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FoilyDeath
-4th April 2007, 04:32
10th of April...anybody know who we're sending?

PM1
-4th April 2007, 21:31
Try this from the BFA site:
2007 World Junior & Cadet Championships GB Team

06 March 2007
The British team for the World Junior and Cadet Championships in Turkey in April 2007 will be:
JUNIOR
Womens Epee
Elisa ALBINI
Emma GIBSON
Corinna LAWRENCE
Mens Foil
Ed JEFFERIES
Marcus MEPSTEAD
Ahmed ROSOWSKY
Mens Sabre
Henry GANN
Stuart MARSHALL
ALEX O'CONNELL
Womens Sabre
Katie HENDRA

CADET
Mens Epee
Jonathan MAY
Gareth THOMAS
Ben WHITE (non-traveling reserve – Lloyd JEFFERSON)
Womens Epee
Elisa ALBINI
Rebecca CLARK
Corinna LAWRENCE (non-traveling reserve – Elizabeth HIGHTON)
Mens Foil
Peter BARWELL
Marcus MEPSTEAD
Husayn ROSOWSKY (non-traveling reserve – James DAVIS)
Womens Foil
Philippa MULLINS
Karine PAWEL
Catriona SIBERT (non-traveling reserve – Carolyn BENSON)
Mens Sabre
Dan BALDERSON
James HONEYBONE
Nat LEWIS (non-traveling reserve – Maiyuran RATNESWARAN)
Womens’ Sabre
Jessica DAVIES
Grace O’CONNELL
Sophie WILLIAMS (non-traveling reserve – Felicity KERR)

TEAM EVENTS
Womens Epee
Elisa ALBINI
Rebecca CLARK
Emma GIBSON
Corinna LAWRENCE
Mens Foil
Ed JEFFERIES
Marcus MEPSTEAD
Ahmed ROSOWSKY
Husayn ROSOWSKY
Mens Sabre
Henry GANN
James HONEYBONE
Stuart MARSHALL
ALEX O'CONNELL

OFFICIALS
Team Manager
Linda STRACHAN
Physiotherapist
Saskia BLAIR
Lead Epee Coach
Sue BENNEY
Lead Foil Coach
Pierre HARPER
Lead Sabre Coach
Neil BROWN
Personal Coaches
Peter WRIGHT
Mike MATTHEWS
Mark NELSON-GRIFFITHS
Jon SALFIELD

In accordance with British Fencing’s Olympic Pathway Plan and UK Sport funding, the Board and International Committee has agreed that fencers on the Olympic Pathway Programme will be selected for major championships providing but they cannot be selected to displace any fencer who has qualified under the relevant selection rules approved by the International Committee.

Good luck to them one and all, I say :rolling:

FoilyDeath
-4th April 2007, 22:12
Damn this stuff makes me miss UK fencing:(
So James Davis has made the team has he...Good job. The guy has wrecking havoc in the MF scene since he started competing. Apart from that, our MF team is looking strong. Not going to dominate, but should do well.

FencingChannel is providing coverage is anybody is interested, and are hoping to get streaming live coverage of most events.

pinkelephant
-4th April 2007, 23:04
Damn this stuff makes me miss UK fencing:(
So James Davis has made the team has he...Good job. The guy has wrecking havoc in the MF scene since he started competing. Apart from that, our MF team is looking strong. Not going to dominate, but should do well.



No - he's non-travelling reserve.

FoilyDeath
-5th April 2007, 09:42
He's still officially on the team. Just saying its nice to see some new blood instead of the same people I had been fencing in the nationals 5 or so years ago:P

pinkelephant
-5th April 2007, 10:27
I think you'll find if you ask anybody who has been in this position whether they have been "in the team" they will say no. My son has been in the "team" for the Junior/Cadet Worlds once, not twice. His "non-travelling reserve" for the Cadets doesn't even impinge on his consciousness.

FoilyDeath
-5th April 2007, 10:57
Oh fine. Just saying, its nice some recognition for his efforts. He's a great fencer, he puts his back into it, and unlike most other people on the cadet/junior scene he hasnt been doing this since he was 7. Not to impinge on on anybody else of course...all 3 of the rosowsky's are great fencers, and so is marcus. Just saying its nice.
And yeah, that didnt make much sense did it...oh well. Suffice to say I think its good he's getting some sort of recognition for kicking such large amount of ass, even if not much of it is overseas.

Foilling Around
-5th April 2007, 22:24
Just for information, most of the fencers are flying out either on Sunday or Monday.

I'm going to take my laptop and try to provide a Neil like service of results. In the absence of that I hope to do a texting service to some people.

website:-

http://www.escrime-belek2007.com/en/

Gangsta G
-6th April 2007, 01:16
In accordance with British Fencing’s Olympic Pathway Plan and UK Sport funding, the Board and International Committee has agreed that fencers on the Olympic Pathway Programme will be selected for major championships providing but they cannot be selected to displace any fencer who has qualified under the relevant selection rules approved by the International Committee.Good to see we're sending full teams in the juniors with the exception of WS. Just out of interest, does anyone know how many of the juniors selected didn't qualify through their international results?

Good luck one & all - the official website has gone straight into my favourites!

GG

pinkelephant
-6th April 2007, 08:02
Good to see we're sending full teams in the juniors with the exception of WS.
GG

No ME or WF at all in the Juniors.

Gangsta G
-6th April 2007, 09:15
No ME or WF at all in the Juniors.Oops! Must have been tired last night - just saw the lists of who we're sending and saw that most of them are of 3...

Boo Boo
-6th April 2007, 11:35
Oops! Must have been tired last night - just saw the lists of who we're sending and saw that most of them are of 3...

Sadly no. As PE said, no ME or WF at all :(

Good luck to EVERYONE going to Turkey to compete in the cadets and juniors - hope that your dedication and hard work delivers some fantastic results :)

Special best wishes to fencers from the South West :)

Boo

Keith.A.Smith
-6th April 2007, 20:58
Dear GB Team,

Good luck to all of you in Turkey. I am travelling out Saturday via Istanbul and will see you all out there as I one of the FIE organising the referees.


I look forward to seeing great GBR results.

Best wishes,

Keith

free spirit
-8th April 2007, 23:02
To All fencers qualified and PARENTS who have supported the qualified fencers:

Well done! Best Wishes....Enjoy and hope you will be able to do your best to make the most of it.

Foilling Around
-9th April 2007, 10:38
Hi All!

Well I'm sitting in the Starbucks at Heathrow waiting for the 30 minute delayed flight to Turkey. Hope that is not an omen for the 5 days to come!!

This could be the first of regular blogs from my section of the trip or it could be a one off it depends on the wireless access. The hotel website says modem point in the room so I am not that hopeful. It may have to be an end of day report.

Surfice to say that all those travelling today have turned up in good spirits and are currently wandering the duty free!!

I will try to post again tonight when I get to the Hotel.

Bye

Paul

Yorkie
-9th April 2007, 13:18
Good luck to all out on Turkey. Let's kick some foreign ass!!

Spider5
-9th April 2007, 13:45
Good luck to all out on Turkey. Let's kick some foreign ass!!

Yup, time to put the boot in the booty. Good luck to everyone.

Neil Brown
-9th April 2007, 16:28
First group of fencers all here OK, no problems.

Limited wireless network coverage from the 2 main sports halls (there are 5), good coverage from the hotel foyer which is not far away so some reporting will be possible.

WS on at 8:30 tomorrow, MF at 10:30 (Turkey is 2 hours ahead of the UK).

We don't know what the event web site will be like yet.

Lee Spiers
-9th April 2007, 16:38
best of luck.

Crimson Blade
-9th April 2007, 16:46
Good luck!

Unicorn
-9th April 2007, 16:57
i hope everyone has a good time! GO EMMA!! best of luck to you all! xx

Crimson Blade
-9th April 2007, 16:59
Happy birthday Ben!

madfencer
-9th April 2007, 17:56
Good luck to all, especially Corinna Lawrence :)

GKB
-9th April 2007, 21:04
:thumbs_up Good Luck and Happy Fencing, Jess, Soph and Grace ;)

Goodwood
-9th April 2007, 22:42
Good luck to all

tigger
-10th April 2007, 07:14
WS pools:
grace 2 up, 3 down
sophie 1 up, 4 down
jess 3 up, 2 down

tigger
-10th April 2007, 08:13
sophie out
grace fences hirose (jap) in 64
jess has bye to 32

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 08:42
Watching from the stands - Grace about to fight - Hirose JPN

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 08:50
At the break 8-7 ahead come back from 1-5 down

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 08:55
Grace Wins 15-11 into L32 from 38th seed!!!!

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 08:59
next round of ws in about an hour

going bto see mf poules now - out of wireless range

GKB
-10th April 2007, 09:04
Well done Grace !! Wonderful result ! Good luck to both you and Jess in the 32. :thumbs_up

O*N
-10th April 2007, 09:53
Amazing to see yet another big tournament in Turkey - the Senior Europeans in Izhmir last year and the Universidiades there before that, as well as the Istanbul MS WC which seems to be becoming a regular fixture.

Their approach to the sport seems to be hosting a lot of international fencing tournaments at huge expense to themselves and hopefully this will magically produce good fencers. Interesting to see if this will ever pay off for them or will the money run out first...

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 10:02
Sorry folks - Jessica Davies out 15 - 8 in L32

Grace fights in 15 mins

MF so far in poules

Husayn 4 up in poule of 7
Marcus finished 4 up 1 down in poule of 6
Peter 2 up 3 down in poule of 7

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 10:11
Grace on piste now wow 8 - 3 up against Tailland FRA at the break

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 10:18
Great fight by Grace brilliant result won 15:13 into the L16!

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 10:21
Back on piste in 25 minutes or less

Lee Spiers
-10th April 2007, 10:22
is there not some website that gives live results?

Lee Spiers
-10th April 2007, 10:22
well done!!!

Australian
-10th April 2007, 10:25
is there not some website that gives live results?

www.fencingforum.com



Paul,

Could you try and find some aussie results?

Cadet MF: Ben TALBOT-WRIGHT

silvercross
-10th April 2007, 10:27
The official tournament website seems to have forgotten how to do live results (money being thrown into doing an event like this in a fancy beach resort city, but can they do a live results webpage? noooooo...)

There was a weblink on the fie website that was going to have live results posted, but the fie website's been down all morning.

Thankfully we get to read about it here, though :).

silvercross
-10th April 2007, 10:31
GOT IT!


http://www.fie.ch/External%5FData/

The website might be down, but getting the cached page and finding the link there are now live(ish) results on this page!

Spider5
-10th April 2007, 10:43
GOT IT!


http://www.fie.ch/External%5FData/

The website might be down, but getting the cached page and finding the link there are now live(ish) results on this page!

All I got was service unavailable. :mad:

silvercross
-10th April 2007, 11:00
Seems to be working when it wants and how it wants. When I tried it, it was ACTUALLY showing the live results of WS DE's....

grumble grumble grumble.......ranting

hokers
-10th April 2007, 11:27
Link working again now:

Final positions (I think, it's in french):

16 O'CONNELL Grace GBR (out to NIKULINA Viktoriya 15/7)
25 DAVIES Jessica GBR (out to LEE Ra Jin 15/8)
44 WILLIAMS Sophie GBR

MF after poules:

5 ROSOWSKY Husayn GBR 1.000 13 30 qualifié
18 MEPSTEAD Marcus GBR 0.800 7 20 qualifié
40 BARWELL Peter GBR 0.500 1 23 qualifié

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 11:39
OK - can't video and post at the same time I'm afraid

Grace went out 8 - 15 in the last 16. A great effort by her.

MF

Husayn won all 6 and is seeded 5th
Marcus 4 up 1 down seeded 18th
Peter 3 up 3 down seeded 40th

So all made the cut comfortably

Seems to be at least an hour until the L64 fights take place so I am sitting in the atrium of the hotel eating my lunch

Just to paint you all a picture of this place. It is a massive complex with a big hotel bit and lots of upmarket chalet type things in the grounds

I can see the "rounds hall" from by bedroom window and the "DE Hall" is directly below the atrium I am posting from now.

It is a bit difficult to realise that you are at a fencing event when you are in beachside resort. (For those old enough to remember the Kings Lynn and Hunstanton Open it is a little like that only much more up market.)

Although it is billed as a 5 star resort, I would say that the room are really high end of 3 star. The facilities are thing which probably gives it its five stars.

There are 4 swimming pools, but 2 of the outdoor ones are not filled and the fencers who have not fenced yet have been banned from doing anything more than a dip so they don't risk injury and they cannot sunbath to avoid heat stroke (What do you think this is a holiday!!)

This will probably be my best day of posting as I will probably be doing some coaching with daughter tommorrow and I will certainly be too nervous to post as I go along on Thursday.

I'll post gain soon, but I had better put the laptop on charge first!

3 Card Trick
-10th April 2007, 11:44
Perservere with the Live Link. It is only flaky, or for those as old as me, a bit like a crystal radio set.:whistle:

pinkelephant
-10th April 2007, 11:55
Looks like it's going down every time a hit is scored.

pinkelephant
-10th April 2007, 11:57
No - I'm wrong. (It does happen sometimes - but don't tell 3CT I said so.)

Tubby
-10th April 2007, 11:57
My browser refreshes with every hit, so not going down. Don't know why I'm blessed.

tigger
-10th April 2007, 12:08
great fight from grace in L32: 13-8 down and won 15-13!

Boo Boo
-10th April 2007, 12:11
Well done to Grace and the girls.

Very good luck to the boys in their DEs :mexwave:

Thanks for the updates Paul. My personal theory is that someone in the FIE has a very nice holiday home in Turkey... that's why all the big tournaments are going there...

Boo

Australian
-10th April 2007, 12:15
Marcus is on

3-1 up already against BABAOGLU T. TUR

Steve
-10th April 2007, 12:28
Marcus is on...
...and he's won 10-3

Seems to be on fire today! :thumbs_up

Spider5
-10th April 2007, 12:50
Looks like Husayn Rosowsky went out 15-3 to the 60th seed (Nikolaos Kontochristopoulos). Ouch.

Tubby
-10th April 2007, 12:55
www.fencingforum.com (http://www.fencingforum.com)



Paul,

Could you try and find some aussie results?

Cadet MF: Ben TALBOT-WRIGHT Your mate is on now and is struggling.

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 13:27
Marcus is the only one still in - he fenced very inteligently and patiently to win his L64 fight.

Husayn was the same hyperactive fencer as in the poules, this can make him devastating at times, but his radar and timing were off against the Greek. Shame, he was on fire in the poules.

Peter went down 9:15 (I think) - had weapon problems and had to do the second half of the fight with one of Marcus' foils. He put his heart and soul into it, and just about kept himself in touch with the Latvian up to 9:12 then it went away from him.

Remembe that both boys who are out have another year in the age group. There are things that both Husayn and Peter can take away from today and come back stronger next year.

Spider5
-10th April 2007, 14:04
Marcus is the only one still in - he fenced very inteligently and patiently to win his L64 fight.

Husayn was the same hyperactive fencer as in the poules, this can make him devastating at times, but his radar and timing were off against the Greek. Shame, he was on fire in the poules.

Peter went down 9:15 (I think) - had weapon problems and had to do the second half of the fight with one of Marcus' foils. He put his heart and soul into it, and just about kept himself in touch with the Latvian up to 9:12 then it went away from him.

Remembe that both boys who are out have another year in the age group. There are things that both Husayn and Peter can take away from today and come back stronger next year.

Thanks for the updates - we appreciate them. :thumbs_up

Yorkie
-10th April 2007, 14:09
I agree! Thanks to all out there keeping us posted back in the motherland. For those of us bored to tears trying to finish postgrad assignments the distraction is VERY, very welcome. Good luck to Marcus.. keep it up!!

Spider5
-10th April 2007, 15:01
Marcus is out 15-12. Good experience for all of them though I hope.

Rock 'N' Ripost
-10th April 2007, 15:33
Well done to Grace and the girls.

Very good luck to the boys in their DEs :mexwave:

Thanks for the updates Paul. My personal theory is that someone in the FIE has a very nice holiday home in Turkey... that's why all the big tournaments are going there...

Boo


wel dun gracey-thats a very good frenchie she beat-last four (or better) in logrono i believe. :thumbs_up:

madfencer
-10th April 2007, 20:07
Well done to all who competed in the WS and MF and thanks to Paul et al for the updates! :) Good luck to all competing in MS, WF, ME and WE over the next few days :) madfencer

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 20:12
Final Update of the day

Rebecca Ward won the WS at a canter

Miyake JPN who put out Marcus, won the MF. He made the semi-finalist and, I understand, the finalist look more ordinary than he made Made Marcus look. (clumsy way of saying Marcus was very unlucky to get him so early and Marcus would probably have taken out most of the rest of the field the way he was fencing)

Crimson Blade
-10th April 2007, 20:16
Well done to all competitors! Good luck in the epee!

Unicorn
-10th April 2007, 20:25
wooo! yeah go the epeeists! best of luck to Emma Gibson who goes to my club xx

Foilling Around
-10th April 2007, 21:19
For those who don't know

Tomorrow

MS at 8.30am (6.30 your time)

WE at 10.30am (8.30 your time)

grs
-10th April 2007, 22:03
:thumbs_up
Thanks for the updates Paul. Very useful for PDQ info.

Good luck to all who are about to Fence. Well done to ME and WS competitors.
:mexwave:

madfencer
-11th April 2007, 00:08
Well done to ME and WS competitors.


MF and WS you mean :nanananan

Stephen Chivers
-11th April 2007, 07:56
Shocked to see Glueboy has been cut, but at least he will have another chance next year. Two tough Hungarians for Dan and Nat but they can both do it. Best of luck!

pinkelephant
-11th April 2007, 08:06
But why oh why were there pools of 5 and 6? There were 70 fencers - isn't that 10 pools of 7? Even the rule book says pools should be 7, leaving out any idea of common sense.

Stephen Chivers
-11th April 2007, 08:36
There were 72 sabreurs present so I imagine the organisers felt 12 poules of six was better than 6 poules of seven and 5 poules of six. The two Kuwaitis scratched, presumably after the draw.

Dan is only 7:8 down at the break - great performance!

Stephen Chivers
-11th April 2007, 08:43
Seb Puy beat Dan 15:11 and Nat is 8:7 up at the break against Iliasz. Go Nat!

Stephen Chivers
-11th April 2007, 08:49
A great win for Nat, 15:14 against a very strong comeback by Iliasz from 10:13 down to 14:13 up. So now it's Szabo in the L32!

3 Card Trick
-11th April 2007, 09:18
There were 72 sabreurs present


The website is only showing placings down to 70. Now it is even more confusing.

Stephen Chivers
-11th April 2007, 09:59
Nat's hanging in there, 5:8 down at the break.

Stephen Chivers
-11th April 2007, 10:03
Nat lost 15:6 - Szabo must have stepped up a gear in the second period.


The website is only showing placings down to 70. Now it is even more confusing.Since the two Kuwaitis scratched they do not appear on the placings.

Yorkie
-11th April 2007, 10:16
Anything from the epeeists yet??

Lynne
-11th April 2007, 10:18
The website says "SOON" ! :rolleyes:

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2007, 10:21
Well done to all the sabreurs! And everyone who has fenced so far.
Who thought waiting for Epee results would be this tense?!
Good luck everyone, especially Corinna x
P.F.

Lynne
-11th April 2007, 10:29
Corinna Lawrence 5/6

Elisa Albini 4/6

Jade Clarke 1/5 (one scratched from poule)

Boo Boo
-11th April 2007, 10:58
A great win for Nat, 15:14 against a very strong comeback by Iliasz from 10:13 down to 14:13 up. So now it's Szabo in the L32!

Well done Nat, fantastic! Very well deserved :thumbs_up (wonder if all those extra layers in training helped...).

:mexwave:

Good luck to the Women Epeeists in their DEs.

Boo

The Great Four.
-11th April 2007, 11:04
Any ME results?

Tubby
-11th April 2007, 11:10
Not today ....

Tubby
-11th April 2007, 11:14
Alisa ranked 21, on at 1:10 pm local time.
Corrina ranked 12, on at 1:35 pm

GOOD LUCK GIRLS!!!!!

Boo Boo
-11th April 2007, 11:25
Alisa ranked 21, on at 1:10 pm local time.
Corrina ranked 12, on at 1:35 pm

GOOD LUCK GIRLS!!!!!

Drawn to meet in the L32, when they get there...

Boo

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2007, 11:38
All that way for one to put the other out. Could have guessed it couldn't you!! Good luck getting to the 32 girls. Not long now.....

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2007, 12:00
Elisa beat Myskova 15-9
Corinna beat Ma 15-10
Will now fence each other in the 32 at 15.15 local time. (13.15 GMT)

Tubby
-11th April 2007, 12:33
Chalk up another L16 (at least)

Australian
-11th April 2007, 13:22
It's on.

Corinna ahead 7-6 so far.

Edit: now 9-9

edit: 11-10 Corinna now


Finishes 15-11 to Corinna!

Tubby
-11th April 2007, 13:25
Good luck in the 16 Corinna. Unlucky Elisa.

Tubby
-11th April 2007, 13:31
Corinna's next fight is against the 5th seed, Briasco of Italy. 16:40 local time. Lets hope its a Man U (Corinna) v Roma result.

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2007, 13:36
Great analogy! It could only be a Liverpool supporter to suggest that she should be more like Liverpool than Man U (because we all know that Liverpool are going to win the competition. Again!)
I know she'll forgive me for that!

Foilling Around
-11th April 2007, 14:08
Sitting watching the fight before Corinna's and getting a good vantage point to film from. The GBR vs GBR fight was horrible to watch, not because the fencing was awful, but because it was just so flat. We couldn't cheer, just politely clap each hit.

For those who have not been out to one of these Championships before (and I myself am a World Champs Virgin) it is difficult to descibe how tight the margins are between success and failure.

So much of this game out here is mental and I cannot say that out domestic circuit prepares the fencers for this intensity of competition at all.

I will try to post in the fight breaks as I will be filming.

Incidentally, if/when Corinna wins she will have Briasco ITA at about 17.40 (15.40 your time)

Tubby
-11th April 2007, 14:08
Great analogy! It could only be a Liverpool supporter to suggest that she should be more like Liverpool than Man U (because we all know that Liverpool are going to win the competition. Again!)
I know she'll forgive me for that!Oooh you don't know how much it hurt for me to write that analogy. I chewed through my bottom lip. The mighty red machine now needs to finish off the job against the Dutch for us to have a go at repeating our Champion's League victory over Chelsea. We may be 3 up but its never good counting one's chickens...

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2007, 14:13
Thanks Paul. Its good to get the final score, but its so much better to understand how it roughly panned out. The ups and downs of a fight.
All fingers (and toes) crossed for Corinna now. I know how well she can handle the pressure, its just the belief in herself to go and win it!
Ooooo, who would have thought Epee could be so tense??

Foilling Around
-11th April 2007, 14:23
Ooooo, who would have thought Epee could be so tense??

Certainly not me, I keep waiting for them to split the double lights!!!!

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2007, 14:26
With a nice hot warm Turkish climate and a sports hall, plus not to mention a nice sit down, how can anyone watch an entire Epee fight without nodding off? That is a skill!

Foilling Around
-11th April 2007, 14:30
Here we go entering the arena to a fanfare of music!

Foilling Around
-11th April 2007, 14:30
With a nice hot warm Turkish climate and a sports hall, plus not to mention a nice sit down, how can anyone watch an entire Epee fight without nodding off? That is a skill!


Air conditioning!!

Foilling Around
-11th April 2007, 14:36
Very cagey needs to be more careful 5:7 down at the first break

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2007, 14:38
Ah technology. Where would we be without it.
I can't imagine how exciting/tense it is there!

Foilling Around
-11th April 2007, 14:44
Bit of a problem witha cancelled hit, not sure why 11:13 down at second beak.

Fencing well but Briasco is making Corinnna do all the work.

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2007, 14:45
Jesus this is going to be close

Foilling Around
-11th April 2007, 14:53
Too close and went the wrong way.

C got 3 hits in a row to go 14:13 up then B started to push her backwards - a complete change of tactics.

Unfortunalty it worked and Corinna lost the next two hits to go down 14:15.

All those who are related to her, know her or have even seen her in passing can be very proud of her effort and skill level.

Plymouth Fencer
-11th April 2007, 15:00
Oh no. So so close. I bet she must be really upset. But to come back to lead from that score is testament to her ability. Another day, a different outcome I'm sure. So unlucky.
Thanks Paul. You've been great.
If you see Crin to speak to, could you do me a huge favour and tell her I'm very proud of her and thinking about her. (by the way, my name's Jake, not sure she'd understand if you called me Plymouth Fencer!)
Thanks

Tubby
-11th April 2007, 15:01
Thanks Paul, much appreciated you keeping us updated. Live update was not working for me off the FIE site.

Sorry it went the wrong way Corinna, we were all pulling for you and are gutted that you just missed out.

I see you as a role model for our next crop of cadets. Good luck in the Juniors.

Boo Boo
-11th April 2007, 15:50
Well done to everyone today.

Best of luck to Karine, Catriona, Philippa and the Men's Epeeists tomorrow :)

:mexwave:

Boo

Louis CB
-11th April 2007, 16:30
Good luck to Jonnie, Gareth and Ben - happy belated birthday to Ben as well!

madfencer
-11th April 2007, 19:25
Well done to Corrinna, hard luck on that fight though, sounded very tense and good to watch.

Plymouth Fencer: Hey Jake, good to see you round here, it's Helen from Guernsey! :) Long time no see (BYCs sabre this year I think), how are you? Have sent you a message :)

Good luck to all fencing in the other weapons later on :)

Crimson Blade
-11th April 2007, 19:29
Good luck to all, especially Ben!!!

rpryer
-12th April 2007, 09:09
Cadet Women's Foil

Seeding after pools:

=20 Catriona (4 up 2 down) - promoted
49 Philippa (2 up 4 down) - promoted
57 Karine (1 up 5 down) - eliminated

Catriona faces Kwon of Korea at 11.35 local time, and Philippa faces Meikle of France at 11.55.

Cadet Men's Sabre

There are no results yet on the FIE site.

rpryer
-12th April 2007, 09:47
Catriona out 15-9.

rpryer
-12th April 2007, 10:05
And now Philippa is out - 15-4.

Lynne
-12th April 2007, 11:07
Men's Epee Rankings after the poules
Gareth Thomas 4/6 22nd
Ben White 3/5 38th
Jonathan Ma 2/6 64th

All qualified for DE

Lynne
-12th April 2007, 11:10
128

May faces 65th Seed WATSON USA

Thomas and White have Byes to the 64

Louis CB
-12th April 2007, 12:38
Jonathan out 15-10. Hard luck, Jon - very bad draw to get the winner of the Goteborg A-Grade in the 128...

Gareth out to James Kaull (USA) 15-8 in 64

Ben has Lambert (CAN) to fence in about five minutes...

rpryer
-12th April 2007, 13:14
Ben lost 15-14.

Boo Boo
-12th April 2007, 13:16
Comiserations to everyone on what sounds like a tough day.

Good luck to everyone tomorrow. Who is fencing tomorrow?

Boo

Lynne
-12th April 2007, 17:13
Men's Epee GBR Final positions

Gareth Thomas 38
Ben White 45
Jonathan May 67

Women's Foil Final positions

Catriona Sibert 34
Phillippa Mullins 49
Karine Pawel 57

UglyBug
-12th April 2007, 17:52
Comiserations to everyone on what sounds like a tough day.

Good luck to everyone tomorrow. Who is fencing tomorrow?

Boo

Katie Hendra (U20 sabre) and the Junior Men's Foilists

Foilling Around
-12th April 2007, 21:55
Katie Hendra (U20 sabre) and the Junior Men's Foilists

They are Marcus Mepstead, Ed Jeffries and Ahmed Rosowsky

I am checking out from Belek as I fly home tomorrow.

Today has been a bit flat as a number of poule performances gave a lot of promise. Unfortunately they did not achieve what we know they can.

madfencer
-13th April 2007, 00:01
Comiserations to the fencers if any of them are disappointed with their results. This was obviously a very tough competition! Good luck to all fencing tomorrow...erm today! :rolling:

rugmike
-13th April 2007, 01:58
A fantastic standard - the best at their best, but with the odd twist !

Had to get home to get results - Nat & Dan forgot to find out.

MS results seem to have slipped off the radar, so :-

Nat - 29th
Dan - 50th
James - 57th

Thanks to those Forum good wishes, only just read.

AND.... a huge thanks to the "GBR Support Action Front " on the spot, their fantastic backing was top job. (It was only beaten by the entire Turkish nation shouting, singing and dancing for their guy, and only possibly equalled by the 3 Georgian ladies who did for about 3 eardrums a hit for Bakhsoliani !)
After Nat de-levitated himself to earth on getting the decider on Iliasz, he did about the biggest salute I've ever seen, in their direction.Great stuff, well done all.

And, well done to all Cadets, speshly them women whackers! - look forard to the J's from yer at home.

And yes, Boo, we reckon it did, but it has worn out the washing machine !

PS - very impressed with video appeal biz - apart from nearly dying when Nat used it (successfully) - and how quicker it was than rugby or cricket, especially the ref's own use of his/hers.

Neil Brown
-13th April 2007, 08:14
Katie won 2 in the pool & fences Budna (POL) in the 64 at 10:45.

The results are up to date on the event web site now, not keeping the fight scores up to date at the moment but may later.

MF pools have started.

rpryer
-13th April 2007, 09:29
Katie is out - 15-10.

rugmike
-13th April 2007, 10:00
Some good ones in the English lists, a few quite tricky to get - any help appreciated !
Some may be because the translation may represent a Turkish rudery ?

First, why Canada (CAN) should be EDGE beats me, Edgeware not having declared independence to my knowledge.

And Greece (GRE) transmutating into LIKING, which may be true, but a bit fey for the descendants of Alexander the Great.

Then there is Belgium (BEL), which becomes BEAUTIFUL, which has a nice logic, actually, from "belle" - whatever you may think personally of the scenery or wine - and a dead cert for the tourist brochures.

And the identity-challenged America (USA) obviously needs help in distinguishing itself from any imposters with "The USA".

But the biscuit definitely goes to the classification lists, no question.

Here we find the renowned VINCENT COUTURIER morphed into.... yes, you're possibly getting into this now......VINCENT DRESSMAKER.

And, in a development that Nat will certainly find great glee in discussing with him, old adversary over many years PASCAL MERLE makes a huge leap into the unknown as PASCAL BLACKBIRD.

I think our lads got off scot-free, frankly, 'cos I could have made a thing or two from Balderson, I'm sure, and Nat would obviously have joined the insect world. What the hell they'd have made of Honeybone if their hearts were really in it, I dread to think !!

AND I haven't had a chance to go through the other weapons yet, perhaps more delights await us there !

rugmike
-13th April 2007, 10:01
Katie is out - 15-10.

Bugger !!!!

UglyBug
-13th April 2007, 12:03
What's the story on the MF? Anyone through to the L64?

DonnCarnage
-13th April 2007, 12:29
Marcus is out 15-12. Good experience for all of them though I hope.

That type of mentality is the exact reason why britian has done so crap so far in this tournament. Foil was a huge disapointment but i sure there will be lots of excuses when they come back...

P.S. Mens junior Sabre not included in the above statment but i guessing it will be the same outcome for every other weapon.

rpryer
-13th April 2007, 12:37
What's the story on the MF? Anyone through to the L64?

Ed is in the 64. Ahmed lost his 128 fight, Marcus didn't make it through the pools.

Baldric
-13th April 2007, 12:40
That type of mentality is the exact reason why britian has done so crap so far in this tournament. Foil was a huge disapointment but i sure there will be lots of excuses when they come back...


Hi DonnCarnage

In some ways, I agree with you, we do have a funny approach to performances that are less than we would have hoped for.

However, you should remember that some of the competitors are still only 15 or 16 yrs old, and a public forum is probably not the place to be dissecting their performance.

I don't know who you are, and what you have achieved in your life. Have you ever managed to qualify for the world champs in anything? I haven't and I am full of admiration for those that have, and sympathetic if they achieved less at the worlds than they might have hoped.

If you want to discuss the poor way that our cadet and junior system is structured, particularly in foil, and how we might improve it that would be a different matter.

Baldric

DonnCarnage
-13th April 2007, 12:48
hmmm... I am the older brother of the two rosowsky boys.

I gave up fencing in my final year of junoirs (due to pursuing a career in trading) though i still managed to end the year rank 2nd in the junior rankings. But thats neither hear nor there.

Baldric
-13th April 2007, 13:05
hmmm... I am the older brother of the two rosowsky boys.

I gave up fencing in my final year of junoirs (due to pursuing a career in trading) though i still managed to end the year rank 2nd in the junior rankings. But thats neither hear nor there.

Then you have a pretty good idea why we get the results that we do.

Regardless of how your brothers might feel when they read your post (thats between you and them) I still think that you might want to think harder before posting material that could be read as harsh criticism of very young competitors.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned earlier, I do have some sympathy for what I think is your core point. Instead of saying "oh well, good experience for them" we should be saying "what the hell is wrong with our system that we so woefully prepare our talented and committed young fencers to cope with international competition".

However, that should not be read as any criticism of the fencers themselves, their coaches their parents or other supporters, for whom I have nothing but admiration.

Baldric
(Ray Stafford)

Spider5
-13th April 2007, 13:13
That type of mentality is the exact reason why britian has done so crap so far in this tournament. Foil was a huge disapointment but i sure there will be lots of excuses when they come back...

P.S. Mens junior Sabre not included in the above statment but i guessing it will be the same outcome for every other weapon.


I've met people who always have excuses as to why they didn't perform well, injured, bad floor, cheating opponent and the absolute favourite of British fencers - crap refeering. I dislike that culture of excuse making as much as you seem to.

However, the hope I expressed in my earlier post (with respect to the individual MF) was that they can derive some realistic reasons as to why they seemed to perform poorly at that competition and, with their coaches and clubmates, do something constructive about it.

I haven't qualified for a world champs at anything either but I would imagine that the mental pressure in those situations is one of the bigger factors and something that all British sport is historically poor at addressing.

So, have you any constructive suggestions?

rpryer
-13th April 2007, 14:08
Ed is now out - 15-11.

rugmike
-13th April 2007, 16:01
That type of mentality is the exact reason why britian has done so crap so far in this tournament. Foil was a huge disapointment but i sure there will be lots of excuses when they come back...

P.S. Mens junior Sabre not included in the above statment but i guessing it will be the same outcome for every other weapon.

Alright, I've got a vested interest, and in only one weapon, but I do hope you mean Junior Cadet Mens Sabre, (Junior Men's not done yet) and include Junior Cadet Womens Sabre too, with 16, 24, and 44. Not too crappy there.
And there were an awful lot of "big" names in both languishing down the lower reaches - de Vuyst and Merle in the Men's for example.

No, we didn't get a 1,2,3, but nor did anyone else.

I was there for the Mens Sabre, and I can tell you it was a whole different game, skill and pressure-wise.

I think if I were you I'd tread a bit carefully around your brothers for a while, and engage brain before keypad next time you come up with a soundbite so soon after the event.

(Oh, and a bit of spelling revision wouldn't be a bad idea.)

Baldric
-13th April 2007, 16:19
No, we didn't get a 1,2,3, but nor did anyone else.


errrrr.....surely someone came 1st, 2nd and 3rd? :whistle:

Spider5
-13th April 2007, 16:50
errrrr.....surely someone came 1st, 2nd and 3rd? :whistle:

Not from the same nation.......

Spider5
-13th April 2007, 17:05
Alright, I've got a vested interest, and in only one weapon, but I do hope you mean Junior Cadet Mens Sabre, (Junior Men's not done yet) and include Junior Cadet Womens Sabre too, with 16, 24, and 44. Not too crappy there.
And there were an awful lot of "big" names in both languishing down the lower reaches - de Vuyst and Merle in the Men's for example.

No, we didn't get a 1,2,3, but nor did anyone else.

I was there for the Mens Sabre, and I can tell you it was a whole different game, skill and pressure-wise.

I think if I were you I'd tread a bit carefully around your brothers for a while, and engage brain before keypad next time you come up with a soundbite so soon after the event.

(Oh, and a bit of spelling revision wouldn't be a bad idea.)

Do you think the difference in skill level was the biggest factor affecting performance or the increased pressure of the event? Surely being exposed to both has got to place all these guys in a better place for learning how to deal with it at future big events? $64 million question is what is the best strategy for training our young fencers how to deal with that type of pressure?

rugmike
-13th April 2007, 18:13
errrrr.....surely someone came 1st, 2nd and 3rd? :whistle:



Tee hee, nice one Balders !!

DonnCarnage
-13th April 2007, 20:21
I think if I were you I'd tread a bit carefully around your brothers for a while, and engage brain before keypad next time you come up with a soundbite so soon after the event.



Since when do brothers have to 'tread a bit carefully' around each other?

Let me explain why I posted in the first place. I was dissapointed by constantly hearing 'better luck next time', 'good experience', 'you tried your best, thats what really counts', etc. So instead of following the mainstream voices I decided to voice what i thought was an unbiased look on the situation. Comming in the Last 64, unless you are a 14 year old, means nothing. Getting a L32 only counts as a good result when concerning future potential.

I most certainly didnt say any fencer was 'crap', only that there result was 'crappy' and to say otherwise is to insult their fencing ability (or one should hope that would be the case).

I don't offer suggestions or solutions as I belive, for foil anyway, that they are already in place. Keith Smith is doing a good job in supporting the furture fencers of tommorrow, alongside building a firm structure for fencers who have real potential and hunger for success. Time is all thats needed.

Oh, and rugmike, a little more maturity when posting please. This isn't a school yard where you can throw insults around. Regardless of your intention, your comments were not appreciated.

rugmike
-13th April 2007, 23:01
Perhaps easier by numbers :-
1) I thought, as Balders also suggested, that your comments might not be appreciated greatly by those who had just given their all - your bro's among them. So I'd have thought that seems a pretty good time for bro's to tread carefully - unless you did not include them in your comments, of course, but just all the rest. Or perhaps the bro's agree with you - I don't know. nor wish to know. if that's so. But I don't think a lot of the "rest" would.
2) Achieving the position of being in the 64 best U-17 fencers in the world would, at least in our club, and among all the fencers I know, mean a fair bit, even at 15 , 16, or heaven forbid, 17. But you say this means nothing unless they're 14. Strange - and an interesting motivational aid to improve.
60th in the World's ? Sorry, don't mean a thing, clear off .
3) I think most would agree making a L32 in a World Championship is a Good Result full stop. I repeat, that means you're one of the 32 best U-17 fencers in the world. But you say that is also worthless - unless it points to further potential. Now that could be interesting - who makes 17th but has no further potential, and 31st but with huge potential ? Ah, perhaps its age again - 17th at age 15, worthless ; 31st at 14+ - terrific !
4)Fine, and I hope it works out, in all seriousness, for all weapons - regardless of age.
5) My quip at the end was
a) factual
b) an attempt at a little levity to lighten my
uncharacteristic vein of gritty critical opinion.
c) the use of the Forum as a medium of free expression, communication, and at times opinionated criticism , calling for and expecting, a response. Yup, pretty much like a school yard (not a colonial, are you, just out of interest - I was about to put play ground!) [joke]
d) "My intention" - yes, as an interested party - was to make you aware that your comments were possibly not appreciated by everyone who made a 64 , 32, or 16, at too late an age - including perhaps, as above, your bro's among them - the coaches who got them there, the parents who supported and gave up a lot to help them get there, and those who felt it was worthwhile encouraging the whole lot to do so.
Had you made a Worlds at the age of your bro's, do you think you'd get encouragement from your remarks ?

Here endeth the epistle. Sorry everyone.

P.S. Amer Khataybeh = Landmark Khataybeh - and I'm still just on sabre !

Baldric
-13th April 2007, 23:38
I don't offer suggestions or solutions as I belive, for foil anyway, that they are already in place. Keith Smith is doing a good job in supporting the furture fencers of tommorrow, alongside building a firm structure for fencers who have real potential and hunger for success. Time is all thats needed.


Much of what you say, I agree with. However, I have to take issue with this paragraph.

I am not against what Keith and Graham are doing, in fact, I am broadly supportive. But they are really nowhere close to having everything in place for the future fencers of tomorrow.

The system for cadet foil (both M and F) in this country is lamentable. MF is particularly bad, with 13 yr old fencers forced into adult competition long before they are physically ready, young cadets sent abroad with completely inadequate support, a total lack of any form of planned training, paucity of information and a cavalier disregard for the fencer or their parents.

WF is a bit better, largely thanks to the personal efforts of Foiling Around, but still has many of the same structural problems.

Epee (ME at least) seems to be better, and I think that sabre is the best organised.

Keith and Graham have done some great work, but much still remains to be done. In particular, Foil needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Regards

Baldric

Tubby
-14th April 2007, 08:14
Henry out 10-15

Tubby
-14th April 2007, 08:39
Let me explain why I posted in the first place. I was dissapointed by constantly hearing 'better luck next time', 'good experience', 'you tried your best, thats what really counts', etc. So instead of following the mainstream voices I decided to voice what i thought was an unbiased look on the situation. Comming in the Last 64, unless you are a 14 year old, means nothing. Getting a L32 only counts as a good result when concerning future potential.

I most certainly didnt say any fencer was 'crap', only that there result was 'crappy' and to say otherwise is to insult their fencing ability (or one should hope that would be the case).
I understand where Yas is coming from. He (and I'm guessing) would see our words of consolation from a different perspective, that of a young fencer hearing the same words when he and his parents were busting a nut to get round the country and Europe putting in the hard yards and in his eyes, coming up short at the big comps. Why should he apologise for having ambition for the cadets/juniors? If I was at the Worlds I shouldn't be thinking, "oh I'd love a L64 and brilliant if its a L32", it should be "I can win this" and when I don't be bitterly disappointed that I didn't and try to work out what I need to do better or differently next time. In sport you can't always predict the outcome, but if someone is going to be happy with a L64 then that's likely all they will achieve IMHO. Of course I'm not saying that is what any of our current crop thinks, how could I know that, just that having ambition is not a bad thing here.

Parry Reposte
-14th April 2007, 10:20
Alex into the L32 15-3.

rugmike
-14th April 2007, 10:34
No one's asking anyone to "apologise for having ambitions for the cadets/juniors" , if thats the aim. It's simply that the approach and tactics seem doubtful to say the least, and badly thought out.
If you read the quote fully, and apply the pretty straightforward strictures in it, DC'S advice is that anyone who made a 64 or 32, even at first attempt at this level, has done nothing worth a light - unless you are 14, apparently.

Accomplishment factor = zilch.

Not much in the carrot line, and a fairly intensive laying on of sticks, I'd have thought.

Much of the problem is in making the event, so that's a great accomplishment, as far I'm concerned.
The next is maintaining skill and strength levels at the level needed, again not a bad step.
And lastly, to my mind, keeping the mental strength to match - so that if you do lose, it's because you lost to a better fencer, you didn't beat yourself.
To say, for example, that losing to Savitch in the MS, or Ward in the WS means nothing, is simply an insult, whether it's in the 64 or the 32.

To say you shouldn't be happy about it is another thing - it rather depends
how you lost, I think.
But there's nothing wrong in being pleased you had the chance.

PS By the way, another fine performance by Benedikt Glass of Beir !

UglyBug
-14th April 2007, 10:44
Alex into the L32 15-3.

Got Wilain in the L32 - bit of a tough draw for that stage, though as a certain "Magic" Polish coach once told me, to win the Worlds you have to beat everyone regardless of who they are!

Stuart Marshall out of the L64 15/14

Tubby
-14th April 2007, 11:05
All WE made the cut. Emma (64) on soon v 65 then if through No. 1. Corinna and Alisa won't meet until semi/final?

Foilling Around
-14th April 2007, 11:23
Since when do brothers have to 'tread a bit carefully' around each other?

Let me explain why I posted in the first place. I was dissapointed by constantly hearing 'better luck next time', 'good experience', 'you tried your best, thats what really counts', etc. So instead of following the mainstream voices I decided to voice what i thought was an unbiased look on the situation. Comming in the Last 64, unless you are a 14 year old, means nothing. Getting a L32 only counts as a good result when concerning future potential.

I most certainly didnt say any fencer was 'crap', only that there result was 'crappy' and to say otherwise is to insult their fencing ability (or one should hope that would be the case).

I don't offer suggestions or solutions as I belive, for foil anyway, that they are already in place. Keith Smith is doing a good job in supporting the furture fencers of tommorrow, alongside building a firm structure for fencers who have real potential and hunger for success. Time is all thats needed.

Oh, and rugmike, a little more maturity when posting please. This isn't a school yard where you can throw insults around. Regardless of your intention, your comments were not appreciated.

Hi Yas, as you will probably have gathered, I watched a lot of the cadet foil as well as the other weapons over the past few days. I agree with you that there is a lot of pussy footing aroung whern we come to talking about the results. It is very difficult to divorce criticism of the reults from criticism of the fencers. The two are not always one and the same.

One problem especially with the Cadets is that of seeding. There is no effective seeding and there are very uneven pools. I offer Marcus as a perfect example. He fenced really well in the poule (5 and 1) but then met an unseeded Japanese in the L32. Marcus took him really close but the guy went on to win the final. I watched Miyake's L16, L8 and semi final fights and Marcus' fight was worthy of being the semi final.

Your Bruv was inspired in the pool and trounced some really good fencers. He knows he should have beaten the Greek (though the Greek was not a bad fencer and went on the make the L16). Something happened mentally and tactically between the poule and the DE. He knows that, we discussed it a breakfast the following morning, and I that is what he will have to work on for next year. I think Peter would also agree that with better tactical awareness he could have won his DE fight. Catriona is in the same situation. She won 4/6 with a 5:4 loss. If she had won that fight she would have had a bye into the L32.

Even so she could/should have beaten the Korean and the Korean she would then have met in L32 was not that much better. Karine and Philippa found the transfer to this level of fencing very difficult and had more difficult unseeded fencers in their poules than Catriona.

Husayn, Peter and others who underperformed, like James Honeybone, have another chance to qualify next year. Some sports psychology I think is required to achieve more consitenet performances.

A few of we coaches had a long discussion yesterday on the was home on the plane. I do not believe that it is in terms of fitness or technique that we are lacking. Yes these could be improved, but it is the mental side where we are lacking. I don't think this is because we have particularly weak willed fencers, but the whole system in Britain does not prepare our young fencers for the pressure of the Worlds.

This was my first World Championships and the difference in the pressures exerted on the the fencers are so far removed from the domestic circuit as to be another world entirely. In foil at least, we force them to compete against middle aged, middle ability old duffers like me in the early rounds of the big opens, then they often come up against the senior fencers in the latter rounds and lose. A Cadet fencer can go through a whole major Cadet points scoring event without ever having fenced another Cadet. How silly is that!!

I disgaree with you that the structure is in place in foil. It may well be coming into place, but there is a lot ot do. We have cherry picked a few who applied for the pathway, including Ahmed, but they cannot thrive in isolation. Even if they do succeed and one or more of them win a medal at 2012, the structure in place at the moment is not geared to develop the next generation.

There is some promise with the England TA set up starting to take the Under 15s abroad so that they start to get used to the pressures earlier and graduate to the Cadet level. I could go on about this for hours, but I have to give it all a lot more thought and try to do practical things not just talk about them.

Tubby
-14th April 2007, 11:25
Accomplishment factor = zilch.

Not much in the carrot line, and a fairly intensive laying on of sticks, I'd have thought. You're missing my point. Probably because I don't want to write an essay to fully explain.

Making the Worlds is small "a" accomplishment. Making the 8 is capital "A". At least in the eyes of talented fencers like Yas, Ahmed and Hussayn. ( I know I'm presuming to speak for them.) Once you reach a level you should not look back. Once you qualify for the Worlds you should progress and expect to qualify for the next one (certainly in the same age bracket) otherwise your mind is not right to allow you to succeed. If you don't qualify by one point then that should be seen as failure. Too many times people want to see the glass as part full for fear of upsetting the delicate feelings of someone in a combative sport, p-leeesse. These athletes should not expect any carrot - they should not need it and should be self motivated to achieve. The stick on the other hand plays a powerful role to motivate those who are self motivated. Mind you, the GB swimmers would have you believe otherwise.

Tubby
-14th April 2007, 11:42
Alex and emma both out.

PM1
-14th April 2007, 12:52
This has trurned into a very interesting thread (not that the progress of our fencers as it happens has not been - thanks very much for that Paul!).

Psychology it is - Boy went to the Worlds when he was 15 as top cadet. His day started badly (after a night of fitful sleeping) when he was first fight on piste, and his opponent didn't turn up. Deflation set in early I think, as you are already a fight down and not a stroke been struck. He is on his way back, having psychology in place now.

I could go on about our youth system for hours, but won't bore you now. My main concerns are lack of consistency of approach across the weapons and age groups, and 13 year olds being expected to fence adults. Sabre has good ideas as to comps attended, but I have concerns in other respects. I have for all of the weapons and age groups, even junior mens epee which I am most associated with (and we have some good disscussions about that !!).

Until GB has appointed and paid coaches who take responsibility for the WHOLE of the season for the WHOLE of the squad at EVERY comp attended, we are running to catch up with the serious fencing nations. The GB coach shoul in my opinion not be just who will take it on, but appointments. Not just coaches who will do it because their own fencers are there, but for EVERY fencer in the squad. I know this last sentence isn't the case with all of the weapons, but it is for some.

We are trying hard with TA's to get it better. It's not rocket science, but it ain't easy either. And it won't be that much point to it if fencers go from the TA system into a jumble.

I'll go back to my gardening now ...ranting

Boo Boo
-14th April 2007, 13:25
I think that the biggest critics of any "disappointing results" will be the individual fencers themselves...

However nothing can change a disappointing result - it is in the past. But the fencer and their coach can take away what happened and use it to make them better prepared for next time.

The other thing to consider is that a "disappointing result" for some is a "great result" for others - you can't measure everyone by the same stick: some fencers develop at different speeds than others (i.e. it is possible for a good cadet to blossom as they become a great junior). The important thing is not how they perceive their result, but how they use it as a motivator to move on.

British Fencing (and this forum) is a very small world: many of us know each other. So anything posted on here has the risk of being taken personally.

The only constructive thing that most of us (on here) can do is support our fencers 110%.

Good luck to the teams left to fence :)

Boo

Boo Boo
-14th April 2007, 15:55
Corinna lost (15:11) to Shechtman (ISR) in the L32

Boo

Boo Boo
-14th April 2007, 16:02
Nobody fencing tomorrow? Teams on Monday and Tuesday?

Boo

madfencer
-14th April 2007, 16:13
Hard luck to Corinna but good luck to the teams :)

Gangsta G
-14th April 2007, 16:43
I have never been to a World Championships and only 3 Junior A Grades but I suspect (at sabre at least) the difficulty comes with overcoming the pressure (personaly imposed or otherwise) of the competition as opposed to adjusting to the standard of the competition. With the exception of Dan Balderson, all of our sabreurs have a lot of Junior World Cup experience. This is the highest level of competition experience you can achieve at youth level. Some world cups, such as Budapest, are actually harder than the world championships anyway. So I doubt that our fencers do not have sufficient competition experience. I suspect that the added pressure of fencing at THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS is more likely to effect the fencers.

wear wanderers
-14th April 2007, 17:19
This thread has been absolutely fascinating - I've been hooked, & haven't got a lot of work done this week. Thanks to all those who have kept us up to date during the competition, hope this follows through into next week too.

Baldric
-14th April 2007, 18:05
Until GB has appointed and paid coaches who take responsibility for the WHOLE of the season for the WHOLE of the squad at EVERY comp attended, we are running to catch up with the serious fencing nations. The GB coach shoul in my opinion not be just who will take it on, but appointments. Not just coaches who will do it because their own fencers are there, but for EVERY fencer in the squad.

This is a very valid point. Its not possible at cadet level to have a national coach who coaches all the fencers regularly. It would be nice, but a fencer ideally works with their coach 2 or 3 times a week, and with fencers as far apart as Truro and Scotland, genuinely centralised coaching is not feasible.

However, the coach(es) that takes the cadet squads abroad should know all the fencers well, and be in touch with the individual coaches back in the clubs - feeding information back about performance, and taking on issues highlighted by the club. Ideally, they should not have personal allegiances to individual fencers.

They should also be scouting the LPJS and cadet comps, along with TAs and the other home nation equivalents, developing relationships with the up-and-coming youngsters.

I know that its a big ask, and would need to be a properly funded role. Hasn't BF just acquired about £50k for elite youth development. Divided by 6 weapons, thats £8333 per weapon - enough to fund exactly what Maggs and I are describing maybe......

thedoc
-14th April 2007, 18:14
to compare if it really is the pressure of the world championships that is leading to underperformance, you should compare a fencer's average a-grade result (mean and mode, for a really clear picture) to their finishing position at the worlds. that would give a interesting indicator.

i think when you look at that, you will see that more often than not, our fencers finish pretty much where you would expect them to.

that suggests something else is at work.

UglyBug
-14th April 2007, 18:17
Just back to the competition for a bit!!

The silver medallist in the Junior MS is a Korean chap by the name of Park. Doesn't appear on the world rankings anywhere - not a bad debut!

Foilling Around
-14th April 2007, 18:47
This is a very valid point. Its not possible at cadet level to have a national coach who coaches all the fencers regularly. It would be nice, but a fencer ideally works with their coach 2 or 3 times a week, and with fencers as far apart as Truro and Scotland, genuinely centralised coaching is not feasible.

However, the coach(es) that takes the cadet squads abroad should know all the fencers well, and be in touch with the individual coaches back in the clubs - feeding information back about performance, and taking on issues highlighted by the club. Ideally, they should not have personal allegiances to individual fencers.

They should also be scouting the LPJS and cadet comps, along with TAs and the other home nation equivalents, developing relationships with the up-and-coming youngsters.

I know that its a big ask, and would need to be a properly funded role. Hasn't BF just acquired about £50k for elite youth development. Divided by 6 weapons, thats £8333 per weapon - enough to fund exactly what Maggs and I are describing maybe......

Baldric is quite right about the development role of the Cadet squad coaches/mamagers. In an ideal world they should go to all the cadet internationals, the LPJS and BYC events, they should feedback verbally or in writing to the personal coaches and the squad manager should be making sure that the fencers have the properadvice on general training, fencing training, nutrition, hydration etc. That does not need they should do it themselves, but just make sure that the fencers have access to this and if necessary point them in the right direction. In other words I do think that BF should take over fencers lives at Cadet level, but those that are showing promise should be guided and given the necessary advice to them and their parents.

Let us look at the present situation. The Cadet WF squad coach earns his living as a professional coach. On some trips he will actually lose money to accompany the fencers. The time taken to feedback to the parents/coaches of 15 girls would be another half day's work at least for each event. That is two full days per year. Remeber that the parents are paying for all this at the moment.

Many coaches need to work weekends to make ends meet with local authority or school work. The opportunity to tour the LPJS events etc to talent spot just does not exist.

The allegience to individual fencers is a good, but subsiduary point. A coach needs to have an interest in that weapon and hopefully have a backgound to producing successful fencers at that weapon. As such they are likely to have pupils in contention. A good coach will manage to show the correct level of fairness.

Until we can get good funding for the right coaches/managers we will have a haphazard system. We also need to make sure that the coaches time is not spread too thinly across to many age groups/genders.

Hungry Hippo
-14th April 2007, 21:31
Until GB has appointed and paid coaches who take responsibility for the WHOLE of the season for the WHOLE of the squad at EVERY comp attended, we are running to catch up with the serious fencing nations.

Perhaps BF should look outside our own sport for good examples - the recent World track cycling Championships in Palma saw GB take more Golds than all the other nations put together, where just eight years ago, two bronzes was seen as an achievement.

They have, in a newspaper article I read, 60 full time employees looking after their squad, based in Manchester, including 3 chefs!

Now cycling is hardly higher profile than fencing, comparable I would have thought, so how do they do it? More success gets them more money, but how do you kick off the whole process?

_______________________
The Martian Answers.........

TBennett
-14th April 2007, 21:38
Just back to the competition for a bit!!

The silver medallist in the Junior MS is a Korean chap by the name of Park. Doesn't appear on the world rankings anywhere - not a bad debut!

Indeed. You have to bear in mind though that (especially but not only), the Chinese and Koreans do none of the Junior circuit. I never either nation on any of the Junior A-Grades in my 4 years of doing them.... The only reason that they have Junior World Rankings is from the previous years Worlds....

Still, when I was in Juniors I saw 1 World Champion and (I think) 4 Silver medallists from China.... We just never see them and as a result we dont know what they do...Slightly different on the senior circuit though ;) .

Plymouth Fencer
-15th April 2007, 01:43
to compare if it really is the pressure of the world championships that is leading to underperformance, you should compare a fencer's average a-grade result (mean and mode, for a really clear picture) to their finishing position at the worlds. that would give a interesting indicator.

i think when you look at that, you will see that more often than not, our fencers finish pretty much where you would expect them to.

that suggests something else is at work.

Admittedly mean and mode would be an interesting indicator, but in my opinion no where near an accurate indication. There are as I'm sure everyone appreciates so many factors that need to be considered on the day of the competition to determine whether a result can be considered a "good" result.

From how tight a muscle in your leg feels, to nerves, to psycological factors to something like how much sleep the fencer got the night before the competition. Illness and surroundings, plus travelling time all need to be considered at each individual competition. And all that just to merely scratch the suface.

And as anyone who has competed knows, somedays it just clicks and others it don't!

I think the magnitude of a result needs to be decided with respect to the factors and conditions on the day. Not against what one would expect due to mathematical statistics.

Just a thought.

Foilling Around
-15th April 2007, 09:22
There is also the extra pressure that this is what the season, or even the past couple of season have been building up to. If you mess up the Bristol Open, a Cadet International or one particular Junior A Grade then you have others to fall back on. The C/JWCs is all or nothing. You don't just have your own weapon friends and coaches watching, but all 6 weapons, and the great and the good of British Fencing.

They don't just want you to win for you, but also for the image, prestige and even future funding of British Fencing.

Although we can try to isolate the fencers from that, these are generally intelligent and self aware individuals and they are aware of the wider picture.

Some can isolate themselves from all of that and create a mental box round the piste so that everything is focussed on themselves and the opponent, some thrive on the attention and it improves their performance. Some however need help to stop the pressure impacting negatively on their performance.

This is an area which Fencing as a whole has not addressed as well as some other sports.

Louis CB
-15th April 2007, 12:49
Just to cut back to live results for a minute, Andy Fenwick (IRL) is on fire today. He won 6/6 in the poule, beating a hard French epeeist and a tough Netherlander along the way. He's seeded 8th after the poules - hope he does well in the DEs.

Boo Boo
-15th April 2007, 13:07
Just to cut back to live results for a minute, Andy Fenwick (IRL) is on fire today. He won 6/6 in the poule, beating a hard French epeeist and a tough Netherlander along the way. He's seeded 8th after the poules - hope he does well in the DEs.

Will have to adopt him for today then - it is boring having no-one to support (in events that we haven't sent anyone) :upset:

Good luck to Andy Fenwick :)

Boo

PM1
-15th April 2007, 13:32
Will willingly support Andy - go go the twinkle in the eyes !!:whistle: :rolling: :rolling:

Steve
-15th April 2007, 14:08
All looking good so far, he's through to L32, winning 15/12

madfencer
-15th April 2007, 14:33
Good luck to Fenwick, keep it up! :) Great job! :thumbs_up

bafco
-15th April 2007, 14:36
Until GB has appointed and paid coaches who take responsibility for the WHOLE of the season for the WHOLE of the squad at EVERY comp attended, we are running to catch up with the serious fencing nations. The GB coach shoul in my opinion not be just who will take it on, but appointments. I would come at it from another angle, that of coach development. All that is currently available (in the BFA world) is a set of coaching awards. Once you have passed the basic set there is little incentive to progress. Neither are there things like workshops to improve coaching over and above the awards. If you have one or more pupils who are doing well and form part of a national team there is little feed forward to the appropriate national coach, and no feed back to the local coach to allow structured improvement.

Steve
-15th April 2007, 15:39
Andy's through to the L16!

Won L32 match 15/9 after coming back from 5-1 down :not_worth

Baldric
-15th April 2007, 16:07
Go, Irish dude, go! :thumbs_up

TBennett
-15th April 2007, 16:18
Congrats to Andy...a stirling performance. The Polish guy he beat in the 32 won the Junior Europeans this year which makes his result even better. Sadly lost to a Russian in the L16 15-8 I think. Still....a fine result and one I am sure he will be pleased with.

PM1
-15th April 2007, 16:21
I would come at it from another angle, that of coach development. All that is currently available (in the BFA world) is a set of coaching awards. Once you have passed the basic set there is little incentive to progress. Neither are there things like workshops to improve coaching over and above the awards. If you have one or more pupils who are doing well and form part of a national team there is little feed forward to the appropriate national coach, and no feed back to the local coach to allow structured improvement.

I think i'd have to agree with most of what you say, but it doesn't detract from the proposition of having an APPOINTED national coach, and all that goes with that. England are about to appoint someone to consult on coaching education/sylabi and development (if I remember the job spec), but it's a different angle from where I am coming from.

Thre will be something better than what we have - given always that we are governed by (well meaning) volunteers. And that goes for the home nations as well as the BFA in terms of coaching/systems for progression. I suspect that quite a bit is home country based (such as T's), but I would be interested to see where GBR rep falls into any line. Some things would be better being paid fo IMHO.

Back to the rugby match.....;)

madfencer
-15th April 2007, 16:23
Well done to Andy on his last 16, amazing performance by the sounds of it! Beating the Junior European Champion in the L32 is certainly something to be proud of!

PM1
-15th April 2007, 16:24
Congrats to Andy...a stirling performance. The Polish guy he beat in the 32 won the Junior Europeans this year which makes his result even better. Sadly lost to a Russian in the L16 15-8 I think. Still....a fine result and one I am sure he will be pleased with.

I second that remark !! Fine one Andy :mates::kiss1::yesyes:

Mammy Pat will be dead chuffed :grin:

Boo Boo
-15th April 2007, 16:27
Congrats to Andy...a stirling performance. The Polish guy he beat in the 32 won the Junior Europeans this year which makes his result even better. Sadly lost to a Russian in the L16 15-8 I think. Still....a fine result and one I am sure he will be pleased with.

Finishing 11th in a incredibly tough competition (and taking some great scalps along the way) - fantastic :thumbs_up

Shame that there were no Brits at the event to support to.

Boo

Clare Halsted
-15th April 2007, 16:28
I feel I should reply to some of the comments made following the disappointing but mostly predictable individual results in Turkey.

A brief look at the foil results over the last 7 years:

Total L8 places in Junior World Cups, J Europeans, Cadet and Junior Worlds (including teams) 2000-2006: 8, 19, 7, 1, 4, 4, 0 (8 golds )

There is no apparent correlation between funding, central organisation and results; the good results came from the few talented fencers who had exceptional coaches and worked very hard, on a base of years of international experience at varying levels.

I quite agree that we need a better overall programme and I have been pushing for a Junior Performance Director (all weapons) for several years. Unfortunately there has been no funding available for that post, however, as Keith mentioned, the Board has now approved 10K for a new Junior Potential Programme to focus initially on fitness, footwork and coach support for the top cadets, a squad of 36. Details will be on the website next week.

The Foil Committee constantly tries to improve organisation of training and trips abroad. As most know, (but some seem to easily overlook), a major limiting factor is finding people prepared not only to spend hours doing the work but also to take responsibility for problems. We have not exactly had a long queue of applicants for the men’s J/C captain’s job so James Beevers kindly stepped in to do it and without Anne Hanrahan’s contribution so readily given we would be struggling. Could all those with relevant experience and drive who are efficient and prepared to devote many voluntary hours to managing the cadet and junior foilists at home and abroad please contact me directly. There are only 8 weekends involved for international events apart from the 3 championships.

We would of course prefer to have one top class, designated MF coach to go abroad each time and work with the squad + their personal coaches. This is not practical just yet for obvious reasons. I can’t remember a single email from any parent complaining about the arrangements of the trips or suggesting improvements. General comments on this forum can be useful but are not always accurate or well-informed. Any foilist, parent or coach is welcome to contact James or myself (or Linda Strachan for WF) with constructive, realistic suggestions for next season.

Thinking about the nominated home events for cadets, we have of course discussed the relevance of the major domestics for cadet selection, and are watching the new sabre scheme with interest. We took the view that as our top cadets tend to be fairly high in the senior ranking they need to prove themselves in the strongest opens. We are not very interested in how they do against each other – that is not going to prepare them for the totally different world abroad. If we had 8-10 cadets all of a high international standard it would be a different matter. For team selection, the results in the international events are most relevant; some think that only these should be used.

How best to prepare cadets for the European/World Championships? Most of our cadets and juniors (all weapons) train about half as much as most of the good foreign opponents or even less so the results are not surprising. Many of them still have inadequate footwork. Sports psychology, useful as it is, will not compensate for this. The aim of the JPP is to ensure that the cadets are as fit and fast on their feet as anyone with the hope that this will filter down via the personal coaches to provide a better prepared younger tier. Until then, however skilful they are with their blades, they will have little opportunity to show it.

Clare

PM1
-15th April 2007, 17:09
Thanks Clare - will reply to you seperately. But there is no reason why foil trips should be any different to epee or sabre or each to the other, and they are. There is no consistency. People DO complain about how trips are run and how differnt each weapon does it.

Advertsing for volunteers for specific jobs/occasions is in my experience much more likely to be fruitful than a general request for volunteers amongst a limited grouping. Volunteers THEN have to be managed and their abilities utilised appropriately. When people know what is expected from them and they are properly prepared, they tend to perform to the best of their abilities. A bit like our fencers, perhaps.

Looking forward to seeing details of the Junior Potential Programme, including the details of how people are to be selected to be on the programe, what it entails, how the director is to be selected/job description and all the other info we see for the other sports. This could be really good, a positive step forward. On the back of that, I would expect that the cadet/junior weapon squads can benefit too.

Not sure it's just or mainly about fitness tho' - much goes into being fit to compete that is beyond excellent footwork and speed. I have to say that many young fencers still think that fencing is about being on the piste, and not about agility, mental prep, footwork and so on.

Still, owt is better than nowt in the world of training:whistle:

Honesty Box
-15th April 2007, 19:05
We would of course prefer to have one top class, designated MF coach to go abroad each time and work with the squad + their personal coaches. This is not practical just yet for obvious reasons. I can’t remember a single email from any parent complaining about the arrangements of the trips or suggesting improvements. General comments on this forum can be useful but are not always accurate or well-informed. Any foilist, parent or coach is welcome to contact James or myself (or Linda Strachan for WF) with constructive, realistic suggestions for next season.

Clare

Da parents an da fencers does complian, but dey doesnt do it to you guys. Cause you guys is big and scarey and dey dont want to be twubble makers an make it bad for der fencers.

Boo Boo
-15th April 2007, 19:13
In case it is of interest, there are some videos of the cadet/junior worlds up on http://www.fencingchannel.net (can't see any British fencers in the clips though - still, interesting footage).

Boo
(looking for a teenager-English translator to put the last post through... :eek: ;) )

bafco
-15th April 2007, 19:21
The aim of the JPP is to ensure that the cadets are as fit and fast on their feet as anyone with the hope that this will filter down via the personal coaches to provide a better prepared younger tier. Until then, however skilful they are with their blades, they will have little opportunity to show it. I think the critical phrase here is "hope that this will filter down via the personal coaches". We need to ensure that it does more than trickle down, it needs something more active. Should we be using the coach educators that we now have to run workshops on the techniques that regional coaches are expected to follow?

Honesty Box
-15th April 2007, 19:44
(looking for a teenager-English translator to put the last post through... :eek: ;) )

Does you fink i tawks like dis for normal, no man I just doesnt want to be seed as twubble maker.

Dees big guys can be dead nasty to us diddy guys when we says fings dey does not want to hear.

Tawk to da fencers man - what does dey fink!!!

Honesty Box
-15th April 2007, 20:00
Thinking about the nominated home events for cadets, we have of course discussed the relevance of the major domestics for cadet selection, and are watching the new sabre scheme with interest. We took the view that as our top cadets tend to be fairly high in the senior ranking they need to prove themselves in the strongest opens. We are not very interested in how they do against each other – that is not going to prepare them for the totally different world abroad. If we had 8-10 cadets all of a high international standard it would be a different matter. For team selection, the results in the international events are most relevant; some think that only these should be used.

Yous is not very interested well dat just bout does it. We is interested man. You finks fencing de old duffers helps wen you got da germans, da french an dat lot to get ready for!!!!

Boo Boo
-15th April 2007, 20:09
Does you fink i tawks like dis for normal, no man I just doesnt want to be seed as twubble maker.

Dees big guys can be dead nasty to us diddy guys when we says fings dey does not want to hear.

Tawk to da fencers man - what does dey fink!!!

So you could be Foilling Around using a second identity to express grievances? (sorry Foilling Around, wanted to compare Honesty Box with someone least likely to use "teenage-speak"... ).

Is there no-one you trust to talk to? If you don't talk to anyone, then no-one has a chance to do anything to help.

I guess that this is one of the areas where the "Athlete Representatives" should come in, but they seem to be inactive: when I spoke to James Willams 18+ months ago, there were supposed to be new elections at the 2006 Senior Nationals. It is difficult to know what is supposed to be the current "official" channel for athlete feedback to the BFA.

Boo

Baldric
-15th April 2007, 20:29
I don't know who "Honesty Box" is, but I agree with everything they are saying.

Am currently writing a long letter to Clare. Decided against ya-boo postings on the forum. I must have reached what my father calls "the age of discretion". :nanananan

Boo Boo
-15th April 2007, 20:36
I must have reached what my father calls "the age of discretion". :nanananan

Something to look forward to, or am I beyond all hope...? :rolling:

Boo

Foilling Around
-15th April 2007, 21:15
So you could be Foilling Around using a second identity to express grievances? (sorry Foilling Around, wanted to compare Honesty Box with someone least likely to use "teenage-speak"... ).
Boo

So are you calling me one of those "old duffers" referred to by HB.

Gawd bless you ma'am, I believe in the correct use of the Queen's English.

There is a point in all that verbage however, have we ever asked the fencers themselves, I mean those who have made it to World Finals level, what they think prepares them best.

To be honest, my opinion is that neither fencing the British adult circuit nor fencing each other 6 or 7 times a year prepares our Cadet and Junior fencers for the styles, speed and pressures of the international circuit. At least if they were fencing each other more regularly it gives a better indication of their comapitive ability against each other. Factor in the foreign results and we should get a fair system. Having listened to David Sach last week that is what the Sabre system is designed to do. I too will be interested in how it works.

I have only had a brief glimpse of the international scene so far, but we have a lot of work to do. As a fencing nation we need confidence. Whilst we were having the Cadet Team photograph on Thursday I heard a comment, I don't know by whom, "Yeah take a photo of us we're cr*p"

Boo Boo
-15th April 2007, 21:35
So are you calling me one of those "old duffers" referred to by HB.

Errr.... ;). No, from reading HB's posts, I must be one of the "old duffers" (so not sure what that makes you... :not_worth :grin: ;) ).


Gawd bless you ma'am, I believe in the correct use of the Queen's English.

Exactly - hence my comment: you are one of the people on this board I would vote LEAST likely to ever use improper English :)


There is a point in all that verbage however, have we ever asked the fencers themselves, I mean those who have made it to World Finals level, what they think prepares them best.

Indeed - a debriefing survey for fencers at the worlds (and, indeed, something similar for those who attend all cadet/junior/senior A-grades) would make a lot of sense :thumbs_up


I have only had a brief glimpse of the international scene so far, but we have a lot of work to do. As a fencing nation we need confidence. Whilst we were having the Cadet Team photograph on Thursday I heard a comment, I don't know by whom, "Yeah take a photo of us we're cr*p"

That is so sad :upset: . This is why I think that we should stand behind and support all of our fencers 110% (at least). I know that the BFA feels that it shouldn't accept/promote mediocracy, but what constructive good does it to demoralise our young fencers? We need these young stars of tomorrow to be coming back energised, determined to work hard to progress... not feeling like "cr*p". :rolleyes:

Boo

Baldric
-15th April 2007, 23:25
Indeed - a debriefing survey for fencers at the worlds (and, indeed, something similar for those who attend all cadet/junior/senior A-grades) would make a lot of sense :thumbs_up


Bluddy good idea!

We did this after the TA Paris trip. It was an interesting exercise. In the immediate aftermath of the event, everyone was very upbeat, and I was feeling very pleased with myself, and with the team. However, I deliberately held the feedback questionnaire back a couple of weeks.

Although none of the parents or fencers had criticised the trip at the time, they later came up with several useful and constructive criticisms, and many of their ideas will be worked into next years trip.

Fencing organisers are hard working volunteers, but they DO NOT HAVE A MONOPOLY on good ideas, neither are they best placed to judge their own efforts. The best judges are the "customers" - the fencers (and parents) who use the service provided.

Unlike commercial businesses, whose customers can vote with their spending power, BF is a monopolistic supplier. It therefore has to work that much harder to find out whether it is doing a good job.

Being defensive on the grounds that "all us volunteers are doing the best we can" is understandable, but not that useful.

I do lots of work in fencing as a volunteer. If I do it less well than I might, then someone constructively pointing this fact out is being helpful, and should be encouraged. Even if it sometimes p!sses me off.

Regards

Baldric.

PM1
-15th April 2007, 23:54
Agreed

And on that trip, each volunteer knew which job they were doing and when it ended, and we checked up on how things were going frequently. Ask the punters what they think, but AFTER they have had a sleep and a chance to reflect, adults and fencers and volunteers alike.

Volunteers don't always do a bad job, but we need direction and feed back, and the odd cup of coffee:rolling:

D'Artignan
-15th April 2007, 23:58
Gav, KK, Wingnut? Could one of you guys split all the posts not directly relating to the results at the WCs into another thread? There's a lot of interesting debate going on here which a) deserves it's own thread, and b) distracts people (or maybe just me) from following the results.

Cheers guys.:thumbs_up

Glue Boy
-16th April 2007, 07:50
Admittedly mean and mode would be an interesting indicator, but in my opinion no where near an accurate indication. There are as I'm sure everyone appreciates so many factors that need to be considered on the day of the competition to determine whether a result can be considered a "good" result.

From how tight a muscle in your leg feels, to nerves, to psycological factors to something like how much sleep the fencer got the night before the competition. Illness and surroundings, plus travelling time all need to be considered at each individual competition. And all that just to merely scratch the suface.

And as anyone who has competed knows, somedays it just clicks and others it don't!

I think the magnitude of a result needs to be decided with respect to the factors and conditions on the day. Not against what one would expect due to mathematical statistics.

Just a thought.

Glue Boy:

Jake has hit the nail on the head! Me and Kingbob are sat in Turkey reading this thread and this is the most sensible thing said on it.

I will agree entirely we haven't had overall great results. With me probably getting the worst result of all. I will go away now and try and find out why it went wrong on the day, but like Jake said we all have bad days... but mine was at the World Champs. :(

You can't go into a competition looking for experience, you go into to win. But you do gain very important experience whatever the results. We agree that this world is entirely results based, but for in the future years this experience will help results. Alot of our fencers have many years left in these competitions and will hopefully the results will improve with time. If they don't start improving then we can start questioning the fencers.

Kingbob:

Lets not how forget well everyone has doe lets not dampen the effort and committement of this great squad, roll on the eam event!!!!

Glue Boy and Kingbob

rpryer
-16th April 2007, 09:35
The MF team have beaten Canada 45-38, and now face the Koreans in the L16.

Australian
-16th April 2007, 10:28
The MF team have beaten Canada 45-38, and now face the Koreans in the L16.

That's a good result. The Canadians are pretty handy.

Boo Boo
-16th April 2007, 11:08
The MF team have beaten Canada 45-38, and now face the Koreans in the L16.

Good luck to the MF team :)

:mexwave:

(oops - too late: GB knocked out by Korea, 45:36 in the L16). Have just notticed that the MF team had a HUGE entry.

Boo

DonnCarnage
-16th April 2007, 11:14
Lost in the L16 45/36 to Korea after beating Canada 45/38 in the L32

Jan O'C
-16th April 2007, 13:21
Got Wilain in the L32 - bit of a tough draw for that stage, though as a certain "Magic" Polish coach once told me, to win the Worlds you have to beat everyone regardless of who they are!

Stuart Marshall out of the L64 15/14

Sorry this post is so long but hopefully it will be semi clear to all.

Alex lost to Wilain and was obviously disappointed. It was going to be a hard fight - he beat Wilain in Dormagen but lost to him in Montreal so 50-50. I agree with Ugly Bug that you have to beat everyone regardless of who they are but only on a level playing field, which on the day it wasn't. Unfortunately there have been a few serious problems with the wireless system here and I will try to explain it below tho I'm sure when he gets time Neil Brown will provide a much better explanation!

When Grace got through to the L32 she went to Wireless weapons control and they wouldn't let her fence because her swords kept giving white lights. She uses Allstar bayonet fittings - she swopped to James Honeybone's LP two pin swords and wires and it was fine. We didn't know why and nothing was explained to us so other than saying that she fenced fantastically with a sword she has never used in her life and that Tigger coached her really well, that was that.

We didn't think to mention any of this to Alex when he arrived a couple of days later because we didn't understand the relevance.

When Alex went to Wireless weapon control, he went alone and had the same problem but, unlike Grace, was told that it would be fine on the piste. He didn't think to mention the problem to us and we didn't think to ask. Foolish of us and him possibly. When he went onto the piste the white lights came up and there was a long delay while the technicians tried to sort it out, unsuccessfully - none of his weapons or bodywire combinations worked and we couldn't borrow from anyone because no-one else around was left handed. Obviously he became very unsettled by this and never settled into a rythym because the fight was stopped every couple of hits while they tried to sort it out. In addition, hits that should have been his weren't always coming up if the white light came on. He managed to borrow kit towards the end of the fight (12-8 down) from an American (I think) who had just finished his bout but it was too late. The end result was that he lost.

After making a lot of enquiries we found out that the problem was Allstar swords with bayonet fittings - no-one else in Grace or Alex's 32's had bayonet fittings - how unlucky was that! The continentals all use 2 pin.

After extensive enquiries by Peter Jacobs and Neil Brown it transpires that the Wireless system has recently been upgraded. On normal boxes, the coloured lights show after 1 ms and the white lights after 1.5 and this was always the same on wireless but the update has changed it to 1 ms for coloured and white. The bayonet fixings are not as stable/taut (or something) so they keep giving white lights which because the timing is the same, also blocks out the coloured light of the fencer whose sword has a problem.

If wireless control had explained this to Alexor refused to let him use his swords as they did with Grace, we would have gone and bought 3 new swords and wires but quite simply for some reason, they didn't.

Apparently someone (not a Brit) had a similar problem with Foil.

Peter Jacobs is writing to the FIE about it. We will have to get Alex and Grace's swords and wires changed to 2 pin and then get them checked.

It is unlikely to be a prob for the team event as wireless is only used in the L4 onwards so if we get that far, we will be delighted to go and buy new kit!! We have Greece in L32 and then if successful, we have top seeds Italy in L16.

We have no way of knowing what the outcome would have been if the wireless problem hadn't happened. Alex was seeded 8th and fencing well (L64 fight was 15-3), certainly he looked better than Wilain up until then.

The important thing to be taken away from this is that British Fencing must look into the matter seriously and make sure that any British fencer who may have to use wireless in future at any event has 2 pin swords and wires. The FIE should hold serious discussions with the wireless people and make sure that any modifications are notified to all countries so that the correct amendments to kit can be made - they had only tested the modification on 2 pin so presumably didn't realise the problem til it happened.

Our thanks to Tigger for coaching Grace and for standing in at the last minute to coach Alex and Henry when Mike Matthews was unable to come to the Worlds due to a car accident which has left him with broken ribs and concussion. Get well soon Mike. Thanks also to Peter Wright who coached Henry during his poule while Tigger was with Alex.

UglyBug
-16th April 2007, 17:42
All sounds like a bit of a nightmare Jan! And get well soon Mike.

Bring on the teams - hope the new kit isn't too expensive when they hit the L4

madfencer
-16th April 2007, 18:13
Bloody hell, that really was a nightmare! Hopefully nothing like this will ever happen again.

Sorry to hear about Mike, hope he gets better soon.

Good luck to all in the teams!

madfencer

gbm
-16th April 2007, 18:21
Bayonet fittings are fine (if not more reliable than two pins), provided they are properly made. Unfortunately AFAIK only Leon Paul make decent bayonet plugs.

Blame Allstar for using cheap badly made Chinese bayonet plugs.

gbm
-16th April 2007, 18:31
Worst case scenario, jam some tinfoil/wire/paperclip/whatever in the socket (any type) - as the only aim of a sabre inside guard socket is to short out the two contacts to the sword.

PM1
-16th April 2007, 19:33
Horrible situation Jan/Alex. :upset:

AussieMongrel
-16th April 2007, 21:35
Glue Boy:

Jake has hit the nail on the head! Me and Kingbob are sat in Turkey reading this thread and this is the most sensible thing said on it.

I will agree entirely we haven't had overall great results. With me probably getting the worst result of all. I will go away now and try and find out why it went wrong on the day, but like Jake said we all have bad days... but mine was at the World Champs. :(

You can't go into a competition looking for experience, you go into to win. But you do gain very important experience whatever the results. We agree that this world is entirely results based, but for in the future years this experience will help results. Alot of our fencers have many years left in these competitions and will hopefully the results will improve with time. If they don't start improving then we can start questioning the fencers.

Kingbob:

Lets not how forget well everyone has doe lets not dampen the effort and committement of this great squad, roll on the eam event!!!!

Glue Boy and Kingbob

Glue Boy and Kinbob, nicely put and despite the fact that you are not Aussies and are from such far flung places as Cornwall and Manchester I will be cheering you on from afar in the team event, all the best guys really hope you do well.

rugmike
-16th April 2007, 21:35
Nat's sabres (bayonet LP) were passed fine behind the curtain, nothing said. But in fight, white definitely came up more a fair bit , despite lickin', but no scoring hits were effected. The odd thing is the same thing happened (but not as much) in the 64, even after a change of weapon. Again, he says no hits were missed, The ref's voluntary use of their own video seemed to sort out most together/knife-edge calls ok anyway.
Nat's big problem was not assuming too much, and not buying a sexy vest beforehand, which caused a bit of a panic !
When asked what went on behind there, he said " oh, fine. Everybody just shouted at everyone a lot, me most, 'cos I didn't have a vest".
ps Well done Grace, top job, and Jessica, in the 32, and Sophie, nb after the horrendous knee-time.

rpryer
-17th April 2007, 11:09
After a narrow win against the Japenese, the MS team lost to number 1 seeds Italy 45-36 in the L16.

The WE team had a slightly easier win against Japan in their L32 match, but then also lost to the Italians in the L16.

Boo Boo
-17th April 2007, 11:46
Interesting that they both had exactly the same draws... It is always going to be a lot to do from 15/16/17th seed.

ME/WF teams tomorrow... we have no teams in those events :(. Hope that everyone has a safe flight home (who isn't already home).

Boo

madfencer
-17th April 2007, 11:51
Well done to the teams, it was tough to draw Italy like that in both team events!

Safe journey back to all,

madfencer

Tubby
-17th April 2007, 13:33
Safe journey back to all
Where is that? :grin: (sorreeee , had to indulge myself)

madfencer
-17th April 2007, 16:28
Where is that? :grin: (sorreeee , had to indulge myself)

hehe nice one! :grin:

Jan O'C
-18th April 2007, 23:20
Nat's sabres (bayonet LP) were passed fine behind the curtain, nothing said. But in fight, white definitely came up more a fair bit , despite lickin', but no scoring hits were effected. The odd thing is the same thing happened (but not as much) in the 64, even after a change of weapon. Again, he says no hits were missed, The ref's voluntary use of their own video seemed to sort out most together/knife-edge calls ok anyway.
Nat's big problem was not assuming too much, and not buying a sexy vest beforehand, which caused a bit of a panic !
When asked what went on behind there, he said " oh, fine. Everybody just shouted at everyone a lot, me most, 'cos I didn't have a vest".
ps Well done Grace, top job, and Jessica, in the 32, and Sophie, nb after the horrendous knee-time.

For some reason the Allstar bayonet fixings are different to the LP ones - Neil took one apart to show me and he thought he knew how to overcome the problem. However, after much work with the Allstar and wireless guys there, they still couldn't get Alex's swords to work. Neil says he'll put a post on the forum to explain it all as soon as he's back home and has time. I'll phone Allstar tomorrow for a chat about what to do before Alex next needs to use wireless.

The difference between LP & Allstar fittings meant that the LP ones passed - hence Nat and Jess were allowed to use theirs and the Allstar ones didn't, hence Grace wasn't. Annoyingly a few days later, the wireless control guy passed Alex's because he didn't know what else to do. Obviously he should have done what the guy did with Grace and just said 'sorry you can't use your kit, sort it out'. Then we would have gone and bought new ones!!

Re performances, when all is taken into consideration the GB results were not that bad. Its late now but I'll try to get Alex to post an explanation of this while I'm at work tomorrow!

rugmike
-19th April 2007, 22:11
Due to appalling lighting etc... which made even the pro fotey man deliver a mess, and bum operator using my camera [yes, me, alright], anyone got any MS snaps ? Be v. grateful should there be any.