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silvercross
-17th October 2007, 08:45
It Starts TODAY! WHOOOOHAAAAAHHH!!! :D

There's that crackle in the air, the tinge of metal sparks as blades meet.

80's Glamrock takes over with the unending auditory barrage of 'The Final Countdown'

Epee, Sabre and Foil, Oh My!

It's fencing time!!!!!:D

(yes, bored at work, but happy the BUSA season is up and running today)

Swords Crossed
-17th October 2007, 10:22
it only starts today for some! We have to wait til next week! Good luck to all you fencing today!

TLove
-17th October 2007, 14:15
Mens 2nds and Womens teams start today...

...Mens 1sts next week...

...shame I can't fence for them any more. However, I might fence some of their first-match opposition at training next Tuesday. Needless to say, I'll be aiming for some nasty thwacks to elbow :whistle:

silvercross
-17th October 2007, 14:51
Our ladies (when I left them), had just won foil 45-18 against UCLAN.

Our men don't fence until next week, and then its the men's 1st v. the men's 2nds :shrug:

pinkelephant
-17th October 2007, 19:48
Anyone got results for Birmingham/Northumbria?

PM1
-17th October 2007, 20:10
Yup - via Charlotte (of course)

Nrthumbria 132 - Brum 104 :D

I know no more, but I know that much......several defunct phone bateries :mad:

Gangsta G
-17th October 2007, 20:17
Yup - via Charlotte (of course)

Nrthumbria 132 - Brum 104 :D

I know no more, but I know that much......several defunct phone bateries :mad:I was pleased with our performance against a very strong Northumbria side. I look forward to seeking revenge in the return fixture!

Duncan Rowlands
-17th October 2007, 20:19
PM1 beat me to it.

Apparently Stenner got 15 hits in one epee fight (:eek: ) & only dropped 1 hit in the sabre.

Duncan Rowlands
-17th October 2007, 21:09
Sorry, that was Newcastle - Birmingham, not Northumbria.

I get confused training with people from both of them. :o

fencingmum
-17th October 2007, 21:35
Well done, Edinburgh girls! First blood!

silvercross
-18th October 2007, 09:15
Is there any particular reason why the scottish unis are not listed in BUSA fencing? :confused:

twohappyhippos
-18th October 2007, 10:20
Is there any particular reason why the scottish unis are not listed in BUSA fencing? :confused:

I think the reason why is because we haven't had our qualifiers yet. They are due to take place on 3/4 November. After the qualifiers we hopefully 'fingers crossed' be in BUSA!


On a happy note - yai for the Edinburgh girlies!!! Good way to start the season.

pigeonmeister
-19th October 2007, 12:24
Well done to the Northumbria lads, a great bunch and always a pleasure to fence. Slightly unnerving that several had shaved their legs/chests and applied fake tan but I gues it takes all sorts!

Anway, they demolished are epee team (not surprising considering I have gone from part time no.3 to no.1 epeeist and hadn't picked up one of the silly things since March!) After that it was always going to be tough, but we gave it our best shot. Northumbria should walk the league this year, and fair play to them.

Gangsta G
-19th October 2007, 12:34
they demolished are epee team Call yourself a phd student? That's awful grammar!

pigeonmeister
-19th October 2007, 12:47
Their is nothing wrong with pigeonmeisters grammar!

Gangsta G
-19th October 2007, 16:51
Know they're isnt

PM1
-19th October 2007, 17:23
Well done to the Northumbria lads, a great bunch and always a pleasure to fence. Slightly unnerving that several had shaved their legs/chests and applied fake tan but I gues it takes all sorts!


:mad: hmmm......one of them better not be Boy........:mad:

Dalesman
-20th October 2007, 09:03
:mad: hmmm......one of them better not be Boy........:mad:

Now there would be a sight to behold :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: AHHHHHHHH

PM1
-20th October 2007, 10:07
Given his hairy legs - indeed it would !! But he assures me it wasn't and it won't be (as if I were to believe THAT....):whistle:

Dalesman
-20th October 2007, 21:49
Given his hairy legs - indeed it would !! But he assures me it wasn't and it won't be (as if I were to believe THAT....):whistle:


Now them PM1, this would infer that you have some parental control over an adult :whistle:

As I found out today, when there gone, there gone :eek: :eek:

Still there is, the other one I have some minor control over :D :D (but not for long)

PM1
-20th October 2007, 22:26
Of COURSE I have some parental control....I have the cheque book and he hsan't sussed the pin number yet...(I think)...:whistle:

Dalesman
-20th October 2007, 22:55
Of COURSE I have some parental control....I have the cheque book and he hsan't sussed the pin number yet...(I think)...:whistle:

Oh how naive us parents are, they come for cuddles and say how wonderful we but what they really wany is OUR MONEY :whistle: :whistle:

And we complain of course not, they are wonderful and worth every penny and grey hair.:D :D

pinkelephant
-22nd October 2007, 11:20
Well done to the Northumbria lads, a great bunch and always a pleasure to fence. Slightly unnerving that several had shaved their legs/chests and applied fake tan but I gues it takes all sorts!



Hope it wasn't the horizontal stripes on one leg and vertical on the other that one team member has sported before.:whistle:

Another fencer
-25th October 2007, 08:37
I noticed Liverpool 1 vs Liverpool 2 produced a rather remarkable result - is this a typo or the new target for everyone to aim for in BUSA matches?

http://www.busa.org.uk/fl/cv.asp?DivisionID=8037

silvercross
-25th October 2007, 09:04
It was purely a misprint/misreporting.

It was more along the lines of 135-90-something. Somewhere between our AU reporting it and it being placed on the BUSA website some 80-odd points got deleted.

I'd like to think our men's 1st is THAT supremely powerfull, rather than our men's 2nds is made up of scarecrows we made for halloween (the 9 points came from doubles on epee! :p )

However, :eek: Birmingham?

Que les esta pasando, gente?

pigeonmeister
-25th October 2007, 09:22
However, :eek: Birmingham?

Que les esta pasando, gente?

We have been hit hard this year by the loss of 3 key members of the team-I was also lecturing yesterday so couldn't fence. To compound things, I heard that the team broke down yesterday on the way back :(

It's the nature of Uni fencing- we had 2-3 great years and now we have a slightly less experienced team. Watch out for Tom Potterton in the individuals though...and the season is yet young!

silvercross
-25th October 2007, 09:56
Indeed there is still a lot of fencing to be done before the season ends.

I Hope I'm able to go to the individuals this year in a fencing capacity. It's always a good laugh (and usually falls on or near my birthday weekend, so good allround fun!:D ).

Gangsta G
-25th October 2007, 10:25
To compound things, I heard that the team broke down yesterday on the way back :(Also our women's team train to Edinburgh was cancelled.

We are still going to Sheffield.

KJK
-25th October 2007, 12:10
But they made it up there and fenced! Congrats to the girls from Edinburgh!:)

Swords Crossed
-26th October 2007, 11:21
It was purely a misprint/misreporting.

It was more along the lines of 135-90-something. Somewhere between our AU reporting it and it being placed on the BUSA website some 80-odd points got deleted.

I'd like to think our men's 1st is THAT supremely powerfull, rather than our men's 2nds is made up of scarecrows we made for halloween (the 9 points came from doubles on epee! :p )

However, :eek: Birmingham?

Que les esta pasando, gente?

I have informed our AU of the problem, and it has been corrected. The actual score was 135-91, NOT 135-9 (I mean, were good, but were not THAT good!)

It seems our AU accidently typed in the results wrong (or so they say...)

Bambi
-4th November 2007, 20:22
For those not in the know the Scottish BUSA Qualifiers were held this weekend in Aberdeen.

As usual a high level of fencing from all the uni's, and a high level of drinking after. Managed to get most of the uni's into one resturant too which was extremely impressive.

As for results:

Mens Div 1
Edinburgh - 1st
St Andrews - 2nd
Aberdeen - 3rd
Dundee - 4th
Herio-Watt - 5th - demoted to 2nd division

Mens Div 2
Edinburgh 2 - 1st
Glasgow - 2nd - promoted to 1st division
Strathclyde - 3rd
St Andrews - 4th

Womens Div 1
St Andrews - 1st
Aberdeen - 2nd
Dundee - 3rd
Glasgow - 4th - demoted to division 2

Womens Div 2
Edinburgh 2 - 1st - promoted to division 1
Heriot-Watt - 2nd

Well done everyone and thanks to Aberdeen for hosting.

pqg
-5th November 2007, 10:33
Mens Div 2
Edinburgh 2 - 1st
Glasgow - 2nd - promoted to 1st division
If Edinburgh 2 won the division, why aren't they promoted? (the fact that they would then be in the same division as Edinburgh 1 is not reason alone, since as noted above, Liverpool 1st and 2nd teams are already in the same division)

silvercross
-5th November 2007, 10:54
I believe I can answer that question half heartedly...

Scotland has a Division I and Division II from which to promote/demote teams. BUSA in all its grace has blessed THE NORTH with a Division IA and a Division IB, both equal in level (so as to avoid trips such as Newcastle/Liverpool, for example or BANGOR/NEWCASTLE :eek: ). I would be in favour of THE NORTH reorganizing it to Div I and II, since I feel there are enough good universities fencing at the moment and fielding two teams (Newcastle is another one of those).

However, a slight drop in the number of University fencing squads in THE NORTH (don'tcha just love saying that :D )would make that a problem.

Gangsta G
-5th November 2007, 11:07
If Edinburgh 2 won the division, why aren't they promoted? (the fact that they would then be in the same division as Edinburgh 1 is not reason alone, since as noted above, Liverpool 1st and 2nd teams are already in the same division)BUSA rules state that only first teams may compete in the premier league (or something like that - can't find it in the handbook). Edinburgh women's 2nds are, presumably, an exception as their 1st team are in the English Northern Premiership. Liverpool 1sts and 2nds aren't in the Premiership, so BUSA don't mind them being in the same division.

Bambi
-5th November 2007, 11:16
BUSA rules state that only first teams may compete in the premier league (or something like that - can't find it in the handbook). Edinburgh women's 2nds are, presumably, an exception as their 1st team are in the English Northern Premiership. Liverpool 1sts and 2nds aren't in the Premiership, so BUSA don't mind them being in the same division.

Yup, thats pretty much the reason. Don't know what happens though if Edinburgh Ladies 1st dont stay in the English Premiership next year, or are they there forever??

UWBF
-5th November 2007, 11:36
I totally agree with you Silvercross, I think it would be great if the north had two tiers in BUSA, I'd be much more likely to enter our men's 2nds if I thought they where in a league they might stand a chance in. Also teams in the 2nd tier go to BUSA Shield (I think its called that but it might be Plate) which would make Shield a much better compertition as it currently only has three teams (the winners of the Scottish 2nd tier, and the South East has two 2nd tier leagues).

silvercross
-5th November 2007, 12:19
I think if the Edinburgh Ladies get knocked out of the permiership North they could still be in Scotish Div I with the Edinburgh ladies 2nd.

Shield could do with a little more competition, to be honest. No disrespect to those unis participatin in it, but it is limited by the number of 2nd division teams that can enter.

Bambi
-5th November 2007, 12:50
I thought what might happen is Edinburgh 1st would have to go into division 2 and then qualify for div 1, although could only move up if edinburgh 2 moved down.

Would be an interesting turn of events if that were the case!! :D

AussieMongrel
-5th November 2007, 14:54
If I wanted to talk to someone senior in the admin side of things who would it be? Wanting to see if I could do the individuals as I am an OU student.

Bambi
-5th November 2007, 15:07
From the BUSA website it looks like you need to talk to Caroline Chase as she is the sports programme manager fro fencing. Her email is caroline@busa.org.uk.

As far as im aware its only uni's that are affiliated with BUSA that can compete within the events. From their list of uni's the open uni is their but maybe thats because no one doing an OU course has wanted to do busa.

No harm in trying anyway and let us know the outcome, always something ive wondered myself.

pigeonmeister
-5th November 2007, 15:09
I don't think you can- but definitely check.

Bambi
-5th November 2007, 15:11
can't edit my last post for some reason!!

meant to say the open uni isn't listed on the site.

gbm
-11th November 2007, 18:35
One match is currently showing as a draw in the Western Women's Conference! (which is impossible and against the rules)

http://www.busa.org.uk/fl/tv.asp?teamid=10433

Red
-11th November 2007, 22:48
Sometimes they sort out draws on the day, sometimes it takes them months to sort it out....

IainW
-12th November 2007, 14:43
But you can't have a draw on the day?

If it's even on points, you go to weapons won.

If it's even on points and weapons, you go to sudden death, AFAIK.

Red
-12th November 2007, 14:53
There is no possible way to draw on weapons. Doubles at epée stop counting at 44-44 and the convention weapons cannot have a double.

The scores will be entered, the league will see a draw (there is no separate weapon score list) and will treat it as such until somebody from the BUSA office fiddles with it.

IainW
-12th November 2007, 14:56
"FEN 3.1 Matches will include Foil, Epee and Sabre. There cannot be a draw in a match. In the event of a tie on hits the winner shall be the team which has won more weapons. The winning team shall be awarded three points with the losing team receiving no points."

Is what the BUSA regs say, but they don't give guidance on what to do when a weapon each is won, and the third drawn, equal on points.

But it also refers to BF rules, and them to the FIE which gives us:

o.44
"9. If at the end of regulation time for the last bout the scores are
equal, the match continues for a deciding hit, with a maximum time
limit of one minute, fought for by the fencers of the last bout in the
match. Before the fencing recommences the Referee draws lots to
decide who will be the winner if scores are still equal at the end of the
extra minute."

So yes, GBM was correct, there can be no draw. (and Red, you could time out on equal scores).

Red
-12th November 2007, 15:30
"FEN 3.1 Matches will include Foil, Epee and Sabre. There cannot be a draw in a match. In the event of a tie on hits the winner shall be the team which has won more weapons. The winning team shall be awarded three points with the losing team receiving no points."

Is what the BUSA regs say, but they don't give guidance on what to do when a weapon each is won, and the third drawn, equal on points.

But it also refers to BF rules, and them to the FIE which gives us:

o.44
"9. If at the end of regulation time for the last bout the scores are
equal, the match continues for a deciding hit, with a maximum time
limit of one minute, fought for by the fencers of the last bout in the
match. Before the fencing recommences the Referee draws lots to
decide who will be the winner if scores are still equal at the end of the
extra minute."

So yes, GBM was correct, there can be no draw. (and Red, you could time out on equal scores).

Yes... but the almighty 'Rules for Competition' handle the event of a weapon going to time - that is nothing unique to BUSA.

IainW
-12th November 2007, 15:37
Yes, I get that. I think we've slightly crossed wires - I was just posting the relevant rules for any interested parties.

So what's happened is that:

The teams didn't know the rules, so recorded a draw. (this is not meant as a slight on either team, I was unfamiliar with the sudden-death rules till fairly recently, it's an unusual situation to be in)

OR

They knew the rules, it went to sudden death on the last bout and no hit was scored, therefore the match was won by coin-toss and BUSA recorded it as a draw to be updated later.

Anyone know which? (this is just idle curiosity on my part, I'm not involved in that particular league)

Red
-12th November 2007, 16:04
The poor, overworked sports sec entered the sum of the 3 matches, as they do. They told BUSA which side won two weapons and BUSA haven't got around to fixing it.
The problem arises as the results upload end is generic and doesn't have the option of a 'if scores are tied, enter winning team here' button. But the system generally works, so nobody is in any rush to fix it.

wapurvis
-12th November 2007, 17:00
Sorry to spoil the discussion but in this case it is pretty simple. Plymouth won on number of weapons (foil and epee). As mentioned before, the results system just doesnt recognise this so its down to BUSA to separate the teams themselves.

Nick_C
-12th November 2007, 18:00
Sorry to spoil the discussion but in this case it is pretty simple. Plymouth won on number of weapons (foil and epee). As mentioned before, the results system just doesnt recognise this so its down to BUSA to separate the teams themselves.

Agreed. Pleased to say that I asked BUSA to add the "if the teams are tied blah blah blah" rule a few years ago, because it is possible to get draws in foil and sabre (or be 45-44 and 44-45) and epee go to time. The rules used to say "It is not possible to get a draw in a fencing match", does this make me famous? lol

pinkelephant
-12th November 2007, 18:20
Agreed. Pleased to say that I asked BUSA to add the "if the teams are tied blah blah blah" rule a few years ago, because it is possible to get draws in foil and sabre (or be 45-44 and 44-45) and epee go to time. The rules used to say "It is not possible to get a draw in a fencing match", does this make me famous? lol

It is NOT possible to get a draw at foil or sabre, any more than it is at epee. The SCORES might be the same, but one team is going to win on priority. However, it isn't going to happen at sabre, which is never going to go to time (but foil is even more likely to do so than epee these days). A draw is only possible in an overall fixture containing more than one weapon, as in BUSA - which is why this rule is necessary.

Nick_C
-12th November 2007, 18:29
For the record, I know of three sabre 45-point relay matches go to time. One I have seen myself in busa, one my friend fenced in busa, and one was reported in The Sword (WS Nationals Teams about 2 years ago).

pinkelephant
-12th November 2007, 19:26
For the record, I know of three sabre 45-point relay matches go to time. One I have seen myself in busa, one my friend fenced in busa, and one was reported in The Sword (WS Nationals Teams about 2 years ago).

Was there a lot of catching up from one side or the other? (e.g. taking over a bout with a 20 hit deficit and pulling it back?)

Nick_C
-12th November 2007, 19:51
Precisely - They've all been WS matches, and in the case I saw, from the word "Play!" followed a lot of just standing about (fairly unusual for sabre lol), and then people shouting "just hit her!!!" and ... eventually "Together!" heh heh.

The nationals one i think was LBW for Shakespeares Swords starting off 40-8 down or something and clawing it back to 43-40 and losing on time haha. poor girl! Must have been knackered!!

pqg
-13th November 2007, 00:25
Agreed. Pleased to say that I asked BUSA to add the "if the teams are tied blah blah blah" rule a few years ago, because it is possible to get draws in foil and sabre (or be 45-44 and 44-45) and epee go to time. The rules used to say "It is not possible to get a draw in a fencing match", does this make me famous? lol
You weren't the first or only one to do so, but I'm not terribly surprised that it took several tellings before the rulebook got changed:

When the Scottish leagues were first introduced by BUSA (2002 - before that the best 2 Scottish unis qualified for the BUSA L16 on a points system from the SASF Teams results), I pointed out to them that it was entirely possible for the total of hits to be equal over the weapons and there was no provision for what should happen (note there was never any question of draws in individual weapons - if it's level at time the extra minute should be applied just as in an individual bout) Since the fencing coordinator at the time didn't seem to understand the way the scoring worked, or what exactly the problem was, I gave her the choice of what seemed to me to be the 3 fairest options:

(1) Allow draws to happen (1 point each in the league)
(2) Fight a deciding hit at the final weapon (with coin toss - standard extra minute procedure)
(3) Award the win to the team that won 2 of 3 weapons. (At the time, not an option for women, since they fought foil and epee only)

We decided that (2) was unfair since matches might effectively be decided by the (arbitrary) order of weapons. We opted for (3) for men and (1) for women, with the understanding that they would move to the same system as the men once WS was introduced (think it came in just a year later)
They agreed to add this to their rules, but I can't vouch for how clear the wording was - despite some long explanations over the phone I'm still not sure they ever completely understood the issue...

mozzar
-17th November 2007, 17:23
There's a draw in the men's Western comference too. But from speaking to guys at Swansea last week, it appears they did actually draw completely. With no priority played at the end. Maybe either the Swansea or Plymouth guys can set me straight.

How long does it take for BUSA to change an incorrect result? It's got the Aber Men's 1st and Swansea result the wrong way round. And i think the result between our Womens and Southamptons teams are slightly wrong too (only by a few points though).

fencingmum
-29th November 2007, 08:13
That's the way to go, Edinburgh girls A team - undefeated this term! Well done!

pinkelephant
-12th December 2007, 19:52
Congratulations to the boys from Northumbria - undefeated in any weapon.:not_worth

PM1
-12th December 2007, 21:38
Absolutely !! Good wins each time :not_worth :not_worth :not_worth

aber ollie
-13th December 2007, 16:53
Congrats to Aberystwyth Mens 1st team who have officially won the western conference. We actually won 2 weeks ago but were waiting for a result to be changed on the website. Roll on promotion playoffs and good luck to everyone finishing their league matches in the new year. Have any other unis managed to win their respective leagues yet?

pinkelephant
-13th December 2007, 19:50
Northumbria.

MatFink
-13th December 2007, 22:31
P W D L F A Diff Pts
1 Northumbria University Women's 1st 8 8 0 0 1072 782 290 21*
2 Leeds University Women's 1st 8 5 1 2 1010 810 200 15
3 University of York Women's 1st 7 3 0 4 769 751 18 9
4 University of Sheffield Women's 1st 7 2 0 5 791 842 -51 6
5 University of Durham Women's 2nd 7 2 1 4 740 850 -110 6
6 University of Sunderland Women's 1st 7 1 0 6 544 891 -347 3

Playing today/results awaited: 2

hayleyjade
-14th December 2007, 13:29
woop woop!!!

go Leeds Girlies!!! :D


hxx