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Red
-19th July 2007, 10:18
.... are up on the BUSA website http://www.busa.org.uk/fl/fencing_leagues.asp

Aer
-19th July 2007, 10:45
looks like its not a home and away fixture list, which is a change from last year...

monster munch
-19th July 2007, 11:06
What about the Scottish Conference? :(

doobarz
-19th July 2007, 11:20
looks like its not a home and away fixture list, which is a change from last year...

Erm well I could see which fixtures were home and which away....

Click on the team you are interested in, on the far right...

doobarz
-19th July 2007, 11:21
What about the Scottish Conference? :(

Do Scotland not sort themselves out through Scottish Student Fencing then join in at the knockouts?

Aer
-19th July 2007, 11:33
Erm well I could see which fixtures were home and which away....

Click on the team you are interested in, on the far right...

i mean you only play one match against each uni, not two...

doobarz
-19th July 2007, 11:52
i mean you only play one match against each uni, not two...

Depends on the league. Midlands Conference is only one, premiership is home and away.

Red
-19th July 2007, 12:02
Midlands girls have to fight everyone twice, men have too many to do that, but not enough for a second league (yet)

Bambi
-19th July 2007, 15:42
What about the Scottish Conference? :(


The scottish qualifiers take place usually the last weekend in october or the first in november. Either myself or the newly elected president will send out an email soon to scottish unis with dates for all the comps.

If your worried you wont get this email monster PM me your uni email and i'll will add you to the new mailing list.

monster munch
-19th July 2007, 17:28
its okay bambi... this does not affect me, its just that in previous years they have still shown Scotlands divisions with the rest.

Nick_C
-19th July 2007, 22:37
some interesting ones there... Lufbra 2nds... lol!! And NOrthampton Uni&Staffs girls in the midlands league?!?

Jules
-20th July 2007, 11:03
Well I dont know about Northampton but Staffs is in the Midlands so whats up with Staffs girls in the Midlands league eh?

Our Notts matches start later and finish earlier this year, packed in much tighter. Personally I preferred them more spread out but it will give us a smidge more time to prep the team at the beginning of the year I guess. But I'm NOT liking the prospect of a trip to Edinburgh and back in the same day...

Red
-20th July 2007, 11:13
Nick, does L'boro have the depth to worry us with the second team?
And the girls having more matches is a bit of a bugger considering 3 of our better girls are medical/PhD students

pigeonmeister
-20th July 2007, 11:53
Northamptonshire is clearly in the midlands. UEA was always the bugger for away matches in that league.

Red
-20th July 2007, 12:16
And we have them at home for the first time since I've been at Uni.
:D

pigeonmeister
-20th July 2007, 12:48
To be fair, we had to travel to Liverpool, Durham and Newcastle in last season's league. Nottingham was the only one that wasn't too bad. This year its Loughborough instead of Liverpool. We have lost our star french epeeist and best sabreur- but we are (all being well) going to gain a seriously top foilist and we usually gain a foreigner of some type...Have to see if we can hold onto our title! Northumbria have got some very strong editions I believe, but then a few losses as well. Looking forward to it!

Another fencer
-20th July 2007, 15:55
I notice that there are 12 men's second teams in BUSA (not counting the scots who will probably provide another couple), big step up from the four in 2004 (Oxford, Cambridge, Aber, Notts). A sign of our increased popularity as a sport.

Also was surprised to see Northampton on list - a couple of years ago Coventry (who have Peter Rome) pulled out at the last minute.

pigeonmeister
-20th July 2007, 16:04
I would suggest it is also an indication of more AU funding for Fencing teams. We only have a '1st' team of between 5-6 people (served us pretty well though) But like most clubs we could cobble together a 2nd team, what stops us is that our travel budget and hall rental would immediately double and this constitutes a big whack of our costs.

Our AU has been reasonably generous down the years but is now even threatening to demand 'match fees' for representing the Uni (in a University that has been in top 3 of BUSA sport with Bath and Lufbra for years) Unbelievable- but I think we are gonna tell them to get stuffed.

gbm
-20th July 2007, 20:38
Cardiff are supposed to have a 2nd men's team, but it seems we don't.
*?&*.

fencingmum
-21st July 2007, 16:59
But I'm NOT liking the prospect of a trip to Edinburgh and back in the same day...


They had plenty of one-day trips last year - about time someone else had to suffer (nothing personal!)
Try driving a couple of hundred miles, fencing, and then driving back again in one day! Shouldn't be allowed.
(Why can't teams have minibuses and a driver?)

Bambi
-21st July 2007, 23:33
They had plenty of one-day trips last year - about time someone else had to suffer (nothing personal!)
Try driving a couple of hundred miles, fencing, and then driving back again in one day! Shouldn't be allowed.
(Why can't teams have minibuses and a driver?)

Aberdeen have a minibus and driver (me) but still having to drive from aberdeen to newcastle and machester like we did for BUSA DE's is not nice. In the past 5 years aberdeen has only had one home match, its about time those south of the border ventured north.

Another fencer
-22nd July 2007, 07:34
Bambi, BUSA DEs are seeded with the higher seeds getting home matches. They also try to regionalise while keeping teams from the same conference from meeting in the L16. L4 is randomly drawn.

The solution would be have regional champs over a single weekend and then a single national weekend - getting rid of the ridiculous travelling 10 hours to fence for less than a minute on a Wednesday.

Jules
-29th July 2007, 22:29
I would vote for that!

Nick_C
-30th July 2007, 10:59
Nick, does L'boro have the depth to worry us with the second team?

Wellllll... that would be giving away our closest tactical secrets!!

silvercross
-31st July 2007, 08:42
I notice that there are 12 men's second teams in BUSA (not counting the scots who will probably provide another couple), big step up from the four in 2004 (Oxford, Cambridge, Aber, Notts). A sign of our increased popularity as a sport.

Also was surprised to see Northampton on list - a couple of years ago Coventry (who have Peter Rome) pulled out at the last minute.

Hate to be the Devil's advocate on this one ...evil... , but some Unis might be seeing second squads in fencing as a means to gain more points in the overall BUSA sports rankings.

Not taking anything at all away from the popularity of the sport (I'd love to see complete first and second divisions in each region, to be honest), but AU's are increasingly being asked to develop more competitive programmes to close the gap between the 'sport unis' and everyone else. One tactic is to do the ol' Eastern Bloc 'They may have more advanced technology but we have 25 tanks to their one and their tanks only carry 15 shells :nanananan ' mentality. Flood the programmes that aim to give you more points.

Uni 'X' might have a top class programme in sport 1, but uni 'Y' has a so-so programme, but three teams in the division, because the sport isn't popular enough to be stratified into first, second, and third divisions. At the end of the season, Uni 'X' has mopped the floor with everyone in the division, and won 40 points for doing so in the overall BUSA tables. Uni 'Y' had their teams finish middle of the pack, second from bottom and bottom, but amassed 54 points in the BUSA tables.

I apologize if anyone thinks I believe any university might think in such evil ways (again, this is merely an assumption and not backed by any solid evidence, hence playing devil's advocate), but points are points, and the possibility exists for this sort of mindframe to be seeping into AU administrators.

Now, if you'll excuse me, Tom Clancy and I need to have a chat about a new book... :D

TLove
-31st July 2007, 14:01
Well, we're entering a seconds team for the first time because we have:

-the money
-the interest

silvercross
-31st July 2007, 15:03
Just in case any fingers are pointed, huh? ;)

Kidding.

We're registered as having a second team, though not at the 100% agreement of our club committee, who wanted to wait and see if we had the depth to have two men's squads without creating a detriment to the quality of the teams put out to compete.

now where did I put my tank driver's helmet?...

shepherd
-31st July 2007, 21:00
Fare well and super good luck to Birmingham team for next season. :not_worth

pigeonmeister
-16th August 2007, 13:29
Sorry if I am being stupid, but why is it that only Edinburgh girls have joined the Northern Leage. It's been mentioned before, but asking a team to drive 10-12 hours in one day is ridiculous..

Another fencer
-16th August 2007, 14:15
The addition of Edinburgh to the NPL is a mystery to me - although BUSA seemed to think it was OK (I asked). I always read the BUSA handbook rules to mean that the NPL and SPL were English/Welsh leagues with the proviso that two Scottish first division teams can compete in the Championship. However, a couple of other NPLs (in other sports) seem to include Scottish teams, although this remains the exception.

REG 21 PREMIER LEAGUES
REG 21.1 BUSA will operate combined English and Welsh PLs in Badminton, Basketball, Fencing, Football, Golf, Hockey, Lacrosse (Womenís only), Netball, Rugby Union and Table Tennis (Menís only).

It does set up some epic trips. The longest potential journey I can find amongst universities with fencing teams is Aberdeen to UEA (under the present interpretation of the rules I believe both technically fall in NPL) a whopping 9 hours 21 minutes one way according to theAA.com! Dwarfs the maximum possible 5 hours 31 minutes for SPL - Aberystwyth to Kent.

Nick_C
-16th August 2007, 15:31
lol, i know... but it seemed perfectly reasonable for busa to send to the lufbra women's team to edinburgh for the NPL playoff in exam time. Although most of them didnt go, they lost fairly narrowly i believe, which i thought was quite impressive.

twohappyhippos
-16th August 2007, 16:43
Sorry if I am being stupid, but why is it that only Edinburgh girls have joined the Northern Leage. It's been mentioned before, but asking a team to drive 10-12 hours in one day is ridiculous..

The reason (I think!!!) Edinburgh were allowed to join the NPL was because we have won our Scottish Conference (98% of the time very easily) for like the last 6 - 7 years.

The reason why it is just the girls who joined (a decision made by the two captains and the sports union president) was because we felt that the boys weren't ready enough to join such as strong league like the NPL. Although they had won the conference for the last couple of years, St Andrews were still putting up a very good fight. We felt that until they had won the conference confidently it was not worth them joining the NPL.

We don't complain when we have to travel down south for BUSA fixtures. If you are in the BUSA league you have to be aware that they may send you to Edinburgh. If you don't like it, don't do. You can always forfeit or just don't be part of the team. Yes you may not be able to send your full team as they may not like it, but we have to do it too!!!

We hardly ever b***h about having to travel down, and I'm really getting fed up and annoyed by all the people complaining.

twohappyhippos
-16th August 2007, 16:44
p.s. sorry for the rant, if you don't want Edinburgh part of the NPL take up with BUSA. Don't take it out on the uni.

Another fencer
-16th August 2007, 17:13
I dont think anyone was actually attacking Edinburgh, more confused by sudden change to the interpretation of the rules given the extra distance to be covered, which will probably result in odd results depending on who has to travel. This is one reason why everything is regionalised, and why the PLs were primarily English/Welsh (with the extra place in the Champs for Scots teams via the Scottish 1st division) - I can see that it might be necessary to amend to reflect team strengths (as happens in some other sports), but I think people were surprised by the change.

Anyway, I think that many of us are unhappy with the whole league/KO structure - I mean going 5 hours there and 5 hours back to fence for less than a minute in sabre... In the SPL, all matches are done in two weekends where all the teams get together. (And that has its own problems - finding a free weekend when the internationals arent busy...)

twohappyhippos
-16th August 2007, 17:21
I know, I'm sorry!!! I just got really fed up of hearing people moan etc.

I never knew we could join the NPL until our sports union president asked to see us in his office!!!

It is a stupid system, true. We don't like it either. It would be so much easier to do it one weekend. Either way people are always going to complain!!!

fencingmum
-16th August 2007, 17:32
Just want to support poor beleaguered 2HH here. The Edi girls travelled far and wide last year to go south of the border for their matches, and didn't complain. They also consistently did very well in all their matches, so they deserve whatever promotion they've achieved.

pigeonmeister
-17th August 2007, 10:48
I'm sorry if you feel victimised HH, I can't quite see how this thread constitutes that but I'm sorry nevertheless don't take it personaly. I'm afraid that I stil have to disagree with the decision, only because of the system that we all are agree is stupid. I don't think your willingness to spend half a day in the car is an argument for others having to...sorry. I have in the past been glad to travel to Edinburgh for championship matches. We also had trips to Northumbria, Durham this season. Sorry, again, if you think I'm moaning.

Another fencer
-17th August 2007, 11:33
This isnt a criticism, but an observation. Fencingmum says that Edinburgh travelled a lot last year. This year they will do a lot more. Edinburgh had L16 and L8 matches in the Championships down south. (I dont include the semis and finals, everyone has to go to Sheffield for those). Plus a single NPL promotion play-off. This year they will have to do at least 4 trips for league matches and then unspecified trips for the Champs. (Depending on their position in the NPL).

They will certainly get a lot more fencing than last year, but it does come with a cost in travel time. I think Pigeonmeister's point is that Midlands teams cannot realistically expect to do NPL matches north of the border without setting out in the morning - making life difficult for those who get only the afternoon free for sport. Funnily enough though it takes less time for the Newcastle and environs universities to get to Edinburgh than to Birmingham or Liverpool! Maybe they need to rethink the PLs and create a third PL in the Midlands?

I still say

Team championships held over two separate weekends (One regional qualifier weekend, one national finals) would remove all this bloody travelling. Fencing just isnt cut out to be a Wednesday sport.

twohappyhippos
-17th August 2007, 12:02
I'm sorry if you feel victimised HH, I can't quite see how this thread constitutes that but I'm sorry nevertheless don't take it personaly. I'm afraid that I stil have to disagree with the decision, only because of the system that we all are agree is stupid. I don't think your willingness to spend half a day in the car is an argument for others having to...sorry. I have in the past been glad to travel to Edinburgh for championship matches. We also had trips to Northumbria, Durham this season. Sorry, again, if you think I'm moaning.

Don't worry I didn't take it thaaaat personally!!!! Just because I said I didn't openly complain on a forum, doesn't mean that deep deep deep down inside I wasn't fuming!!!

In response to Another Fencers post - maybe a Midland league would be better and probably more logical. I have often had to miss morning lectures to go down to the Midlands/Nottingham (I know they're not in the same place please don't yell, but it took us 6 hours to get down and thats a lot!!!) and I know the medics etc have had a really tough time in getting time off their course. BUSA should re oganise the leagues according to how long it takes to get to somewhere. For example, no more than 3 hours of travelling from Edinburgh would allow us to compete with: St Andrews, Durham, Newcastle, Northumbria. Which pretty much is almost the entire NPL.

Maybe we should voice these opinions to BUSA and get a petition or something of the sort organised, so at least that way we are being pro active about the situation instead of sitting here on the forum moaning our backsides off.

Red
-17th August 2007, 12:22
I have often had to miss morning lectures to go down to the Midlands/Nottingham (I know they're not in the same place please don't yell, but it took us 6 hours to get down and thats a lot!!!)

Actually.... Nottingham IS in the Midlands...

twohappyhippos
-17th August 2007, 12:25
Actually.... Nottingham IS in the Midlands...

Is it? Ooops!!! You can tell I gave geography up ages ago!!! Sorry!!!

Another fencer
-17th August 2007, 13:45
In response to Another Fencers post - maybe a Midland league would be better and probably more logical. BUSA should re oganise the leagues according to how long it takes to get to somewhere. For example, no more than 3 hours of travelling from Edinburgh would allow us to compete with: St Andrews, Durham, Newcastle, Northumbria. Which pretty much is almost the entire NPL.

Maybe we should voice these opinions to BUSA and get a petition or something of the sort organised, so at least that way we are being pro active about the situation instead of sitting here on the forum moaning our backsides off.

Whoa. Not that simple. The devil is in the details. I would probably include Liverpool & Manchester into any "midlands" PL zone, but where would one place say, York? Or even Leeds? (as usual boundaries are difficult - remembering that the NPL in this case would go as far north as Aberdeen).

Then you have to consider the balance of the different "competing" PLs - after all you dont want to have too weak an area - AND this has to apply across the board to all the sports. Then one would consider what happens to the SPL - do Oxford and Cambridge join the MPL?

That said, the Scots do have a good case for having the PLs rewritten. With the introduction of BUSA points for position in the league stage, the Scots are at a disadvantage. Being the lowest placed team in the PL is worth 32 points, being the winner of the first division is worth only 30 points. And if a Scots team was capable of being top of the NPL, it would get 50 points rather than the 30 it would get for being top of Scottish Tier 1. I would guess that Scottish AUs are already sharpening their knives.

2HH you might want to check your AU (and perhaps via SSF other Scots universities) and find out what lobbying they are doing. And for the sake of all the midlands teams, lets hope that BUSA doesnt just extend the NPL northwards...So if the Scots are lobbying for change, the midlands might want to do some as well.

gbm
-17th August 2007, 17:48
We're only in the Western Conference, but I've never not had to miss morning lectures for an away match (could be because the AU insists on putting us on big slow coaches with girls/boys rugby/hockey/netball/volleyball).

aber ollie
-18th August 2007, 11:28
Being the Captain for Aberystwyth's Mens 1st Team this upcoming year I was more than happy to see both Exeter and Plymouth having to make the journey up to us this year but can also see where issues may lie with having to travel all that way, especially as we have had a mens 2nd team for 4 years now. This means exeter/plymouth will possibly have to come up to Aber twice in a very short space of time which is very draining physically and mentally (although some of the best memories i have are of road trips down to other unis). I can imagine this to potentially cause strained relationships between unis who may not fancy such a journey and therefore try and rearrange it in some way. (ps. I have never known this to actually happen). Could a neutral place be found for such an occasion where a local town sports hall somewhere between the two locations could be utilised with both teams supplying equipment thus negating the home and away bias that some teams have when only fencing once in a season?

gbm
-18th August 2007, 11:33
:whistle:

I sent an email saying something very similar to all the clubs in the Western (Mens, I forgot the women's) Conference recently, but only got one response (Uni club email addresses tend to get lost with the change-over of commitees - now I think of it I've got no idea what the Cardiff Uni fencing club email address is, or who has the login for it, and I'm supposed to be in charge!

silvercross
-31st August 2007, 09:34
Seems like a Catch 22 situation.

Last year the Liverpool Men's 1st had to travel all the way to Northumbria, and Northumbria had to do the same .

There are 150-something universities in the UK, but sadly less than a third have fencing teams. A League in the NW where ALL unis have teams would be packed. London alone would have to have several leagues.

I do agree, though, the travelling is sometimes a pain in the rear (from what I heard, the men's 1st got back to Liverpool from Northumbria well after midnight last year after their match).

I think BUSA should take some of these issues into consideration, but a lot of them also fall into the realms of the Athletic Unions at the Universities themselves.

pigeonmeister
-31st August 2007, 11:01
Liverpool to Newcastle isn't too bad- 172 mile- 3 hours on route planner. I would keep them in the same league. They are both 'Northern'. I can even live with our trip: 220 miles 3hrs 40.

It really is catch 22- I can see the sense in putting Durham, Newcastle, Northumbria in with Edinburgh etc. But then this would deprive us of at least 2 strong teams who we enjoy fencing and would, on the strenth of previous seasons, leave the Northern premiership much less competitive.

What about 3 premier leagues....

A 'borderers' premier league: Durham, Northumbria, Edinburgh, St Andrews + one more northern team (Newcastle?)

A Northern/Central premiership- Liverpool, Oxford, Brum, Lufbra, Notts,

And a Southern premiership- UCL, Cambs, Imperial, Bristol, bath

That would leave a strong 'border' league, a strong midland league and a strong southern league. Oxford would probably be most resistant but would still get to fence Cambs in varsity and, potentially, in BUSA cup.