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reposte
-8th October 2003, 00:51
Covalio was ROBBED!!!

PM1
-8th October 2003, 01:12
Bearing in mind that epee is the weapon I watch out of choice (men's), I have to say that I agree with you - and who WAS the commentator ????? Even I could have done better..........:o

Rhubarb
-8th October 2003, 10:46
I find the above comments unhelpful ,unless the referee can be identified as incompetant OR dishonest then perhaps he saw something the viewers failed to take into account.(after all he is there and is qualified/selected and a far better referee of sabre than his critics

pinkelephant
-8th October 2003, 12:17
Originally posted by PM1
Bearing in mind that epee is the weapon I watch out of choice (men's), I have to say that I agree with you - and who WAS the commentator ????? Even I could have done better..........:o

The commentator is a former President of British Fencing.

Rhubarb
-8th October 2003, 12:42
see other thread for comments o0n JC's performances

reposte
-8th October 2003, 12:57
I find it unhelpful to have what is in my eyes the best sabreur in the world being repeatedly denied recognition as he deserves
simply because he is constantly outthinking the referee.
I'm not alone on this one, if I'm not mistaken nahouw is with me on that one.

hokers
-8th October 2003, 13:06
Personally I thought Covalio suffered a bit from a lack of composure, especially at the start of the fight. Fourth hit against him looked to be quite fortunate, he got annoyed and mistimed his next attack, and suddenly the scores are level.

He was good against the Italian though, especially when he started to come back at the end.

I also thought the commentary was awful, really elementary errors the whole way through. If the commentator doesnt know what happened, how is the audience going to understand?

Eurosport seriously should find another commentator

rory
-8th October 2003, 13:08
"Outthinking the referee"?

A good fencer should always adapt his or her fencing to the ref, in addition to the opponent. If you're not getting the hits awarded when you use a move, DON'T USE IT.

This, always has been, and always will be part of the game. I doubt Covaliu's bitching about it as much as you are.

whizzkid1982
-8th October 2003, 13:17
i watched it live. didn't record it so will have to find it on the web, but watching it live i didn't think he was robbed. it looked like he lost his rag a bit with a few decisions that were very close but given the right way. (a lot of them i could only see when they showed the run through of all the hits in slow mo at the end!!)

yes he is very good fencer but he got very flustered and really didn't seem to be totally focused after the early decisions.

reposte
-8th October 2003, 13:18
Ask him and find out.

PM1
-8th October 2003, 17:37
I have to assume that the commentator was watching the same picture as me - I could be wrong. There were several occasions in the sabre final when he called one fencer as having won the hit when I would say it was clear that he hadn't (even considereing ROW), and the slow mo showed him to be incorrect too. I'm not a fencer (yet) but have been watching for several years. The commentary was not as helpful as it could have been.

And was I asleep at the time, or did the ref call passivity in the third period of the women's epee final and award priority to the UKR (as the commentator said) or did the third period come to an end at level scores, and the match go into a final minute (priority called as before)? That's what I believe I saw, not what was said, tho' I thought his explanation of passivity helpful (and what I'd been thinking earlier in the third period).

Do I watch tonight or not................

His comments about vision masks was pretty spot on - hasn't helped televisually for me...

Sabine
-8th October 2003, 19:11
My read of what happened was that there were 12 seconds left in the 3rd period and the 2 fencers backed off to say that they were happy for time to expire. The referee called halt and then set priority for the last minute.

The fencers did the same with just a few seconds remaining in the second period.

This hardly counts as a major application of the passivity rule as per Mr Chambers commentary, especially as to my foil oriented eye the referee should have been calling passivity much earlier given that there was more than a minute in the third period where there was no offensive action and the blades did not meet.

Sabine

PM1
-8th October 2003, 19:20
Thank the Lord that I wasn't imagining it all.......

pinkelephant
-8th October 2003, 21:30
Dd anyone notice Covaliu cross his feet in mid-air early in his fight with Montano? Or indeed Montano's riposte made by throwing his sabre? The referee didn't - but then neither did his assesseurs, and they didn't have the benefit of slow-mo replays.

Muso440
-8th October 2003, 21:38
Originally posted by pinkelephant
The referee didn't - but then neither did his assesseurs, and they didn't have the benefit of slow-mo replays.

Stupid person's question (and one who doesn't have Eurosport and has never seen fencing on TV): don't they use slow motion replays to help the referreeing? Wouldn't it be a good idea? Technologically possible, surely?

reposte
-8th October 2003, 22:49
Ask him and find out.

Naturally intended for roaring Rory

whizzkid1982
-9th October 2003, 13:48
Originally posted by Muso440
Stupid person's question (and one who doesn't have Eurosport and has never seen fencing on TV): don't they use slow motion replays to help the referreeing? Wouldn't it be a good idea? Technologically possible, surely?


that would be far too sensible!!!!

nahouw
-10th October 2003, 08:54
Originally posted by reposte
I find it unhelpful to have what is in my eyes the best sabreur in the world being repeatedly denied recognition as he deserves
simply because he is constantly outthinking the referee.
I'm not alone on this one, if I'm not mistaken nahouw is with me on that one.

As I was reading your post, I was going to respond to agree with you even before I even read that you mentioned me -- but, remember, Mihai did get recognition in the Olympics -- many other excellent fencers never won the Olympics (Golubitsky and Riboud come to mind foremost) -- apparently, the FIE does get the better referees for the Olympics, but I don't understand why not so for the World Championships.

And as to Rory's response to "fencing for the referee" -- I've been there, done that, and have tried to adjust to the referee -- going through the gamut of the scenarios of what takes priority under the rules (both in sabre and foil), and have found that the referees will do what they want to under their discretion (I truly understand as to why people say fencers go insane). If the referee is incapable of truly understanding the rules and seeing the subtly of your actions, you are doomed, no matter what you do. Hence, we have an extremely technically and tactically perfect fencer like Mihai that doesn't get the recognition that he deserves. It is very sad, and it is to the detriment of our sport.

The only time in foil or sabre that I get a touch is when I make it 1 light; my opponent will always get the touch if it is 2 lights -- funny how that happens. After noticing this phenomenon, I finally have decided to only fence epee -- solves my problem -- in my experience, epee is the only weapon in which right-of-way is respected (i.e. by taking the referee's "judgement" out of the equation).

If you ask Mihai's opinion on the subject, he is too much of a gentleman to ever question a referee's decision -- he won't say anything on the matter. However, when I saw him at the last Havana World Cup and told him of my decision to only fence epee and why I made my decision, he said nothing, had a non-expressive facial expression, but his eyes told me he understood.

Boo Boo
-10th October 2003, 09:51
No, the referee has to judge what has happened and phrase it immediately after he has called holt. At least that is the way they do it at the moment - maybe one day it will change...

Think of tennis/football: the referee there has to make decisions instantaneously (without seeing a slow motion replay). S/He is helped by his/her lines men, but then fencing referees are helped by two side judges (who watch for things live covering of target etc.), at the highest level.

No referees are 100% "right", 100% of the time - they are human after all - AND it can be difficult to see what is going on sometimes (the referee, the fencers and the audience all have different view points... what appears one way from one viewpoint may appear another from another angle).

From what I have watched, it appears that the referees may have been "cautious" at certain times and maybe a bit hasty to give a decision at the end of the women's sabre. But I am not qualified to judge: I am a foilist and don't understand all of the subtleties of sabre timing... :)

Boo

reposte
-10th October 2003, 11:05
Did you just use the words "sabre" and "subtleties" at the same sentence?

Rdb811
-10th October 2003, 13:22
Usually you don't have to mention the subleties of sabre ...

In any event (and not aiming this remark at anyone in particular, least of all reposte) - can we not automatically snipe at other weapons than our own - it's not that ineteresting after a while.

Boo Boo
-10th October 2003, 14:17
Rdb

Just to mention - in case anyone thought it - I wasn't sniping at sabre (just trying to highlight that I probably don't have a clue when it comes to sabre timing...)

Boo

Rhubarb
-10th October 2003, 15:31
Dear Boo, I suspect you have a better idea than most of our sabre 'specialists' on this forum

Boo Boo
-10th October 2003, 15:56
That's very kind, but I am sure not true :)

I have a better understanding than I used to do, but there is still a lot where I think "????". Still, sabre is fatastic to watch when it is fenced well - real finesse in the timing used, very beautiful :)

Boo

Rhubarb
-10th October 2003, 16:05
boo, you don't do yourself enough justice

reposte
-10th October 2003, 18:03
In any event (and not aiming this remark at anyone in particular, least of all reposte) - can we not automatically snipe at other weapons than our own - it's not that ineteresting after a while.

Agreed.

For the record, Im a huge fan of Sabre, albeit am a foilist.

Rdb811
-10th October 2003, 18:55
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Rdb

Just to mention - in case anyone thought it - I wasn't sniping at sabre (just trying to highlight that I probably don't have a clue when it comes to sabre timing...)

Boo

I didn't think you were - I am starting to get fed up with the inter weapon sniping. (since I fence epee and keep my hand in at sabre and don't have a clue about foil timing, although I do it occasionally).

Boo Boo
-10th October 2003, 19:01
Good :)

pinkelephant
-14th October 2003, 17:20
Originally posted by Boo Boo

I have a better understanding than I used to do, but there is still a lot where I think "????".
Boo

I suspect that's when the sabreurs actually think the same. I think you'll find sabre timing is not so very different from your own.

Secret Squirrel
-15th October 2003, 11:33
You couldn't tell the difference between the slo-mo and the real time footage - they were so, so fast!

I see what PinkElephant means about Montano 'throwing' his sabre - I had thought it had just been knocked from his grip... so you think he was relying on the wire to...ooh! sneaky!

reposte
-15th October 2003, 13:15
I suspect that's when the sabreurs actually think the same. I think you'll find sabre timing is not so very different from your own.

It isn't. Naturally it's achieved by a different hand movement but that's about it.
I guess though that there are many referee guidelines each period that put emphsis on such or another aspect of timing in order to make the discipline more like one way or another.
It seems that the trend in Sabre now is to award row to a counter into preperation, allowing only for the simplest attacking motion to retain row (I'm not talking about reglar tempi correct counters), probably in order to make sabre more parry friendly than it has hitherto been, much like the pre electricity days.

tigger
-22nd October 2003, 10:17
I'm sorry but Covaliu was not robbed. he was beaten fair and square. I've just watched the video, and replayed just about every hit in slo-mo and there's only one debatable hit in the whole fight. I'm surprised Lukashenko won, but Covaliu didn't look his best. He certainly didn't out-think the ref, who did a great job.

James Chambers clearly has absolutely no understanding of modern sabre timing. He interprets it like modern foil, assuming the blade must be parried to stop the attack, and that an attack on preparation is a counter-attack out of time. Sorry, but sabre timing is far more subtle than foil and the attacks have to be developed far more 'correctly' to maintain ROW. He just about wings it in foil and epee, but there's really no excuse for not understanding the rules.

pinkelephant
-23rd October 2003, 15:30
Originally posted by tigger
He just about wings it in foil and epee, but there's really no excuse for not understanding the rules.

He doesn't wing it at foil either - how on earth could he not spot that the off target lights were at the wrong end? What really grates is the way he seems to make a joke out of not understanding what the hell is going on - but in such a way that to an outsider the sport, rather than himself, seems ludicrous. It makes my blood boil.......................

(Sorry - bad day - but nearly half term, so I can "rest" being the token female staff on a trip to the Battlefields getting totally depressed............):upset: :mad:

Boo Boo
-23rd October 2003, 15:56
I know what you mean, Pinkelephant - fencing (especially foil and sabre) are seen as "difficult to understand" by the general public. Having a commentator who doesn't understand and makes a mockery of the decisions made and the way that the sport is refereed is making the sport seem even more like an unaccessable joke....

I don't think that James' commentating does the sport any favours... very sad :(

Boo

Muso440
-23rd October 2003, 17:26
Originally posted by pinkelephant
What really grates is the way he seems to make a joke out of not understanding what the hell is going on - but in such a way that to an outsider the sport, rather than himself, seems ludicrous. It makes my blood boil.......................


That's reeeeaaaally bad. :( Not having seen it, I was only vaguely sympathising with this thread, but now I can really see the problem. The fencing community (ie. us, for starters) should really complain to Eurosport. Shall we start a petition?

Rhubarb
-24th October 2003, 09:25
Having just witnessed the travesty of the TV from Havana, IMO James was just the icing on the cake. This was a badly presented shambles by the cubans, not up to recent standards, e.g. Trapani and Roch, I suspect would have been incandescent about the delays and poor looking infrastructure. Forget James. Was the scene on your tv one which would encourage 'outsiders' with its portrayal of sporting drama and glory. It made Ipswich look good!

tigger
-24th October 2003, 09:46
Completely agree Ruhubarb. Look at Nimes for a fantastic example - stunning venue, music and lights on the intro of the finalists, no dodgily-dressed characters wandering across the piste between semis and final.

Vive la republique!

reposte
-24th October 2003, 12:07
Vive la republique!

I wouldn't go THAT far....
NOt... the French A grades are definitly a model to look up to.
In sense of broadcasting, last year's Lisbon events were beautifully filmed and edited. The main problem is that when it's a late night show, the Eurosport schedule tends to be dodgy and we get to miss a lot of the action. I don't think that a good broadcast that misses out on a foil event is a good thing.
Foil seems to be the black carded event through out generations: Last year the time was up on the women team finals. This year the first semi final in the men's individual was sacrificed.