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three_spirits
-17th October 2003, 20:14
hi all

can anybody tell me where i can get some good advice on re-wiring a foil.

thanks in advance

Gecko
-18th October 2003, 11:09
www.salleboise.com/new_wire.html

sparkymark567
-19th October 2003, 10:20
The above link gives a really good example of how NOT to re-wire a foil blade. The person who wrote it doesn't seem to have a clue what they are doing , plus you'll probably end up sticking your fingers together.

Here is how to re-wire a foil blade.

1. Remove the old wire and barrel, clean out the grove (could use a special tool or some special chemical e.g. Loctite Glue remover. Also, clean the thread, at the tip end of the blade.

2. Place a SMALL amount of Loctite thread lock on the thread. Wait for 5 mins.


3. Screw on the barrel. Use a vice grip to hold the blade and tighten the barrel using a small spanner or an adjustable. Be very carefull and make sure the barrel is tight, but not overtight as the barrel can split quite easily. Also, it is preferable that the grub screw holes are aligned horizontally with the blade.

4. Insert the wire. Use a point applicator tool to locate the connector / cup, in to the foil barrel. This will ensure that it gets located properly.

5. Iron out (with your fingers) all of the little kinks in the wire.
Locate the wire in the groove. Tightly tape the wire on the tang end of the blade. Ensure that the wire is still roughly located in the groove. Fold the wire back on itself and wind it arround the tape. Then tape tighly over that.

--- The magic trick:
6. Find a useful tool that can be used for holding the blage in a bent position. (bent to at least 45 degrees downwards). Or, alternatively find a place where you can wedge a bent blade, e.g. a door frame. The bending of the blade will ensure that the wire is located perfectly and tightly in the groove. Be very careful with the bent blade, it could spring up and poke your eye out!


7. Glue the wire using Loctite Super Glue or equivelent (the glue needs to be fairly runny so don't buy super glue gel. Be carefull, make sure the glue does not run in to the foil tip and does not run down as far as the tang. Don't touch the blade with you're fingers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, you shouldn't need to touch it, not even with a screw driver.

8. Wait till it's dry

9. Scrape away the excess glue.

10. Untape the wire at the tang end. Thread the insulating sleeve over the wire.

Then if you have a good blade e.g. a BF: you'll notice that the grove in the blade is slightly wider at the bottom.
The insulating sleeve can be forced down inside this groove, this means that the wire is then less likely to break at the guard to blade interface. Don't use the insulating sleeve that LP sell, use the stuff you get from Allstar/Ulhman UK, which is of the correct diameter (the LP stuff is too large!)

11. When connecting the wire to the bayonnet socket, remember that the wire is covered in a thin plastic insulation, which needs to be gently scraped away (or burnt away using a lighter).

12. The wire should be connected to the screw terminal on the baynnet socket in a special way. The wire should point to towards the inside, then wrap the wire arround and underneath the socket screw post of the bayonet socket (need to see it really). This will give the wire extra strength at the connection.

13. The normal stuff, (ALWAYS use only new grub screws!!!!!) screw in the tip and spring etc. Tape the blade, etc,.... and test.

14. Set the blade in a vice. Use a spring washer in the assembly.

wingnutLP
-19th October 2003, 17:52
Leon Paul are working on some new data sheets for fencers and technician, which which will include pitures and video. Assemble rewiring and general repairs. First should be available next week. Barry Paul

sparkymark567
-20th October 2003, 11:20
Excellent!

I would like to request guidelines on how the barrel should be tightened. e.g. finger tight then 1 turn with a spanner, as it's difficult to get the torque right. Too litlle and it comes loose, too much and the barrel splits (especially the german ones, not that this would concern many people here).

Thanks

rory
-20th October 2003, 11:38
Some small additional points to add to sparkymarks post.

Firstly - IGNORE THE INFO IN THE LINKED PAGE. It's rubbish. You'll a) glue your fingers together, b) take ages, c) be forever rewiring blades when the wires pop out.

A good tool for cleaning out the wire groove is half a mini hacksaw blade. Snap a blade in half, wrap some tape round the blunt end for a grip, run the blade up and down the groove.

Cheap nail polish remover contains a lot of acetone, which is a great glue remover. If you've got a stuck barrel on a blade you need to rewire, dunk the tip in some. And you can drip it on the wiregrove using a pippette to soften the glue.

REALLY stubborn glue can be softened with a lighter. But don't hold it at one spot or you can damage your blade.
Wave it gently over the groove.

When removing the wire, if it's not just pulling out, hold the wire in some pliers and rotate them along the long axis of the blade, rolling the wire round them - it should pull slowly out as you roll the pliers down the blade.

I use LP barrels and I've never split one - crank it as tight as you like. You'll need to use pliers on many barrels as they don't have spanner flats.
LP barrels are also much less prone to deformation than German ones when fencing - they stay rounder, longer.
And the grub screws are tougher too.

LP teflon-coated tips are nice, but the tips tend to shear off internally. If you don't fancy spending four quid on a new tip (quite frequently in my experience), see if you can find some old style LP tips with the separate plastic collar. Much tougher, if a little less smooth. And far cheaper.
(Scots: David Mends still stocks them I believe) They're compatible with the teflon barrels.

To reiterate: screw on the barrel first, or you're *guaranteed* to twist the wire and weaken it.
And if you don't use a point applicator (especially with LP barrels, which are a ver ysnug fit to the plastic cup), you will pull of the plastic cup and waste a wire.

sparkymark567
-20th October 2003, 11:54
I agree with Rory, top stuff! for re-wireing a blade.
I also have one of those hacksaw blade thingies, a club mate of mine used to make them from machine hacksaw blades. It's an excellent tool!! I've not tried the nail varish remover, sounds like a good idea as it's really cheap.

I also prefer the LP ponts with a plastic collar, as opposed to the LP teflon points. The nylon creates a good bearing material so the surface finish and tolerance of fit is not so important. I'm not sure that the teflon points will break like you suggested, I think LP have solved that problem which occured only with the early batch.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, but I'm still going to use the german points because:

The metal to metal bearing is good because the surface finish is excellent and the tolerance of fit is much better (i.e. a closer tolerance). They just seem to work ! all the time, every time, and always give you a smooth click like point action. The only thing that's not so good is that they can get deformed more easily than LP and you also have to be carefull not to over tighten them.

srb
-20th October 2003, 19:02
To solve the problems with the barrel deforming use an expanding mandrel to remove any dints:

http://www.uhlmann-fencing.co.uk/PriceLists/Foils/Foils06-Tools.htm

They are very easy to use. You insert them into the barrel and gently tap them with a hammer past the deformation. Then gently hit the barrel where the dint is. Due to the close tolerance of the mandrel, hitting the barrel where the dint is will return the barrel to its original shap. Keep doing this until the mandrel can be removed without any friction from the barrel.

I also use these when tensioning the blade during a rewire. I put the mandrel in the barrel after having finished glueing it and locating the rewire and plastic cup (I use an allen key to locate the point). I then tie some string from the mandrel to the tang to put the blade under tension. The string is already the correct length with loops at each end, which means I can do an emergency rewire at a competition if I have too.

The spanner flats on the german points also mean that you can easliy tighten the barrel without ever squashing it, which can occur when using pliers as you are putting pressure on a round smooth surface to try and grip it.

srb

veeco
-21st October 2003, 15:11
I used to wire my blades (epee) with super glue, but I found out that this glue, when it dries out, tends to lose it's elasticity, making the wire pop out of the groove more often.

I now use Bostik nitrile contact glue, and haven't had this problem since.

I still keep a bottle of super glue handy in my toolkit for emergency repairs/rewires, since it dries out quicker. But the wires glued with the Bostik last longer.

three_spirits
-21st October 2003, 18:00
thanks for all your help! i suppose i better bite the bullet and get on with actually doing one! i'll keep you posted!

Farrago
-18th September 2005, 10:22
I'm needing to rewire my foil (first ever time and I don't have anyone who's done it before to help me) and I was wonderng a couple of things:

Can anything be re-used from my old tip? Looking at the Leon Paul armoury section it looks like a French/British hybrid (surely I'm wrong?) The barrel looks fine, not mangled at all and the same for the tip. Can they be re-used? I will of course be getting a new spring and grub screws.

Will I be ok just getting a new wire (with the bit stuck on the end that goes inside the barrel)?

Thanks for any help people can give me!

gbm
-18th September 2005, 20:15
You need to match parts...

For example, if you have an LP barrel and tip that aren't ridiculously old, you need an LP spring and LP grub screws. If you have an Uhlmann tip, you need the appropriate springs and screws etc...

Assuming that you do actually have a LP tip (check this first - post a photo if you can), then you may need the following:
Wire (complete) from LP with brass contact and plastic cup on end
You may need a 'foil applicator tool' which is basically a rod for pushing the contact into the barrel. Remember to pull the wire out of the bottom of the barrel as you do that, so the wire doesn't get crushed at the bottom of the barrel...
You may also need a 6mm spanner if you can't get the old stuff out of the tip with a paperclip.
And glue, obviously (use superglue, it's easier).

Baldric
-18th September 2005, 20:44
Originally posted by Farrago
I'm needing to rewire my foil (first ever time and I don't have anyone who's done it before to help me) and I was wonderng a couple of things:



Hi Farrago

Do you go to many competitions? If so, ask one of the armourers to show you how to do it.

I had about 4 (botched) attempts at rewiring foils, until I watched an expert do four re-wires in about half an hour. They were kind enough to talk me through what they were doing, and challenges posed by various manufacturers bits. Since then, I have done loads without problems.

(PS ask the armourer AFTER the last comp of the day has started - up until then, they are too busy to do anything except growl!)

If you don't go to comps, and there is no club armourer to ask, I would recommend buying a complete re-wire kit from Leon Paul - then unless you are unlucky enough to have a foil with a non-standard thread (very rare) you can be sure that all the bits will fit together.

You might also check out the animated sequences on the LP web site "Armoury" tab - they are very helpful.

Regards

Baldric

Farrago
-18th September 2005, 22:21
Originally posted by goodbadandme
You need to match parts...

For example, if you have an LP barrel and tip that aren't ridiculously old, you need an LP spring and LP grub screws. If you have an Uhlmann tip, you need the appropriate springs and screws etc...

It's an LP foil and it's only a few months old. I have some spare grub screws and springs already (from Leon Paul) so that's fine.


Originally posted by goodbadandme

Wire (complete) from LP with brass contact and plastic cup on end
You may need a 'foil applicator tool' which is basically a rod for pushing the contact into the barrel. Remember to pull the wire out of the bottom of the barrel as you do that, so the wire doesn't get crushed at the bottom of the barrel...
You may also need a 6mm spanner if you can't get the old stuff out of the tip with a paperclip.
And glue, obviously (use superglue, it's easier).

Thankyou very much, I think it is just the wire with contact and cup that I need. (and glue and everything).

I've got the old tip off and completely taken apart and cleaned up. If I get an Allstar re-wire (just the wire with the contact attached) will that fit with my Leon Paul barrel? It's just the Leon Paul website won't appear to let me spend less than a tenner. (argh, poor student, can't afford to buy 9 of extra things just to make it up!).

Oh I've worked out my point is a normal one, was confused by the plastic insulation on the tip (it's black so apparently a new point). I was looking at the armoury section earlier and got confused.


Baldric, I don't go to many competitions (ie one BUSA individuals and lots of BUSA inter-uni things, would like to but kind of poor, busy and inexperienced) and we have matches from the second week of term so I can't really wait til I can get hold of an armourer unfortunately.

Baldric
-18th September 2005, 22:30
Originally posted by Farrago
It's an LP foil and it's only a few months old. I have some spare grub screws and springs already (from Leon Paul) so that's fine.

I've got the old tip off and completely taken apart and cleaned up. If I get an Allstar re-wire (just the wire with the contact attached) will that fit with my Leon Paul barrel? It's just the Leon Paul website won't appear to let me spend less than a tenner. (argh, poor student, can't afford to buy 9 of extra things just to make it up!).


No, don't mix makes, often the cup will not fit in the barrel! I would not worry about the LP minimum charge - I bet if you phone them, they will send you a wire and cup for the price plus the postage. They are very nice, obliging people. (Sorry Barry, if this is strictly against your policy).

Farrago
-18th September 2005, 22:37
Originally posted by Baldric
No, don't mix makes, often the cup will not fit in the barrel! I would not worry about the LP minimum charge - I bet if you phone them, they will send you a wire and cup for the price plus the postage. They are very nice, obliging people. (Sorry Barry, if this is strictly against your policy).

Cheers, would have felt silly if I'd got an Allstar one and not managed to get it to fit. I presume the tenner minimum is to cover credit card costs which is fair enough but quite frustrating. Hmm, I wonder if any of my London friends can be bribed to go to the shop and post me one:confused:

gibbiyon
-19th September 2005, 11:03
Leon Paul have some instructioins with cool pictures up on their website: http://www.leonpaul.com/armoury/foil/foil_repair.htm

Farrago
-19th September 2005, 12:06
Originally posted by gibbiyon
Leon Paul have some instructioins with cool pictures up on their website:

Thanks, I'd already found that actually and it was generally the bits I was confused about that weren't covered unfortunately (ie what I could reuse from my old point). It has made me more confident about attempting to rewire my foil though!

gbm
-22nd September 2005, 18:32
The FIE sets standards on the design of tips, but only in the sense of 'the bit you hit with must be round, have a flat head with a chamfered edge and be roughly this big', and 'the bit it screws onto will have xxx thread'.

The tips themselves (i.e. the design of the internal parts) is proprietry. As a result, nothing works with anything else... even amongst the same manufacturers parts sometimes. For example, LP grub screws are standard across foils and epees, but this is not true of other manufacturers, LP old tips and new tips take the same size spring, cups, contacts and screws, but you can't use an old barrel with a new tip or vice versa...

Magimix
-3rd October 2005, 21:05
When I'm rewiring my foils, I use the following:

A piece of domestic copper tubing (15mm stuff) that is sealed off at one end (I used a compression fitting, but a soldered one would be fine). Just shorter than a bare blade. I then put the blade in this and fill it with acetone (nail polish remover would work fine) - doesn't take much to fill it since the blade takes up most of the room.

Leave over night and next day the wire has normally fallen right off the blade as well as all the other gunk.

The exception to this was a LP blade I reqired recently for a friend - had to resort to a hot air gun to get the wire out in the end...