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Coupe du Nord
-28th September 2007, 13:58
Results of poules, DE now on FIE website. Live results

pigeonmeister
-28th September 2007, 14:13
Jo Hutch just won her L64-15:6

rory
-28th September 2007, 14:42
Not exactly.
Top 16 from rankings and top 16 from poules aren't in yet.
So she's actually just won her 128.

http://www.fie.ch/External%5FData/resultats/sf-in/formule.htm

pigeonmeister
-28th September 2007, 14:45
Ah- silly me! Oh well, well done to her anyway!

cesh_fencing
-28th September 2007, 14:54
All 4 into the 64 (out of 96 entries). Great start. Byes to 3 and only Jo Hutch needed to fight in the 96.

Coupe du Nord
-28th September 2007, 15:28
Tomorrow Jessica (48)fences Ovtchinnikova CAN (17).
Chrystall (24) v Kim KOR (41)
Joanna (59) v Fedorkina RUS (6)
Louise (55) v Perrus FRA (10)

hokers
-28th September 2007, 16:00
That's excellent from all of them, well done!

5/6 from Chrystall, clearly on fire today, lost only to the UKR girl (who is 22nd in world this year)

Will have to tune in tomorrow :)

Coupe du Nord
-29th September 2007, 11:30
Jessica and Louise both lost their L64 fights 15 - 12

Coupe du Nord
-29th September 2007, 11:46
Chrystall out 15 - 12

hokers
-29th September 2007, 12:22
Jojo on at 14:45

MF results after poules:
COOK Keith GBR 1 0 V 0 0 3 1/6 -19 9 99th eliminated
BEEVERS James GBR 1 V V 4 V V 4/6 10 25 23rd
KRUSE Richard GBR 4 V4 V V3 2 V 4/6 2 23 35th
HALSTED Laurence GBR V V V 3 V 4/5 8 23 19th

Other 3 all through to L64, Kruse wins 15-12, Beevers 15-8, Halsted bye.

Good skills!

Coupe du Nord
-29th September 2007, 12:37
Jojo out 15 - 10

cesh_fencing
-29th September 2007, 16:01
Crystal 33rd
Jessica 48th
Louise 55th
Jo 59th

Entry of 91 so only Crystal will get GB ranking points

fa266
-29th September 2007, 17:49
Some surprising results, Rebecca Ward 17th and no Americans even in the semis...is US dominance at WS starting to wane? Ward and Zagunis both went out in 15-14s so I'd still fancy the US for the team event...

cesh_fencing
-29th September 2007, 22:14
Good luck to James, Richard and Laurence in there L64 tomorrow..

Red
-30th September 2007, 02:13
Some surprising results, Rebecca Ward 17th and no Americans even in the semis...is US dominance at WS starting to wane? Ward and Zagunis both went out in 15-14s so I'd still fancy the US for the team event...

You saw the videos of the americans the other week, and how it should be refereed. Maybe the hand on the knee had something to do with it?

3 Card Trick
-30th September 2007, 08:01
Hand to low = incorrect so Red may have something there.

fa266
-30th September 2007, 10:01
maybe Red but we also saw the Russians doing it and look who won? Given the very tactical nature of the American WS game I'd be surprised if that were the only reason...

3 Card Trick
-30th September 2007, 10:25
Kruse into 32. Good luck.

cesh_fencing
-30th September 2007, 11:13
Unfortunately James and Laurence out in 64.

cesh_fencing
-30th September 2007, 11:21
Jo Maynard did pretty well in the poules 3 up 3 down, but lost in L96 DE..

Hopefully Ladies Epee will start receiving equal support to some other weapons and that would help results improve..

We have some pretty good U17s and U20s which could be the target of future funding (including a World Cadet finalist from a year or so ago), but maybe the weapon is not very well represented in the International Commitee which makes things harder to get recognition..

Coupe du Nord
-30th September 2007, 13:04
Richard through to L16 beat Chida JPN 15 - 11

Coupe du Nord
-30th September 2007, 14:01
Richard lost in L16 15 - 5 to the No 2 seed Baldini (ITA)

pigeonmeister
-30th September 2007, 14:21
Bad luck, but overall a good result. Well done to all our Men's foilists.
I'm quite surpised that Vanni beat Cassara so easily; but no real upsets yet. The all Italian battle between Baldini and Sanzo should be good- old generation versus the new.

pigeonmeister
-30th September 2007, 14:57
L4
Kleibrink vs Joppich
Baldini vs Lei

Of these only Kleibrink didn't make the semis last year (coming 5th)- could even be a repeat of last year's final.

Ignition
-30th September 2007, 16:36
You saw the videos of the americans the other week, and how it should be refereed. Maybe the hand on the knee had something to do with it?

Sorry to slightly derail but could someone elaborate on this?

Thank you!

fa266
-30th September 2007, 17:00
As far as I understand it, FIE refs are now not recognising hand low as an attack at sabre, i.e. one fencer moving forward with hand below waist height and blade near the floor (thus not threatening the target area) is now not deemed to be technically attacking. This style has (in the past) been used by the US women's sabre team and a number of the Russian women sabreurs to good effects as it makes it very difficult for the opponent to beat (etc) the blade (at least i think this is the logic...)

pigeonmeister
-30th September 2007, 17:01
Joppich wins 15-9 in repeat of last year's final. Absolutely smashing favourite Kleibrink 15-4 in the semis as well.

FoilyDeath
-1st October 2007, 05:13
Am I the only one who found that the referee in the Lei v Baldini match was blatantly biast against Baldini? I just saw far too many bad calls...
Still, beautiful fencing on both sides.

pigeonmeister
-1st October 2007, 07:49
didn't watch it...but I think video refing makes it hard to be biased these days. Baldini still won...

hokers
-1st October 2007, 09:14
Remember fencing on Brit Eurosport today at noon.

cesh_fencing
-1st October 2007, 09:54
Well done to Alex and Chris in getting into the Last 64 for tomorrow.

Alex beat BEAUDRY CAN who is ranked 43rd in world rankings..

Chris had a fencer I guess was from Honduras (HON) and won well.

Neil went out however

hokers
-1st October 2007, 10:16
BUXTON Chris GBR 3 V 1 V 3 V 3/6 2 22
HUTCHISON Neil GBR 2 V 3 4 2 V 2/6 -6 21
O'CONNELL Alexander GBR 4 4 V 2 V 2/5 -1 20

46th, 67th, 57th respectively

O'CONNELL beats BEAUDRY 15-6
BUXTON beats IZAGUIRRE SANCHEZ 15-9
HUTCHISON loses to KIM 15-10

BUXTON has 9th seed PILLET Julien tomorrow
O'CONNELL has 5th seed WANG Jingzhi tomorrow

Well done guys, fingers crossed for tomorrow :)

Coupe du Nord
-1st October 2007, 10:56
Women's epee. A last 64 fight.
Geroutet (55) SUI v Bokel (10) GER
Bokel won 3 -2
That must have been exciting !!!!!!!!

hokers
-1st October 2007, 11:22
Nine clock minutes, so about 12 elapsed minutes probably and five hits.

OMG.

I bet this is what Eurosport put on later, and none of the sabre :(

Jan O'C
-1st October 2007, 12:23
BUXTON Chris GBR 3 V 1 V 3 V 3/6 2 22
HUTCHISON Neil GBR 2 V 3 4 2 V 2/6 -6 21
O'CONNELL Alexander GBR 4 4 V 2 V 2/5 -1 20

46th, 67th, 57th respectively

O'CONNELL beats BEAUDRY 15-6
BUXTON beats IZAGUIRRE SANCHEZ 15-9
HUTCHISON loses to KIM 15-10

BUXTON has 9th seed PILLET Julien tomorrow
O'CONNELL has 5th seed WANG Jingzhi tomorrow

Well done guys, fingers crossed for tomorrow :)

Very well done to Chris and Alex - it was fantastic to be able to watch the scores updated every couple of hits on the website. I second the 'fingers crossed for tomorrow' but am rather relying more on divine intervention as both Chris and Alex have seriously tough fights. Still, I thought Alex vs Beaudry would be very close and I was wrong so you never can tell - you've got to be in it to win it!!

pinkelephant
-1st October 2007, 14:26
Nine clock minutes, so about 12 elapsed minutes probably and five hits.

:(

Not necessarily. We had non-combativity called in both epee finals at the Manchester Cadet.

Gangsta G
-1st October 2007, 15:43
As far as I understand it, FIE refs are now not recognising hand low as an attack at sabre, i.e. one fencer moving forward with hand below waist height and blade near the floor (thus not threatening the target area) is now not deemed to be technically attacking. This style has (in the past) been used by the US women's sabre team and a number of the Russian women sabreurs to good effects as it makes it very difficult for the opponent to beat (etc) the blade (at least i think this is the logic...)This sounds right to me. I had a number of simultaneous hits given against me at Nationals because I was attacking from a low line whereas my opponent was not. Mike Garrity said that because I was not initially threatening my opponent's target, but my opponent was constantly threatening mine, my attack in effect started later. However (not sure if this is correct or not) I understood this only to apply for hits in the middle of the piste from 'play'. Hits where one fencer actually attacked another (i.e. down the piste) and hit them from a low line were given to the attacking fencer.

Red
-1st October 2007, 16:48
This sounds right to me. I had a number of simultaneous hits given against me at Nationals because I was attacking from a low line whereas my opponent was not. Mike Garrity said that because I was not initially threatening my opponent's target, but my opponent was constantly threatening mine, my attack in effect started later. However (not sure if this is correct or not) I understood this only to apply for hits in the middle of the piste from 'play'. Hits where one fencer actually attacked another (i.e. down the piste) and hit them from a low line were given to the attacking fencer.

Any correct attack into an incorrect attack (starts from around the knee or behind your thigh, generally anything below a good seconde) will have right of way - I don't think it matters whether its in the middle or when being chased down the piste. If you aren't threatening target, you aren't attacking.

Gangsta G
-1st October 2007, 16:59
Any correct attack into an incorrect attack (starts from around the knee or behind your thigh, generally anything below a good seconde) will have right of way - I don't think it matters whether its in the middle or when being chased down the piste. If you aren't threatening target, you aren't attacking.You would have thought so. But in my experience this is not what actually happens.

Red
-1st October 2007, 17:06
You would have thought so. But in my experience this is not what actually happens.

Indeed, which is why DS's seminars should be attended by all.

pigeonmeister
-2nd October 2007, 08:39
Alex out 15-10 to Wang. Getting 10 on the world number 4 is brilliant though..

Tom Bennet- 5/6
Willis- 2/3 so far..
Talyor 1/2 so far..
cadman 2/3

Saxon
-2nd October 2007, 09:09
Any correct attack into an incorrect attack (starts from around the knee or behind your thigh, generally anything below a good seconde) will have right of way - I don't think it matters whether its in the middle or when being chased down the piste. If you aren't threatening target, you aren't attacking.

Hmmm

Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if this were carried across to foil. "Sorry, your hand was waggling somewhere around your right ear. Attack left."

:whistle:

hokers
-2nd October 2007, 09:20
Buxton also out, 15-6 to PILLET

Wow Tarantino out in L64. Montano only scraped through 15-14.

BENNETT Thomas GBR V 3 V V V V 5/6 4 28
Cadman 4/5 at the moment, Willis 3/4

Jan O'C
-2nd October 2007, 09:30
Well done to both Alex and Chris for making the L64 and to all 4 WS.

It seems very harsh to me that only Chrystall will get domestic ranking points from this - she deserves them undoubtedly but so do the others who made it through to the 2nd day. If you win your 128 de fight in the Senior World Championships and make it through to the second day, it seems unreasonable that you don't get any points just because you fall a couple of places below half way. Take Chris's situation as an example - He will finish 56th out of 111 entries (Alex will finish 60th but probably only because he had a small poule so lacked the extra rabbit in his poule) so for half a place in Chris's case he gets no points and for 4.5 places in Alex's case. I understand that rules are rules but for the Worlds this seems unreasonable.

hokers
-2nd October 2007, 10:03
BENNETT Thomas GBR V 3 V V V V 5/6 4 28 = 26th
WILLIS Jonathan GBR V3 V4 V V 3 2 4/6 4 22 =61st
TAYLOR James GBR V 3 4 4 V3 3 2/6 -1 22 =100th
CADMAN Thomas GBR V V V V 0 V 5/6 12 25 =14th

Willis has drawn Taylor in the L128 DE, winner gets LI Guojie.
Bennett has a bye, gets the winner of COUFAL Zdenek vs SCHMID Florian.
Cadman must have a bye but he's not on the L128 Tableau yet

3 Card Trick
-2nd October 2007, 10:05
After Poules GBR positions.

Tom Cadman 14th
Tom Bennett 26th
Jon Willis 61st
James Taylor 100th.

Cadman qualifies for Last 64 as one of the top 16 from the poules.
Tom Bennett has bye from first pre qualifying round and will then face either Coufal (CZE) or Schmid (AUT)

Jon and James have drawn each other in the pre tableau and the winner will fence Li of China.

Best of luck to everyone.

3 Card Trick
-2nd October 2007, 10:48
Result between Willis and Taylor

Willis wins 15 - 9

Shame they had to meet each other.

3 Card Trick
-2nd October 2007, 12:25
Willis beats Li (CHN) 15 -12 so now joins Tom Cadman in the 64 tomorrow.

Nice one.

hokers
-2nd October 2007, 12:55
Damnit, Bennett just lost 15-14 :(

pigeonmeister
-2nd October 2007, 12:56
Damn- Bennett out 15-14 to Coufal after being 14-12 up.
Coufal got a L32 last year..

bad luck

cesh_fencing
-2nd October 2007, 14:04
Though not making the L64, a great 1st Senior Worlds for Tom Bennett. To get well inside the Top 50% is better than many of our more experienced fencers have managed over the other weapons.

This is the type of fencer who should be supported and well deserves funding as he has shown a huge improvement over the last 6 - 8 months.

With TC pretty much guarenteed at be in the Top 25% of his event, even now that is a great result, but both he an Jon have the potential to go much further.... Good luck.

hokers
-2nd October 2007, 14:26
Can someone explain why the format is different in epee?

Why did Tom B have to do two more rounds (albeit one a bye) to make the L64 that Tom C had a bye to from the Poules, given that their poule results were only different by +8 indicators?

Australian
-2nd October 2007, 14:32
Can someone explain why the format is different in epee?

Why did Tom B have to do two more rounds (albeit one a bye) to make the L64 that Tom C had a bye to from the Poules, given that their poule results were only different by +8 indicators?

Format is the same in all weapons.

Top 16 on world ranking don't do poules, ranked 1-16 in the D.E round of 64.

Everyone else does poules. Top 16 in the poules go straight into the D.E round of 64 in positions 17-32.

The remaining fencers who haven't been cut fence a preliminary D.E down to the last 32. These 32 fencer occupy the final 32 positions (33-64) in the D.E. round of 64.

This L64 is fenced on the 2nd day.

The reason why Tom had to fence two more rounds is entirely to do with the larger entry in the men's epee.

Andy
-2nd October 2007, 15:14
Format is the same in all weapons.

Top 16 on world ranking don't do poules, ranked 1-16 in the D.E round of 64.

Everyone else does poules. Top 16 in the poules go straight into the D.E round of 64 in positions 17-32.

The remaining fencers who haven't been cut fence a preliminary D.E down to the last 32. These 32 fencer occupy the final 32 positions (33-64) in the D.E. round of 64.

This L64 is fenced on the 2nd day.

The reason why Tom had to fence two more rounds is entirely to do with the larger entry in the men's epee.

Will this be the new system for the bigger Opens in the UK next season? Top 16 go through to L64 top 16 from poules go through to L64, and then everyone else fences down to a 32 and get's the top seeds... after 12pm...

Could well save on pistes and time... Sounds like it could just work!!!

A.

Baldric
-2nd October 2007, 15:35
Will this be the new system for the bigger Opens in the UK next season? Top 16 go through to L64 top 16 from poules go through to L64, and then everyone else fences down to a 32 and get's the top seeds... after 12pm...

Could well save on pistes and time... Sounds like it could just work!!!

A.

The new proposed format for our comps is described on this thread
http://fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9726

Ignition
-2nd October 2007, 16:28
Stanislav Pozdniakov retains the mens sabre title - nice come back from Aldo Montano at the end but not quite enough.

15 - 11

rory
-3rd October 2007, 10:29
Jon Willis is on at the moment against Fernandez (VEN).
Currently 5-3 down.
Scores updating regularly, tho not hit-by-hit.

http://www.fie.ch/External%5FData/resultats/em-in/tableau64.htm

hokers
-3rd October 2007, 10:30
Quicker updates on here:
http://live.fie.ch/encours-em-in.php

Tom C is out.

rory
-3rd October 2007, 10:36
Willis out 8-7 to the 6th seed in the L64.

3 Card Trick
-3rd October 2007, 11:27
Tom Cadman had to retire injured.

cesh_fencing
-3rd October 2007, 12:16
Bad luck Tom, hope it is nothing serious..

Ladies Foil

1st round
46 BENTLEY Anna GBR 0.500 -3 16 qualifié
54 EMANUEL Martina GBR 0.333 -5 18 qualifié (by 1 indicator)
57 WRIGHT Elizabeth GBR 0.333 -7 16 éliminé
68 BENNETT Claire GBR 0.000 -18 12 éliminé

In Last 96
Anna lose 15 - 9 to HANZELOVA Gyongyi SVK
Martina wins 15 - 8 against KAZANTSEVA Nataliya KAZ to face Granbassi Italy seeded No 1. Good luck for tomorrow

cesh_fencing
-3rd October 2007, 12:21
To clarify positions on left were poule clasification out of 76 with 92 entries total.

Actual final positions

Anna 66th
Liz 73rd
Claire 84th

*Elle*
-3rd October 2007, 15:18
I cant believe that YOU people have nothing better to do then sit there view our results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world!

Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!

*elle*

Baldric
-3rd October 2007, 15:26
I cant believe that YOU people have nothing better to do then sit there view our results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world!

Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!

*elle*

Easy Tiger!

For lots of us, this is the only way we have of following the event, and looking back over the thread, almost all the postings have been informative or supportive.

Everyone except the winners are going to have a disappointment at some time, and some commentator is going to pick over what went wrong. Sport at a high level is like that.

Baldric

hokers
-3rd October 2007, 16:01
None of this is analysis yet, it's just reporting the results, which speak for themselves.

We're proud of everyone's achievements but always hope we'll do better. This is true just about universally across watching any British sport.

It's very easy on the Intenet to read criticism in which isn't intended.

pigeonmeister
-3rd October 2007, 16:08
Sorry for taking an interest!!

I'm just picturing Wayne Rooney messaging Fanzone to say..havn't you got anything better than talk about the world cup!!

stupid post in my opinion..

Gav
-3rd October 2007, 16:36
I cant believe that YOU people have nothing better to do then sit there view our results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world!

Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!

*elle*

Did you actually read the thread?

The irony of this post is that it's attracting exactly the kind of criticism (of you) that you are complaining about.

Greg_Allen
-3rd October 2007, 17:09
What was the next result in this sequence?

23
27
157
84
54
61

rory
-3rd October 2007, 17:10
Bringing the discussion back on track....

ME's just finished.

Won by Krisztian Kulcsar of Hungary (who is, incidentally, 36, a full time lawyer, and finished last year ranked 429th, with nil points, because he'd "retired" ....)
And he's a nice bloke too...

Fernandez, who put out JW, got a L8.

Gangsta G
-3rd October 2007, 17:17
What was the next result in this sequence?

23
27
157
84
54
61Are these Jon Willis' results before Heidenheim - so the next would be 1?

pigeonmeister
-3rd October 2007, 17:28
Close but I don't think so. JW's results went:

30
139
29
96
64
1

I'm going for Krisztian Kulcsar's results this season..so you are right that the next result is 1!

Maxim
-3rd October 2007, 19:15
Couple of things I picked up in the Russian press, slightly off topic:

1. Rene Roche criticised Alisher Usmanov for providing the prize money to the medalists of WC2007. In an FIE press release he stated that the amounts are so small that fencers are offended by it. FIE did not allow to award the cheques on the podium.

2. The mens sabre quartefinal between Pozdnyakov and Sanson was decided by the last hit. After extensive reviews of video replay the referees awarded the hit to Poznyakov. After the fight Mr Roche allegedly held a meeting with all the referees stating that the decision was wrong and the hit should have been awarded to Sanson.

So, do you think:
1. Roche is right and no money should be awarded; or something (5,000 euros I think) is better than nothing?

2. Is Roche in a position to make such statements?

cesh_fencing
-3rd October 2007, 22:21
I cant believe that YOU people have nothing better to do then sit there view our results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world!
Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!
*elle*

Is reporting the results a crime. As I can see analysis has not actually happened yet and many of the posts are wishing our fencers good luck for the following days fencing.

When I was at the worlds generally no one actually had easy access to the results very quickly so public discussion was not possible, as such no one really seemed to care as you only heard the results in the next sword mag... You should be happy that you have so much support from the fencing community.

As regards the 'Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!' feel free to identify yourself and people can make up their own opinion if your performance was worthy of such bravado.

And to all the teams - Good luck for your team events over the next few days.

Chris Howser

Red
-3rd October 2007, 22:21
Couple of things I picked up in the Russian press, slightly off topic:

1. Rene Roche criticised Alisher Usmanov for providing the prize money to the medalists of WC2007. In an FIE press release he stated that the amounts are so small that fencers are offended by it. FIE did not allow to award the cheques on the podium.

2. The mens sabre quartefinal between Pozdnyakov and Sanson was decided by the last hit. After extensive reviews of video replay the referees awarded the hit to Poznyakov. After the fight Mr Roche allegedly held a meeting with all the referees stating that the decision was wrong and the hit should have been awarded to Sanson.

So, do you think:
1. Roche is right and no money should be awarded; or something (5,000 euros I think) is better than nothing?

2. Is Roche in a position to make such statements?

Is Roche French? Is Sanson? That would have something to do with whichever way the hit should'v gone in his eyes... Either way, with all due respect, M. Roche is not a GP sabre referee, the people that decided which way the hit went are - ergo they're right, and he's wrong. Keith Smith would be better placed to accuse the referee(s) of making an incorrect decision.
The money? If the Italian federation pays 35000 euros (maybe the result of a faulty memory) for a medal, then 5000 is nothing (but still useful, should cover equipment costs for the year...). However, that money would go a long way in Russia/Hungary/Poland/Romania/China etc... M. Roche is lucky enough to be born in Western Europe where such money can be called a pathetic gesture.

Red
-3rd October 2007, 22:29
As regards the 'Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!' feel free to identify yourself and people can make up their own opinion if your performance was worthy of such bravado.


I think she's one of the WS team judging by previous posts... Probably the one who placed highest... Am I wrong?

Foilling Around
-3rd October 2007, 23:00
I cant believe that YOU people have nothing better to do then sit there view our results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world!

Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!

*elle*

What the "elle" are you on about! I've reviewed the whole of this thread and there has not been a single critical comment. Your reaction however may very well draw some out.

rugmike
-4th October 2007, 09:16
I cant believe that YOU people have nothing better to do then sit there view our results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world!

Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!

*elle*


Extraordinary - from what I've seen (so far) what's been so wrong, even by "Elle"s own words ?

The results presumably are put up to BE viewed, and keeping up with a World Championship is a bit more than "nothing better to do ", surely - or perhaps it's not important enough ? So what is then?

And if by "analyse" she means don't say well done, hard luck, good luck, gosh that was good, gosh that was a bit disappointing - don't read the Forum.
Oh, and if she is a competitor, would she have felt a bit miffed if she won a title and no-one said anything ?

And, naturally, the "world-wide" thing is a bit off the mark - we're always told we're not truly representative of fencing 'cos there ain't enough of us !

Naturally, if the post was a spontaneous reaction to a personal bad result, I can understand her anger completely - but still doesn't make it correct !

As for the "if you're..............." - that shall remain a private matter between myself, my psychoanalyst, and anyone who wants to come outside in the car-park, mate.

hokers
-4th October 2007, 09:49
And thus ended the counter-attacks....

Back on topic, Eurosport should have just started now with the next set of WC highlights, go get to a TV!!

*but mute out James Chambers

edit: replaced by UEFA football :( :(

DAMN IT:
8.00am Fencing The World Championship. Action from the 50th staging of the event from St Petersburg, Russia, featuring the individual and team disciplines

funkygibbon
-4th October 2007, 10:45
Couple of things I picked up in the Russian press, slightly off topic:

1. Rene Roche criticised Alisher Usmanov for providing the prize money to the medalists of WC2007. In an FIE press release he stated that the amounts are so small that fencers are offended by it. FIE did not allow to award the cheques on the podium.

2. The mens sabre quartefinal between Pozdnyakov and Sanson was decided by the last hit. After extensive reviews of video replay the referees awarded the hit to Poznyakov. After the fight Mr Roche allegedly held a meeting with all the referees stating that the decision was wrong and the hit should have been awarded to Sanson.

So, do you think:
1. Roche is right and no money should be awarded; or something (5,000 euros I think) is better than nothing?

2. Is Roche in a position to make such statements?


If Roche has (as alleged) undermined the officials, then he is both stepping outside his remit as FIE president and being damn unprofessional. As for the money, if Roche is so upset about it, why doesn't he step up to the plate and set up prize funds for FIE tournaments. If Tigger et al can do it for Pro Sabre, then why can't the bloody FIE??? And which fencers were offended by it? Why haven't they spoken out if they really are? Prize money in what remains an essentially an amateur sport is a bonus. And on the subject of the ammount Red is right, that money will be a pretty decent takehome for many competitiors from eastern Europe. Roche is letting his frosty relationship with A.U cloud his judgement here I suspect.....

FG

Red
-4th October 2007, 11:55
At the risk of being flamed by Elle, Martina is out in the 64, 14-7 to the #1 seed Margherita Granbassi, who (judging from the result) had an incredibley boring last 32 fight (winning 7-6) beating Wan Wen Su (whose last 64 was equally tiresome, being won 5-4).

Red
-4th October 2007, 11:59
Tomorrow's fun and games begin at 8:30 local with the MF L32 (seeded 10th) against Venezuela (23rd), with the WS started at 11:30 (seeded 13th) against 4th seeds China.

Gav
-4th October 2007, 12:10
Great pic on BBC News.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7025950.stm

Take a look at pic 9.

Thanks to Rory for pointing it out.

Marcos
-4th October 2007, 12:15
I cant believe that YOU people have nothing better to do then sit there view our results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world!

Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!

*elle*

this is a far more interesting topic than regurgitating results we can see for ourselves.

I have a lot of simpathy for *Elle*, not that I know who she is (other than one of the WS team)

As a fencer you go from a situation where you practice your hobby in a certain amount of privacy - not many, if any, of your friends outside the sport have probably seen you fence or understand what it is all about...the best man at my wedding has seen me fence once in the 15 years I've known him!*...

As your career progresses, your results appear on websites, but again, outside of the sport no one really pays much attention aside from a suppoortive well done and maybe an announcement at school assembly

All of a sudden you are at a world championships and total strangers are talking about your results in a hit by hit commentary of your progress...a possible jolt for a young athlete..!

Given that all the fencers at the worlds have aspirations of the Olympics (if not, why are they there?) it may be worth the BFA spending a few minutes with each fencer talking through the greater focus they will be under.

So I think those of you who attacked *Elle*'s reaction are hasty to do so. Modern technology won't go away, *Elle*'s results are published in a breathless minute by minute format more associated with professional football, so some slack needs to be given to someone who obviously is coming to terms with what's going on

*Though he now teaches at Brentwood so is surrounded by the sport!

funkygibbon
-4th October 2007, 12:29
I cant believe that YOU people have nothing better to do then sit there view our results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world!

Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!

*elle*

Roid rage?

JohnL
-4th October 2007, 13:15
I cant believe that YOU people have nothing better to do then sit there view our results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world!

Come and have go if you think you're hard enough!!!

*elle*

And I haven't even posted on this thread yet!!!

I am however following the results with interest and hope to discuss/analyse the overall performance in due course. I hope to be able to say "Great results" or "Shows real promise!"

As for Elle's winging, if you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.

By the way, good luck in the team event.

Gav
-4th October 2007, 13:56
And I haven't even posted on this thread yet!!!

I am however following the results with interest and hope to discuss/analyse the overall performance in due course. I hope to be able to say "Great results" or "Shows real promise!"

As for Elle's winging, if you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.

By the way, good luck in the team event.


We all know you've got a spreadsheet (complete with degree level stats analysis) waiting in the wings...

pigeonmeister
-4th October 2007, 16:19
Our men's foil teams faces Venezuela and, assuming we win that, Poland and then potentially France.

Going to be an all Italian final in WF- indeed there were 4 Italians and 3 Hungarians in the L8!!

rugmike
-4th October 2007, 16:21
"........All of a sudden you are at a world championships and total strangers are talking about your results in a hit by hit commentary of your progress...a possible jolt for a young athlete..!."


Just do what many actors/writers/performers/athletes say they do - don't read the reviews !

Oh, and as someone obviously thinks they know who you are, and you are - good luck in the team event.

frog
-4th October 2007, 18:04
Thank you to all of you for your support and interest in these Championships so far. It's really nice to know that people are watching and supporting us from back home.

Team GB, from Russia with love!

rory
-4th October 2007, 21:14
That's *much* better. :)
Good luck guys... and gals.

Foilling Around
-4th October 2007, 22:12
That's *much* better. :)
Good luck guys... and gals.

Best of luck to all of the teams - including "elle"!

hokers
-5th October 2007, 09:03
WS team just lost 45-30 to China in L16

Twohat
-5th October 2007, 09:12
WS team just lost 45-30 to China in L16

Hey, don't be so judgemental . . . ;-)

hokers
-5th October 2007, 09:13
MF team beat Venezuela 45-35, then lost to Poland in the L16 45-23

kingkenny
-5th October 2007, 09:17
Ok here is something for us all to analize and judge. :cool:

As we have nothing better to do then sit here view other peoples results and be bothered enough to analyse them on the forum and tell the whole wide world! :eek:

These are taken at the worlds on a bad camera. Its some of Halsted and some of Kruse. The Baldini Kruse fight is interesting.

kingkenny
-5th October 2007, 09:19
http://www.youtube.com/v/36cHM78ZimU

http://www.youtube.com/v/BKX5iv3UrH0

http://www.youtube.com/v/kqB1dt27YCk

http://www.youtube.com/v/F47J4sQH60E

Red
-5th October 2007, 11:09
The Halsted fight seemed very close until he lost a few hits in a row...

The first Kruse video - is it me or does he make foil worth watching?
The second one, he just didn't seem to get going...

pigeonmeister
-5th October 2007, 12:01
I love watching Kruse fence, that reposte against the German to go 11-5 up is genius! The one to go 13-6 is almost as good!

It gives you some idea of just how good Baldini is...

funkygibbon
-5th October 2007, 12:13
I particularly liked the moment when they both pause and then Kruse charges at the guy at full tilt down the piste. Confident, aggressive fencing and very enjoyable to watch.

Lee Spiers
-5th October 2007, 12:38
Great. thanks for the links.

cesh_fencing
-5th October 2007, 13:04
http://www.youtube.com/v/36cHM78ZimU

http://www.youtube.com/v/BKX5iv3UrH0

http://www.youtube.com/v/kqB1dt27YCk

http://www.youtube.com/v/F47J4sQH60E

How can such a nice moderator not get huge amounts of positive rep for giving everyone these links...

Gav
-5th October 2007, 14:37
Having just watched the Kulcsar v Boisse fight I wuold have to say that Kulcsar completely deserved his win. He dominated throughout and it never looked in doubt that he was going to win.

Oh; and I have to mention that I thought the german commentator was quite boring.

Red
-5th October 2007, 14:52
Tomorrow's excitement comes from the MS against Poland, with the winner facing Russia in the last 16. Not to sound pessimistic, but I doubt either team stands an ice lolly's chance in a blast furnace of beating Russia.
No WE team, so no fun there.

rugmike
-5th October 2007, 14:56
How can such a nice moderator not get huge amounts of positive rep for giving everyone these links...

Payment ?

hokers
-5th October 2007, 15:12
Tomorrow's excitement comes from the MS against Poland, with the winner facing Russia in the last 16. Not to sound pessimistic, but I doubt either team stands an ice lolly's chance in a blast furnace of beating Russia.
No WE team, so no fun there.

There is always a chance. If you go into a fight believing you have no chance you may as well not bother. An upset is NOT beyond the realms of possibility, our MS team has some excellent fencers in.

That said, the Russian team's rankings are 1, 3, 33, 72 and ours are 108, 117, 167 and 291, so it's probably reasonable to call them underdogs ;)

Red
-5th October 2007, 15:33
We can hope that Poz sprains an ankle and Yakimyenko badly hurts his hand... Oh dear, an image of Yuri Geller on GMTV during Euro 96 or France 98 has just come into my mind....

cesh_fencing
-5th October 2007, 15:38
That said, the Russian team's rankings are 1, 3, 33, 72 and ours are 108, 117, 167 and 291, so it's probably reasonable to call them underdogs ;)

As a Brit won Heidenheim this year, it proves anything is possible....

kingkenny
-5th October 2007, 16:01
Last one this took ages to upload and was too big for you tube so here is Richard in a full fight from start to finish.

www.leonpaul.co.uk/kruse_07.mp4 (http://www.leonpaul.co.uk/kruse_07.mp4)

cesh_fencing
-5th October 2007, 16:29
Ladies Sabreurs have beaten both Germany and Hungary today to finish 10th beating their starting ranking by 3 places. Really well done.

I cannot think of any occasions in recent World Champs that a GB team has beaten two such fencing powerhouses at the same event.

Bad luck about China, however it looks like you must have kept it together well & have shown real grit througn the day. Great scalps.

hokers
-5th October 2007, 16:48
WOW!

That is outstanding work from the WS girls! I thought they were just going to do simple DE.

MF team beat Romania and the Ukraine to finish 11th! Pretty damn good again.

Likely to affect team rankings for Olympic qualification? Real pity that there's no MF in Beijing.

Baldric
-5th October 2007, 16:48
Ladies Sabreurs have beaten both Germany and Hungary today to finish 10th beating their starting ranking by 3 places. Really well done.

I cannot think of any occasions in recent World Champs that a GB team has beaten two such fencing powerhouses at the same event.

Bad luck about China, however it looks like you must have kept it together well & have shown real grit througn the day. Great scalps.

Well done the WS Team! :not_worth

cesh_fencing
-5th October 2007, 18:14
MF team beat Romania and the Ukraine to finish 11th!

Just finished one place below their starting position but a couple of really good wins...

thedoc
-5th October 2007, 18:42
Now would be a good time to point out that going into the last bout against the ukraine, gbr were 32-28 down.

3 minutes and 1 richard kruse later the final score was 45-33 in favour of gbr.

the ukranian coach must have had a fit.

Red
-5th October 2007, 19:10
Now would be a good time to point out that going into the last bout against the ukraine, gbr were 32-28 down.

3 minutes and 1 richard kruse later the final score was 45-33 in favour of gbr.

the ukranian coach must have had a fit.

Did anybody video this holy display of might?

Duncan Rowlands
-5th October 2007, 20:30
Pity this won't make it to Eurosport.

Spider5
-5th October 2007, 20:34
Now would be a good time to point out that going into the last bout against the ukraine, gbr were 32-28 down.

3 minutes and 1 richard kruse later the final score was 45-33 in favour of gbr.

the ukranian coach must have had a fit.

Awesome comeback.

Red
-5th October 2007, 22:17
Awesome comeback.

That's not a comeback... To win having been 15 hits down is a comeback, to win a bout 17-1 when 6 would have sufficed is pure annihilation...

Dutch
-6th October 2007, 07:44
great news The boys have just beaten poland 45 something!!!!!!

marg
-6th October 2007, 08:02
great news The boys have just beaten poland 45 something!!!!!!

Yep they won 45:43 ! To get into the 16.
Next match Russia in about 5 mins. Be very afraid!!

Ignition
-6th October 2007, 09:02
MS team defeated by Russia 19 - 45.

Korea next in round 9 - 16, at 9:20 BST / 12:20 local time.

hokers
-6th October 2007, 10:01
Lost 45-36 to Korea

Red
-6th October 2007, 11:52
Have beaten Venezuela 45-38, now Canada stand in the way of 13th place.

Red
-6th October 2007, 11:54
Oh dear, Poz won't be able to add to his medal collection - Russia are out 44-45 to Hungary in the last 8. France and Hungary in the final.

Red
-6th October 2007, 12:07
Currently Canada 35 - 28 GBR

Now 40 - 32

43-34...

Red
-6th October 2007, 12:13
Lost to Canada 45-35, GBR MS team finish 14th

Red
-7th October 2007, 10:24
ME out in the L32 to Russia 39-31.
WF beat Singapore 40-22 in the L32, then lost to Italy 37-21 in the L16.
In the tableau for 9th place, they were then beaten by France 45-19, they now fence Canada for a shot at 13th place.

Foilling Around
-7th October 2007, 19:17
France did not win a single gold medal, but won 4/6 team events - discuss!

Ignition
-7th October 2007, 20:10
France did not win a single gold medal, but won 4/6 team events - discuss!

Strength in depth I guess :)

*Elle*
-8th October 2007, 10:41
[QUOTE=JohnL;183928]
As for Elle's winging, if you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.
QUOTE]

Wow! I seemed to have caused quite a stir!
I thought i ought to clarify some things.... although it is others who prompt me to make a response.

Firstly i am in no need to 'get out of the kitchen' as i am not suffering from 'the heat' nor am i in any heat!

Secondly, some people have analysed the results, giving indicator scores and point etc from pooles.

Its funny that one lil person can make a post and cause such a great interest! Wanting to know who i am, what weapon i am.... let my name not decept you i could be a guy!! I must say i find it funny because one thing i meant about my post was the need to discuss things it seems like some people have lots of time on their hands!

Needless to say perhaps my words deemed harsh and perhaps i should have explained myself better. What i really meant was why are you all so interested in all of the nitty gritty and feel the need to discuss it. I suppose as a fencer out there we know the results and the goings on therefore i cant quite comprehend why it would be so interesting.

I have read all your points and comments. I understood why you want to know and appreciate support from some and accepted criticism from others.

To those who i have offended i am sorry!

Elle x

Red
-8th October 2007, 11:01
France did not win a single gold medal, but won 4/6 team events - discuss!

They want to be in the best possible position for Olympic qualification?

They are #1 in the FIE team rankings for ME, WE and WS, and #2 for MF and MS so looking very good...

Gangsta G
-8th October 2007, 11:36
Secondly, some people have analysed the results, giving indicator scores and point etc from pooles...I must say i find it funny because one thing i meant about my post was the need to discuss things it seems like some people have lots of time on their hands!I could be wrong, but I think you'll find that those who are posting indicator scores etc are actually just copying and pasting from the FIE website. As for the discussion/analysis you talk about - maybe I haven't been following this thread closely enough, but the majority of it seems to be reporting GBR (and other) results, saying who's fencing the next day, wishing people good luck, etc etc. I don't remember any actual criticism of GBR fencers.

Ignition
-8th October 2007, 15:03
Wow! I seemed to have caused quite a stir!
I thought i ought to clarify some things.... although it is others who prompt me to make a response.
<snip>
To those who i have offended i am sorry!

Elle x

Thanks for this, it takes class to come back to a thread and try and set the record straight especially when you know you may have rubbed people up the wrong way. :)

Insipiens
-8th October 2007, 16:05
I could be wrong, but I think you'll find that those who are posting indicator scores etc are actually just copying and pasting from the FIE website. As for the discussion/analysis you talk about - maybe I haven't been following this thread closely enough, but the majority of it seems to be reporting GBR (and other) results, saying who's fencing the next day, wishing people good luck, etc etc. I don't remember any actual criticism of GBR fencers.
I think Elle is talking about the reports saying the score is currently 10-8, now it's 12-9 etc...
I am not sure I would call that analysis and I think that different use may have caused some of the confusion and "offense" in people's reactions.

We all have better things to do than follow the score hit by hit on the internet - you wouldn't do it with every bout at a local open you were at, but somehow because information is limited it becomes more appreciated. I can imagine someone who is there and watching UK fencers might find this a bit obsessive or over the top.

cesh_fencing
-8th October 2007, 18:23
We all have better things to do than follow the score hit by hit on the internet - you wouldn't do it with every bout at a local open you were at, but somehow because information is limited it becomes more appreciated. I can imagine someone who is there and watching UK fencers might find this a bit obsessive or over the top.

I do not feel it is obsessive at all to follow the score on the internet. If it is a crucial fight, even though you are not there you are wanting that next light to be for the GBR fencer...

In most offices when England play cricket there will be people with the live scorecard on their PC (if allowed). Hundreds of thousands of people get football text alerts on goals scored in the Premiership, let alone watch 'Score' on BBC which is just live scores with no actual watching of football.... Are all these people obsessive?

I like to know how well our fencers are doing and the World Championships is hardly a local Open. These are fencers representing British Fencing and a portion of their funding is coming from our membership fees so we obviously would love it if they do really well...

People paying this attention to how well our fencers are doing should be commended and if we could get more of our younger fencers interested in following the exploits of the team that would be a positive step forward.

With many of the top fencers either not being allowed to take part in many Opens or not deeming them worth doing a gap may appear where our up and coming fencers will not actually know who our International fencers are therefore not have the roll-models to follow.

silvercross
-9th October 2007, 11:21
France did not win a single gold medal, but won 4/6 team events - discuss!

Got a better one for ya:

The italian women foilists won 3 of 4 medals at the individuals, gold, silver, and one bronze. The fourth member of the group came 5th.

In the team event, they got knocked out in the L-8.

Poland, who won the Team gold, had their highest ranked fencer in the individuals at 22nd (Gruchala). The rest were 25th, 49th, and 50th.

Explain that one! :)

iamtheshizzle
-9th October 2007, 12:15
i would like to just say well done to all of the fencers we had at the worlds this year.

there are a lot of people on this forum who are bitter that they or there partners or their children didnt get funding and dont get selected because they are not very good and they like to publicly moan about the system and the people in it.

And i dont get the obsession with this idea of free passes. if you are funded and you get taken because you are a potential for the future what is the point in everyone complaining about it, they are obviously better than anyone/ you because they are the funded people.

cesh_fencing
-9th October 2007, 14:22
And i dont get the obsession with this idea of free passes. if you are funded and you get taken because you are a potential for the future what is the point in everyone complaining about it, they are obviously better than anyone/ you because they are the funded people.

See the below thread for the best set of arguments why the selection criteria should be met by the President of British Fencing.

www.fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7177

cesh_fencing
-9th October 2007, 14:24
there are a lot of people on this forum who are bitter that they or there partners or their children didnt get funding and dont get selected because they are not very good and they like to publicly moan about the system and the people in it.

Everyone is happy that top Britiish Fencers are being so well supported at last, however the way it has been done was not transparent from day 1 and promises made to many of those on the scheme have not been fulfilled so the whole issue is clouded, both for those on or off funding.

In most cases I have not come across 'moaning', rather a request for information to create clarity in what is done.

I agree that there are many people on this forum with interests in this subject, however to say all of these fencers are 'not very good' is a joke as many of those effected are currently ranked higher than those on the scheme without a year of funding and support. And some are younger with arguably better technique and more potential.

Gangsta G
-9th October 2007, 16:18
France did not win a single gold medal, but won 4/6 team events - discuss!
Got a better one for ya:

The italian women foilists won 3 of 4 medals at the individuals, gold, silver, and one bronze. The fourth member of the group came 5th.

In the team event, they got knocked out in the L-8.

Poland, who won the Team gold, had their highest ranked fencer in the individuals at 22nd (Gruchala). The rest were 25th, 49th, and 50th.

Explain that one! :)I think this goes to show just how close all the fencers are at the top level. C/f the 2004 Olympics (WS), Mariel Zagunis only qualified because a fencer withdrew - and she won it!

silvercross
-9th October 2007, 17:02
True, to an extent.

Did you see the results in the DE's for Vezzali and Salvatori? They seemed to be cruising all the way to the L-8. In fact, save for Trillini's first three DE's which were nailbiters, it seemed they (all the italians) nearly planned to meet one another in the L-4.

It just boggles the mind that at a team event, that much awe inspiring talent (Tried counting the medals won between the four. Lost track after Vezzali) would not be able to meld into an unstoppable force. Perhaps there were 'team issues'? Perhaps they were victims of their own success...

Gangsta G
-9th October 2007, 18:40
We can speculate forever as to why it was that the Italians didn't win the team event (which on paper, based on the results from the individuals, they certainly should have done). Perhaps it's just that everything came together for the girls during the individuals, but it all fell apart during the team - too much pressure after such a good showing in the individuals? It certainly seems strange that they were defeated 17-16 (a low score even for women's foil I think?) by Japan - all of whom finished in the L32 of the individual. Maybe they all had relatively 'easy' runs through the tableau in the individual event so their results are misleading (unlikely given that all but one got a medal), and the Japenese all had difficult L32 draws?

Personally, I don't know why it was - I'll leave it to the Italian performance director to find out!

silvercross
-10th October 2007, 09:01
I'm a big fan of group dynamics theories. Probably why this particular case interests me so much.

In this case it seems the whole was not greater than the sum of it's parts.

And you are right, it is up to the Italian performance directors to figure it out (but if we get any insight it helps us out as well) :)

JulianRose
-10th October 2007, 10:33
also the fact you are only doing 5 hits a time. the french at the last olympics in Mens Sabre trained specifically for the team event. all did poorly at individual, but then they walked off with team gold.

kd5mdk
-10th October 2007, 19:27
they are obviously better than anyone/ you because they are the funded people.

What logic. I presume you haven't actually examined the selection criteria and how it has been implemented.

Foilling Around
-10th October 2007, 19:41
i would like to just say well done to all of the fencers we had at the worlds this year.

there are a lot of people on this forum who are bitter that they or there partners or their children didnt get funding and dont get selected because they are not very good and they like to publicly moan about the system and the people in it.

And i dont get the obsession with this idea of free passes. if you are funded and you get taken because you are a potential for the future what is the point in everyone complaining about it, they are obviously better than anyone/ you because they are the funded people.

I agree wholeheartedly with the first sentence, but with regards to the section I have highlighted I know I shouldn't rise to this errant rubbish, but please actually read the threads on selection and pathway before slagging people off.

Systems need to consistent, fair and transparent. If they are, then few people will complain about the outcomes. When a lot of people complain about a system it is generally not because they are bitter, but because the system itself has flaws. My offspring has infact benefited from the system so far, but I am still quite vocal in my positive suggestions for improvements.

I am far from perfect (I take my share of the blame for the confusion over MF cadet selection events this year, for example) but what I will do is hold up my hands and say that I will take suggestions on board to improve things for next time.

Could I ask you to; cut out the insults; let your fencing do the talking and when you do contribute to the forum make it positive. I hope I don't know you to talk to because that will mean I have misjudged someone completely, as I cannot imagine who is being so rude and direspectful.

I hereby take the pledge that this is my last rise to the bait. Any further posts of this type by iamtheshizzle will show that the person concerned is not interested in actual debate, but just sensation seeking.

Baldric
-10th October 2007, 19:46
I hereby take the pledge that this is my last rise to the bait. Any further posts of this type by iamtheshizzle will show that the person concerned is not interested in actual debate, but just sensation seeking.

Its just a Troll. Ignore it and it will soon go away.

B.

Boo Boo
-10th October 2007, 20:18
Its just a Troll. Ignore it and it will soon go away.

B.

Or disgruntled teenager... :rolleyes:

Ditto about ignoring it... the things that he posted were just too bizarrely immature to comment upon.

Boo

Foilling Around
-10th October 2007, 20:46
Or disgruntled teenager... :rolleyes:

Ditto about ignoring it... the things that he posted were just too bizarrely immature to comment upon.

Boo

I know, I know, but I just can't help myself and I keep on trying to reason with the unreasonable. I do it at school as well and my blood pressure goes through the roof. The thing is that once in a hundred attempts it actually works - and then it is a fantastic feeling to have got through!