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Andy W.
-21st October 2003, 21:51
Well, I have decided to transform myself from an armchair critic and taxi driver for my foilist daughter into a 'beginner' fencer.

So with my first session booked for the end of the month, which bit of kit should I consider buying (as opposed to borrowing from the club) first. -- Assuming I don't bottle out after the first 60 minutes!

Thought that something small and personal (but not that personal) might be good idea. I know how yuk my duaghter's glove gets so rather than push my precious silken mit into a sweaty old glove from the back of the kit cupboard was thinking of splashing out 18 quid on a new one. The Club says turn up with a 'glove' of anytype that is suitable but I guess they don't mean ski mittens and the stae of my daughter's hand after some matches makes ne think protective padding on the back is very improtant.

Or maybe safety first and a plastron?

Come to think of it, is box a better idea for us male fencers? Given that beginners are probably less skilled at hitting the target area and an 'off target' hit on that part of the anatomy......... :transport

PS read something on the French Forum (I am not being flash it was in English already) about research from the Sates on the transmission of some horrid microbe on fencing equipment, masks were particularly mentioned.........:eek:

PM1
-21st October 2003, 22:37
don't want to know about microbes, THANK you very much - but there is another thread on what to buy first, and the gist seems to have been plastron and glove, unless I was very much mistaken, followed by mask (so far as I'm concerned, anyway).

And good luck !!:grin: :grin:

reposte
-21st October 2003, 23:04
I may be black carded for safety, but usually plastrons are for comps, and the last on a beginner's to - do list.
You won't need a plastron until you fence with heavy weight (and I mean level not kilo's) fencers who can lunge straight into your heart.
You might want to consider fencing for at least 3 months on club gear before you decide what's what, by which time you'll
have probably developed a good sense of your own priorities...

For me it was Mask-glove-jacket-shoes for the first buy.
All the rest came later.

Rdb811
-21st October 2003, 23:17
You need the plaston first for insurance purposes.

Along with a glove. Most clubs don't supply these for beginners (too losable/ manky to supply). Then mask/jacket, depending on which of your club's are most disgusting. Then weapon, then bodywire, then lame. Then breeches plus sockets.

Some coaches may say get a weapon early on to practise with, but it takes time to learn what to look for - and you an merrily break the club kit and practise in font of the miror with a knife sharpner or your daughter's foil.

We've had this thread before, but i can taype quicker than searching.

Exgeordielass
-22nd October 2003, 08:48
PS read something on the French Forum (I am not being flash it was in English already) about research from the Sates on the transmission of some horrid microbe on fencing equipment, masks were particularly mentioned.........

There has been a lot of correspondence on the recsport.fencing newsgroup about some sort of virus/bug that gives you boils which can be transmitted by wearing fencing kit next your skin. They had been sharing body wires. How much this is just rumourmongering I don't know.

Club kit tends to get washed only occasionally and shared at our Club at least once an evening. The Juniors for some reason always choosing the largest jacket they can find.

Leon Paul's gloves can be washed in the machine, so tend to be much 'nicer' than our leather gloves which I don't think have been more than 'aired' in the whole of their life.

Having just finished a beginners course myself, I'm going for glove, mask, jacket then plastron, then sword, socks and breeches.

I don't know of any club that hires out breeches (obligatory for fencing electric from 2006).
:upset:

Gav
-22nd October 2003, 09:02
The infection is a resistant staph strain that can be transmitted (like all skin infections) by touch and a lack of cleanliness. The particular infection that was referred to [it's from a CNN article] is quite common in any case.

So the short answer is that you should practise good cleanliness and hygeine and you will not have any problems.

Lastly - it's a bacterial infection and has nothing to do with virii.

srb
-22nd October 2003, 09:47
Originally posted by Gav
resistant staph strain

Gav is probably talking about Staphylococcus. It is a spherical bacterium (coccus) that occur in microscopic clusters.

There are two main types that the article could be talking about (I haven't seen the article):

Staphylococcus epidermis - which is a normal resident on human skin, and

Staphylococcus aureus - which colonises the nasal passages.

I reckon an American fencing microbiology PhD student was stuck for a project. I wouldn't worry about this too much. There will always be a risk of cross contamination. Key sites will be cuts grazes, boils etc. However, somewhere along the line you have to use your own common sense. From a comfort point of view I would start with a glove, a pair of trainers, and then a foil.

srb
BSc (Hons) MSc MIBiol CBiol MCIWEM)

(I knew it might come in handy someday!)

Gav
-22nd October 2003, 10:01
cheers srb. I wasn't going to go into that level of detail...

PM1
-22nd October 2003, 19:53
aha ! SRB - someone else who has more letters in their qualifications than in their name : my old man has lots of letts (not me), and we have a double barrelled name. And hope fully no staph.

Still reckon a plastron is a must..............:grin:

Australian
-23rd October 2003, 01:08
yeah it has to be a must.....

Exgeordielass
-23rd October 2003, 07:42
true but if your Club provides them and has suitable FIE standard plastrons that they are willing to lend out - it doesn't have to be the first item bought. :cool:

rpryer
-23rd October 2003, 07:57
Come to think of it, is box a better idea for us male fencers? Given that beginners are probably less skilled at hitting the target area and an 'off target' hit on that part of the anatomy.........

That part of the anatomy is only off target in sabre - perfectly valid in foil and epee. There is a long thread somewhere on pros and cons of using a box.

My preference for kit would be glove, mask, jacket.

Conincidentally I'm planning to put an article into our next club newsletter about buting kit - what with Christmas approaching and all.

tigger
-23rd October 2003, 08:14
true but if your Club provides them and has suitable FIE standard plastrons

We have loads of 350n and a few 800 n plastrons at our club, but very limited gloves as they always go missing. We end up with a whole bunch of left-handed ones left over....

Always buy a glove first, and I would say a mask 2nd. Then upper-body clothing. But if you're trying to keep a kid interested then glove, mask, weapon is probably more practical!

PM1
-23rd October 2003, 20:12
working on the principle that you can snaffle a plastron to wear from your club, then I'd say yes to glove (get a washable one - leather does, but it takes time to dry), and weapon (to get used to weight, handle, balance etc). Masks get v smelly, so buy one next. Most clubs don't have breeches, so if you're competing, that's what you have to get. A jacket later, if you've snaflled a good one from club to fit.

When Rich started wanting his own kit, it was glove first. Then as Easter loomed (started fencing in the January), he got a chocolate egg weapon from Gran, and half a chocolate mask from his uncle (we bought the rest).

Tip for clothing - DON'T tumble dry it - it shrinks. ALWAYS fasten velcro - it pills even non pill fabric. That's my experience, anyway.....;) ;)

jamesthornton
-23rd October 2003, 21:36
i would have to say glove, mask and your own weopon as it does get personal to how you have it set up. also if your worried about your hand geting mangled you could try the new leon paul glove with reinforced protection on the outside.

Muso440
-24th October 2003, 08:39
Originally posted by PM1

Tip for clothing - DON'T tumble dry it - it shrinks. ALWAYS fasten velcro - it pills even non pill fabric. That's my experience, anyway.....;) ;)

While we're on a girly washing tips thing, how conscientious should one be about putting things on the right washing temperature? I've just a jacket and the label says 40, so would anything disastrous (like shrinking) happen if I chucked it in at 60?
Anyone ever tried?

pinkelephant
-24th October 2003, 12:47
I've found the only thing that shrinks if you wash it according to the instructions is the plastron - and only the outer shell of that. I don't tumble dry plastrons, but jacket & breeches are fine on cool. 60 degrees NOT a good idea - 40 on a very gentle cycle.

randomsabreur
-24th October 2003, 16:33
I tend to put all my kit in at 35 as my plastron is at the point where I will have to dispose of it if it shrinks any more (too much constriction of upper arm muscles.

I have never tumble dried my kit, don't trust the machines, and it costs too much to experiment on. If you hang it up properly, it should not take too much time to dry however, overnight is usually just about enough.

Washable gloves aren't good though, they have this tendency to get smellier even quicker after washing and they are not particularly comfortable either (after washing)

I would definitely buy a glove first and then probably a mask. Then, if you are competing, go for breeches and socks, which clubs tend not to have, then a plastron. Sword can either come in after mask if all the club ones are horrible for training with, or you can never get one, or at the end if you can't quite decide what weapon you want to do.

If you're not competing, get weapon before breeches and socks.

PM1
-24th October 2003, 19:38
Can't say I remember reading any washing/drying instructions on any of the kit - and I usually look carefully. Can't check now as they are in the process of being used.

Hanging up overnight does seem to do the trick most times. ;) ;)

Rdb811
-25th October 2003, 00:29
My cotton plastron has definately shrunk over the years - but I only ever washed it at 40 and the (poxy) tumbled dried for 20 mins.

stevejackson
-25th October 2003, 07:45
In all the notes about laundry of kit no one seems to have mentioned about the care required for the 800 Newton Kevlar reinforced stuff. I remember being told (when I purchased this) that it needed special washing. Apparently it has vampire tendedencies and must be kept out of direct sunlight, must be washed with special ( no Bleach) detergents, and must not be tumble dried. Don't ask me to justfy this.

Perhaps one of the manufacturers/suppliers can repeat the advice. (maybe even a brand of detergent? finding none bleach containing products in tesco is interesting and the assistants !!)

Andy W.
-25th October 2003, 08:18
All this talk about 800 N plastrons and washing them, means I am going a bit off subject but I found a mention of 800 N plastrons 'hidden away' in the small print for next year BYCs. It said "U18 are reminded of the new regulations that an 800 newton plastron must be worn". It was the first I knew of 'new regulations' and assume its going to cost us money again.

I don't have a plastron yet as everyone will have gathered, but my daughter has two (which seem to wash fine incidentally, apart from the velco straps/tabs going like piggy tails). I can't find any marking on them to say whether they are 350N or 800N or zero newtons. Would I be right in assuming that even though they are only two years old (or less) they are probably 350N and therefore illegal?

Anyone know the reason for the sudden change?! As like so much in this sport it is a well kept secret from us fencers at the bottom of the ladder. I'd like to think that there is a need for the change but part of me cynically suspects a money making opportunity for equipment suppliers, a bit like the scam that happened in junior rugby a few years back with mouth guards and head guards.

I emailed the BFA some months back seeking some clarification about it but <as all to usual> I haven't had reply (yet). :rolleyes:

I shall ask for a glove for my impending birthday (present), whether I'll get one is a different question! If I win the lottery I shall follow the rest of the advice! Taking special care to get an 800N non shrink plastron with the washing instructions in!

Has anyone tried wool wash?

:) :) :)

Exgeordielass
-25th October 2003, 09:18
Our FIE kit gets washed in a wool wash with non bleach powder and hung up to dry but I thought I would look up the instructions on my son's FIE 800N jacket (Leon Paul's).

Found a site from Google which explains the symbols.

http://www.waschsymbole.de/en/index.html

The signs on my son's jacket say:

40 deg C machine washable - delicates
Tumble dry on low heat
Iron (IRON??) using low temp setting - mental image of being asked to iron the club kit:o

Do not dry clean - DO NOT USE BLEACH.

tigger
-25th October 2003, 10:51
Can't say I remember reading any washing/drying instructions on any of the kit -

Most kit does have instructions! I would suggest that if it says 40 and you wash it on 60 and it shrinks then your chances of redress are fairly slim!!

The only kit I've ever shrunk is a duellist fie jacket. 2 of them. In quick succession! Hey, it's only money...

The 800n plastron rule was actually heralded a while back in the ssword - not a well kept secret really! From memory I think it's supposed to be for all electric fencing, although how that will be enforced at a club level I'm not sure.

PM1
-25th October 2003, 11:34
Just a thought, but putting significant info in The Sword is only any good if everyone receives that particular issue: Musketeers only get one copy a year, and some of us don't seem to get ANY, even tho' entitled to every copy published each year - will groan in the right direction again soon, I fear. Is the new one out yet??

I don't think all clubs have been very pro active in making info about change of clothing regs clear to members. January 2004/6 is coming soon. Children/young peeps will often either grow out of kit or it will have shrunk before the regs come into force .

Who is going to enforce, by the way?? And sanctions?? Suspect unannounced drop ins to clubs will not take place, but that the issue will be taken up at comps, like weapon control.

Witter over:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ps - will look at boy's kit and see what if any washing instructions there are and report back......

PM1
-25th October 2003, 11:38
Andy - take it that no marking as to how many Newtons the item of clothing is ranked at means - no Newtons. Probably got good cotton plastrons - it's what we started on, too, and still use for club etc.

PM1
-25th October 2003, 11:42
FIE regs - go onto BFA site, into Technical Rules and Regulations, and it's all there, under Clothing Regualtions. ;)

Exgeordielass
-25th October 2003, 11:57
Most kit does have instructions! I would suggest that if it says 40

Some of our Club kit USED to have instructions but these have since washed away (not Leon Paul's). As a Club we await anxiously to know if our non-marked CEN1 kit but 350N can be used after 2006 or not, we understand not, even at Club level. I've just looked at those regs again and I'm not sure.

As a Club Official, insurance claims would be our main worry. Hopefully more information will appear in the Sword or on the BFA site soon, I must confess not to have checked properly recently.

We have bought a lot of CEN complaint kit over the last two years but we will have a kit crisis in 2006, especially if members have to wear breeches and socks to fence electric at the Club which is clearly indicated by the rules as presented on the BFA site. What are other Club's intending to do about this?

Sorry, Andy, wandering well away from your original question here.



:)

Exgeordielass
-25th October 2003, 12:05
Tried to add a little to my above post but ran over the 5 minute time out.

Quoting the BFA rules from their web site (edited slightly so it will scan better across the page)

C) All other fencing, all weapons
Jackets Plastrons Breeches Masks
CEN1 CEN2 CEN1 CEN1
350 N 800 N 350 Newtons (350N. bib)#

Exgeordielass
-25th October 2003, 12:13
Tried to add a little to my above post but ran over the 5 minute time out.

Quoting the BFA rules from their web site (edited slightly so it will scan better across the page but won't go into table form so sorry if it doesn't read very well, please read down rather than across)

C) All other fencing, all weapons
Jackets Plastrons Breeches Masks
CEN1 CEN2 CEN1 CEN1
350 N 800 N 350 N (350N. bib)#

Fencers using size 3 blades are exempt from this but as we understand it, this covers electric fencing at Club level as well as at competitions. That means all fencers using size 5 blades must wear breeches and masks to fence electric at Club level. The easiest way round this seems to be for all fencers not wearing breeches to be restricted to using size 3 blades for electric but that is going to be a nightmare to administer. The Club is not going to be able to afford to invest in breeches and socks to lend.

So Andy, back to your original question, I would put breeches and socks above plastrons (we have CEN2 plastrons at the Club).

Exgeordielass
-25th October 2003, 12:14
Originally posted by Exgeordielass
Tried to add a little to my above post but ran over the 5 minute time out.

Quoting the BFA rules from their web site (edited slightly so it will scan better across the page)

C) All other fencing, all weapons
Jackets Plastrons Breeches Masks
CEN1 CEN2 CEN1 CEN1
350 N 800 N 350 Newtons (350N. bib)#

Sorry, not sure why that came out twice, must have hit the wrong button :o

Muso440
-25th October 2003, 13:25
Originally posted by Andy W.

Anyone know the reason for the sudden change?! As like so much in this sport it is a well kept secret from us fencers at the bottom of the ladder. I'd like to think that there is a need for the change but part of me cynically suspects a money making opportunity for equipment suppliers, a bit like the scam that happened in junior rugby a few years back with mouth guards and head guards.


Inclined to agree with you. It seems to be a good way of keeping the sport small / expensive therefore perceived as 'elitist'. The more expensive kit clubs need to buy, the more they'll have to charge in club membership, so the more people will be put off joining, etc etc etc. As I'm not exactly rolling in money myself, it makes me rather sad - and there are plenty of people in worse off positions financially than me. I'm all for safety but sometimes it seems a teensy bit excessive. I mean, making *beginners* wear breeches when they fence electric? Come on.... Or are we saying that beginners should only be allowed to fence steam? I've fenced electric since I started, and now find steam fencing extremely boring. I think if I'd not been allowed to fence electric I might have given up by now.

Personally, I have every intention of ignoring all such rules until someone forces me to take notice of them.

rant over (for now)

Gav
-25th October 2003, 14:11
Unlike the 'welding mask' debate. I believe that the issue surrounding clothing reg's is mor about safety than a cynical attempt to leverage yet more money out fo the average fencers pocket. If the conspisacy was true then we would be asked to buy strange or exotic fabrics that are very expensive (a la startex). An 800N plastron isn't expensive. I got mine from LP and the price was quite reasonable. For 800N jacket and breeches, that [last time I asked anyway] is only really necessary if you are going to be fencing abroad at A grades and the like. However if you are doing Epee I would recommend investing in a set - I find I get less bruises!

The idea that Fencing is expensive due to equipment costs is a fallacy and doesn't stand up to heavy scrutiny. It is actually somewhere in the middle, not as cheap as running certainly but compare fencing with ice hockey ...

Muso440
-25th October 2003, 14:15
Originally posted by Gav

The idea that Fencing is expensive due to equipment costs is a fallacy and doesn't stand up to heavy scrutiny

Isn't it always going to be relative, depending on your income / necessary outgoings (ie. cost of living in difference parts of the country) etc?

It might not be as expensive as other sports, but it might be expensive for any one person's disposable income.

Gav
-25th October 2003, 15:59
Yes Muso that's true up to a point. Your reply also doesn't invaidate my comment.

When I was a student, and I wasn't very wealthy, I could still afford kit. It's not the equipment that's expensive apart except in the short term. Over the long term it works out good value for money. How often do people need to replace: jackets, masks, breeches or socks? Not often - or at least it shouldn't need to be. It's actually travel and and accomodation for tournaments that I find expensive [by far].

If you are only going to be fencing socially with your mates at your local salle then why would you need to buy expensive kit? Just by the minimum and have a good time. Remember the clothing reg's apply to competition.

BTW I apologise about my typing. I'm at home and I have a very dodgy keyboard. I just realised how rubbishly my previous post read.

Andy W.
-25th October 2003, 20:07
Gav,

Yes its true that adults probably wear out kit over a long time frame making it reasonably economical, but my daughter fences foil electric at competitons here and abroad and in three/four years we have replaced everything once and some things like blades more often than I care to remember. Gloves seem strangely vulnerable as well. We were lucky when she started in that the club was able to supply a few things - yet we were soon under pressure to buy her own electric jacket (which we've replaced twice) and breeches et al..... So needless costs will discourage parents from supporting their kids, and the kids are the future medal winners (well someone has to hope).
As for hockey we know a contempory of my daughter who is in the Engald squad for in lione and ice hockey and not so long ago we worked out the costs were much the same but that if one went to the US (wher alot of the comps are anyway) you could cover the cost of an air fare in the savings on hockey kit. I don't think you can do the same with fencing kit -although I'd be delighted to be told otherwise!

Makes my hoped for glove look like good value!

Tigger,

You must be one of the lucky people who actually get sent the sword on a regular basis!

:confused:

Muso440
-26th October 2003, 09:25
Originally posted by Gav

If you are only going to be fencing socially with your mates at your local salle then why would you need to buy expensive kit? Just by the minimum and have a good time. Remember the clothing reg's apply to competition.


But aren't we all going to have to have breeches even to fence in our clubs in a few years' time? That's how I'd understood it anyway. That's just an extra 40-odd quid that just seems a bit of a waste of money to me, and that I'd rather spend elsewhere. If push came to shove, and it was a choice between getting the kit and not fencing any more, then I'd get the kit. But I can easily see how it would put other people off (especially parents with still-growing kids).

Gav
-26th October 2003, 10:38
Andy W: I understand where you are coming from but it is a moot point that it is going to cost you - because she is growing up. Why not sell of the 2nd hand kit to other parents? There is a thriving trade in 2nd hand kit being past down between families at my club. Once a youg fencer outgrows their kit then it is passed on to another family [assuming it is still in good condition]. As far as I am aware there are now a couple of sets of FIE kit for kiddies circuilating round the club. Isn't there something similair operating in your area?

Muso: I've never heard this however it makes good sense to wear breeches if you are doing Epee. If you are fencing without breeches and doing Epee then basically you are not being very sensible. The risks get progressively less from Foil to Sabre.

Muso440
-26th October 2003, 11:26
Originally posted by Gav
Muso: I've never heard this

I'd picked it up from Exgeordielass I few posts back:



We have bought a lot of CEN complaint kit over the last two years but we will have a kit crisis in 2006, especially if members have to wear breeches and socks to fence electric at the Club which is clearly indicated by the rules as presented on the BFA site.

And by mentions in other postings in the last few months as well. Looking at the BFA site it does seem to be saying that (although not particularly clearly phrased, I have to say)



however it makes good sense to wear breeches if you are doing Epee. If you are fencing without breeches and doing Epee then basically you are not being very sensible. The risks get progressively less from Foil to Sabre.

I'm a foilist - I can see why it might be a good idea for an epeeist.

Exgeordielass
-26th October 2003, 13:03
CEN complaint kit

please read that as compliant! :o

Andy W.
-26th October 2003, 19:13
Gav, I think i understand your point that it would cost me anyway as she is growing, but my thought was that the higher the spec the higher the cost generally. Having to replace 2 perfectly servicable plastrons with the 800N variety before they need to be replaced is a bit urksome.

As for selling on used kit, yes we do when it is still in fair condition, but as the rules change then our 'old' kit will be valueless anyway as people will (quite rightly) only want the CEN compliant stuff.

If the change is safety driven, why only in 2003 has it become an issue? U18 fencing has presumably been going on for years. I think I detect the rank odure of 'Health and Safety'.

Rdb811
-26th October 2003, 20:36
And insurnace. Fortunately the requiremnets were deferred to 2006.

rpryer
-27th October 2003, 06:40
PM1 asked:


Who is going to enforce, by the way?? And sanctions?? Suspect unannounced drop ins to clubs will not take place, but that the issue will be taken up at comps, like weapon control.

I suspect that you're right about there not going to be unannounced visits to clubs to check that the rules are being followed. The problem will come when there is an accident at your club and someone tries to claim on the insurance.

For instance, BFA-registered coaches should be aware of the rules (since they get the Sword as BFA members) and may find it difficult to defend themselves if a pupil gets injured in a lesson because their kit wasn't up to scratch.

At comps, some referees already check for plastrons (as required under the current guidelines), and I presume this will be extended to checking the spec of kit.

Muso440
-27th October 2003, 08:11
Originally posted by rpryer

I suspect that you're right about there not going to be unannounced visits to clubs to check that the rules are being followed. The problem will come when there is an accident at your club and someone tries to claim on the insurance.

For instance, BFA-registered coaches should be aware of the rules (since they get the Sword as BFA members) and may find it difficult to defend themselves if a pupil gets injured in a lesson because their kit wasn't up to scratch.


Couldn't the people making the insurance claims (ie. the coaches and club officials, presumably) just lie? And say injured kiddie was wearing an X when she wasn't?

Who's going to know?

stevejackson
-27th October 2003, 20:05
Originally posted by Andy W.
All this talk about 800 N plastrons and washing them, means I am going a bit off subject but I found a mention of 800 N plastrons 'hidden away' in the small print for next year BYCs. It said "U18 are reminded of the new regulations that an 800 newton plastron must be worn". It was the first I knew of 'new regulations' and assume its going to cost us money again.
:) :) :)

Sorry that you've only just discovered this change but it's been published for at least 2 years, the start of the BFA web site entry says "The Board believe that ultimately the BFA safety standards should reflect the new CEN regulations, adjusted to the needs of particular standards of fencing. However, the safety record of the BFA does not warrant an immediate introduction and justifies a lead-in time of 5 years (January 2006)." Working back from the implementation date implies a decision some time during 2000


Originally posted by Andy W.
I don't have a plastron yet as everyone will have gathered, but my daughter has two (which seem to wash fine incidentally, apart from the velco straps/tabs going like piggy tails). I can't find any marking on them to say whether they are 350N or 800N or zero newtons. Would I be right in assuming that even though they are only two years old (or less) they are probably 350N and therefore illegal?
:) :) :) [/B]

If these are less than 2 years old they should carry a CEN mark and a number CEN 1 =350 Newton Cen 3 = 800 Newton. Hope this helps.


Originally posted by Andy W.
Anyone know the reason for the sudden change?! As like so much in this sport it is a well kept secret from us fencers at the bottom of the ladder. I'd like to think that there is a need for the change but part of me cynically suspects a money making opportunity for equipment suppliers, a bit like the scam that happened in junior rugby a few years back with mouth guards and head guards.

:) :) :) [/B]

We can argue about the use of the word sudden, however I believe the background is that the European Union decided to impose standards on industrial protective clothing and in doing so picked up sports kit as well. If my memory is correct there was a considerable and very heated debate because the initial ruling was that it would be applied imeadiately (ie from 2001) and all kit would bave to be to the CEN 3 standard.

One final point what makes Foil and Sabre so much safer than epee that you don't need breeches? A broken blade from any weapon going through your thigh will ruin your day ( maybe even kill you.) Is this any less likely at Foil and sabre and if you think so please tell me why?

Crouching Tiger
-28th October 2003, 08:09
One final point what makes Foil and Sabre so much safer than epee that you don't need breeches? A broken blade from any weapon going through your thigh will ruin your day ( maybe even kill you.) Is this any less likely at Foil and sabre and if you think so please tell me why?

A very good point.

Some might argue that because of the target areas of sabre/foil your blade shouldn't hit the leg but my argument would be what if you slipped and lost control, your blade breaks etc and you end up with your blade in someones thigh?

Accidents can (and i'm sure DO) happen

Muso440
-28th October 2003, 08:24
Originally posted by stevejackson

One final point what makes Foil and Sabre so much safer than epee that you don't need breeches? A broken blade from any weapon going through your thigh will ruin your day ( maybe even kill you.) Is this any less likely at Foil and sabre and if you think so please tell me why?

Point taken, but it just seems to be a little excessive to make *beginners* wear breeches. In my experience beginners tend to just wave their blade around fairly timidly. The chances of it breaking and stabbing someones leg would seem fairly remote, I would have thought. I'm prepared to be corrected if anyone has ever seen a beginner stabbing someone.

Exgeordielass
-28th October 2003, 08:45
But beginners may very well fence better fencers, who can hit hard and the beginner doesn't have the skill to parry. I'm still nursing my first bruise received from fencing one of our keen novices.:( (I've been fencing all of 6 weeks, despite being a fencing 'Mum' for more years than I can to mention!

As I understand it, beginners can still fence electric without breeches, as long as BOTH fencers are using size 3 blades.

Personally, I'm putting breeches way up on my own 'to buy' list. I'd say socks too, but our household seems to have several spare pairs of those.

:rambo:

Crouching Tiger
-28th October 2003, 09:24
In my experience beginners tend to just wave their blade around fairly timidly.

hmm you've never fenced me then! :)
i tend to be a bit enthusiastic in free play

Winwaloe
-29th October 2003, 16:24
A mask everytime. Your own mask will fit, be comfortable and as clean as you decide it will be. After the mask a glove and then jacket. Somewhere in between gey a plastron and your own weapons. Don't forget ebay for used equip but watch the price. Some people are paying more for used equip than the cost of new!!

Gav
-30th October 2003, 07:47
Can I just clarify something.

Although I said that :


however it makes good sense to wear breeches if you are doing Epee. If you are fencing without breeches and doing Epee then basically you are not being very sensible. The risks get progressively less from Foil to Sabre

I always wore breeches at Foil - once I had purchased them. And yes because of the target area's I would say that the risks of accidents [to the legs] are progressively less, than that of Epee, for Foil and Sabre. At the same time I would still recommend that Foilists and Sabreurs wear their breeches. I just don't think that it's necessary for them to buy breeches at day one. Additionally the risks in Fencing are no more than that of other sports.

To finish with here's an anecdote.

As I type this I have a lovely foot long scratch running from just below my ribs to the top of my left thigh [where it culminates in a nasty graze and bruise]. I was wearing breeches so how did I get this? Well I was fencing a very tall person who came crashing in my sixte line. Because of his height and the depth of his attack I elected for a prime [which exposed my flank]. He improvised by trying to nail me to the ground. His Epee slipped between my jacket and the tops of my breeches and slid all the way into the leg of my breeches. I guess I was lucky that in the fracas [great word that] that his blade didn't get snapped...

natsgrant
-30th October 2003, 10:56
Nice one Gav. :( At least it's an injury to show to the ladies.

As a beginner I found breeches a bargain because my parry octave always managed to bring my opponent's point onto my leg. Also guys always manage a flick or two to the behind. Hm. Not that I show my fencing 'scars' :o

My first purchase was a glove, then the mask and then a jacket. Was it the right way to do it, I have no idea. But it suited me. To be honest, not inhaling the sweat of X others made it all a bit more enjoyable.

srb
-30th October 2003, 11:07
This morning after seeing a long bruise on my btm, my wife asked whether I went fencing at all or just to S & M classes. It went even further downhill when I explained that Boo Boo had whipped me!

srb

Boo Boo
-30th October 2003, 11:31
Originally posted by srb
This morning after seeing a long bruise on my btm, my wife asked whether I went fencing at all or just to S & M classes. It went even further downhill when I explained that Boo Boo had whipped me!

srb

Hmmmm, maybe there could be a business idea in this - I could charge for the whipping... :)

Still, was only just - I have a 5" stripe on my right thigh from fencing srb on Tuesday night (somebody else punched me in the arm, but that hasn't appeared to have bruised yet...)

Boo
(proprieter of "Boo Boo's S&M dungeon"....)

Andy W.
-30th October 2003, 18:06
Forget the glove I'll settle for a tank, all your war stories of wounds dishonourably obtained has quite put me off!

Boo, I thought the whole point was to score with the point of one's blade so when did punching come into it (or do I not want to know given your fresh new reputation as a disciplinarian?

:)

randomsabreur
-31st October 2003, 11:30
Breeches do not really stop bruises at sabre except the old LP ones with the yellow kevlar! Strect breeches are no more protective from bruises than woollen trackies.

The reason for breaches is to stop penetration by a broken blade, and possibly scratches from a tip, not bruises.

Also, socks always fall down when you need them most. I now own loads of pairs of fencing socks, and they all fall down when I lunge. I got a scratch on my legs when fencing sabre because I lunged, my sock fell down at the same time that my opponent missed low and got me on the leg. Why did I bother pulling them up in the first place!

Boo Boo
-31st October 2003, 11:44
Originally posted by Andy W.
Boo, I thought the whole point was to score with the point of one's blade so when did punching come into it (or do I not want to know given your fresh new reputation as a disciplinarian?


Yes you are right, but there are some novices around with little point control, whose reaction is to counter and get frustrated (i.e. punch it in after the ref has called halt). Fortunately it was a woman who punched me, otherwise would probably have been bruised or knocked over...

Boo
(living proof that you can get bruised/hurt during fencing, but then it - fencing, not being hurt - is much more fun than knitting...)

pinkelephant
-1st November 2003, 09:20
At the North West cadets last weekend my son was fencing sabre (I know, I know, he doesn't - he was having a day off from epee). His blade broke about 40 cm from the guard - very unusual. We're not sure whether it was the bit he was holding or the bit that went flying, but one of them sheared the opponents's breeches (350 N) and scratched the leg underneath. We were all VERY relieved he was wearing decent breeches. (I'm sending a report to the BFA).

uk_45
-1st November 2003, 19:31
Yeah but a broken sabre blade will cut about any thing you could wear, short of a suit of armour (hmm i might need one of them) in fact its amazing there are as few bad wounds from broken blades.

wrinkly sabreur
-8th November 2003, 14:17
I would always deter (kids especially because it's what they will plump for) anyone from buying themselves a nice shiny weapon first.

Gloves is definitely good. I supply them - and underplastrons - to beginners because of fear of nasty insurance men but they do get manky. Masks get cleaned out with an anti-bacterial kitchen cleaner (now and again) but are a fairly high priority for the same reason as well as comfort.

I would definitely recommend glove then clothing and have upped breeches in the pecking order because it is more difficult to supply those for people entering their first competitions [If a jacket is to big it matters little but breeches dropping round you ankles can be a bit embarrassing , so you can't buy just big sizes.]