're very good.......?

PM1
-11th December 2006, 19:16
"very good" by whose standards? And if criteria are set then criteria are to be met. Otherwise there is no point in setting criteria IMO. Several "very good" fencers didn't apply because they could not or were not prepared to meet the criteria set.

I hope those who attended had an eventful and helpful w/e.

Boo Boo
-11th December 2006, 19:22
Yes, I believe there were some there who did not meet the stated criteria. But if they're very good.......?

No, I don't think anyone would complain about a little sensible leeway being given regarding the eligibility criteria for the scheme to suitable candidates - surely this scheme is about providing opportunities and not denying them... :thumbs_up

BUT there would be a quite a few very talented/capable candidates who may have felt that it was pointless applying for the scheme at this time because they are in full-time education outside of London and so couldn't meet the eligibility requirements (of dropping their full-time schooling/degree to move to London...). I would imagine that some of them could be very mad that these "relaxed criteria" were not advertised... :whistle:

Maybe the BFA intends to advertise this new level of support and hold more trials in the new year? :)

Boo

Foilling Around
-11th December 2006, 21:20
Difficult to keep out of this.....
Yes, I believe there were some there who did not meet the stated criteria. But if they're very good.......?

If they were there to make the training/selection worthwhile and are not there to get funding then fine, but if there were "relaxed criteria" then a lot of people would be mad. I cannot imagine for a minute that people will get money from this programme without being able to fulfill the advertised criteria, I'm sure Graham W is more sensible than that.

If that was the case then there would all kinds of appeals to UK Sport as the funding body from fencers and parents who did not apply because to the restrictions, only to find that the riteria have been overlooked for some fencers who did apply..

Baldric
-11th December 2006, 21:40
I suspect that there were a number of people there who hadn't made their minds up about the commitment.

Maybe they wanted to have a chance to see more about what was on offer, and to discuss opportunities with GW and others before deciding?

Apart from age, which is not alterable, most of the other criteria were related to abandoning other commitments and moving to London. Who's to say whether people might be prepared to do that? Just cos we know that they are working full time, or on a degree course doesn't mean they still will be on Jan 1st.

Everyone seems only too willing to pull this process apart based on hearsay, supposition and prejudice. Why not wait and see how it goes? Or at least read the FAQ document on the BF website before spreading doom and despondency.

Graham made it clear in his FAQ document that there will be at least two more intakes - Sept 2007 and Sept 2008. This first lot has obviously been rushed to take maximum advantage of 2006/7 funding, and it would be surprising if the process was not flawed.

Its worth remembering that without Graham and Keiths work, there wouldn't be a programme at all. They persuaded UKS to part with their £££ and will be working within tight criteria themselves. Give them a break!

ChubbyHubby
-11th December 2006, 22:30
If they were there to make the training/selection worthwhile and are not there to get funding then fine, but if there were "relaxed criteria" then a lot of people would be mad. I cannot imagine for a minute that people will get money from this programme without being able to fulfill the advertised criteria, I'm sure Graham W is more sensible than that.

If that was the case then there would all kinds of appeals to UK Sport as the funding body from fencers and parents who did not apply because to the restrictions, only to find that the riteria have been overlooked for some fencers who did apply..

I doubt those people were there to "help the selection process". From the relatively hush hush nature of who was there, what went on, how they got there, I'd bet they were invited there or they had convinced the BFA there should be a second tier of funding. (if it is the latter, fair play to them! )

One could say "why didn't the BFA open up this additional opportunity to others", but then the people that got invitied were probably considered prospects, and if a fencer is not invited to apply they probably "didn't have a chance" anyway.

The cynic in me thinks that it is a relatively subjective process anyway. At the end of the day it is whether "they" (the selectors) think if a fencer has what it takes.

Nevertheless, I'd imagine there would be a few annoyed people out there if there turns out to be a second tier of funding that wasn't advertised.

alien abductee
-11th December 2006, 22:50
I doubt those people were there to "help the selection process". From the relatively hush hush nature of who was there, what went on, how they got there, I'd bet they were invited there or they had convinced the BFA there should be a second tier of funding. (if it is the latter, fair play to them! )

One could say "why didn't the BFA open up this additional opportunity to others", but then the people that got invitied were probably considered prospects, and if a fencer is not invited to apply they probably "didn't have a chance" anyway.

The cynic in me thinks that it is a relatively subjective process anyway. At the end of the day it is whether "they" (the selectors) think if a fencer has what it takes.

Nevertheless, I'd imagine there would be a few annoyed people out there if there turns out to be a second tier of funding that wasn't advertised.

What a terrible cynic!!!

- subjective selection process when the fencers have worked themselves to a standstill at the trials in the belief that their performances will be decisive on securing the princely funding avilable? Ridiculous suggestion!

- unadvertised second tier of funding? Surely not!!! In our open and accountable governing body? No way!

- "invited to apply"? This isn't some cosy gentleman's club, you know!

Really, Chubby Hubby, I don't know where you get this stuff from. Next thing you'll be telling us that details of training, coaching and sport science aren't available yet because such plans don't exist or that the money has been secured on the basis of little more than a promise that "we'll come up with something good!" Pull yourself together man and stop this fanciful nonsense!

ChubbyHubby
-11th December 2006, 22:56
What a terrible cynic!!!

- subjective selection process when the fencers have worked themselves to a standstill at the trials in the belief that their performances will be decisive on securing the princely funding avilable? Ridiculous suggestion!

- unadvertised second tier of funding? Surely not!!! In our open and accountable governing body? No way!

- "invited to apply"? This isn't some cosy gentleman's club, you know!

Really, Chubby Hubby, I don't know where you get this stuff from. Next thing you'll be telling us that details of training, coaching and sport science aren't available yet because such plans don't exist or that the money has been secured on the basis of little more than a promise that "we'll come up with something good!" Pull yourself together man, this isn't some shower of sorry amateurs you're talking about!

:whistle: :)

Wanabeno1
-12th December 2006, 08:18
[QUOTE=alien abductee]What a terrible cynic!!!

Can someone clear the air and give a definitive answer, one parent told me that if they changed the rules (even a little) without telling everyone, mad is not the word!!

This is not fair, the rumours etc, they are not good for anyone.

All this is doing is dragging the name of fencing down, come on lets not let this happen. This could be the best chance fencing has, lets not spoil it.

007
-12th December 2006, 10:22
alien abductee is Pure class!!! Brilliant!!!:thumbs_up

hokers
-12th December 2006, 10:43
The cynic in me thinks that it is a relatively subjective process anyway. At the end of the day it is whether "they" (the selectors) think if a fencer has what it takes.


It's GOT to be a *bit* selective. A good percentage of what makes a fencer successful is mental approach to the fight. This is something not easily measurable you can only analyse it qualitatively. Do you go with your double national junior champion who has a bad day at the trials (nursing an injury?) or your up and coming but somewhat emotionally unstable "young gun" who impresses everyone at the trial but hasn't got the results to back it up?
(those are invented scenarios by the way - they don't refer to anyone in particular)

Point being the selection people will have to take lots of factors into account here. This isn't just about current form like selection for the next event, it's "who do we think will still be there at the end (6 years time) with the best chance of getting us a medal?"

ChubbyHubby
-12th December 2006, 16:23
It's GOT to be a *bit* selective. A good percentage of what makes a fencer successful is mental approach to the fight. This is something not easily measurable you can only analyse it qualitatively. Do you go with your double national junior champion who has a bad day at the trials (nursing an injury?) or your up and coming but somewhat emotionally unstable "young gun" who impresses everyone at the trial but hasn't got the results to back it up?
(those are invented scenarios by the way - they don't refer to anyone in particular)

Point being the selection people will have to take lots of factors into account here. This isn't just about current form like selection for the next event, it's "who do we think will still be there at the end (6 years time) with the best chance of getting us a medal?"

I agree. I'm just pointing out how the "trials" were presented/communicated as this open "come if you're hard enough" process.

Keith.A.Smith
-12th December 2006, 19:23
Dear All,

UK Sport have been constantly negotiating with us so that we can maximise the use and potential of the money. I think they may now be a little more flexible than they had originally said they would be and so we may need to alter certain factors a little. This only became apparent after the weekend.

I am in charge of appeals and so took no formal part in any selections. Interstingly UK sport felt having appeals was possibly a tad too democratic!!

UK Sport felt we really had made a very large effort to try to be objective and include many criteria they approved of and they are the paymasters.

I was very impressed with all those who had been selected for the trials. I was present only on the Saturday and Graham Watts and I will be talkimng shortly.

I appreciate that people think some of this is secretive but I am not going to discuss the merits of individuals on this forum. Some of the data must remain confidential till the whole process is over.

My thanksto Baldric for pointing out that without a great deal of work by some people and excellent fencing by some of our fencers we would not have the money at all. I have a dream that we will get better and better results and have put my effort where my mouth is to try to bring it about as have others such as dedictaed fencers and coaches and certain volunteers and many parents.

I should also point out that I get moans and complaints about regions, weapon comittees, competition organisers, referees, coaches, fencers, parents etc but would certainly not air them on this forum.

Best wishes to al and as soon as we have a final picture this will be published. You need to remember that we are dealing with a government body that has a way of working and we are tryimng to work with it and lso harness the best bits of the system. I am passionate that we can do better but it will take al involved to pul in the broadly same direction to achieve it. We have to realise that we will have agreat deal of money in our terms but cannot just fritter it all away (in the eyes of UK Sport, the media etc).

Homily over,

Keith

alien abductee
-12th December 2006, 19:43
Keith, thank you again for taking the time to post here. Despite appearances sometimes, I do want the BFA Olympic Pathway to succeed. Some of the detail seems a bit vague or light and a few of the basic premises don't seem right but it is a genuine desire to see improvement that makes me post my concerns (and the wish to get a cheap laugh now and again obviously). I can't help myself really!!

I hope you'll be back to keep us all updated with developments as the Pathway progresses.

ChubbyHubby
-14th December 2006, 21:57
I was very impressed with all those who had been selected for the trials. I was present only on the Saturday and Graham Watts and I will be talkimng shortly.

I appreciate that people think some of this is secretive but I am not going to discuss the merits of individuals on this forum. Some of the data must remain confidential till the whole process is over.



I don't think anyone is saying any of the people picked for the trials
did not deserve to be there - they certainly do! We obviously also
appreciate all of the work everyone involved has done to get the funding
etc but..

IMHO the issue here is that the BFA had published a set of eligibility
criteria for the trials and then relaxed those criteria without
PUBLICALLY advertising it (thereby discouraging many people from
applying).

You are saying that during the course of the weekend it became apparent
that there are more opportunities than previously thought... However, a
significant number of candidates at the trials did not meet the
published criteria for being shortlisted to attend the trials.

A significant number of fencers were invited/"encouraged" to attend
despite their ineligibility (in fairness to those who attended, I am not
going to list the names here...). So someone somewhere must have decided that there were going to be some "opportunities" (which hadn't been advertised) available to these "ineligible" candidates BEFORE the trials were held?

In fairness to the people who didn't apply because they thought they
didn't meet the criteria (e.g. people studying at university full-time
or still at school or living/training outside of London or aboard), will
that now mean that they have the opportunity to reapply for *this* round
of applications?

Will the BFA advertise/hold additional trials in the New Year?

Surely it would be unethical for the BFA to deprive fencers the
opportunity to apply for the APA (or any lower forms of support/fudning)
available under the new "relaxed" criteria, nor would it do to simply say "they can always apply again when the trials are held again"...

alien abductee
-14th December 2006, 23:11
Letters to successful applicants for Athlete Personal Awards due out this week, I believe. I would think that's your lot for this round of funding and if you weren't invited to the trials you've no chance of receiving a present from our Performance Director until the next round is carried out in September 2007.

The full extent of the greater flexibility that Keith mentions will no doubt become apparent when the list of successful applicants is published but I certainly hope that the criteria for the 2007 funding round will be clearer (within their apparently expanded boundaries) and published early and that the full details of the scheme (not just the application process) are made freely available.

Maybe I'll fill in BFA Communications Review questionnaire with some specific requests!

Keith.A.Smith
-15th December 2006, 08:24
Dear All,

Graham Watts is meeting with our UK Sport rep again next week.

You have to realise that UK Sport are trying to be helpful to us by allowing some Talent funding which originally did not seem possible.

Again we are in a new situation which has involved bartering and negotiating with UK Sport and trying to get the best deal for our fencers and fencing in general.

Keith

NLSC Sabreur
-15th December 2006, 09:34
I did hear a bit about the trials on Wednesday night but after imbibing a bit of alcohol the details might be slightly fuzzy. I do remember hearing that at least two of the foilists were throwing up in the toilets because the physical training was so hard. It sounded like the trials were well organised (with foreign experts to give additional input) and very hard physically.

Although there has obviously been national squads before what is being created now is a big leap beyond what has gone before.

What we don't know is whether the invitations just went out to the obvious candidates (right age currently high in the rankings) or were less obvious candidates (also under 30 but who might not be training much recently but have massive talent)?

Mind you as the all over 30s team from NLSC beat the all in their 20s Scimitar team (including one Olympic trialist) on Wednesday night perhaps under 30 is not the direction to look!

Wanabeno1
-15th December 2006, 09:46
You are saying that during the course of the weekend it became apparent
that there are more opportunities than previously thought... However, a
significant number of candidates at the trials did not meet the
published criteria for being shortlisted to attend the trials.


Are there going to be more trials, with different criteria, when will we hear?

Some people might take another look!!

What is going to happen if the rumour that some peolpe went to see if they were good enough or what would be involved are true and then turn down the offer?

Cuppa
-15th December 2006, 09:59
Mind you as the all over 30s team from NLSC beat the all in their 20s Scimitar team (including one Olympic trialist) on Wednesday night perhaps under 30 is not the direction to look!


I will drink the to that! Pass the Mateus Rose and a packet of Spangles please!!!

Captain Jack
-15th December 2006, 10:28
There is huge cause for concern here!!!!!!

There appear to be two positions here. The position taken by Chubby Hubby and others that they have information suggesting less than appropriate governance and communication of criteria. The idea that some people were 'invited' implies a certain pre decision.

The idea that the trials themselves were heavy physically does not suggest that much will have been learned from the trials that was not already apparent making it more and more likely that subjective views will hold sway beyond the level they warrant.

If you are looking at potential far more valuable would have been reaction time testing tactile, and visual, motor coordination test, hand eye coordination, pattern recognition, mental agility, psych profile and a million other fencing relevant tests.

Chubby has a good point, if there were people on the trial who did not meet criteria why were they there, or rather if they were there shouldn't all applicants have been there.

New levels of funding appearing on the weekend for the first time (oh please are UK sport really that disorganised they only realised on the day there was more money at a different level) if they really are that disorganised I don't think they will appreciate you stating it on a public forum. If they are not what is the actual story behind this 'other' funding.

There appear to be two parties in the discussion who are incredibly well informed (obviously Keith) and Alien Abductee although every time abductee actually refutes something it is not with fact but with a, do you really think... tone.

Also Keith has not refuted any on Chubby's suggestions. It would have been possible to do so with out naming names, also without giving away state secret.

My huge concern is this fencing has a long legacy of lacking in transparency and having things decided in secret behind closed doors etc.

It would have taken very little to say, the invited trailists who did not meet criteria were only there for practical purposes in testing the actual trialists, they are not eligable for money. There is some new money at a new level, and we will let everyone know what the plan is for this asap. If you didn't apply for the original money because you didn't meet the criteria but are eligiable for the new money will have a fair chance to apply for it.

We are lucky that people as well informed as Alien Abductee (who seems to know things only BFA hierachy are privy to) and Keith post on the forum, the danger they do however face in doing so is they appear to confirm our greatest fears when they fail to refute them.

I for one think Keith is doing a great job, I do however wish BFA as a whole could become more open, honest, and transparent. If this occured theie would be far less conspiracy theory on this forum, amd a far happier general membership. This can only be a good thing. Failure to communicate often makes other believe you have something to hide.

IMHO Keep up the good work, just communicate it better.

Foilling Around
-15th December 2006, 19:17
Money is the root of all evil!!

It is such a shame that this time of celebration, when we have the best chance ever of moving British Fencing onto a new level, should be ending up with the same old bickering and cynicism.

Anything I say on this subject will be based on rumour, speculation and .......nothing else. I intend to keep my powder dry until I have something more concrete to comment on. I am however a little worried especially as I have an offspring who did not apply for the scheme on the ground of the commitment at her currently tender age.

It becomes so much more important when the sums of money involved can support a person's livelyhood and the decisions taken now can commit you to path at least 6 years in length.

pinkelephant
-15th December 2006, 21:28
Money is the root of all evil!!



I thought it was the PURSUIT of money.

Captain Jack
-15th December 2006, 21:34
Just realised baby elephant was a BUSA all weekend and not at trials, yet one of the people he beat to win the epee was there.

Making (could be a big assumption) the assumption he didn't apply (being at Uni is Jordie land) would expect fairly miffed reaction if others who also didn't meet criteria wound up with cash.

or is that one assumption too far.

Worth noting thats the 2nd major championship event he's won in 2006, if we don't fund him who do we give cash too??

(O'Connell and Kruse obviously but beyond that?)

IMHO

Red
-15th December 2006, 23:03
(O'Connell and Kruse obviously but beyond that?)


Why should they be obvious? Don't they already have great funding etc... One's sponsored by Allstar, the other by LP IIRC, and surely that isn't the only help they get. Yes, they're both fantastic now (RK - 24 in world, AOC - 48 in junior, 160 in senior) but will they be tomorrow? Can anyone chase the same kind of goals for eight or more years without burning out?

Captain Jack
-15th December 2006, 23:15
is that the current funding is focused at Beijing. Kruse is a clear medal prospect, and O'Connell as ex cadet world champion is exactly what every funding body are looking for in every sport.

They are obvious because no funding scheme in existance would reject either ( except possibly BFA olympic pathways as O'Connell is in full time education outside of London??)

BUt really they are the stand out pair from our current senior squads.

D'Artignan
-16th December 2006, 00:37
I thought it was the PURSUIT of money.Nope. It's love of money.

And as for RK and AO'C, I think you'll find they don't recieve that much in the way of funding. My part-time job pays more than the top fencers recieve in funding, and I'm only just over min. wage....

ChubbyHubby
-16th December 2006, 09:30
Money is the root of all evil!!

It is such a shame that this time of celebration, when we have the best chance ever of moving British Fencing onto a new level, should be ending up with the same old bickering and cynicism.


Surely you are not suggesting we should let these issues be swepted under the carpet to present a united front for PR purposes?

IMHO I don't think money is the issue here really. We are only talking about £5k (not even that if you end up on a different level of funding). The issue here is how the BFA communicates and action its policies, and the opportunities denied to fencers such as FA Junior.

Can you imagine something similar happening in the US for example? The lawyers would be having a great time by now.

pinkelephant
-16th December 2006, 11:01
Just realised baby elephant was a BUSA all weekend and not at trials, yet one of the people he beat to win the epee was there.

Making (could be a big assumption) the assumption he didn't apply (being at Uni is Jordie land) would expect fairly miffed reaction if others who also didn't meet criteria wound up with cash.

or is that one assumption too far.


IMHO

That is most certainly not one assumption too far - it's bang on the nail. He didn't apply, having looked at the criteria, and having already had experience of trying to survive in London for a year on similar amounts of money - and also with regard to the support he already receives from Northumbria and a sense of loyalty and commitment. He also was not "invited" to the trials.

alien abductee
-16th December 2006, 11:07
If you know anyone who applied, why not get in touch with them and see if they got a nice Christmas present from Uncle Graham in the post today.

Captain Jack
-16th December 2006, 18:10
I actually have no idea who applied and who didn't but here is some food for thought.

L Bond-Williams-
Doesn't meet criteria (in USA with one of worlds best coaches) - British Champ a lot, last 8 Olympics!!!, top world ranked senior fencer........

A O'Connell -
Doesn't Meet Criteria (Cambridge Uni)- World Cadet Champion!!!!!!

J Salfield -
Doesn't Meet Criteria (too old?)

Ok thats just a few examples of people everyone would agree should be considerations even if not final picks.

But ... sorry to use epee but info is easier to come by as most fence for their unis, plus have parents posting on here... in some cases we are ignoring a whole generation of fencers in a weapon.

J Craig -
Doesn't meet criteria (Glasgow Uni) - British No. 1 Junior Epeeist

J Melia -
Doesn't meet criteria (Northumbria Uni) - British No. 2 Junior Epeeist & Junior Champion

M Stewart -
Doesn't meet criteria (Final year school) - British No. 3 Junior Epeeist

J Thornton -
Doesn't meet criteria (Northumbria Uni)- Junior Commonwealth and BUSA Champion

Don't know much about foil i'm afraid but names like Robinson, Melia, Mepstead, and the younger Rowsowsky spring to mind.

Just thinking about how many top people either ma have been turned down, or not applied at all. No real agenda to this one just made me stop and think so thought it might do the same for a few of you.

Oh yeah and Chubby Hubby :)

Captain Jack
-16th December 2006, 18:17
Just realised baby elephant was a BUSA all weekend and not at trials, yet one of the people he beat to win the epee was there.

Making (could be a big assumption) the assumption he didn't apply (being at Uni is Jordie land) would expect fairly miffed reaction if others who also didn't meet criteria wound up with cash.

or is that one assumption too far.

Worth noting thats the 2nd major championship event he's won in 2006, if we don't fund him who do we give cash too??

(O'Connell and Kruse obviously but beyond that?)

IMHO


One of my colleagues has just rightly pointed out that in my haste to praise the 'Burley Boy' I may have over looked another top performer who I eluded to in the post.

I would just like to go on record and say that Gordon was pretty awesome last year,(World Top 20 finish and some big home results to boot) and I wish him the best of success (or translated I hope he got a nice letter from Uncle Graham this morning xmas post not withstanding)

ChubbyHubby
-16th December 2006, 19:53
Oh yeah and Chubby Hubby :)

Actually no. Not even close - never even been in the top 30.

and not for Boo either as in fencing terms she'll be er..... let's just say "no spring chicken by 2012".

In fact that's actually why I can be so vocal about it - they have nothing on us any more!

alien abductee
-16th December 2006, 20:03
In fact that's actually why I can be so vocal about it - they have nothing on us any more!

But they know where you live and will hunt you down like the dog that you are!!!*.....:eek:

The first bit's true, assuming your BF membership is up to date. The second bit isn't, so far as I know...

Captain Jack
-16th December 2006, 20:10
I have to disagree with AA's last post on several points

1) BFA records up to date (wish i knew how to do huge laughing head off smiley)

2) Chubby is a foilist not a dog (easy mistake ) (Joking before all the foilists slate me)

3) Hunt down - well atleast it might get more press, they could have bill in parliment. We could start our own bloodsport (would probably get more funding ) :)

Captain Jack
-16th December 2006, 20:55
And I am now in a position to offer support to Chubby Hubby and his paranoid ramblings.

I am very sad to say that I can 100% confirm a double standard at work.

It would be grossly unreasonable to put what I now know on the forum and I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

I would just urge all interested parties (especialy those not applying as not willing to move to London, in full time education, or injured) to force the issue with BFA.

I stress my position. Great work is being done. It must be done in a way that is not only open, honest and transparent, but that is seen, to be open honest and transparent.

One very unhappy captain.:(

Foilling Around
-17th December 2006, 22:01
I thought it was the PURSUIT of money.

Actually the quote is the love of money, but who said I was quoting....... it is just my opinion!!!!

kd5mdk
-18th December 2006, 00:49
Wouldn't it matter which translation you're reading, or is Establishment that powerful in your minds? ;)

3 Card Trick
-18th December 2006, 07:48
Sorry to be a pedant but "radix malorum est cupiditas" translates as the "pursuit of worldy gain is the root of all evil". Money as we know it was not such an advanced concept in Augustinian times.:thumbs_up Augustine was contrasting Spiritual and worldly in his antithesis, namely, Cupiditas/Caritas.

Mind you, as I was at School with Vicky and Albert maybe things have changed. Or was I at School with Augustine? It's so long ago I can't remember anymore!

Captain Jack
-18th December 2006, 22:32
...Confucius and Machiavelli no doubt ;)

Of course this could all be a red herring I thought Santa (ref post by PE) was home schooled by elves :)

PM1
-18th December 2006, 22:33
...Confucius and Machiavelli no doubt ;)

Of course this could all be a red herring I thought Santa (ref post by PE) was home schooled by elves :)

wasn't that Tigger??:eek:

Captain Jack
-18th December 2006, 22:42
He was either in the naughty corner or bunking off to play guitar with those spanish exchange students. ;)

Oh yeah that and he would have to be about 200 years (ok 20 years) older.

May be he's a time traveller. :)

PM1
-18th December 2006, 22:48
You might not be too far from the truth there.....:whistle:

Captain Jack
-18th December 2006, 23:16
And I am now in a position to offer support to Chubby Hubby and his paranoid ramblings.

I am very sad to say that I can 100% confirm a double standard at work.

It would be grossly unreasonable to put what I now know on the forum and I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

I would just urge all interested parties (especialy those not applying as not willing to move to London, in full time education, or injured) to force the issue with BFA.

I stress my position. Great work is being done. It must be done in a way that is not only open, honest and transparent, but that is seen, to be open honest and transparent.

One very unhappy captain.:(

It has been pointed out to me that the above post could be construed as an accusation against specific individuals. This was not my intention. It is my regret that as is often the case on the forum the post was not complete in detail or thorough in explaination.

The double standard that I refered to has occured as a result of problems in communication and understanding regarding the Olympic Pathways Criteria and procedure. The result of these issues being that many talented athletes did not apply. Regretably those who were closer to the core of BFA had the foresight (either through explaination or self motivation) to apply; additionally there were a number of non applicants invited to trial.

Given that money now exists for this 2nd tier. Through no deliberate intent a double standard has been created where certain athletes have had the opportunity to show their worth and 'compete' for funding that their peers have not. This has created an unfortunate double standard.

My original post was designed to urge as many of these athletes (who have fallen through the gap) as possible to contact BFA a hopefully recover a little of their position in this regard.

My expressions of regret and sadness are for those who may have missed out through not having clear understanding who I am aware have devoted much time and effort in their lives to success in fencing.

I would like to finish this particular post by restating my position which is I believe that Keith, Graham and many others a working incredibly hard for BFA and are doing a good job for us. I do however continue to urge BFA to communicate more effectively and clearly especially regarding issues of such importance. To this end I would encourage everyone to contribute to BFA communications review.

It is very sad we find ourselves in positions of this nature, but it is a product of investment into our sport and it is understood that with this investment comes constraints of both time and action so it is sometimes difficult to implement schemes they way which we would in an ideal world.

Money as has been implied often in this thread is a two edged sword (as as such would never great through a weapons control ;) )

3 Card Trick
-18th December 2006, 23:57
I really hope that no one in authority in the BFA suggested to any single person or small group of persons that they might like to apply for something which they apparently did not meet the criteria for. If they did, and did not publish that view to all persons who might have benefited from such a relaxation of the published criteria then they would be guilty of a gross failure of probity, which might very well be actionable on behalf of anyone who subsequently could show that they had lost out financially.

As the handling of significant sums of money always seems to bring out the base suspicions of man and woman kind I am sure that this is not the case.

If anyone knows differently, then I, as a Director of the BFA, would be very keen to be told the details of any such accusation so that it may be fully and fairly investigated.

Mike Thornton

Boo Boo
-19th December 2006, 00:00
Am I missing something? I thought that was what you said/meant the first time...???

Boo


It has been pointed out to me that the above post could be construed as an accusation against specific individuals. This was not my intention. It is my regret that as is often the case on the forum the post was not complete in detail or thorough in explaination.

The double standard that I refered to has occured as a result of problems in communication and understanding regarding the Olympic Pathways Criteria and procedure. The result of these issues being that many talented athletes did not apply. Regretably those who were closer to the core of BFA had the foresight (either through explaination or self motivation) to apply; additionally there were a number of non applicants invited to trial.

Given that money now exists for this 2nd tier. Through no deliberate intent a double standard has been created where certain athletes have had the opportunity to show their worth and 'compete' for funding that their peers have not. This has created an unfortunate double standard.

My original post was designed to urge as many of these athletes (who have fallen through the gap) as possible to contact BFA a hopefully recover a little of their position in this regard.

My expressions of regret and sadness are for those who may have missed out through not having clear understanding who I am aware have devoted much time and effort in their lives to success in fencing.

I would like to finish this particular post by restating my position which is I believe that Keith, Graham and many others a working incredibly hard for BFA and are doing a good job for us. I do however continue to urge BFA to communicate more effectively and clearly especially regarding issues of such importance. To this end I would encourage everyone to contribute to BFA communications review.

It is very sad we find ourselves in positions of this nature, but it is a product of investment into our sport and it is understood that with this investment comes constraints of both time and action so it is sometimes difficult to implement schemes they way which we would in an ideal world.

Money as has been implied often in this thread is a two edged sword (as as such would never great through a weapons control ;) )

Captain Jack
-19th December 2006, 00:08
I hope that you don't get a response to that one.

As previously stated there were people who attended the trial who did not meet the criteria, and those who did not apply because they did not meet the criteria.

The fact that there is now the possibilty of money for this second more relaxed level is great. Unfortunately the timing of this news has unfortunately given some a potential advantage over their peers.

This is not, at least in my belief, but intent or design but rather more down to unfortunate timing. As I have no doubt had this information been available earlier then not only would the trial group likely have been widened, but it is also likely that many more applications would have been recieved.

I continue to comend Keith and Graham et al. on the work they do.

I formally or even forumly apologise for any confusion or upset my failiure to be clear on previous posts may have caused.

ChubbyHubby
-19th December 2006, 00:25
Did you know if you went to google.co.uk and searched for "uksport olympic pathway fencing", this thread is ranked no.3?

Captain Jack
-19th December 2006, 00:32
Thats a pretty specific search

that said the top 2 a probably garden fencing companies in Ioha :)

OLYMPIC Fencers - you garden could soon SPORT a new PATHWAY or FENCING just like they have in the UK.

:)

UglyBug
-20th December 2006, 09:08
Sorry to be a pedant but "radix malorum est cupiditas" translates as the "pursuit of worldy gain is the root of all evil". Money as we know it was not such an advanced concept in Augustinian times.:thumbs_up Augustine was contrasting Spiritual and worldly in his antithesis, namely, Cupiditas/Caritas.

Mind you, as I was at School with Vicky and Albert maybe things have changed. Or was I at School with Augustine? It's so long ago I can't remember anymore!

You're not sorry in the SLIGHTEST about being a pedant!! Unless someone is posing as Uncle 3CT!!!

UglyBug
-20th December 2006, 09:19
In all seriousness, are the actual results out yet?

pinkelephant
-20th December 2006, 10:02
I believe the timetable for the announcement is governed by UK Sport, and will be sometime in early January.

ChubbyHubby
-20th December 2006, 11:01
I believe the timetable for the announcement is governed by UK Sport, and will be sometime in early January.

[cynic mode ON]
So that they have plenty of time to get the story straight?
[cynic mode OFF]

Okay, I'll go off into my corner now and be quiet....

Boo Boo
-20th December 2006, 11:23
[cynic mode ON]
So that they have plenty of time to get the story straight?
[cynic mode OFF]

Okay, I'll go off into my corner now and be quiet....

In all fairness, I think it is actually to allow for an "appeals process". BUT if the rules for appeal basically say "we can pick who we like" (the usual...), I would imagine that would be quite short... :rolleyes:

In the mean time, anyone who feels that they have "missed out" by the introduction of the new "relaxed criteria" might want to communicate this to the BFA... Keith seems to be a good person to talk to and I would have a chat to 3CT too...

Boo

ChubbyHubby
-4th January 2007, 16:57
Anything published anywhere yet? Do we know who got what?

Did anyone appeal? What happened at that "meeting" the other week?

alien abductee
-4th January 2007, 18:18
Nothing published yet that I've seen. Induction meeting for the selected athletes this weekend, I believe.

ChubbyHubby
-4th January 2007, 18:56
Nothing published yet that I've seen. Induction meeting for the selected athletes this weekend, I believe.
I guess BFA HQ isn't opened again until next Monday, maybe we'll hear something then.

Dalesman
-6th January 2007, 20:35
Nothing published yet that I've seen. Induction meeting for the selected athletes this weekend, I believe.

So has anyone heard through the grape vine? :whistle:

alien abductee
-7th January 2007, 21:36
So has anyone heard through the grape vine? :whistle:

Apparently all will be revealed to the great unwashed (i.e. you and me) tomorrow on the BFA website. I'm almost wetting myself with anticipation...:dizzy: Second tier funding confirmed.

Wanabeno1
-8th January 2007, 09:14
Apparently all will be revealed to the great unwashed (i.e. you and me) tomorrow on the BFA website. I'm almost wetting myself with anticipation...:dizzy: Second tier funding confirmed.

I shall get a wash and check it out, thanks

Keith.A.Smith
-8th January 2007, 11:11
Dear All,

Yes the results and APA recipients will be relaesed today as per the UK Sport deadlines. Remember this is public money and will amount to over £5.5million by 2012 and so we have to follow their guidelines.

Keith

madfencer
-8th January 2007, 12:35
Thanks for keeping us updated Keith! :grin:

madfencer

Wanabeno1
-8th January 2007, 13:08
Yea thanks for the update, awaiting results.

Dalesman
-8th January 2007, 13:37
:thumbs_up I'll just keep checking and holding my breath then, gasp gasp :thumbs_up

Shaka
-8th January 2007, 14:34
Details and "Selected 16" now up on the BFA website.

hokers
-8th January 2007, 14:45
Quick summary, much more detail on the BFA site:
http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=495

World Class Podium Programme
JAMES BEEVERS (27)
LOUISE BOND-WILLIAMS (24)
JO HUTCHISON (20)
RICHARD KRUSE (23)
CHRYSTALL NICOLL (20)
DAVID RISELEY (22)

The ten new members of the World Class Development programme are:
ANNA BENTLEY (25 – Foil) from West London
CHRIS BUXTON (26 – Sabre) from Somerset
KEITH COOK (25 – Foil) from Edinburgh
LAURENCE HALSTED (22 – Foil) from Highgate, North London
NEIL HUTCHISON (22 – Sabre) from Bath
ED JEFFERIES (17 – Foil) from Inverness
STUART MARSHALL (18 – Sabre) from Hyde, Cheshire
AHMED ROSOWSKY (18 – Foil) from Sheffield
JAMES TAYLOR (24 – Epee) from South Wales
JON WILLIS (25 – Epee) from Stockport

8 foilists, 6 sabreurs and 2 epeeists.
Some candidates older than I thought they were, especially when you add 5.5 years, but (without knowing who else applied) this is a pretty strong lineup in terms of talent. Got to feel a bit sorry for the epeeists with only 2 of them though - how many times are they going to fight each other in the next few years?

Sophie
-8th January 2007, 14:56
What excellent news!

Congratulations to all who have been selected.

(A minor gripe about the BFA site, which I will be passing on to Keith direct - this is really good latest news! Why is it 2/3rds of the way down the home page with the "new" BFA calendar still at the top of the page...?)

Anyway - well done again to everyone chosen to represent GB

madfencer
-8th January 2007, 15:10
Congratulations to everyone who was selected! :mexwave:

And commiserations to those who weren't...I'm sure everyone worked really hard and I know that some people on the forum (and elsewhere) will be a little disappointed to not be selected...so have a big hug from me! *hug*

Remember there will be later intakes so the fencers who didn't get in could always re-apply! (or is that not allowed?) Shame there are only two epeeists, but who knows what will happen with the later intakes when some very good young epeeists will be a few years older!

madfencer

rory
-8th January 2007, 15:24
As always, Scotland is very well represented...
Congrats to Richard, Cookie, Anna and Ed (and everyone else too)

fencingmum
-8th January 2007, 16:52
Congratulations to everyone! - especially my own personal favourite (well she is Scottish and is WF.....) - Anna B. However she is the only WF as far as I can see. Who is she going to fence?

alien abductee
-8th January 2007, 16:57
Congratulations to everyone! - especially my own personal favourite (well she is Scottish and is WF.....) - Anna B. However she is the only WF as far as I can see. Who is she going to fence?

Rumour I heard was that she won't be training/fencing in the UK. But, hey, that's just a rumour so don't quote me (on this or any other subject)