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Small steps
-16th October 2003, 08:55
For a sport where quick reaction is vital, it seems logical that anything which enhances vision would be universally adopted. Transparents masks seem to do this (claimed by 30%), and yet watching the World Championships, none of the foillists or epeeists, and only some of the sabruers, used them.

The costs premium cannot explain this. All feedback would be much appreciated.

Mantis
-16th October 2003, 08:57
There was a 10,000 Euro prize for the highest ranking sabreur, but not foilist or epeeist, wearing a see through mask. Call me cynical, but ...

neochrome
-16th October 2003, 09:38
Maybe people didnt want to look stupid ?

Small steps
-16th October 2003, 13:19
But why does everyone else (or at least those not constrained tightly by costs) not move to transparent masks because they can see move and therefore fence better?

Sophie
-16th October 2003, 13:48
Only vaguely relevant to this thread but..

If you are a sabreur wearing a see-through mask and your opponent hits the transparent section with their point, does the hit register??

Peanut_UK
-16th October 2003, 14:31
Originally posted by Sophie
Only vaguely relevant to this thread but..

If you are a sabreur wearing a see-through mask and your opponent hits the transparent section with their point, does the hit register??

Hits to the visor don't register, so wearing one of these masks does reduce your target area. Apparently the rules were changed to accomodate this.

not sure why there aren't more of these masks about - I would wear one I think, although I'm one of those people with financial constraints...!

Mantis
-16th October 2003, 15:11
Originally posted by Sophie
Only vaguely relevant to this thread but..

If you are a sabreur wearing a see-through mask and your opponent hits the transparent section with their point, does the hit register??

No, of course it doesn't register - at least, not until someone develops a plastic that conducts electricity. But it doesn't matter because the chance of that happening is small, apparently. (NB, this is most definitely not my opinion)

Boo Boo
-16th October 2003, 15:22
Personally I don't use transparent masks for a number of reasons:
- having a steal mesh infront of my eyes makes me feel better psychologically - it would take a while to, psychologically, get used to not having a mesh there.
- in foil the visor is more likely to get hit by a point or even a broken blade on the front of the mask (this would be much more alarming than using a visor for sabre where a lot of the hits are with the flat of the blade). I am just a bit nervous about how strong the plastic is.
- when I concentrate, I frown - I don't think I want anyone to see my facial expressions whilst I fence (any more than they currently do): I would probably look very mean and agressive (I suppose that could be an advantage though...)

Boo

Mantis
-16th October 2003, 15:31
Originally posted by Boo Boo
- when I concentrate, I frown - I don't think I want anyone to see my facial expressions whilst I fence (any more than they currently do): I would probably look very mean and agressive (I suppose that could be an advantage though...)

And this is precisely why the powers that be want them to be used - the want the spectators to be able to see the agression, anger, tension, suspense, fear, hatred, dispair, jubilation, embarrassing nasal hair. (OK, maybe not that last one)

Boo Boo
-16th October 2003, 15:38
What embarrassing nasal hair???! :o

Boo
(rushes off to the ladies room to check in a mirror...)

Muso440
-16th October 2003, 16:48
Originally posted by Small steps
But why does everyone else (or at least those not constrained tightly by costs) not move to transparent masks because they can see move and therefore fence better?

Personally I don't have a problem with seeing through the normal masks. And I don't want to look stupid. In fact, I think, it could be rather off-putting seeing your opponent grimacing at you.

oiuyt
-16th October 2003, 20:36
Not to mention that with the curvature of the lexan bit that everyone's nose looks mushed and malshapen. Not the best look for most people....

-B :)

symon
-16th October 2003, 21:15
and another reason..........you can't pull faces at your opponant with the visor mask eh?? boo !!:grin:

Robert
-16th October 2003, 22:04
I have spoken to only one person who uses one. He said that you do gain on the vision but you lose it again on the extra weight (solid plastic as opposed to lattice of metal).

Robert

reposte
-16th October 2003, 23:20
Has anyone considered that the transparent masks are bound to have much poorer ventilation seeing as the visor is air tight
whereas the corresponding part in the mesh is ventilated?

jrp-94
-18th October 2003, 19:31
I think steaming up would also be a problem. In my motorcycling days (ie before the kids!) I used to have to treat the inside of my visor with an anti-fogging spray on a daily basis. Fencing is much more strenuous than motorcycling, so I can image it being pretty hard to see after the first few minutes.

I believe there are types of perspex available that don't fog up (used by fighter pilots?) but that would surely inflate the cost considerably.

PM1
-18th October 2003, 20:42
Pretty cetain the LP one is fog resistant : a cadet or 2 and the odd (?) junior epeeist now use them. I'm sure BP could give us the definitive answer.

Can't say that I saw significantly more of faces of the sabreurs in the WC to make me think it was a significant development in making the sport more televisual. And I know I get just a teensie bit worried at the posibility that a hit to mask might do a tad more than scratch the visor but hey, that's me being psycho mum again................:(

tigger
-19th October 2003, 14:11
Guys you're all being so...well...20th century! The 'plastic' bit is stronger than the metal. Do you think the shields used by riot police would be stronger if made out of metal?? purleaze.

I quite like the look of them, and have tried a foil one on, but I have had various reports on the steaming up issue. Some say no problem, others use various cunning devices. I saw one guy (epeeist) who had a sort of dust mask thingy which took the breath from his mouth and nose down to the mesh part of the mask, and stopped the see thru bit being exposed to the possibility of steaming. Worth incorporating as an option BP? Also do you do x-change, contour-fit, see thru sabre masks!? now that would cause raised eyebrows at weapon controls...

I don't think it makes the sport more televisual at all.

reposte
-19th October 2003, 14:27
I suppose it's only a matter of time before the entire mask is made out of transparent material, making us look quite neat
and futuristic. If the air flow problem is resolved, we'd all be the coolest looking sportsmen in no time, as if we're not
so already ;)

Muso440
-19th October 2003, 14:47
Originally posted by reposte
I suppose it's only a matter of time before the entire mask is made out of transparent material, making us look quite neat
and futuristic. If the air flow problem is resolved, we'd all be the coolest looking sportsmen in no time, as if we're not
so already ;)

Well, we'd look a bit like the aliens in Mars Attacks... As long as our heads didn't explode. :dizzy:

wingnutLP
-19th October 2003, 18:16
For Leon Paul Transparent masks,
The plastic polycarbonate parts are stronger than the mesk about 50%.
Reaction time is measuarble quicker more than 20%.
The visors we supply are coated with an anti fog coating which helps in reducing fogging.
Some people have more problems with fogging up than others. This seems to be function of breathing control, breathing away from the visor helps.
The device for keeping the moist air away from the visor mentioned does work, we did some initial work on a rubber foam deflector, however if the point is to help see the face this rather spoils the whole idea.
Design of the mask helps reduce fogging, thats why our mask seems to fog up less than others.
Both Graham and I have put small computer fans in the mask and these work perfectly, but add to the complexity and need to have rechargable batteries.
At the world Championships James and Loiuse and maybe Posnikov worn a new Leon Paul Contour, exchange transparent mask, the two brits winning 1000 euros each.
Based on our experience A grant from the F.I.E. or ? of about 50K to 100K and we could manufacture a mass production lightweigh transparent mask.
Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul

jrp-94
-19th October 2003, 19:25
Originally posted by PM1
Can't say that I saw significantly more of faces of the sabreurs in the WC to make me think it was a significant development in making the sport more televisual.(

I found it impossible to see either fencer's face, and as such I agree it seemed pretty pointless from a televisual view. Why not allow patterns/designs on masks, similar to the designs on motorbike racers' crash-hemets, to increase recognition of individual fencers? This would make the sport more 'colourful' (and dare I say modern?).

:shrug:

clockity
-20th October 2003, 10:26
Originally posted by joe
I found it impossible to see either fencer's face, and as such I agree it seemed pretty pointless from a televisual view. Why not allow patterns/designs on masks, similar to the designs on motorbike racers' crash-hemets, to increase recognition of individual fencers? This would make the sport more 'colourful' (and dare I say modern?).

:shrug:

I would prefer a more colourful look. The painted mask issue has been debated in this thread (http://fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=463) by quite a few people, including myself. Lawrence wears a Spider-Man mask. Might try and work out how to get one done. Must think of a good design...

pinkelephant
-20th October 2003, 12:43
I wear a Vision 2000 for epee so I can see. In the dim light in the corners of the venue at Leicester I really appreciated the increased ability to see my opponents hitting me. Seriously though, it really does make a huge difference.

jonnyd
-8th November 2003, 21:15
i was told that a french fencer got an epee and a visor mask and just put the epee blade straight through the plastic

Gav
-9th November 2003, 01:28
Hi Jonnyd,

You are correct. Can't remember the fencer (Obry I think). I beleive it was the original Allstar mask (but again not sure).

Australian
-9th November 2003, 03:31
i might get a LP one next year....

Robert
-9th November 2003, 10:57
I tried one on at the Leonpaul stand on Saturday and it didn't seeme to fog up or feel too heavy, both of which I was worried about.

So once I have a little more ability I will get one. (It would be far too humiliating to step onto a piste with a transparent mask and then only be able to fence to the standard I can at the moment).

Robert

Epeecurean
-11th November 2003, 08:11
I recently got the transparent LP mask. I love the crystal-clear view but have had a bit of a problem with fogging, at least in a poorly ventilated gym. It's not really a major problem but I am going to try the anti-fog spray or perhaps some sort of device to redirect my breathing down to the mesh. A little computer fan might do the trick too. Or maybe some yogic breathing where I inhale through the nose & exhale out my ears...

One thing I should note is that since the visor is like a window, the frame of the window does reduce your peripheral vision somewhat.

Doesn't seem much heavier to me nor do I feel any more vulnerable. The contour fit system makes the mask feel nice and snug w/o any further adjustment. Doesn't feel like it can suddenly come off like my old Allstar mask.

Cheers,
Epeecurean

3 Card Trick
-11th November 2003, 12:02
It's important to keep the inside squeaky clean, try regular use of spectacle cleaning moist tissues.

Australian
-12th November 2003, 06:26
can you get the transperant masks with contour fit?

pinkelephant
-12th November 2003, 07:26
yes

randomsabreur
-12th November 2003, 16:50
But we're all used to seeing through a mesh. I know rationally that the plastic is stronger than mesh, but I have an innate liking for being able to see what is protecting my face, and metal is more reassuring to the inate scaredy cat.

Blade Runner
-17th November 2003, 17:21
Extra vision works both ways. If you are wearing a transparent mask, it is much easier for your opponent to see your eyes. A give-away for reactions/intentions?

stevejackson
-17th November 2003, 19:53
Don't know about giving away intentions, but the clear mask does wonders for your moral when you see the panic/fear in your opponents eyes at a stop hit attempt that disrupts their attack. It's almost worth a hit knowing that even if you were just short your opponent will think twice before trying that move again

doobarz
-17th November 2003, 21:12
Sandu (ROM) who won the Amsterdam Coupe du Nord (Sabre) wore a transparent mask. Not sure what make.

devalleassoc
-29th November 2003, 23:38
In my most humble opinion, it seems that it is a "decent" idea at best. I believe that the original impetus was to increase the viewablity on T.V. ,etc. Seems as if it was not so successful at that. It also seems that you have to go through a whole lot of trouble, and thought, to really make it function properly. (Computer fans?? Puleeze!!) I am as 21st. Century as they come, so, I say, if manufacturers want to make additional $$$$ on an item, LEAVE THE MESH ALONE, and go for the custom designs, easy and way cooler!!!:sam: :transport

Pointy stick
-1st December 2003, 18:06
As a motorcyclist, I reckon a transparent visor must be very easy to scratch if, for example, someone hits it with a 3 foot long piece of steel. I expect a scratched visor could cause more annoyance than trying to see through a mesh.

Slinger
-1st December 2003, 18:31
I play paintball as well as fence and as you may be aware Paintball players use a clear plastic visor along with a mask. Functionally other than conductivity the masks have very similar purposes and streangth requirments. Comparing the two I truly wish that paintball would switch to a screen. First the masks fog up, or you have to get a special antifogging lense (the spray does not work if you are brathing heavy.) Which is quite a bit more expensive. They get scratced all the time. And are not as strong as metal. They are strong enough, but plastic wears out and has to be replaced eventually. Stick with mesh it may be low tech but it's still better.

Robert
-1st December 2003, 19:37
Originally posted by Slinger
I play paintball as well as fence and as you may be aware Paintball players use a clear plastic visor along with a mask. Functionally other than conductivity the masks have very similar purposes and streangth requirments.

I think it is worth making clear that this is not true. The strength requirements on the FIE grade fencing masks we are talking about are much much higher than those on any paint ball mask I have used (which are essentially just safety goggles). In fact the plastic section is tougher than the metal mesh around it.

Most of them also have a replacable scratch layer.

Robert

P.S Slinger, what do you mean when you say paintball should switch? A fencing style mesh wouldn't protect you.

Slinger
-1st December 2003, 20:00
You are right, I have no experience about the strength of the fencing masks. However the Paintball masks used are similar in how they look to safty gogles minus the mask. But, are far superior in strength. (I suspect the last time you played was in the early ninties. Correct if I am wrong. Even if I'm not the plastic is very strong.) I should not however have talked about the strength of the plastic in fencing. I however do believe that the comfort levels due to breathability support a mesh versus a plastic mask. Also the visability is better with mesh even though it is counterintuitive. This of cource is just my opinion but it has some ground to stand on. Take it for what you will.

As for a mesh for paintball. I think it would protect enough I have been playing for 7 years and the only problem I see is perhaps the shells splinering and hitting in the eye. The paint is vegtable oil.

Paintball players use all sorts of antifogging equipment including mask fans and spray with thermal lenses. Low tech is better for fencing. Again, my opinion.

devalleassoc
-1st December 2003, 23:51
[i]

Paintball players use all sorts of antifogging equipment including mask fans and spray with thermal lenses. Low tech is better for fencing. Again, my opinion. [/B]



Again I'm with you!! Way too much trouble and thought to make them worth the extra expense and weight! Besides I have never heard of anybody ever complaining about the visibility through the mesh, say for about......hmmm.... GENERATIONS!! Besides, those clear masks are just plain UGLY!!!! Also, wouldn't a nice skull & crossbones look great on a mask???;)

Moose
-2nd December 2003, 04:38
Heh, first thing I'd try and do in a fight would be to stick my sabre through the scratch layer of the mask. If my understanding of the rules is right if the plastic is compromised then they cant wear the mask, and if its in the middle of a bout then bad luck to the poor fencer who just had equipment failure :sam:

BTW, does anyone know if its technically legal to insulate the area of a foil mask where the visor would be on a transparent one?

pinkelephant
-2nd December 2003, 08:20
The visibility through plastic is MUCH better than mesh, particularly in dim lighting. And I do know - I use both. I use a plastic one when fencing, through choice (though only at foil & epee at the moment), and a mesh one when coaching, as talking tends to fog it up.

Jambo
-2nd December 2003, 12:50
Pinkelephant: Is yours an LP one? How easily do they fog? Do you ever have to take a break in a DE fight to demist it?

pinkelephant
-2nd December 2003, 12:59
It is LP. It does fog sometimes, if I'm breathing particularly hard, but my son's doesn't (he's fitter than me!) Several people use some sort of anti-fog spray - presumably the motorcycle helmet one.

symon
-2nd December 2003, 13:28
hmmmmm maybe if you could line the visor with the same stuff you darken the exterior of car windows with would work?? even if just to stop eye contact with your opponent

devalleassoc
-2nd December 2003, 13:50
Originally posted by symon
hmmmmm maybe if you could line the visor with the same stuff you darken the exterior of car windows with would work?? even if just to stop eye contact with your opponent


Brilliant!! Funny I was thinking of that yesterday!!! 'Would give it a Darth Vader-ish look as well!! (I'm still sticking to my mesh though, it's just so much less clumsy looking!!):sam:

uk_45
-2nd December 2003, 15:44
Lets face it there is no problem with the look of fencing on TV it looks great why else would it be in so many adverts. The main problem is it is shown at like 1 am. Solve this make it more popular in the uk and problem solved

devalleassoc
-2nd December 2003, 16:56
Originally posted by uk_45
Lets face it there is no problem with the look of fencing on TV it looks great why else would it be in so many adverts. The main problem is it is shown at like 1 am. Solve this make it more popular in the uk and problem solved


Well said uk_45!! That's what I call "Keeping the faith alive"!!!;)
The look is undeniably.... incredible!!! (As much as the sport is facinating!) Just make sure that everybody gets to see it!!

Jambo
-2nd December 2003, 17:01
It doesnt look great... otherwise it wouldn't be superceded by Bowls, Darts, Snooker and all the other boring sports that get much much more tv coverage than fencing does.

The sport is v hard to understand with the exception of epee which is the least exciting to watch (my opinion, not trying to be rude). In order to get tv coverage more people have to have some concept of what it involves (thats why darts is on tv, everyone understands it and has played it), more money has to be involved and individual characters have to capture peoples attention.

But this has been gone over a million times. It wont be on tv till the majority of the population has tried it at least once.

Moose
-2nd December 2003, 22:59
And the majority of the population wont try it til it becomes popular...