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Thread: Guess the Wildcards

  1. #501
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    I'd like to see the minutes of the PAG and PMT selections meetings now please? And the statistics presented to the selectors in their original form. Anyone else?

    That statement pretty much adds no information as to why SW was selected ahead of JH and CN, other than they thought she had greater potential for the future.

    "Following a detailed and thorough discussion, the clear view of the Performance Team was that although three sabruers had broadly similar results over the qualifying period, Sophie Williams shows the greatest promise for the future, in particular for Rio 2016. "

    Quite aside from "broadly similar results" being demonstrably false, (unless you choose very specific criteria), "promise for 2016" is a giant waste of time, when the stated goal of the programme is to produce medals at 2012.

    The suggestion that the first senior season results was used for comparison is totally arbitrary. Using results from 2006/7 to justify exclusion is simply insane. If you have to move the goalposts to a very specific position to demonstrate the outcome you want, you might be being disingenuous, see my post in the stats thread for a slightly different filter on things.
    http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/sh...l=1#post264360
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  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokers View Post
    I'd like to see the minutes of the PAG and PMT selections meetings now please? And the statistics presented to the selectors in their original form. Anyone else?

    That statement pretty much adds no information as to why SW was selected ahead of JH and CN, other than they thought she had greater potential for the future.

    "Following a detailed and thorough discussion, the clear view of the Performance Team was that although three sabruers had broadly similar results over the qualifying period, Sophie Williams shows the greatest promise for the future, in particular for Rio 2016. "

    Quite aside from "broadly similar results" being demonstrably false, (unless you choose very specific criteria), "promise for 2016" is a giant waste of time, when the stated goal of the programme is to produce medals at 2012.

    The suggestion that the first senior season results was used for comparison is totally arbitrary. Using results from 2006/7 to justify exclusion is simply insane. If you have to move the goalposts to a very specific position to demonstrate the outcome you want, you might be being disingenuous, see my post in the stats thread for a slightly different filter on things.
    http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/sh...l=1#post264360
    Im sorry but who made the decision that Sw has more potential than JH or CN for 2016. If Jon left the room after presenting the evidence who on the PMT team made that decision and what is their experience in sabre?? Perhaps we could have an answer to that as well.

    DS
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  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSSabre View Post
    Its a very sad day when i am agreeing entirely with what ronald has said. Ronald lets not let that happen again


    DS
    DS beat me to this. Which means I am in agreement with both Ronald and David. Surely there is a line in the book of revelations about that happening.

    I really hope that JH and CN carry on for 2016. I am firmly of the opinion that they have only scratched the surface of what they are capable of. If anyone has medal potential for 2016 it is these two.

    Also I continue to be impressed by Jon Willis as a fencer and more importantly as a human being. Of the two statements releaser today his was the one I would want people outside our sport to read.

    Well done Jon. You do yourself and us credit.
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  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencer91 View Post
    A general improvement in results in a majority of weapons particuarly MF with the granted exception of the two you mentioned and even though she seems to have selectively ignored results
    I'd like to see the stats for that in every weapon besides form MF which was already doing pretty well. I'd also like someone to look at the results from the first 2 years of this quad at major championships and the last and see if there has been any noticeable improvement.

    To be honest i just don't agree with your post. I don't feel that there has been a general improvement in results. If there has it is down to the hard work of the coaches and athletes involved and not down to our PM

    DS
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  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Small and picky point (from me? how unusual), but in justifying non-selection, it would perhaps be politic at least to spell "sabreurs" correctly. This might give the impression that it's a word with which one is familiar.
    Sabreuses, even?
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  6. #506
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    I omitted one matter, which has not been discussed to date.

    Apart from Corinne Lawrence who made a last 16 in World Championships all other fencers selected are members of National Mens and Womens Squads or based at Truro, which based on British Fencing's statement
    about National Performance Centre based there suggests that if you were a fencer outside those programmes
    you had no chance of being selected for Olympics.

    For me that is the secret agenda.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    I omitted one matter, which has not been discussed to date.

    Apart from Corinne Lawrence who made a last 16 in World Championships all other fencers selected are members of National Mens and Womens Squads or based at Truro, which based on British Fencing's statement
    about National Performance Centre based there suggests that if you were a fencer outside those programmes
    you had no chance of being selected for Olympics.

    For me that is the secret agenda.
    Ronald think you meant all based at Truro not or based at Truro.

    DS
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  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    I omitted one matter, which has not been discussed to date.

    Apart from Corinne Lawrence who made a last 16 in World Championships all other fencers selected are members of National Mens and Womens Squads or based at Truro, which based on British Fencing's statement
    about National Performance Centre based there suggests that if you were a fencer outside those programmes
    you had no chance of being selected for Olympics.

    For me that is the secret agenda.
    Is it, really? Are you helping your case or that of the non-selected fencers by all these posts? Unless you have all the evidence to present to an authority that can do something about selections before the Olympics all you're doing is stirring things up. Collate it all and present it when it can actually achieve something positive. All I'm seeing is a lot of verbal acid being thrown about which will make it harder for you to present a coherent believable case for change at some later point.

  9. #509
    Senior Member Mr long sword is a splendid one to beholdMr long sword is a splendid one to beholdMr long sword is a splendid one to beholdMr long sword is a splendid one to beholdMr long sword is a splendid one to beholdMr long sword is a splendid one to beholdMr long sword is a splendid one to behold
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    Let's just hope that the right person gets a spot when the women's foil team can't be justified.
    They surely can't justify a women's foil team can they.?

    Aussie.....I'm gettin ready to throw some sh*t in the BFA fan... Hahaha...!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSSabre View Post
    I'd like to see the stats for that in every weapon besides form MF which was already doing pretty well. I'd also like someone to look at the results from the first 2 years of this quad at major championships and the last and see if there has been any noticeable improvement.

    To be honest i just don't agree with your post. I don't feel that there has been a general improvement in results. If there has it is down to the hard work of the coaches and athletes involved and not down to our PM

    DS
    I wasnt suggesting that if there was an improvement in results it was only down to her or if i was Id like to rephrase I thought she had had a hand in their improvement. And 2 L16 in womens Sabre (even though they were ignored), the numerous foil results particularly from younger mens foilests and Sheppard qualifying for the Olympics and the women's epee results such as Rio are just some examples of improvement

  11. #511
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    Ronald's Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    Another feature of Ms Newton's lack of evidence is that she failed to disclose to either PMG or Independent Selectors that Bond-Williams continues to be injured. One of the panel told me that they thought that it was a slight twisted ankle. She has missed two tournaments and will not be in Gand. My information is that she is unlikely to be in Europeans either. She is still not training properly.

    + section BF statement today:

    As with selections for all major championships, all athletes will be required to undergo a full fitness test and medical prior to the Games and these are scheduled for end June / early July. We have until 27th July to make any changes to athlete selections as a result of injury or illness.


    = a possible new selection for WS?


    Maybe, just maybe...

  12. #512
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    The two last 16s from Jojo were after she was cut from funding. Another reason perhaps why she wasn't selected. Besides we have had last 16s before, I am talking about the overall level of improvement.

    Junior results are a result of our overall standard of foil improving over the last 6-8 years down mainly to the excellent work of Ziemek and started a long time before our current PM came into office. In fact we had excellent Junior foil fencers 15 years ago.

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  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider5 View Post
    Is it, really? Are you helping your case or that of the non-selected fencers by all these posts? Unless you have all the evidence to present to an authority that can do something about selections before the Olympics all you're doing is stirring things up. Collate it all and present it when it can actually achieve something positive. All I'm seeing is a lot of verbal acid being thrown about which will make it harder for you to present a coherent believable case for change at some later point.
    I don't think anyone here is criticizing the athletes or coaches involved more the PM. The point of all these posts is to shed light on the issue. As i have stated before i feel for Jon and Truro from being put in this position.

    In one statement BF say that Truro is a centre of excellence then JS says it isn't. Its just been poorly managed by Bf from the beginning and with the wrong athletes being selected in the eyes of quite a few knowledgeable people in the sport you have to ask what happened.

    Please let me know when this will achieve something positive more that happy to present it then. Perhaps the AGM? although i agree with Ronald i don't think our current Pm will be around then.

    DS
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  14. #514
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    DS Sabre

    No that is not what I was suggesting.

    All the fencers selected for Olympics apart from Corinne who made a last 16 are either based in National Foil
    Squads OR at Truro which according to British Fencing's statement yesterday is a designated National Performance Centre. All the other fencers in contention for selection eg Willis, Usher,Cohen,O'Connell,Nicholl,
    and Hutchison were not based at these programmes.

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    Ah okay got it. Read National Squads as National Sabre squads not sure why.

    Thanks

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    Mrs Grizz

    I am aware of the 'medical requirement' which is why Joanna has still a slim chance of selection, but my point is
    that had proper medical evidence been produced at PMT would they have gambled on LBW or rather sought
    further medical assessment first?

    My personal view has always been that it is not now Sophie Williams selection at issue, but a failure to make an
    assessment of Louise Bond-Williams medical condition before making a selection.

  17. #517

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    I don't hold with the hidden agenda suggestion. I'm far more inclined to think that it is just a good old fashioned cock-up.

    If there is real evidence to the contrary I would like to know what it is.

  18. #518
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    Me again...

    I think the reaction of some people who claim to know better on the forum is now out of order.

    Steve and others - stats used at selection were simple results, not my breakdowns & %s. these are mine alone, and if necessary may or may not have been refined and thoroughly checked and corrected for later reference if appeals had been successful. If you read my post carefully this is apparent. I was just trying to show everyone that there is a smaller difference than was being inferred by some of the less well-informed posts (when people were looking at ranking or results after selection for instance). In a close call you MUST look at the value of results not just points scored. Qualification was a 12 month process, not a 4 month one

    A few quick points, after which I will not get drawn into the further debate as I'm now in Warsaw with MS and we're wanting to concentrate on fencing tomorrow:

    - You all need to get perspective - an athlete ranked 59 has been selected ahead of athlete ranked 52. This is not about non-selection of a World number 1, or an 'evil' act. It's a discretionary pick, and not an easy or simple decision. Many sports and many PMs and PDs would have made the same decision

    - All athletes knew how to qualify for the Olympics. None of the WS or MS managed it

    - Adam Blight's post could not be further from the truth: the whole of the season in sabre has been characterised by harmoniousness and team work between all the coaches and fencers in sabre. I have worked with all the main contenders at some point, looking after their concerns at competitons, sideline coaching etc and all have been to Truro to train and i have given them all lessons. All the womens squad are friends, and all very professional in their attitude. I am proud to work with every single one of them. I have spent a lot of time supporting and coaching Jo at qualifying events where Ian was unable to attend, and I have celebrated her wins and been as down about her losses as much as if I were her personal coach. I want all GB fencers to be successful, whether from Truro, London or John O'Groats

    - This selection is not to do with Truro, or any other club, or perceived likes and dislikes. Louise and James were the top GB sabreurs at time of selection. Both were the only ones in their discipline to have beaten top 10 world fencers in qualification. Louise had previous Olympic experience and a top 50 ranking in her favour too. James had his age and obvious talent and potential counting for him. Sophie was the new young talent, just behind in the ranking, but moving forward while others were generally moving back or at best static in the context of their overall career. Whilst there is a good case to be made for any two of the four, the two WS selected (whether anyone likes it or not) best fitted the selection criteria as laid down. I have genuinely not tried to unduly influence selection, and genuinely did not know which two would come out on top. I think if people could see the hours and hours of debate and discussion which have taken place between well-informed coaches and staff on every detail of results and nominations of every athlete, the struggle to make final choices in many areas, and the honesty with which all the Performance Team have discussed each athlete, whether directly linked to them or not, in any specific program or not, then they would maybe sit down and rewrite some of their posts. Ronald I have a great deal of respect for you and your achievements, but you are as biased as anyone, and understandably so. You are wrong on many counts with regard to programs/selections etc

    - I don't think talking about Williams' plans for university post 2012 is reasonable. Many successful athletes have juggled training and university. This is no more relevant than asking what if an athlete plans to have a child or has a job that could take them abroad. Of course the key in all these situations is to put a good structured program in place. If that is done then performance can continue to improve

    - of course qualification for Rio will be hard for anyone, and there are no guarantees. The more fencers who are able to compete for places the better. Sophie, Jo and Chrystall are all strong fencers but clearly all need to improve to qualify for Rio, along with other contenders who will no doubt step up to compete for places over the next 4 years

    - Of course people on here have personal friendships and affiliations, and selection can be contentious and painful, but there are some very intelligent people here, many of whom I regard(ed!?) as friends, and almost all of whom are at least nodding and amiable acquaintances, who are not looking at this objectively with the criteria in mind, and with detailed knowledge of results, and are indulging in some kind of mob mentality. I can understand both sides of the argument (if put rationally) - why is that so hard. You can still land on one side or the other without turning into a hooligan!

    I love our sport and have sacrificed a lot for the team over the last 9 months. I would have been much better off personally, and all the Truro-based fencers would have been better off in terms of training and preparation, if I hadn't taken the job. But someone needed to step up and do it and I believe I have done it well and without favour to any athlete or club and to the benefit of the whole squad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr long sword View Post
    Let's just hope that the right person gets a spot when the women's foil team can't be justified.
    They surely can't justify a women's foil team can they.?
    They can, and they most likely will. But regardless of the controversy, I say, and also might have knitted onto a scarf:
    In Maciej we trust.
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  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigger View Post

    - Of course people on here have personal friendships and affiliations, and selection can be contentious and painful, but there are some very intelligent people here, many of whom I regard(ed!?) as friends, and almost all of whom are at least nodding and amiable acquaintances, who are not looking at this objectively with the criteria in mind, and with detailed knowledge of results, and are indulging in some kind of mob mentality. I can understand both sides of the argument (if put rationally) - why is that so hard. You can still land on one side or the other without turning into a hooligan!

    Indeed, well said. I think everyone now needs to calm down and focus on supporting our team.

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