PDA

View Full Version : European Championships 2007



Threestain
-30th June 2007, 09:08
Just thought you would like to know the site for the Europeans:

http://www.eurofencing2007.org/eng/

Everything starts Monday:

Individual
2/7/7 = MS & WF
3/7/7 = WE & MF
4/7/7 = ME & WS

Team
5/7/7 = WF & MS
6/7/7 = MF & WE
7/7/7 = ME & WS

These are in order on the day too.

Good luck - I know the team went out yesterday (which I personally think is too early, especially when it's only in Belgium.)

Lucan
-30th June 2007, 09:28
Good luck - I know the team went out yesterday (which I personally think is too early, especially when it's only in Belgium.)
I hope not since the team bus leves in an hours time from London

Boo Boo
-30th June 2007, 11:33
Very good luck to everyone going :)

I look forward to following the results - thanks for the link threestain.

Boo

Foilling Around
-30th June 2007, 22:14
It looks like the nice people at Ophardt will have the results as well.

http://212.34.165.4:8080/WAFechten/index.jsp?

Keith.A.Smith
-1st July 2007, 18:16
Dear All,

The team left on Saturday and fencing starts Monday. Good luck them all.

Keith

tigger
-2nd July 2007, 08:53
Men's Sabre - Only Neil made it through the pools.
Some extraordinary pools - and some great wins for the GB guys.

Alex O'C was incredibly unlucky not to go through after beating world no 5 Lapkes, and world no 29 pastore,losing out to .world 12 Lopez, Desci and Palasz.
Harry lost to world no 4 Covaliu, and world no 14 Lukashenko, world no 25 Gorski, and world top 50 (former top 16) Huebner, and beat Medina
Bucko lost em all, with world no 8 pillet, world no 11 Buikevich, 31 Koniusz and 35 Occhiuzzi, with only de Trog an 'easy' fight.

Neil had a blinder, beating world no 6 Sanson, world no 13 Dumitrescu, and Athens bronze medallist & world no 30 Tretiak. He lost out to Lengyel and work Junior Champion Beisheim. Neil has a bye to the L32 and fences occhiuzzi (an easy draw at this competition!!).

Red
-2nd July 2007, 09:44
And he's out - 15-7

Marcos
-2nd July 2007, 11:29
mad comp this...so so tough:
L16 includes

Podz vs Nemcsik
Marti vs Pina

.......O*N got one more point against Podz than last year, and generally fenced well, but all the poules were hard

cesh_fencing
-2nd July 2007, 11:42
Looks like the Girls have been having a hard time. 51 in the event; cut at 36.

Liz Wright - Eliminated 1st Round - 38th - 1 win out of 5
Martina Emanual - Eliminated 1st Round - 42nd - 1 win out of 5
Claire Bennett - Eliminated 1st Round - 47th - 0 wins out of 6

Well done to Anna Bentley making the cut by a couple of places

Anna - Through 1st round - 34th - 2 wins out of 5

Last 64 faces Edina Knapek - Hungary - Ranked 12th in World Rankings...
Match at 13.30 European time.

pigeonmeister
-2nd July 2007, 11:46
Podz has just knocked Montano out in L8 (15-10)

Red
-2nd July 2007, 12:37
And Anna is out 15-3 to Knapek

AussieMongrel
-2nd July 2007, 12:47
Men's Sabre - Only Neil made it through the pools.
Some extraordinary pools - and some great wins for the GB guys.

Alex O'C was incredibly unlucky not to go through after beating world no 5 Lapkes, and world no 29 pastore,losing out to .world 12 Lopez, Desci and Palasz.
Harry lost to world no 4 Covaliu, and world no 14 Lukashenko, world no 25 Gorski, and world top 50 (former top 16) Huebner, and beat Medina
Bucko lost em all, with world no 8 pillet, world no 11 Buikevich, 31 Koniusz and 35 Occhiuzzi, with only de Trog an 'easy' fight.

Neil had a blinder, beating world no 6 Sanson, world no 13 Dumitrescu, and Athens bronze medallist & world no 30 Tretiak. He lost out to Lengyel and work Junior Champion Beisheim. Neil has a bye to the L32 and fences occhiuzzi (an easy draw at this competition!!).


Really happy for Neil, one of the nicest people that I have met in fencing and it is really good to see the hard work paying off. Well Done!!!

cesh_fencing
-2nd July 2007, 13:06
And Anna is out 15-3 to Knapek

Ouch.... Anna beat Knapek 5-3 in the poules...

AussieMongrel
-2nd July 2007, 13:26
where are people getting the results from the links I have tried on this thread dont seem to work.

cesh_fencing
-2nd July 2007, 13:31
where are people getting the results from the links I have tried on this thread dont seem to work.

The German link put up by 'foiling around' is working for me

Boo Boo
-2nd July 2007, 14:18
Really happy for Neil, one of the nicest people that I have met in fencing and it is really good to see the hard work paying off. Well Done!!!

Indeed :) . Well done Neil.

Unlucky for the girls, though (Claire had a couple of 5:4 losses - so close) - the WF competition looks amazingly tough. Very good luck to them in the team event :)

Boo

Jan O'C
-2nd July 2007, 14:45
This competition is incredibly hard - certainly harder than the Senior Worlds has been for the past couple of years. 4 fencers from each country instead of 3 and no weak countries. I think Alex was bottom seed in his poule by about 100 places (might be considerably more) so that gives you an idea of the level! Well done to Neil, winning one extra poule fight than Alex makes all the difference.

Jan O'C
-2nd July 2007, 15:03
Amazing, I have just looked at the poule fights - not a single fencer in the whole of the MS won all of their poule fights!

madfencer
-2nd July 2007, 18:18
Well done to all the fencers from GB who took part, especially Neil and Anna. This was obviously a very tough competition as Jan O'C has just highlighted with the pool statistics.

Red
-2nd July 2007, 18:20
In the first MS semi final, Pina of Spain beats Romania's Covaliu 15-11.

Red
-2nd July 2007, 18:32
In the all Russian semi final, Yaminenko has beaten Pozdniakov 15-11

Red
-2nd July 2007, 19:13
And Jorge Pina is European Champion!

cesh_fencing
-2nd July 2007, 19:35
This competition is incredibly hard - certainly harder than the Senior Worlds has been for the past couple of years. 4 fencers from each country instead of 3 and no weak countries.

This is the European Championships which is the strongest region so will logically be stronger than the Worlds (though smaller) as you do have less weak nations taking part as a ratio. Maybe the qualifying standard for the Europeans should match that of the Worlds and be enforced... Today we only had 2 fencers competing who had qualified by my reckoning and one of them failed to get a win in the poule.

Copied from an old thread so not my words-
Nations with a reputation for sending weak fencers get rougher treatment from the referees.(if you are the rabbit nation if in doubt a referee gives the piont against you).
My words again - Hope this does not negatively effect our foilists or sabreurs longer term or even later in the week.

pigeonmeister
-2nd July 2007, 20:27
Eugyenia Lamononva (Rus) wins WF.

To continue from a previous theme- she didn't get to 15 in her L16, L8, L4 or final..

To be fair Vezzali (2nd) made it to 15 in all but the final (which was 13-12) But 3/6 of her poule fights didn't reach 5

cesh_fencing
-3rd July 2007, 10:01
Well done to Jo and Ladies Epee.

100% qualification for our ladies team to the DE.. Shows the strict qualifying standards are applicable.

Looks like she will have a hard match in the L64 as had Flessel-Colovic 4th seed after 1st round.

Good luck

tigger
-3rd July 2007, 11:41
Has anyone noticed the seeds left in the WE for the L16:

Numbers 4, 5, 8, 11...fair enough

Then numbers 20, 31, 33, 35, 39, 41, 47, 49, 53, 55! (with 2 results left to come)

This could mean either:
A - Epee has incredible depth and is the toughest weapon
or
B - Epee is incredibly random and good fencers can lose to lesser fencers more easily than in the other two weapons!

Obviously as a sabreur I prefer option B :-)

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 11:55
So, MF is underway. I thought Cookie had a 5-3 win and then it went to 0-0 unless that's his next match.

Lawrence currently 4-1 down to a Croation.

ChubbyHubby
-3rd July 2007, 11:55
Well done to Jo and Ladies Epee.

100% qualification for our ladies team to the DE.. Shows the strict qualifying standards are applicable.



I agree that if there are qualifying standards they should be enforced, however, should the qualification standard be so high so that we are always sending incomplete teams? Just so that we can say 100% got through the first round? (which in this case is 1 out of 1)

At the moment, obviously the qualification standards are being applied to some but not others on a fairly arbitary* basis. (Essentially if you are not in their programme you have to prove yourself more than the people who are).

*or more accurately there is probably a "policy" but it is not public, and hidden behind an attempt to make it appear as if it were transparent process.

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 11:56
I think Lawrence just lost. Anyway, back to work for me....!

Boo Boo
-3rd July 2007, 13:22
Men's Foil, First Round:
- Richard Kruse 5/6
- James Beevers 5/6
- Laurence Halsted 3/6
- Keith Cook 2/6

Keith didn't make the cut :(. Laurence through to the L32. James and Richard still waiting to fence their L64 fights.

Boo Boo
-3rd July 2007, 13:39
Richard Kruse out (15:10) to Caplliure (ESP) in the L64 I think.

Boo

cesh_fencing
-3rd July 2007, 14:04
I agree that if there are qualifying standards they should be enforced, however, should the qualification standard be so high so that we are always sending incomplete teams? Just so that we can say 100% got through the first round? (which in this case is 1 out of 1)

At the moment, obviously the qualification standards are being applied to some but not others on a fairly arbitary* basis. (Essentially if you are not in their programme you have to prove yourself more than the people who are).

*or more accurately there is probably a "policy" but it is not public, and hidden behind an attempt to make it appear as if it were transparent process.

Have to say that the qualifiying standards are extremely low for the Europeans. All that is required is 2 last 64s (in to top 50% of comp) or 1 last 32 (at decent level event)
If our fencers cannot hit that level they will be destroyed when they go to these championships.

With all the opportunities the funded athletes are getting and number of A'grades being attended, if they are not hitting 2 L64s in a year it is a worry...

Boo Boo
-3rd July 2007, 14:12
Is it me or is the wbesite being a pain? Can't seem to access the tableau...

Richard Kruse definitely out - I THINK in the L64 (but couldn't access the tableau to check). Lost James Beevers altogether - one minute he was on the "progress" page at 0:0, then he disappeared... no idea :confused:

Boo

tigger
-3rd July 2007, 14:20
Most of the funded athletes have been funded for a very short time, and most have only just started any new or additional training. It will take at least another 12 months to have meaningful results which will reflect what's really happening with these athletes.

I am a critic of the way things have been run for pathway athletes, but I don't think we can yet start blaming those athletes for poor results, when most of them have only just emerged from the 'enthusiastic amateur' ranks...

Rudd
-3rd July 2007, 14:20
I think Beevers won his first DE 15-14.

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 14:21
Richard Kruse out (15:10) to Caplliure (ESP) in the L64 I think.

Boo


Sorry I had to check as I didn't believe it at first! Ouch.

James and Lawrence through to L32 (15-14 and 15-4 respectively). Both due to fight in just under an hour.

rory
-3rd July 2007, 14:28
Beevers has POGREBNYAK Andriy (UKR)
Halsted has GANEEV Renal (RUS)

I hadn't heard of the Ukrainian before; seems he's a recent graduate to Senior level, having had a 32 at last year's Jr Worlds. Currently ranked 187th in the World so on paper he's having a very good day indeed.
James has beaten him before.

Ganeev is very good indeed; 4th in Athens, though oddly he's never been inside the top 20 rankings (that I can see on the FIE site anyway, it only lists end-of-season rankings). Maybe a little inconsistent?
He's fenced Laurence once before, and Ganeev won 15-11.

PS. Think Cookie was a little unlucky to get cut, having won 2 and losing one fight 5-4. Ouch.

The FIE site is truly a goldmine of information ;)

cesh_fencing
-3rd July 2007, 14:31
Has anyone noticed the seeds left in the WE for the L16:
Numbers 4, 5, 8, 11...fair enough
Then numbers 20, 31, 33, 35, 39, 41, 47, 49, 53, 55! (with 2 results left to come)
This could mean either:
A - Epee has incredible depth and is the toughest weapon
or
B - Epee is incredibly random and good fencers can lose to lesser fencers more easily than in the other two weapons!
Obviously as a sabreur I prefer option B :-)

Because the top 16 in the world never usually have to do poules the first round results can be a bit wierd whatever the weapon. The second seed after the first round is ranked 118 in the world currently and Nagy, Olympic Champion and currently 4th in world rankings was only 22nd seed. There have been some unfortunate draws with top fencers hitting each other due to the randomness of poule results. No. 1 & 2 in world rankings made the last 8 and met each other with No2 beating No1.

To cover your points
A) Probably true, it is the most popular weapon at International level with biggest entries from nearly every country that has fencing so no single/group of countries or fencers can get that far above the rest of the field so the field starts at a closer level.
B) Epee has the greatest chance of producing close fights due to the scoring of doubles etc. This results in closer fights and can mean that if a top fencer is only a couple of %age points below their best a lower ranked fencer can really take advantage. If foil or sabre, usually even when below their best the high ranked fencer will win.

Historically however when you look at World Champs and Olympics it is the really top fencers that usually win those events at Epee, Kolobkov, Nagy etc so when it matters and the top fencers are really focused anbd on their game 100% the correct fencers usually win.

This is why Epee is by far the superior weapon as the results are not as predictable as foil or sabe and the underdog has a chance of winning now & then...

pigeonmeister
-3rd July 2007, 14:35
Seems like the young Ukranian is having a very good day- he beat Beevers 15-6

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 14:40
Seems like the young Ukranian is having a very good day- he beat Beevers 15-6

B****r.

Go Lawrence - he's on now.

rory
-3rd July 2007, 14:44
Seems like the young Ukranian is having a very good day- he beat Beevers 15-6

No kidding.
James was 4-0 up very quickly - I guess the Ukrainian took a while to wake up!
2 referees listed for that fight, I wonder why?

He'll be fencing either Le Pechoux or Khovansky next.

(Ganeev 5-3 on Laurence as I type)

cesh_fencing
-3rd July 2007, 14:48
Most of the funded athletes have been funded for a very short time, and most have only just started any new or additional training. It will take at least another 12 months to have meaningful results which will reflect what's really happening with these athletes.

I am a critic of the way things have been run for pathway athletes, but I don't think we can yet start blaming those athletes for poor results, when most of them have only just emerged from the 'enthusiastic amateur' ranks...
I am not blaiming the fencers; the ones who have got to the event with 'golden tickets' have been put in a very difficult situation. Go and get slaughtered, don't go and get removed from funding. (I suspect).

With the GB retutation at stake, and the number of chances these fencers had to qualify (8+ events for all of the Ladies Foilists), they are clearly out of their depth at this level at the moment.

Ultimately this year I feel that Keith's points about 'partial teams' from last year are very valid as the non-qualified funded athletes have not had time to improve enough to compete..

Possibly they would have done better this year if they had been training rather than flying around the world (on BF funding) and getting knocked out at most of the events 1st round.

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 14:50
He's fought back from 6-3 down to 8-7 down.

8-8 now

pigeonmeister
-3rd July 2007, 15:01
Either the website is slow or there is an injury/disruption. They have fenced less than 30 secs in the last 5 or 6 mins...stil 8-8

JohnL
-3rd July 2007, 15:02
Its stopped at 8-8 for 10 minutes now.

Have they both died!!!!

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 15:02
Either the website is slow or there is an injury/disruption. They have fenced less than 30 secs in the last 5 or 6 mins...stil 8-8

You took the letters right from my keyboard.........

Wonder what it is?

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 15:06
He's 11-8 down now...........

rory
-3rd July 2007, 15:13
12-11 down at the moment, nice comeback

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 15:13
Was 12-9 down then I blinked, 12-11 down!

pigeonmeister
-3rd July 2007, 15:14
Come onnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 15:15
13-11 :eek:

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 15:16
Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage


Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 15:17
14-13 :eek: :eek: :eek:

Wait 30 seconds my arse - this is real time reporting!!!

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 15:21
It's finished but I didn;t get a chance to see the result and "tournament name could not be retrieved" is all I can see. :mad:

pigeonmeister
-3rd July 2007, 15:23
it gave up on me as well- fingers crossed.....

Kepster
-3rd July 2007, 15:26
Out 15-13 I'm afraid - it looks like the website's struggling to cope with the number of visitors at the moment

pigeonmeister
-3rd July 2007, 15:32
Bugger...would have been a sensational win- fantastic effort Laurence.

Spider5
-3rd July 2007, 15:35
Out 15-13 I'm afraid - it looks like the website's struggling to cope with the number of visitors at the moment

Dammit.

2 L32, 1 L64 and 1 cut.

Bit of a bruising to say the least but great fight from Lawrence - the delay can't have helped.

On second thoughts, maybe it did!

Red
-3rd July 2007, 15:54
Silver to a 64? Was this year just an unfortunate draw or is it something to do with the Olympics being a year away?

Rudd
-3rd July 2007, 15:58
Who knows but much tougher European's this year. Last year France and Germany sent weaker teams and Italy basically sent no one at all. As you said Olympics is getting close.

cesh_fencing
-3rd July 2007, 17:19
Who knows but much tougher European's this year. Last year France and Germany sent weaker teams and Italy basically sent no one at all. As you said Olympics is getting close.

This year the Europeans was logically going to be strong...

This is the first Europeans to count as a World Cup points winning event, in addition it is in the period to count towards 2008 Olympic Qualifying.

In past years the Europeans was almost classed as a 2nd class event and the bigger countries sent 'development' & 'potential' fencers in many cases, this year as it counts for something the top fencers are all here.

Boo Boo
-4th July 2007, 09:44
ME First Round:
- James Taylor 3 out of 6
- Tom Cadman won 2 out of 5
- Jon Willis 2 out of 6
- Tom Bennett 2 out of 6

Unfortunately only James and Tom Cadman made the cut.

Tom is currently fencing Cazereck (BEL) for a place in the L64. Tom is 3:2 up :)

WS hasn't started yet

Boo

Boo Boo
-4th July 2007, 09:57
Tom wins 15:9 :)

cesh_fencing
-4th July 2007, 10:04
Well done TC & JT.. Keep it up..

Boo Boo
-4th July 2007, 10:05
Tom wins 15:9 :)

Oh and James has a bye through to the L64 (missed that bit) - so both in the L64 now :)

Boo

FEMTO
-4th July 2007, 10:52
James Taylor is leading 8-4 against Luis Jose Abajo

FEMTO
-4th July 2007, 10:57
It's now 12-8 to James - All he has to do now is just double his way through! Go James go!

FEMTO
-4th July 2007, 10:58
14 -11 Just one away

FEMTO
-4th July 2007, 11:02
Oh no abajo is catching up 14-13

pigeonmeister
-4th July 2007, 11:06
14-14 ahhhh!

FEMTO
-4th July 2007, 11:09
Boy that was one close fight! Abajo came back to make it 14-14, kin the end Taylor wins 15-14. Taylor sure had my heart racing for a sec!

pigeonmeister
-4th July 2007, 11:11
The site keeps crashing...just when its getting exciting too!

FEMTO
-4th July 2007, 11:11
Yeah tell me about it! Dotn knwo whats happenign with Cadman, his fight has not even started!

rory
-4th July 2007, 11:33
TC out 15-12 to Jermoe Jeannet in the L64.
Taylor's got Tourchine in the L32

Bandit
-4th July 2007, 11:47
Live fencing on Eurosport yesterday, womens epee and mens foil, semi's and finals. On from 5pm until 7.30pm.

More live fencing on Thursday on Eurosport from 4pm till 7pm.

Red
-4th July 2007, 12:02
WS

Katie - 2/5

Others are still fencing.

Red
-4th July 2007, 12:09
WS

Jo - 3/5
Chrystall - 0/5

Red
-4th July 2007, 12:10
In the ME, JT is 8-2 down.

Edit - now 4 - 11

And in WS, Louise - 2/5

pigeonmeister
-4th July 2007, 12:11
Should be enough for Jo and katie to progress....

madfencer
-4th July 2007, 12:16
Well done to James and Tom and good luck to the women's sabbies!

Red
-4th July 2007, 12:19
For some reason the control bit isn't available for ME at all - Does anyone know if JT made it?

Red
-4th July 2007, 12:30
And he's out 15-5.

A 32 and a 64 in a field of 100 and something

Red
-4th July 2007, 12:34
Katie just missed the cut (35th).
Louise and Jo are still in.

Red
-4th July 2007, 12:41
Louise (34th - JUST made the cut) meets Touya (FRA) in the 64
Jo (16th) has a bye to the 32 where she meets Vougiouka (GRE).

AussieMongrel
-4th July 2007, 12:59
Go JO JO!!!!!

Red
-4th July 2007, 14:06
Louise is in the 32 - she meets Kharlan (UKR, 2nd seed)

Red
-4th July 2007, 14:14
Louise is in the 32 - she meets Kharlan (UKR, 2nd seed)

She got through her 64 on assault point! Eek!:eek:

Boo Boo
-4th July 2007, 14:24
How are you following this, I just can't seem to get through to the results website (keeps timing out for me :( ).

Spending the day database testing AND can't get the European's results... :(

Was there no "4th Sabreur"? What about Jess?

Very good luck to JoJo & Louise :)

Boo

cesh_fencing
-4th July 2007, 14:26
Was there no "4th Sabreur"? What about Jess?

Kaite Hendra, Crystal Nichol, Jo-Jo and Louise.

tigger
-4th July 2007, 14:26
Jo, Louise, Katie and Chrystall in the individual.
Jo, Louise, Chrystall and Jess in the team

A great L64 win for Louise - couldn't have been a much harder draw.

Can't help feeling that it's v unlucky to be eliminated on 2 wins and 3 defeats in a tough pool... :-(

Red
-4th July 2007, 14:28
Summary of WS

Katie just missed the cut with 2/5
Chrystall missed the cut with 0/5
Louise just made the cut with 2/5
JoJo made it with 3/5
Louise got into the 32 on assault point, JoJo had a bye.
32s are yet to fence.

How am I getting results? Persistence.

Boo Boo
-4th July 2007, 14:33
Thanks Red and everyone else... I should have looked back another page on this thread and I could have answered my own question :)

Indeed - Touya was a tough opponent to beat to get into the L32.

Is Kharlan the current cadet/junior world champ (or something similar) or am I getting confused with another fencer with a similar name?

Good luck to both JoJo and Louise...

Will keep employing persistence myself - would love to be able to follow this on the results site too...

Boo


Summary of WS

Katie just missed the cut with 2/5
Chrystall missed the cut with 0/5
Louise just made the cut with 2/5
JoJo made it with 3/5
Louise got into the 32 on assault point, JoJo had a bye.
32s are yet to fence.

How am I getting results? Persistence.

Red
-4th July 2007, 14:44
JoJo is 8-5 down at the break.

cesh_fencing
-4th July 2007, 14:45
Jo-Jo was 5-2 up at one point, at min break 8-5 down against VOUGIOUKA Vassiliki Gre

Red
-4th July 2007, 14:52
JoJo is out 15 - 12 (last 32)

Red
-4th July 2007, 15:16
Louise is in the last 16!!!!
She beat the second seed Kharlan 15-9!!!
She faces Marzocca (ITA) in the last 16.

Lee Spiers
-4th July 2007, 15:24
Louise is in the last 16!!!!
She beat the second seed Kharlan 15-9!!!
She faces Marzocca (ITA) in the last 16.
is there anywhere for live results>?

Red
-4th July 2007, 15:27
There's a link on the first page of this thread - it's going very slowly tho... Its the one that begins 212.34.165:8080

Lee Spiers
-4th July 2007, 15:31
EH?

The website declined to show this webpage

HTTP 403
Most likely causes:


This website requires you to log in. What you can try:

res://ieframe.dll/bullet.png Go back to the previous page.

res://ieframe.dll/down.png (res://ieframe.dll/http_403.htm#) More information (javascript:expandCollapse('infoBlockID', true);)

This error (HTTP 403 Forbidden) means that Internet Explorer was able to connect to the website, but it does not have permission to view the webpage.
For more information about HTTP errors, see Help.

Red
-4th July 2007, 15:32
http://212.34.165.4:8080/WAFechten/index.jsp It works...

Lee Spiers
-4th July 2007, 15:36
http://212.34.165.4:8080/WAFechten/index.jsp It works...


thanks chap! merry xmas have some rep!

Spider5
-4th July 2007, 15:36
Louise is in the last 16!!!!
She beat the second seed Kharlan 15-9!!!
She faces Marzocca (ITA) in the last 16.

'kin A as the saying goes.

Excellent result and hopefully she will benefit from the turnover.

Red
-4th July 2007, 15:42
thanks chap! merry xmas have some rep!

Thanks :D

Louise is 8-4 down at the break.

Red
-4th July 2007, 15:47
And Louise is out, 15-7 finishing 16th (as bottom seed going into the DE, there's no way she can place higher).

Marcos
-4th July 2007, 16:28
good result with a nice envelope of points to go with it

Marzocca has been a stalwart of WS for years so was always going to be a challenge

Boo Boo
-4th July 2007, 16:44
Sounds like a VERY well earned L16 :).

Looking forward to the team events over the next few days - hopefully I will have better luck accessing the results - the website has been rubbish the latter half of today... :mad: )

Boo

cesh_fencing
-4th July 2007, 17:57
So overall so far, 21 entries.

5 Last 32s and 1 Last 16.

With 11 out in first round.

Hope for a bit better luck in the teams.

madfencer
-4th July 2007, 18:18
Well done to Louise and Jo, outstanding results, especially to Louise for beating the 2nd seed!

Red
-4th July 2007, 18:25
The FIE ranking system looks incredibly flawed. The top ranked fencers can't fence poule fights - they only need to fence in poules one or two times per year, so that when they do fence in poules they meet each other in the DE far too early and get knocked out. To stop this happening, the World/Zonal Championships need running like GPs or vice-versa.
Come on - when does the 34th seed knock out the 2nd seed? Somebody who scrapes through the poules should NOT be knocking out someone who breezed through.

Glue Boy
-4th July 2007, 18:53
Is Kharlan the current cadet/junior world champ (or something similar) or am I getting confused with another fencer with a similar name?

She came 2nd or 3rd in the cadets, cant remeber exactly.. Then she won the Juniors.


At the europeans I can imagine its not un-heard of for the 34th to knock out the 2nd. All the top countries have sent all their top fencers. Apart from maybe the Azerbazian team most of the people there are top fencers. So all have the ability to knock each other out. Its not hard to muck up a poole anyway, 5 hits isn't many. Lousie would probably normally deserve to be a higher seed.

Red
-4th July 2007, 19:15
Lousie would probably normally deserve to be a higher seed.

She was one hit away from not making it at all...
Louise had ind. of -5 and HS of 15, Katie had -6 and 17

Glue Boy
-4th July 2007, 19:18
5 hits can be quite random.. The DE normally puts things right. Louise would normally do better in the pooles.. but made up for it the DEs.

Red
-4th July 2007, 19:20
Indeed, I was merely pointing out how incredibly lucky she was (or rather how unlucky Katie was) that she had that chance.

Gangsta G
-5th July 2007, 03:54
What Glue Boy says is very true, if you look at the DE tableaus from previous Cadet & Junior World Championships (I expect the same is true with Seniors but am not sure), the DE is often a complete carve-up with higher seeded fencers being knocked out left, right and centre, obviously at youth level this can to a certain extent be explained by the amount of 999 seeds, but essentially it is because everyone is more or less the same standard, so anyone can beat anyone.

Boo Boo
-5th July 2007, 10:06
Oooh, website working today.... personally I reckon it is the Americans that killed it yesterday: things were fine until about noon (when the US starts waking up...).

In the WF GB (10th seed) fence GER (7th seed) for a place in the L8. Currently 37:11 down.

In MS:
- L16: GER (6th seed) bt GB (11th seed) 45:16
- 9-12: POL bt GBR 45:27
- 11-12: GB about to fence BEL Currently 40:38 down.

Good luck to both teams :)

Boo

Boo Boo
-5th July 2007, 10:12
MS just lost 45:44. I only caught the last fight (Alex against Van Holsbeke), but Alex was a hit ot two down through the fight before catching up to 44:44 (I don't think I breathed again until the next hit was scored :eek: )

WF 41: 15 down.

Boo Boo
-5th July 2007, 10:30
WF GB lost to GER 44:20 on time.

GB now fence Austria for 9th place (there are 10 teams in the competition - so only one match to fence for final placing). Think they will fence in about an hour.

Boo Boo
-5th July 2007, 12:05
GB WF currently 24:29 down against Austria.

cesh_fencing
-5th July 2007, 12:31
And lost 43 - 41

pinkelephant
-5th July 2007, 15:53
GBR currently 12th out of 33 nations.

cesh_fencing
-5th July 2007, 20:12
Without winning a match today GBR has jumped from 12th to 10th in the nations rankings by scoring 16 ranking points..

We only got 16 points for the L16 and L32 from Lou and Jo-Jo in the ladies Sabre so this Nations ranking is a bit strange if you can get so many points for coming last twice!!

All in all we need some strong performances over the next couple of days..

Certainly feel that the Mens Epee team will perform well. With Portugal in the first round there is a real chance of getting through the L32 to face France (& catch then cold) in the last 16.. Go for it guys.

Maxim
-5th July 2007, 20:59
After 4 days.

Russia - 3 Golds, 3 Silvers, 2 Bronze

We are flying!!!!!!!!

Lee Spiers
-5th July 2007, 21:52
Certainly feel that the Mens Epee team will perform well. With Portugal in the first round there is a real chance of getting through the L32 to face France (& catch then cold) in the last 16.. Go for it guys.
would be brilliant to see them live on eurosport.....

3 Card Trick
-5th July 2007, 23:33
Let's not lose sight of the fact that at this the strongest Europeans for many a year we are 10th out of 33, showing the benefit of having all 6 weapons represented.

Compared with last year our performance in this tougher event is encouraging. To be precise we had 9 fencers in 2006 who made the cut and achieved a 64 or better. This year we have 10.

I'm just going to say well done to all of them.

madfencer
-5th July 2007, 23:43
Indeed, I agre with 3CT there, GBR has done very well and we mustn't put down their achievements. Whilst some fencers results we may have hoped to have been better this was a tough Europeans and being placed 10th out of 33 is a good achievement for sure.

Good luck to the ME team....kick ass! :cool:

cesh_fencing
-6th July 2007, 01:12
Compared with last year our performance in this tougher event is encouraging. To be precise we had 9 fencers in 2006 who made the cut and achieved a 64 or better. This year we have 10.

Where are last years results, it would seem that the Ismre result site is not available any more.

silvercross
-6th July 2007, 09:22
They would be here:

http://www.eurofencing.info/EfcEng/Htm/IZMIR_2006.htm

Maxim
-6th July 2007, 09:27
Yakimenko won the last fight of mens team sabre semi-final 14-4!!! Anybody knows whether there is a video available anywhere?

Maxim
-6th July 2007, 09:32
And France nearly lost the bronze medal match - 5-21 (?!!???!!) in the last fight!

silvercross
-6th July 2007, 09:33
I think Eurosport have highlights, but it might just be of the last point.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/

They still have the men's foil finals and women's epee highlights on the website, but should be updating it. The men's team sabre was on their morning news show.

Lapkes (BLR) was not a happy man in that match...

All of the sabreurs kept slipping and sliding on the carpet piste...

Maxim
-6th July 2007, 09:54
<quote>Lapkes (BLR) was not a happy man in that match...<quote>

Which match is that?

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 09:55
I think Eurosport have highlights, but it might just be of the last point.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/

They still have the men's foil finals and women's epee highlights on the website, but should be updating it. The men's team sabre was on their morning news show.

Lapkes (BLR) was not a happy man in that match...

All of the sabreurs kept slipping and sliding on the carpet piste...

Last night we watched the WF and MS team gold medal matchs from yesterday and the ME and WS individual semis (most of the semis) and the finals from the day before. All was recorded yesterday.

Boo

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 10:04
MF GB (7th seed) lost to BLR (10th seed) 45:42 in the L16. They are currently fencing BEL for the 9-16 and are 29:24 up :)

No GB WE team today, of course. There is a bit of me wondering if having a WE team etered would have helped us climb further up the league of nations...? That was an interesting observation of cesh's (combined with, until now maybe, the BFAs reluctance to send full teams to events like this - I am pretty sure that the "league of nations" has always been one of the statistics that UKSport has measured the BFA on...).

Boo

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 10:06
(by the way you have to love the option for "action replay appeal" now... Just saw Laurence 33:26 up against BEL, then the score was knocked back to 32:26 - I am assuming that was because of a successful appeal by BEL...

silvercross
-6th July 2007, 10:09
Apologies, The match Lapkes was in was the second to last against Pozdniakov (and yes, Lapkes was not a happy bunny).

Yakimenko against Buikevich was also fairly one sided.

The slippery piste made it a bit of a hectic match. Both sides had to constantly go out of the piste to clean their shoes from either humidity or dust.

Eurosport should be showing a good deal of action today as well.

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 10:21
(by the way you have to love the option for "action replay appeal" now... Just saw Laurence 33:26 up against BEL, then the score was knocked back to 32:26 - I am assuming that was because of a successful appeal by BEL...

GB beat BEL 45:30 :D

So that puts GB in the playoff for 9-12. They next draw POL (who were 6th seed going into the original DE). That should start in about 25 minutes.

Boo

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 10:24
Apologies, The match Lapkes was in was the second to last against Pozdniakov (and yes, Lapkes was not a happy bunny).

Yakimenko against Buikevich was also fairly one sided.

The slippery piste made it a bit of a hectic match. Both sides had to constantly go out of the piste to clean their shoes from either humidity or dust.

As far as the MS team Gold Medal match goes... have you ever seen so many scarey men grouped together before? Chubby thought any one of them could have got a role as a "henchman" in the next Bond movie... :whistle: :D

Boo

silvercross
-6th July 2007, 10:28
As far as the MS team Gold Medal match goes... have you ever seen so many scarey men grouped together before? Chubby thought any one of them could have got a role as a "henchman" in the next Bond movie... :whistle: :D

Boo

Only one?...:whistle:

'So, Mr. Bond, you may know how to fence Epee, but you must now face...the Sabre Suicide Squad!':sabre2:

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 10:33
Only one?...:whistle:

'So, Mr. Bond, you may know how to fence Epee, but you must now face...the Sabre Suicide Squad!':sabre2:

All of them... we were watching the match and Chubby says "oh, the henchman is on again" and I say "no, THAT one on the other end is the henchman!", then we realise "they ALL look like henchmen!".

The other scarey thing is that the mullet seems to be the "hairstyle of choice" of the top international male sabreurs... :eek: (God, I hope that trend doesn't spread to the GB Sabre Circuit)

(Sorry, it is Friday AND I am still VAGUELY on top... :cool: )

Boo

silvercross
-6th July 2007, 10:42
S'OK. I'm vaguely awake at the moment myself (though been at work for the past... gosh! two hours?!)

I thought one of the female foilists from hungary was also sporting a mullet-esque hairdo. My other half looked at it and could only mutter 'that's a bit manly'. Must be a Eastern-european style thing.

Could see the benefits of the mullet in fencing, though. Still looks like you've got long hair when you've got the mask on, but without the constant worry of having it suddenly creep up in front of your face in the mask when you're about to parry...

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 11:05
Could see the benefits of the mullet in fencing, though. Still looks like you've got long hair when you've got the mask on, but without the constant worry of having it suddenly creep up in front of your face in the mask when you're about to parry...

There was certainly NOTHING going to even attempt to "creep up" on the RUS and BLR MS teams last night...

GB MF Team (sporting good haircuts and NOT looking like Bond henchmen last time I saw them...) are currently 10:6 up on POL :) . This will be tough, but they are off to a good start.

Boo

cesh_fencing
-6th July 2007, 11:26
Compared with last year our performance in this tougher event is encouraging. To be precise we had 9 fencers in 2006 who made the cut and achieved a 64 or better. This year we have 10.

I feel that the results by our top fencers have good as a base to work from considering the strength of the event, through not as spectacular as last year in a couple of cases.

Generally I feel that comparisons should be relavent. To win 2 poule fights and scrap into the DE (as last seed) is an achievement as a stepping stone for the future and good for experience, but in BF eyes is actually not good enough to secure points for your british rankings so really is a bit of a strange basis for comparing performances.

Using British Fencings own ranking scheme system for points, i.e. top 50% of entries and getting through at least 1 round of DE would mean 5 points winning scores in 2006 and exactly the same in 2007, considering the strength of the event, this is arguably a step forward for some.

Once the BF ranking points are actually calculated it would be interesting to know how the total BF points total compares as the nifs will reflect the respective strength of the events.

As far as I can see everyone of the fencers who reached the BF points level were fencers who had reached the minimum qualifying standards by British Fencing Guidelines, so proves that these are good indicators of performance and selection.

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 12:15
GB Men's Foil loose to POL 45:39

That puts them in the play-off for 11th and 12th place against 16th seed Portugal. That should start in about 15 minutes.

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 12:55
That puts them in the play-off for 11th and 12th place against 16th seed Portugal. That should start in about 15 minutes.

GB currently 16:8 up against Portugal :)

Tubby
-6th July 2007, 12:58
Caught the ME finals yesterday, how scarey to hear that the top 3 French ME were not there and the 4th string won at a canter (according to Chambers on Eurosport) (on that, just how rubbish is the commentary, missing cards and getting the phrasing wrong, saying the card was for arm covering when it was for head covering, ditto when it was for corp a corp and how heavy does the breathing need to be).

3 Card Trick
-6th July 2007, 12:59
O.K. so we now have two analyses of the last two years results, both show improvement given that the event this year is much harder than last year. So again I say - Well done to you all.

Dare I say good luck and good fortune for the future, or is praise out of fashion this season?

My cup is always half full unless you knocked my arm and spilt it!

pigeonmeister
-6th July 2007, 13:09
GBR up 30-17 Kicking ass!!!!!!!!!!

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 13:10
(on that, just how rubbish is the commentary, missing cards and getting the phrasing wrong, saying the card was for arm covering when it was for head covering, ditto when it was for corp a corp and how heavy does the breathing need to be).

Oh well at least there is someone in addition to James Chambers - so he mumbles to someone else rather than himself :rolleyes:

It was quite funny after watching the WF team final (which looked very much like going to time until the last RUS fencer had to try anything and everything and the fight ended up going to 45), the new commentator made a comment in the early stages of the MS team final regarding whether the match would get to the full 45 hits... :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

I think there were some other classic quotes, but that one stick in my mind :) (an example of a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...)

Boo

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 13:12
GBR up 30-17 Kicking ass!!!!!!!!!!

I think that they were unlucky to draw POL in the 9-12 round... (they could have had POL, POR or ESP in that round...)

Boo

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 13:24
GBR up 30-17 Kicking ass!!!!!!!!!!

Have finished kicking a*se (rear end as opposed to donkey ;) ) 45:23 :not_worth :)

Boo

Maxim
-6th July 2007, 13:44
If they were doing that against Poland that would be "kicking a*se", against Portugal is just doing what they are supposed to do. But well done anyway.

Tubby
-6th July 2007, 14:17
It was quite funny after watching the WF team final (which looked very much like going to time until the last RUS fencer had to try anything and everything and the fight ended up going to 45) Honest I'm not having a go at WF even tho' I did on the Why is WF so boring thread, but I fell asleep watching that last night when it was something like 4-7 after 4 fights. However if it went to 45 I might just have to watch it, on second thought, nah.

Tubby
-6th July 2007, 14:33
Talk about cagey, ME GB v Por, into 4th fight of 9, 1:30 minutes left of that and the score is 3:4

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 14:35
Honest I'm not having a go at WF even tho' I did on the Why is WF so boring thread, but I fell asleep watching that last night when it was something like 4-7 after 4 fights. However if it went to 45 I might just have to watch it, on second thought, nah.

Chubby and I actually thought it was quite good! Still I had spent the previous 2 hours solid refereeing foil at the club (virtually all the fencers I refereed were men) - so maybe the WF Gold Medal match was just refreshingly so much better than what I had seen earlier in the night...

Thought the Hungarian Match strategy was very good and obviously effective - on paper the Russians had a much stronger team. But that may well be a very common strategy - use your fencers to gain a 3/4/5 hit lead, then just hold that lead (or sub someone in who can - like Varga... very effective at holding a lead). As has been mentioned on other threads, even at world level, WF are not aiming to get to 45... just to get ahead and then hold it.

Boo

Tubby
-6th July 2007, 14:44
Granted there were some great hits particularly the riposte with disengage into the high line, it was all the bouncing and tap tap tap and short attacks zzzzzzzzzzzz.

ME into 6th fight 7-6 up, come on! Now 8-6.

cesh_fencing
-6th July 2007, 14:49
TC does a 5-0 and get 12-6 lead for the team JT on now.

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 14:51
I thought that the ME was supposed to be tomorrow? As Threestain has correctly copied from the official schedule - http://www.eurofencing2007.org/eng/Program.aspx

Is WS team still tomorrow?

Boo


Just thought you would like to know the site for the Europeans:

http://www.eurofencing2007.org/eng/

Everything starts Monday:

Individual
2/7/7 = MS & WF
3/7/7 = WE & MF
4/7/7 = ME & WS

Team
5/7/7 = WF & MS
6/7/7 = MF & WE
7/7/7 = ME & WS

These are in order on the day too.

Good luck - I know the team went out yesterday (which I personally think is too early, especially when it's only in Belgium.)

cesh_fencing
-6th July 2007, 14:57
14-8 into 8th match Jonny Willis vs Pequito

cesh_fencing
-6th July 2007, 15:02
Jonny takes the lead to 18-11 after a brief comeback from the opposition.

cesh_fencing
-6th July 2007, 15:14
TC and the Mens Epeeists win in the main tableux, next scalp to take are the French

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 15:17
TC and the Mens Epeeists win in the main tableux, next scalp to take are the French

Fantastic! :) .

Interestingly 3 of the 5 fights on screen went to time (and not the full 45 hits...)

Boo

Tubby
-6th July 2007, 15:28
I thought they all went to time.

Lee Spiers
-6th July 2007, 15:53
Fantastic! :) .

Interestingly 3 of the 5 fights on screen went to time (and not the full 45 hits...)

Boo

is the ME on eurosport at 5?

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 16:01
is the ME on eurosport at 5?

Chubby thinks so (he set the Sky+ box last night...). Shame they don't have Eurosport at the gym (got SkySport 1, 2 and 3 - just no eurosport :rolleyes: )... will have to content myself with Wimbledon for the next couple of hours.

Boo

madfencer
-6th July 2007, 17:18
Well done to the MEists so far! Keep it going lads!

Lee Spiers
-6th July 2007, 19:00
no ME on live then?

cesh_fencing
-6th July 2007, 19:25
I thought that the ME was supposed to be tomorrow? As Threestain has correctly copied from the official schedule - http://www.eurofencing2007.org/eng/Program.aspx

Is WS team still tomorrow?

Boo

As ME is the largest event and is the only one that most countries send fencers to; it has to have a L32 rounds the day early so they keep to schedule tomorrow.

Well done again to the Mens Epeeists. It has to be their aim to at least beat their starting seeding and they really do have a great chance now..

thedoc
-6th July 2007, 19:28
ME is on tomorrow. the stuff they were doing today was a first qualifying round. main draw starts as 8am belgian time.

it seems like a fairly common tactic in epee team competitions to keep it very cagey until the last fight and then the top two guys go off like a frog in a sock. i've seen some 17-15 last fight scorelines before. entertaining stuff.

Boo Boo
-6th July 2007, 19:32
Ah thank you! That makes sense :)

Boo

cesh_fencing
-6th July 2007, 19:33
Indeed, I agre with 3CT there, GBR has done very well and we mustn't put down their achievements. Whilst some fencers results we may have hoped to have been better this was a tough Europeans and being placed 10th out of 33 is a good achievement for sure.
:

Dropped down to 12th again, probably due to a lack of Ladies Epee team.. Possibly if there were some Lady Epeeists on the Pathway scheme we would have had a team to get points for the Nations Cup however they performed.

If the object is chasing places in the Nations cup, surely we should send a full team in every event???

Does anyone know what British Fencing's criteria for success is at this European Champs.. I am sure there must be some target of points/results/finalists/medalists?

thedoc
-7th July 2007, 00:27
you know what i was saying about epee teams going crazy in the last fight? check out the poland-italy we semi final.

going into the last fight the scores were 18-11 to italy. it finished 44-29 three minutes later. who said women's epee was boring?

madfencer
-7th July 2007, 02:26
Sorry to hear we've gone back down to 12th. Still doing well though...12th out of 33! It is a shame that there weren't more WEists out there for GBR so we couldn't put a full team in. Hopefully in future years British Fencing will adress this and consider taking a full team out there to compete as it's obviously valuable experience and will give a good indication of our standard for 2012.

and that WE semi certainly didn't sound boring! Hope something wil be put on youtube of that!

cesh_fencing
-7th July 2007, 08:16
Mens Epeeists taken out by France I am afraid.

Next match Kolobkov & Co from Russia... Not a nice draw, however in Mens Epee anything can happen as shown by both No 3 & 4 seeds losing in the 16.

Well done to the Ladies Sabreurs, a safe & solid win against Azerbaijan who they were seeded above. Next match likely to be tougher against Russia the No 2 seeds.

cesh_fencing
-7th July 2007, 08:37
With Spain having a disater in the Mens Epee (out in 32) and Ladies Sabre L16. GBR have a slim chance of overhauling spains 14 point advantage in the Nations cup.

If so there is a chance of jumping to 9th today and being just below teams that sent full teams, but above all of those who did not.

SW Vet
-7th July 2007, 09:26
Womens sabre team beat AZE 45 - 29 to get into last 8, just lost to RUS to get into 4. Will now fight HUN for either 5-5 or 7-8. Will also have one more after that to confirm position.

pinkelephant
-7th July 2007, 09:34
GBR lose to Russia in ME in the extra minute. TC must have fenced a blinder to pull it back from 5 hits down in the 9th fight.

cesh_fencing
-7th July 2007, 09:48
Bad luck guys.. Mens Epee is certainly on the up and the team is truely competive internationally if they are within a point of Russia...

Holland next in 13-16 match..

cesh_fencing
-7th July 2007, 10:22
Ladies Sabre lost to Hungary and now have Germany for 7th/8th fight off.

pinkelephant
-7th July 2007, 10:28
ME match seems to be late starting.

pinkelephant
-7th July 2007, 10:54
Looks like cardds flying all over the place for non-combativity - Italy & Hungary both on reds with the score at 15-14 going into match 9, and other occurences elsewhere. Still can't find GBR.

pinkelephant
-7th July 2007, 11:05
Last bout of Norway v Ukraine was 21-15 - that's 36 hits in 3 minutes.

pinkelephant
-7th July 2007, 11:28
GBR 7th in WS, beating Germany 45-42. JoJo did a fantastic job winning the 8th bout 10-3 to hand Louise a 2 hit lead for the last bout.

cesh_fencing
-7th July 2007, 11:33
Not sure what has happened for the mens epee. On the DE tableux it shows GBR losing to Holland, on the fight score it shows them winning!!!

cesh_fencing
-7th July 2007, 15:14
Mens Epee losing to Estonia to take 16th place to match their starting seeding..

Seems like this team is getting close to the higher ranked teams, Portugal, Russia, Holland and Estonia have fencers 2nd, 12th, 8th and 21st in the world respectively so for GBR to beat Portugal and have close matches in the others they are on the right road as the team is young still (well TC is late 20s but you need the old head to go with the youngsters)...

On overall nations ranking GBR 10th out of 33 nations in total, however only 9 teams had fencers in every event, & GBR were one of them.

Nick_C
-7th July 2007, 19:54
any idea what happened in Louise B-W's final DE? 9-7 down and lost 15-7. I only asked because two referees (instead of one) are listed and opponent appears to have received a red card half way through... any ideas?

Libby
-8th July 2007, 11:25
Seems like this team is getting close to the higher ranked teams, Portugal, Russia, Holland and Estonia have fencers 2nd, 12th, 8th and 21st in the world respectively so for GBR to beat Portugal and have close matches in the others they are on the right road as the team is young still (well TC is late 20s but you need the old head to go with the youngsters)...

TC is 27, Willis is 26, Taylor is 25, Bennett is 21 - think with this range of ages I'd single Bennett out as the young one rather than TC out as the old one - though I agree, they are all still pretty young for Men's Epee.