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Tarmac
-20th September 2003, 16:37
I reckon somebody'd already asked this but... the sabre mask with the plastic visor really reduces the target area - how it this legal? Or isn't it?
Doesn't seem very honourable to use one methinks...

Rdb811
-20th September 2003, 17:32
I think this has been argued ad infinitum over the years - the rules where changed to encourage their use and development and they don't make that much difference.to teh target area, in effect.

Tarmac
-20th September 2003, 17:55
I suppose it could be considered if it was a standard item...
but in sabre i would've thought it would make quite a difference, especially if you make a lot of head/ face hits.

Rdb811
-20th September 2003, 18:48
Not really due to the length of the blade - that's the receivedwisdom.

Tarmac
-20th September 2003, 18:50
hmmm.. 'wisdom';)

jamesthornton
-21st September 2003, 17:26
the likelyhood of just hitting the visor is so small that it isnt going to be a problem. and the fie are pushing for it to be used to make the sport more viewable on tv as the public want to see peoples facial expresions. theres a lot about it in escrime and the fie are also discounting some makes although some of them are lacking in quality.

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 17:37
Any sabruers actually using these?
Any info?
Actually do have to buy a new mask and if these are accepted i 'might' consider it but i need convincing... preferably not by someone who makes them.

aao
-21st September 2003, 17:49
Originally posted by jamesthornton
the likelyhood of just hitting the visor is so small that it isnt going to be a problem.

I just can't buy into that argument, especially as PBT's latest advert in Escrime magazine makes a big play on the fact that there is 30% less target area which is not insignificant.

I personally don't support the FIE's view on this at all wnd I think that putting up 50000euros of prize money at the worlds for the top placed fencers wearing the mask at sabre is nothing short of a disgrace bearing in mind the lack of funding in the sport in general. (I'm not against prize money but I do think it should be spread across the weapons and shouldn't be used as a bribe to make people wear a mask which hasn't proved popular at any other weapon)

jamesthornton
-21st September 2003, 17:54
im prety sure they are being accepted considering rhe f.i.e are giving 6000 euros to the fencer ranked highest wearing onw at the world championships. however they will only let you were some makes. which are:
negrini
pbt hungary
kft
leon paul
and gajardori 2

although my opinion may be biased if you look at the build quality the leon paul ones are the best then pbt. as with the normal ones.

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 17:55
Oh thank god for that i thought it ws just me!!!
I dunno about anybody else but i can aim for a small area on the body and if i choose i want to be able to hit the designated areas!! I know theres plenty of choice for a target but if i want to hit the face i blimmin well will!!!

jamesthornton
-21st September 2003, 17:56
if you look at the mask it doesnt equal a third of the target. and it is all to make the sport camera friendly.

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 17:57
Knickers.

Jambo
-21st September 2003, 18:00
Am I weird for actually liking them?! I have to admit to wanting one. And i think it will make the sport more watchable. Unless you have your name on your back you are more or less unidentifiable when fencing (maybe thats a good thing sometimes!!).

aao
-21st September 2003, 18:03
its a third of the front of the mask which is one of the primary target areas also the prizes are:

10000euros for the top placed fencer in both the mens and womens sabre

5000euros for the 2nd place

2500 euros each for joint third place

1000euros for pos 4-8


so thats 48000euros over the 2 weapons which is quite frrankly a massive massive waste. I just point to the fact that very very few of the top epeeists or foilists use these masks despite the fact that the Fie tried a similar trick with them a few years ago.

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 18:05
if they do become the thing to wear why don't the target areas change...?
gradings still use the old descriptions.... anywhere above the waist excluding the hands - oh and that small patch on the other fellas(ladies) mask..
why don't they just take the head away as a target area? (Rhetorical)

Jambo
-21st September 2003, 18:07
Very very few hits will land on the visor and miss everything else. In response to an earleir comment, I did hear that one got rejected by WC at one of the Coupes, dunno if its true.

aao
-21st September 2003, 18:11
so at 14 all in a world champs final one fencer hits the plastic visor, the hit doesn't register and his opponents does, I suppose he can be greatly consoled by the fact that statistically its unlikely to happen again for a while.......................

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 18:11
but. if you've attacked and hit the visor which slides off and contacts, say, the opponents arm - thats a huge timescale in which your opponent could hit you inbetween your hits.. if you know what i mean..
sabre is complicated/fast enough without adding any more grey areas.
if you could see through the mask AND make contact on it then i'd be first in line to one... but i ain't.

Jambo
-21st September 2003, 18:18
I suppose. Sometimes hits to the chest dont register either though. And thats with new, WC checked, kit.

And it would take the psychological game to new levels, could be interesting. Poker anyone?!

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 18:21
yeah. no need to make it more difficult see?:) maybe some kind of conductive layering over the top of the plastic could satisfy both sides of the argument... dunno what though
a very sparse mesh?

Jambo
-21st September 2003, 18:30
Dunno about the technicalities of it, but if it were possible wouldnt it have beenm done? A very sparse mesh would either not work or break very easily I would have thought.

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 18:35
probaly conduct as well as a piece of plastic eh?:grin:
i guess we'll just have to let those experts in R&D sort it out and let us mortals argue about the outcome:)

Jambo
-21st September 2003, 18:37
:grin:

Yeah, we're sabreurs....far too thick for such high thinking.

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 18:46
UG...HIT WITH STICK...:tongue:

reposte
-21st September 2003, 19:05
You're ignoring the fact that people don't like using them were target area's not an issue probably due to the fact
that they:
a) Make you look like a metal wielder
b) People just don't want their adversary to look them in the eye and see when they are about to strain and lunge, as some people show
it involuntarily.

P.S
I believe kft are PBT, no? And is there a web site for Gajardoni cause I can't find one...

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 19:09
We all wield metal... we just don't weld it:tongue:
And yes the whole poker face thing is also an issue...

reposte
-21st September 2003, 19:34
ja ja ja make fun of the foreign guy....:tongue: :moon:

Jambo
-21st September 2003, 19:36
Originally posted by Tarmac

And yes the whole poker face thing is also an issue...

That, other than the cost, is the main reason I havent got one (oh and i dont want to look like a poser, not good enough for that yet!). I wouldnt want someone to be able to see my face when I couldnt see theirs, even if my target area was smaller as a consequence.

Rdb811
-21st September 2003, 19:49
Actually, I've never been able to see anyone's face in a transparent mask due to the lighting.

Jambo
-21st September 2003, 19:55
Oh, I've never actually fenced anyone with one. You can see peoples faces from the sidelines though.

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 22:02
my mate jim's got one... its quite scary seeing his specs coming at you as he does a fleche...eyes burning with intent!!:eek:

Mantis
-21st September 2003, 22:28
Originally posted by Tarmac
my mate jim's got one... as he does a fleche...

Your mate has a sabre vision 2000 mask and he does a fleche? Surely shome mishtake. :grin:

Just for the record, the only problem I have is the target issue. Foil and epee, fine, but for sabre I don't think you can just cut a section out and say that you are 'unlikely' to hit there. Would you be happy if someone patched a small hole in his lame with a piece of ordinary (800N) material?

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 22:35
doh..he's a foilist of course!!:dizzy:
And no i'd be well p**sed!! But that's my point exactly..:grin:

Mantis
-21st September 2003, 22:50
Originally posted by Tarmac
doh..he's a foilist of course!!:dizzy:
And no i'd be well p**sed!! But that's my point exactly..:grin:

Yes, re-reading I see that you and I are both arguing the same side.

You also asked some time back if anyone is actually using these. From another thread on this argument, someone mentioned that Louise Bond-Williams is and likes them because, "in general she will get a couple of hits a fight on the mask that won't register".

(Not quite sure how to cross-reference here, but try this. (http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=267&perpage=15&pagenumber=4))

Tarmac
-21st September 2003, 22:56
Its just not cricket though eh?

Jambo
-22nd September 2003, 10:07
I'd say epee was closer to cricket :tongue:

Tarmac
-22nd September 2003, 10:19
you mean it takes forever and nothing really happens...?
i can't imagine how the very thought occurred?!:tongue:

Mantis
-22nd September 2003, 10:22
Originally posted by Tarmac
you mean it takes forever and nothing really happens...?

No, he means it is too sophisticated for the average cave troll to understand. ;)

Yes, I like epee AND cricket. Maybe they do go together after all.

Tarmac
-22nd September 2003, 10:23
get the net lads we've got a live one here!!!:tongue:

Jambo
-22nd September 2003, 11:58
Originally posted by Mantis
No, he means it is too sophisticated for the average cave troll to understand. ;)



Look at the tag under my name, I'm what you might call a below average cave troll, I think Tarmac had it right first time:tongue: