Warning for anyone trading through this forum (ragingrabbit)

[epeetimekeeper]

I would like to warn anyone who is trading through this forum to be extremely careful with who you deal with. As with anyone on the internet, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Never under any circumstances should you send anyone money to the user on this forum known as ragingrabbit. I will not name him publicly as I feel as if that would be overstepping the mark.

Let me tell you about my trade with him. Having agreed a price (£50) for a "leon paul lightweight plastron" and sent a cheque to him, I hear nothing for two weeks until he tells me that the cheque has been paid in. A mere twenty days later, the plastron is posted and arrived yesterday.

Imagine my surprise when I opened the parcel and a standard economy plastron was staring back at me. I immediately sent a stern but courteous response to the above forum user asking if I could have a lightweight plastron sent to me in due course and this was what I received:

"Glad to hear plastron arrived
I sent you a Leon Paul lightweight plastron
I know it is the new lightweight version, because I have the older style which is made of much thicker cotton material - it has a creamy brown colour inside
This is the new thinner lightweight style
I have responded to all your emails which has taken considerable time, effort and hassle for a product you are unhappy with
I am going to waste no more time with you - sorry
If you dont want the LeonPaul lightweight plastron then sell it on ebay"

As you can see this upstanding pillar of the fencing community considers placing completely the wrong product into a jiffy bag and posting it to me as well as repeatedly fobbing me off as to the progress of the plastron being sent to be as taking "considerable time, effort and hassle". Of course, his solution to his deliberate deception of getting me to pay more than full RRP for a second hand item is for me to sell it on ebay.

I suppose I only have my own stupidity to blame for trusting a random on the internet instead of buying through ebay or my local club where I have at least some options if there are problems with the kit I bought. Unfortunately deliberate deception was not one of the issues that I envisaged happening especially from someone who is supposedly a relatively well known figure in the fencing community.

This has all left a very sour in the mouth for this beginner but I just wanted to let anyone buying kit on here to be extremely careful when doing so.

My apologies to the mods if this topic is too strong but I feel as if I have to speak out about my experience.

[Paul N-M]

Sad experience, buyer beware unfortunately unless the individual can be shown to be 'trading'.
The Forum is a good place for people to buy and sell used equipment that is no longer required for good reasons, grown out of, given up etc as long as they are honest, which most are.
However I would be concerned if the Forum was being used as a cheap 'ebay' subsitute by borderline traders honest or not.

Paul N-M
AllstarUhlmann UK

[cesh_fencing]

It is a real shame that you have been stung like this, especially as you have only just started fencing and I assure you that the huge majority of the forum members would never think of acting in such a way.

I would certainly advise anyone to get at least a picture of any kit they are thinking of buying through the forum sent to them, so that they at least have an idea of what they are actually buying.

It would seem that RR just seems to use the forum to sell kit (from posts history) so maybe they have ruined their reputation, just hope no other new fencer gets stung in future..

Only saving grace is it looks like you got a FIE Economy plastron and not just a 350N which cannot be used for most adult fencing.

[epeetimekeeper]

It is a real shame that you have been stung like this, especially as you have only just started fencing and I assure you that the huge majority of the forum members would never think of acting in such a way.

I would certainly advise anyone to get at least a picture of any kit they are thinking of buying through the forum sent to them, so that they at least have an idea of what they are actually buying.

It would seem that RR just seems to use the forum to sell kit (from posts history) so maybe they have ruined their reputation, just hope no other new fencer gets stung in future..

Only saving grace is it looks like you got a FIE Economy plastron and not just a 350N which cannot be used for most adult fencing.

The key mistake I made was to trust someone because of the community that they are part of. I'd like to stress that I've had nothing but good experiences when dealing with anyone within the fencing community other than this one.

What I'll probably do now is buy myself a superlight allstar plastron and sell the plastron I got on ebay to minimise my loss.

I really should have known something was wrong with the forum name of "ragingrabbit".

[Honeybadger]

Sorry to hear you got bitten, but honestly posting that was probably the best thing you could do. If a mod could sticky it in this forum, you could well have saved a lot of people a lot of money and hassle. Well done sir.

Anyone else looking forward to a reply from RR himself? Im sure it'll be worth reading.

[epeetimekeeper]

I'm going to send all the details to Leon Paul when I get back from work.

Hopefully my bad experience means that nobody else will have to deal with this.

[epeetimekeeper]

UPDATE: This is rather amusing. He's threatened me with legal action and has of course quoted that I didn't ask questions or see photos.

He's just stating facts but I find this to be in completely bad faith.

I'm just throwing this out there but does anyone know if I would be breaking any laws by passing information on to Leon Paul? I assume not but I just want to be sure.

I'm sure British Fencing would love to know about this too.

I just ordered an extra light plastron from Allstar to cheer me up so hopefully that should arrive soon.

[Rids]

UPDATE: This is rather amusing. He's threatened me with legal action and has of course quoted that I didn't ask questions or see photos.

I am not sure exactly what you have done that is illegal. It would be interesting for RR to offer his opinion on that. From my reading of the situation, you have purely stated the facts as they stand. I don't think that is illegal.

[Foilling Around]

Surely it is very simple, if he has described the item as a Leon Paul lightweight plastron then that has a specific meaning as per the Leon Paul website and he has sold it via a Leon Paul forum.

The item you have been supplied with is described on the website as an economy plastron.

Whether accidentally or by design he has misrepresented the item and you are entitled to a refund, including the postage it will cost you to send it back to him.

If you are reading this post ragingrabbit, then look at this web page

http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Pla...rotectors.html

and do the right thing!

[cesh_fencing]

UPDATE: This is rather amusing. He's threatened me with legal action and has of course quoted that I didn't ask questions or see photos.

If he said it was a 'lightweight' leon paul plastron, then that should match the 'lightweight' one on the leon paul website.. You should not have needed to see a photo, or have to ask for more info.

It is the description that was not correct, they cannot then say it was your fault..

I have to say that I am dissapointed that you were not offered your money back straight away... Very poor show by RR..

[cesh_fencing]

Looks like two of us had the same thought!!

[Gav]

I have a very strong suspicion that RagingRabbit (if all of this is true) is breaking the various rules of the forum and the acts which govern selling of items.

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/a...swithgoods.cfm

I am going to refer this one to Leon Paul who operate this site.

This section is offered to enable people to trade their unwanted items in a friendly relatively informal manner. That doesn't excuse those selling the items from their obligations - nor does it relieve the buyer of their rights.

[wingnutLP]

Hi There,

I am in contact with the OP and if I am convinced that the member who advertised the item has misinformed the buyer intentiaonally or otherwise and then refused to rectify the situation he will be banned from the forum.

It has to be stressed that this is the first time that I have heard of any problems with people buying from the used setion of this forum.

Alex

[epeetimekeeper]

EDIT: Paul NM phoned me while I was writing this post and has very kindly cheered me up.

I will thank you in advance for reading the relevant email exchange between ragingrabbit and myself.

I have obviously changed some details to protect both our identities.

-----

//Really can't get more explicit than this email title right?
//This is the start of an exchange which basically confirms that this is what I want.

Subject: Cheque for Medium Lightweight Leon Paul FIE Plastron‏
From: Me
To: ragingrabbit

"ragingabbit,

Could you let me know when the cheque arrives?

I've made it out to "ragingrabbit". I hope that's alright.

Regards

epeetimekeeper"

-----

//Plastron arrives with a thud on my doorstep. To my surprise, it is of course (what I and everyone on this forum know to be an economy FIE plastron. I know this because I have held both lightweight and economy versions in my hands before and this was definitely an economy one. I also know this because I am not an idiot.
//Thinking he has just made a mistake and can be reasoned with, I send him this email. Nothing too rude but very stiff as you can imagine.
//Here is the photo:
http://i.imgur.com/S9XHnl.jpg

"ragingrabbit,

I'm going to assume that you made a mistake by sending me a standard plastron when we agreed that I was paying £50 for a lightweight one. I think we both know I would never pay full price for a second hand item.

Please let me know how you want to resolve this as quickly as possible.

Obviously I haven't touched it since it's completely the wrong thing.

I have attached a picture including my feet for some reason.

Regards,

epeetimekeeper"

-----

//His response as you are already aware of. I (barely) resist punching my monitor.

"Glad to hear plastron arrived
I sent you a Leon Paul lightweight plastron
I know it is the new lightweight version, because I have the older style which is made of much thicker cotton material - it has a creamy brown colour inside
This is the new thinner lightweight style
I have responded to all your emails which has taken considerable time, effort and hassle for a product you are unhappy with
I am going to waste no more time with you - sorry
If you dont want the LeonPaul lightweight plastron then sell it on ebay"

-----

//I don't take the time to think about my response and let loose.

"This is clearly not the lightweight plastron and is the current economy plastron provided by Leon Paul.

You have deliberately misled me and effectively stolen money from me.

You take days at best to reply to emails which require all of five minutes to process.

Mark my words you won't have heard the end of this.

-----

//Pretty awesome reply that I have mentioned before. He certainly seems to think that he knows what he's doing. Also, aren't all emails kept "on file" unless deleted? Or is this some kind of metaphorical file?

"Thank You for your email

The item was sold in good faith and I am not an expert on the current Leon Paul plastrons - the one sold is lightweight in physical weight compared to the older one i had previously.
You purchased the item without seeing photos or asking any questions.

You have just threatened me in your last email correspondence and you should be aware threats by any form including those by electronic means can carry prison sentences.
I suggest you become familiar with the law.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/27

I now have sufficient evidence to report you to the police who may choose to launch an investigation against you under the 1988 Malicious Communications Act as you have threatened me.
Further correspondence from yourself by any means will be deemed as harassment and will be reported.

I will keep this correspondence and copies on file."

-----

So there you have it. That's all the relevant correspondence from ragingrabbit. I hope you enjoyed reading this epic saga of email rage.

I also sent him one of the emails that I forwarded to wingnut by accident but hopefully this will trigger some kind of reponse. Let's just say I'm not holding my breath on this one.

Finally, the best thing about all of this is that during his correspondence, he sent me his phone number and name which of course gave the location of his fencing school. I wouldn't do it of course but this could be a very large stick to beat him with if he decides to try and push me around.

I have an economy plastron for sale of course. Contact me if interested. :P

[epeetimekeeper]

I'd just like to thank everyone here for the moral support on this thread. I suppose I just have to live and learn.

I sent everything to wingnut (possibly clogging up his inbox with all kinds of nonsense) and hopefully the guy at least gets banned.

I'll never try to cut corners again and Ill just be thankful that I didn't buy £300 worth of stuff from him.