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Ronald Velden
-18th September 2007, 10:38
Just to remind all young fencers that the tournament is taking place over
weekend of 13-14th October at Acland Burghley School,Tufnell Park.

Full information and entry forms are available on Camden Website, which
is www.camdenfencingclub.org.uk.

Please note that there is an U17 age category for both boys and girls.
This is the only foil event in the Series where this is available in England.

The venue is just 5 minutes from St Pancras and Kings X Stations and
directly opposite Northern Line Station, which connects with Euston
and Waterloo.

There are a number of budget guest houses within 10 minutes walk
[3 minutes by car] from venue.

So far almost 100 fencers have entered and we would like to see that
number double!

Ronald Velden
-23rd September 2007, 20:15
Please note that blade sizes are as follows:

Under 9 is size 0
Under 11/13 size 3
Under 15/17 size 5

pinkelephant
-23rd September 2007, 22:07
That would be normal rules re blade sizes then.

Red
-23rd September 2007, 22:12
That would be normal rules re blade sizes then.

Surely you know how well people fail to read information thats given to them quite clearly....

Ronald Velden
-24th September 2007, 05:51
Point about blade sizes made, because senior coach complained about use
of size 3 blades by under 9s at other LPJS competitions.

Foilling Around
-24th September 2007, 05:57
Point about blade sizes made, because senior coach complained about use
of size 3 blades by under 9s at other LPJS competitions.

Ron is right, many clubs do not have size 0 foils and send their under 9s with size 3 blades. Don't think the LPJS Sherwood Foil has had a big problem recently, but we have had in the past.

Ronald Velden
-24th September 2007, 08:19
I will make sure that size 0 blades are available at Leon Paul stall over weekend in case fencers don't have them. However, I would prefer that
this is organized in advance. I am sure they do not want to change 20 blades
before competition!

Tubby
-24th September 2007, 15:41
Also U15 and U17 need 800N under plastron. I had to send 3 boys to the LP stall to purchase the proper kit at Durham at the weekend. Also rejected one mask as the rubber had come away from the mask.

Ronald Velden
-24th September 2007, 21:32
I have just looked on BFA Regulations issued in June 2007. I do not
see any regulation, which stipulates 800 CEN Plastron.

The only stipulation for domestic fencing is that fencers must wear
350 Cen Jackets and a plastron which is in good condition.

I will clarify this tomorrow with Leon Paul.

Ronald Velden
-24th September 2007, 21:46
I have just Found the relevant regulation and it would appear that CEN2
Plastrons ie 800N are required if you fence with size 5 blade.

I will clarify with BFA and Leon Paul whether this regulation is being enforced
in LPJS.

Clearly we need to be safe, but not impose too much financial cost on
parents.

pinkelephant
-24th September 2007, 23:49
It is a BFA regulation, so is applicable to ALL competitions. Nobody at my school club is allowed to fence on a box without a 800N plastron - even using size 3 foils or size 2 epees or sabres. I have very few 350N plastrons left, and as I now know the number of beginners this year, I can get rid of those as well.

I have even lent plastrons to fencers at competitions I have been running - it really is about time the message got through. I was rather cross though, at the local coach who should know better, who sent some U10s to a competition at which I was merely reffing, and expected me to provide size 0 foils. I don't HAVE size 0 foils as I don't have fencers below Year 7 (11 years old) - and even if I did, why on earth should I lend them to other people?...ranting

Red
-24th September 2007, 23:55
Clearly we need to be safe, but not impose too much financial cost on
parents.

Surely the cost of an 800N plastron is negligable compared to the potential cost of having your child's chest penetrated by a broken foil?

Tubby
-25th September 2007, 11:59
I have just Found the relevant regulation and it would appear that CEN2 Plastrons ie 800N are required if you fence with size 5 blade.

I will clarify with BFA and Leon Paul whether this regulation is being enforced in LPJS.
As pinkelephant has stated, this is a BFA requirement. I also share her frustration that the message has not got through and when you hear as I did at the weekend - "But I fenced at other Leon Paul comps with this plastron ..." did they get away with it because the refs at those comps:
1. did not check :mad:
2. checked but did not know the requirements :(
3. this is the first U15 comp me laddo had rolled up to this year having moved up an age group and therefore did not get away with it ;)
4. they're lying :dont:

Ronald Velden
-25th September 2007, 14:55
Thank you for your responses.

I have taken on board what has been said and the regulations.

Fencers will be permitted to fence with 350N plastrons in U9/11/13
age groups where they are fencing with size 0 or 3 blades.

Fencers in Under 15/17 age categories where they fence with size 5
blades will be required to wear CEN2 [800N] Plastrons.

The Organizers of the Competition will only accept size 0 blades in
Under 9 age group.

I have spoken today to Leon Paul and they will bring a stock of
plastrons and blade to the tournament.

However I would ask all fencers who are entering the tournament t
ensure that their equiptment is in order be the tournament.

The entry is likely to be large and we don't want delays on account
of incorrect or inadequate equiptment.

StabInTheDark
-25th September 2007, 22:15
It is a BFA regulation, so is applicable to ALL competitions. Nobody at my school club is allowed to fence on a box without a 800N plastron - even using size 3 foils or size 2 epees or sabres. I have very few 350N plastrons left, and as I now know the number of beginners this year, I can get rid of those as well.



Bizzarely two years ago when I asked at a Leon Paul stand for an 800N plastron for an U11 I was advised to save my money and buy a 350N. I insisted on the higher standard.

There were a few comments made by coaches as well as parents at Durham LPJS that suggested because we run these competitions for young fencers there is a case for diluting the standards: it is at this point in their learning that their coaches have to take responsibility for ensuring that they know what to do, what equipment they should have and how to behave so they do not come a cropper at some important competition in a few years time. Just teaching the footwork bladework and ROW is not enough, I was disappointed to see a sizeable minority of U13's do not know how to salute, shake hands or thank the referee and don't have access to regulation spare weapon

Tubby
-26th September 2007, 00:09
There were a few comments made by coaches as well as parents at Durham LPJS that suggested because we run these competitions for young fencers there is a case for diluting the standards: it is at this point in their learning that their coaches have to take responsibility for ensuring that they know what to do, what equipment they should have and how to behave so they do not come a cropper at some important competition in a few years time. Just teaching the footwork bladework and ROW is not enough, I was disappointed to see a sizeable minority of U13's do not know how to salute, shake hands or thank the referee and don't have access to regulation spare weaponCould not agree more. It would be interesting to know if any particular club is repeatedly sending their kids out with the wrong kit and without a basic understanding of etiquette that way a quiet word could be had with the club coach. It would help avoid kids running foul of refs that apply the rules and having a miserable weekend when all that needed to have happened was a simple set of instructions in the club or sorting out the right kit. Mind you it can also be said that some refs may need a quiet word on keeping up with the rules themselves.

archer
-26th September 2007, 07:28
I am in agreement with these comments. It has been noticable at all the competitions this year thatw e have attended that fencers may have the required spare weapon, bodywire, etc but do not have them available at the piste. Hence time is lost when weapons or bodywires fail.

One interesting item is the lame (sorry but work computer does not allow me to add the appropriate accute). How many fencers actually have a lame that fits as described in the regulations? Ellie was advised at a competition by the referee, Mr Archer if memory serves me right, that her lame did not conform. So we promptly went to the Leon Paul stand and procured a new lame. Simple.

Parents , referees, coaches and fencers should all take responsibility in ensuring that the basics are covered.

Archer.

Lynne
-26th September 2007, 08:39
At the Leicester I carded an U17 fencer for not having the correct plastron. Before I did so, I went and checked in the LPJS series booklet so that I could show the fencer and his coach that it is actually in the rules for that competition as well as in the FIE rulebook. It is there with the rest of the kit requirements, including blade sizes. Size 5 blade = 800N plastron:)

Francois,C de R
-26th September 2007, 10:07
I cant agree more with tubby. But common standards work both ways. There are to my mind a number of fencers who transgress one way or another but because they and their parents are the ones who go from round to round, refs do not see a pattern and do to my mind give every possible leeway to individuals, sometimes to the irritation of other parents.

Ronald Velden
-26th September 2007, 11:11
We will be using experienced referees who will hopefully use common
sense in applying the rules. We want the event to be enjoyable and
a worthwhile experience as I hope the two sabre tournaments
[Camden International and Camden LPJS] were.

As I have explained we will endeavour to ensure that all fencers will
be advised prior to the tournament of rules so that we can avoid delays.

Leon Paul will be bringing equiptment to tournament and for record venue
is quite close to factory and shop if we run out.

Ronald Velden
-28th September 2007, 11:16
Please be advised that we have received up today 154 entries and that it
is likely that the final numbers will now exceed 200.

We will not accept any entries after Thursday 11th October. If you are
uncertain whether your entry has been received you can email Patricia
Aiyenuro on Nazarae@hotmail.com for confirmation.

We will not accept any entries on days of competition, but we will accept
payments on late entries, which have reached us by closing date.

Leon Paul will be bringing to the competition a large stock of equiptment
as well as an armourer.

Please ensure that your BFA cards are up to date and that your weapons
and equiptment meet current specification and standards.

Ronald Velden
-1st October 2007, 22:05
The entry has reached over 180 with 11 days to go.

Can you please ensure that all entries are received by Patricia Aiyenuro no
later than Thursday 11th October. No entries will be accepted after that date.

No application forms should be sent to me or Acland Burghley School. Two
application were sent to these addresses.

Ronald Velden
-3rd October 2007, 09:32
There has been a huge influx of entries over weekend, which has now
reached 210.

The UNDER 13 BOYS has reached 44. We will not accept more than 48
entries in that age group.

The entry for this competition is now CLOSED. We will accept entries
which were posted on Tuesday 2nd October [date stamped on that
date]

We will also accept entries, which were emailed or Phoned to Patricia
prior to this notice.

I apologise for this decision which has been taken on grounds of capacity
and safety.

rugmike
-4th October 2007, 22:02
Is this the record for the longest thread on a LPJS I wonder ?

Ronald Velden
-5th October 2007, 11:55
We have accepted 235 entries. In view of the postal strike anyone who
posted after September 28th should contact Patricia Aiyenuro [nazarae@hotmail.com] to establish if their entry has been accepted.

Noone who has sent applications, which are date stamped later than 2nd
October will be accepted. Also no entries will be accepted on day of
competition.

All fencers must be at the Sports Centre by the times allocated for check
in. If you have any problems you must telephone the Sports Centre.

Their telephone number is 020 7482 9894. My mobile number is 07788 752010
but I cannot guarantee reception in the Sports Centre.

Regards
Ronald Velden

Ronald Velden
-9th October 2007, 16:07
POSTAL STRIKE

Fencers who have applied for or who have renewed BFA Membership, but
have not received their cards due to postal strike should telephone
BFA on 0208 742 3032 and confirm with them that membership is
valid.

They should bring their membership number to the Tournament.

pinkelephant
-9th October 2007, 23:35
Standard procedure in such circumstances is that the BFA will send the fencer an e-mail on request confirming current membership, which can be printed and taken to the event. Otherwise the organisers have to take the fencer's word for it that the license is still current (a number alone tells one nothing). And while most fencers are completely honest...

Ronald Velden
-10th October 2007, 04:34
We will have up to date information about BFA Membership at Tournament and
will not be relying on fencers honesty.

Should a fencer be without a valid BFA card we will require them to complete
BFA application form and pay by cheque [not cash]

rugmike
-10th October 2007, 08:27
This is the longest thread on an LPJS.

Red
-10th October 2007, 10:54
This is the longest thread on an LPJS.

If you hadn't contributed to it, would this still be the case?

Tubby
-10th October 2007, 12:35
This is the longest thread on an LPJS.By what measure? Had we not been "banned" from discussion on the black cards another thread may still be running (but thats a may be). Refereeing ran to 70+ posts over 3 months.

Red
-10th October 2007, 13:03
By what measure? Had we not been "banned" from discussion on the black cards another thread may still be running (but thats a may be). Refereeing ran to 70+ posts over 3 months.

And the Leics LPJS discussion is currently at 33 replies... with this post, this one will only have 31.

Ronald Velden
-10th October 2007, 13:14
It is clear that Rugmike considers the thread too long and I must accept some blame for this.

However, he should be aware that this is our first foil competition and in
contrast to the sabre events where fencers,coaches and clubs appear
to be more street wise as to what is going on that is not the case here.

We have received large numbers of phonecalls and emails with a wide
range of issues. In the circumstances I felt that it was important to
cover these matters on website rather than being repetitive on a oneto one
basis.

For the record the entry exceeds 235. Had I not closed the tournament it
would now exceed 300. Furthermore we have not received many entries
from SE,SW,NW Regions because they are holding BYC Regional Qualifiers
on same weekend.

Second there have been a number of issues raised by coaches and fencers
about equiptment, which I have tried to deal with before the event.

Third I have dealt with the BFA Membership issue,because of the concerns
expressed about post. I have covered the issue with Headquarters and
assure all fencers that they will not be turned away if not in possession
of card. However, if BFA have not received application then they will have
to complete a fresh form and pay by cheque before we accept their entry
to Tournament.

I am not going to comment on the most recent matter of black cards although I have been alerted to what happened in Durham. I believe
that this has now been resolved.

All four tournaments which have been run by Camden have operated
efficiently with no problems or controvesy and I hope that this will
be the case this weekend and proves to be enjoyable for all concerned.

rugmike
-11th October 2007, 10:52
Now now Ronald, two questions of a quippish nature hardly "make it clear" I considered the thread too long.

Attribute not, that you be attributed back .......

You may make it as long as you wish, really, ether-time's free, after all!

It was a question I thought might provide a few Wisdenite Forum Statisticians with a chance to exercise the old grey cells. My second contribution was a little more controversial, admittedly, but was meant to draw a few more heads over the parapet.

It does, however, now you've given us a few more interesting details, strike me as odd that so many people going to an LPJS had so many queries - or is this the case with all LPJS foil comps ?
Being involved with a whacker rather than a pointer, I must confess this question has never come over my horizon before.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me on the question ?

Quite naturally, I am convinced Camden will once again put on a splendid do, and provide fun for all - even if it is a Dark Side promotion !
( Oh, Hi, Pat ! )

Clare Halsted
-11th October 2007, 17:54
As there is no mention of breeches on the entry form, I presume that, in accordance with the BF guidelines, either breeches (not necessarily 350N) or conforming tracksuit trousers are OK for U13,11,9. Can this be confirmed - thanks.
Clare

Hungry Hippo
-11th October 2007, 18:25
It does, however, now you've given us a few more interesting details, strike me as odd that so many people going to an LPJS had so many queries - or is this the case with all LPJS foil comps ?
Being involved with a whacker rather than a pointer, I must confess this question has never come over my horizon before.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me on the question ?

It just goes to show that Sabreurs are molly-coddled in all that they do so that they get it right - check out the Godollo thread to see my point!

This is of course good for them, and not just a dig, as the organization for junior/cadet sabre knocks the other two weapons into a cocked hat! But perhaps (continues dig) it has had to develop that way because of the type of competitors...........

Finally, LPJS Camden posts are now well clear of LPJS Leicester posts! But when you go to check how many, just take a look at how many posts there are for LPJS Bedford Sabre, and it proves my point!

rugmike
-11th October 2007, 18:41
It just goes to show that Sabreurs are molly-coddled in all that they do so that they get it right - check out the Godollo thread to see my point!

This is of course good for them, and not just a dig, as the organization for junior/cadet sabre knocks the other two weapons into a cocked hat! But perhaps (continues dig) it has had to develop that way because of the type of competitors...........

Finally, LPJS Camden posts are now well clear of LPJS Leicester posts! But when you go to check how many, just take a look at how many posts there are for LPJS Bedford Sabre, and it proves my point!


You refer, of course, to the Divine Right of Sabreurs, which is A Good Thing.

This involves always being "In the Right", even when at the wrong venue, on the wrong date, and late.

It also means the traditional query regarding numbers of them needed to change a light bulb, can be met with the reply "None."

This is because Sabreurs, unlike other sportspersons in similar disciplines, are not afraid of the dark.

And the phrase "molly-coddle" is about the last that comes to mind when you stick yer head round a bedroom/minibus/car door to wake a bunch of them up at 5.00 am in January for weapons inspection 40 miles away.

After taking a deep breath for oxygen , of course.

Who started this ??

archer
-11th October 2007, 19:54
Clare,

With regard to breeches all fencers should be wearing breeches. I have not been to a LPJS in four years where a competitor has been allowed to fence with tracksuit trousers.

Certainly as of last year when rules about clothing were changed for clubs the advice was that anyone fencing electric would have to wear breeches.

Archer

Keith.A.Smith
-11th October 2007, 21:18
Dear All,

Hope this large LPJS competition goes very well indeed.

Good luck to all the competitors and organisers.

Keith

Ronald Velden
-11th October 2007, 22:00
We expect fencers competing in this tournament to comply with BFA Regulations on dress code. A list of requirements are listed in the LPJS
booklet and that includes breeches.

There will be no flexibility in age groups from Under 11 upwards.

I have received in the last 2 days yet more emails including one on the
tournament timetable, which is:

SATURDAY
U13 Boys/Girls Final Check In 8.30 am
U15 Boys/Girls 10.30 am
U17 Girls 10.30 am

SUNDAY
U11 Boys/Girls Final Check in 8.30 am
U9 Boys/Girls 10.30 am
U17 Boys 11.00 am

Tournament rules will be posted at the venue, but I should mention
that in case of Under 9s because there is such a large entry I will
be running small pooles [4 in each]. There will be two rounds of pooles
for all fencers in this age group, which will be combined to produce the
final results apart from the top four fencers who will fence off in a third
round poole for MEDALS.

WE NEED URGENTLY GOOD STANDARD REFEREES PARTICULARLY ON SATURDAY arriving at 8.30am. I would appreciate any help that is offered.
Richard Kruse and David Buist are amongst those who have offered to
referee on both days and their help is greatly appreciated.

Red
-12th October 2007, 10:24
Clare,

With regard to breeches all fencers should be wearing breeches. I have not been to a LPJS in four years where a competitor has been allowed to fence with tracksuit trousers.

Certainly as of last year when rules about clothing were changed for clubs the advice was that anyone fencing electric would have to wear breeches.

Archer

Page 9 of the BF safety guidelines clearly states that those fencing with size 3 or smaller blades, electric or otherwise can fence in an FIE jacket with no plastron and that tracksuit bottoms may be worn instead of breeches.
If the requirement for wearing breeches at U13 and lower is not announced with the entry form, how on earth will you enforce it should somebody decide to come with an FIE jacket, but no plastron or breeches?

Ronald Velden
-12th October 2007, 11:21
Mr Archer has made it abundantly clear that at all tournaments, which he
has attended fencers have worn breeches.

I have also spoken to Leon Paul who organize the tournament circuit and
they have advised me that they expect fencers to wear breeches at their
events.

The list of equiptment required at LPJS tournaments is published in their
booklet.

As I have already stated we will be more flexible in the Under 9 event.

For the record you will have read on the thread that there will be a Leon
Paul shop at the venue. I am sure that they will be able to bring over more
equiptment on Saturday if they run short at stall.

I don't want to be a damp squib, but it is in the interest of all fencers to
wear the correct equiptment.

Red
-12th October 2007, 11:38
... but it is in the interest of all fencers to
wear the correct equiptment.

That was not my argument, however the LPJS book doesn't specify any equipment ratings for jacket or breeches, so what would happen if a 12 year old turned up with an unrated pair of breeches (not covered by the book) - BF safety guidelines say he can fence, what say you?

(The book says FIE plastron for U15 up, 350N for U13 down regardless of jacket... So that can't really be argued with)

pinkelephant
-12th October 2007, 13:01
That's why we state on the BYC bumf that everybody has to wear a plastron and breeches - we are more stringent than the BFA guidelines (as indeed I am at my school club, where everybody wears breeches as soon as they fence electric, whatever the weapon, and we now only have 800N plastrons).

Ronald Velden
-12th October 2007, 13:27
I think that the time to debate the equiptment regulations is after the
competition and preferably on a different thread.

I do not want participants to be confused by different interpretations.

Leon Paul have informed me that they expect fencers to wear plastrons
and breeches as clearly stated in their booklet. For the record it is
now mandatory for a plastron to be worn [see BFA regulations June
2007].

Leon Paul will be sending over an additional supply of plastrons and
breeches so hopefully everyone will be able to meet the tournament
requirements and have an enjoyable time.

Ronald Velden
-12th October 2007, 13:41
This is a message for Tubby. We would welcome you on Sunday as a
referee. I am sorry but I have not worked out yet how to send private
messages on website.

Personally I am computer illiterate despite having a son who is an
IT Consultant.

Tubby
-12th October 2007, 14:31
Is there a car park at the venue?

Ronald Velden
-12th October 2007, 15:59
Yes for about 50 cars [40 if they are large]. You can also park on adjoining
roads.

Tubby
-12th October 2007, 20:01
Good luck tomorrow, see you all on Sunday.

Ronald Velden
-14th October 2007, 19:48
The results from Under 11 upwards have been posted on the Camden website,
which is www.camdenfencingclub.org.uk Under 9s will be published shortly. In the meantime the final tableau was:

BOYS[entry 34]
1. Robert Feaster Evesham Excalibur
2. Felix Sudderick Aldershot
3. Dominic De-Almeida Fighting Fit
3. James Kelly Fighting Fit
5. Harry Bird Westminister Under School
6. Sam Harrison Sussex Scorpions
7. Theodore Richenberg Sussex Scorpions
8. Alex Howe Camden

GIRLS [entry 22]
1. Tia Lymm-Simms Fleetwood School
2. Isobel Clark Camden
3. Laren Price Four of Clubs,Bakewell
3. Evie Gold Fighting Fit
5. Zara Ali Camden
6. Sasha Llyod Team Melia
7. Anna McQueen Escrime
8. Beth Deer Newham

The total number of competitors fencing over the two days was 220.

I would like to thank Patricia Aiyenuro,Gabriella Sabharawal, Caroline Woollard
for all the hard work that they put in over the two days and before.

Also all the referees and in particular Richard Kruse and David Buist. I would
like to thank also Andrew Chang who spent the day refereeing before
returning to Harrogate. I apologise for not saying goodbye to him before he
left. Please accept my gratitude for your help.

Finally my thanks to Leon Paul and their armourer Nicholas Murphy who worked stoically throughout the tournament.

Barry Paul
-15th October 2007, 11:34
Finally my thanks to Leon Paul and their armourer Nicholas Murphy who worked stoically throughout the tournament.

At the LPJS competitions which we have a stand the person attending normally has his work cut out serving customers, so although they are able to help out on minor amourer problems that is not their main reason for attending. All large LPJS foil and epee events should try to have during a competition a trained armourer. I am sure Peter Huggins will be able to give competition organisers a list of trained armourers who can be approached to help out at any competition.

wingnutLP
-15th October 2007, 11:58
At the LPJS competitions which we have a stand the person attending normally has his work cut out serving customers, so although they are able to help out on minor amourer problems that is not their main reason for attending. All large LPJS foil and epee events should try to have during a competition a trained armourer. I am sure Peter Huggins will be able to give competition organisers a list of trained armourers who can be approached to help out at any competition.

Just to clarify Ronald tried to find an armourer but was unable to due to regional qualifiers and several other concurrent events. LP provided Nick as a one off special in general LPJS organisers need to provide their own armourers as the LP stand often doesn't have time to provide the service.

Alex

Tubby
-16th October 2007, 11:21
I would like to thank Patricia Aiyenuro,Gabriella Sabharawal, Caroline Woollard
for all the hard work that they put in over the two days and before.

Also all the referees and in particular Richard Kruse and David Buist. I would
like to thank also Andrew Chang who spent the day refereeing before
returning to Harrogate. I apologise for not saying goodbye to him before he
left. Please accept my gratitude for your help.

Finally my thanks to Leon Paul and their armourer Nicholas Murphy who worked stoically throughout the tournament.Ronald
I think what is being achieved at Camden is commendable and I was only too happy to be have been able to help out on the LP event. Thank you to your team who looked after me vary well.

I made a few mistakes as ref, wasn't on my best form, biggest, and it was a biggie, was leaving the piste to take a foil to Nick to look at. Many thanks to Karim Bashir who, rightly, gave me the verbal slap across the chops for leaving the piste with U9's unattended. I won't do that again.

Had an issue with one mask in the U17 which did not have any rating on it. It was a NM (never seen one before) and fairly new. So that was rejected. Some coaches didn't understand why I insisted on seeing the rating of underplastrons.

Good luck with next year's event.

Ronald Velden
-25th October 2007, 17:03
Camden LPJS results for U9 boys and girls now posted on Camden website,
which is www.camdenfencingclub.org.uk