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Thread: lets Make the standard piste length 2 metres shorter discuss!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Barry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud of Barry Paul's Avatar
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    Default lets Make the standard piste length 2 metres shorter discuss!

    Looking at the space need for our proposed fencing centre I has me wondering. Is there any thing that says pistes must be 17 metres long? What would be the result of making them 2 metres shorter.
    Benefits would be;
    1. Piste would fit better into standard sized/width gyms.
    2. Pistes would be cheaper.
    3. Pistes would be lighter.
    4. Easier to have fixed position video reply with no need for a camera operator.
    5. Fencers would be forced onto the metre line more often so the fencing might be more exiting.
    6. Fencers would not have to be so fit.

    Disadvantage.
    1. Fencers would not be used to it.
    2. It is not what we have fenced on for the last 100 Years.
    3?

    Discuss

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    Barry, I like your reason number 6.

    This would only work if everyone did it, worldwide.
    But then what do we do with all the pistes we already own?

  3. #3
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond repute cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Paul View Post
    Looking at the space need for our proposed fencing centre I has me wondering. Is there any thing that says pistes must be 17 metres long? What would be the result of making them 2 metres shorter.
    Discuss
    How would you re-adjust the distance between lines to cut 2 metres off.. Would you suggest just cutting the space between en-garde line and 2 metre line??
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

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    The fencing area of the piste is 14m. The 1.5m run-off either side can be shaved to save a metre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coach carson View Post
    The fencing area of the piste is 14m. The 1.5m run-off either side can be shaved to save a metre.
    I think the issue is that most halls are very tight to allow safe run off at 14 metres. Cutting to 12 would allow room for safe pasage of parents etc past the back of the piste..

    Do not see this being a problem for clubs situation, however for competitions????
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  6. #6
    Senior Member Barry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud ofBarry Paul has much to be proud of Barry Paul's Avatar
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    As the two metre line is not used we can just reduce the old two metre line by a one metre line. In rubber piste we just draw two new lines one metre in from the present end of the piste. For pistes that come in one metre sections you take out two sections.

    This is just detail. The point of the discussion should be why do we have the present length? Is it necessary? Would a shorter length make fencing more exiting or better still more exciting?

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    Junior piste length is 12 metres anyway. Most people marking out pistes for LPJS events and even in local comps tend to use badminton courts which are 12 metres. Measuring 2:2:2 metres from the centre line is easier and I personally think it would make diddly squat difference to technique of tactics.
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    its not as if there is no precedent for shortening the piste. The piste used to be longer in effect anyway ? As far as I think You used to get put back on the piste and told you have 2m left to fence therefore making the fighting area of the piste 18m . Paul/Barry you are old enough to remember better than me

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Paul View Post
    This is just detail. The point of the discussion should be why do we have the present length? Is it necessary? Would a shorter length make fencing more exiting or better still more exciting?
    I actually think a better discussion is why do we really need to change it?
    1. I don't accept the argument that it's to do with fitting into a standard (basketball?) sized indoor hall.
    2. I also wonder about the economic argument.
    3. From a fencers point of view - why would they care that the piste is lighter?
    4. I don't accept the argument viz video because that's a set up/management issue.
    5. Would fencing be more "exiting"? That's difficult to say and honestly if we think our sport isn't exciting we've already lost the argument with "others".
    6. The fitness comment is a bit cheeky.

    If you change the length of the piste then you are effectively changing the environment. Changing the environment changes the nature of the game and it's difficult to predict the outcomes.

    So I come back to the original question: what is the aim of your proposed change?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    I think the issue is that most halls are very tight to allow safe run off at 14 metres. Cutting to 12 would allow room for safe pasage of parents etc past the back of the piste..

    Do not see this being a problem for clubs situation, however for competitions????
    Organisers need to be better, more professional, have improved management and that's a different argument. Having better infrastructure and perhaps getting the fencer to accept higher fees for better halls is probably a more realistic solution.

    In addition I don't understand why we should even consider altering the environment to accommodate people wandering around the hall. Instead we should be managing spectator access better and more importantly - and very probably - limiting general spectator access until latter stage so that a "spectacle" can be put on.
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  11. #11
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond repute cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    In addition I don't understand why we should even consider altering the environment to accommodate people wandering around the hall. Instead we should be managing spectator access better and more importantly - and very probably - limiting general spectator access until latter stage so that a "spectacle" can be put on.
    As everyone knows at Elite Epee Events we always 'manage' spectators and keep them away from the pistes. It does take imagination to arrange halls to allow this though. However both of the halls we use are bigger than the average school sports hall..

    I think the issue is that hall availability is always an issue, so if there was the option of using general school sports halls (i.e. normal school halls which have 4 badminton courts without much extra width) that would be useful as there are loads of these available, however this is not something I would see as a reason to change piste length at adult events.

    One of the things that I am actually looking at is for fencers to be able to accept '2 wave' first rounds so that I could run my Elite Epee Senior Events at my venue up in Oundle. As such I could run more events through the year (especially for women's events)..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foilling Around View Post
    <snip>use badminton courts which are 12 metres.</snip>
    Actually, badminton courts should be 44' (approx 13.4m) long from outside to outside of the end lines.


    I'm not sure about reducing piste length. It would certainly let you fit them into more halls with a safe amount of run-off at each end instead of running into walls. At the same time though, providing you manage the space properly and don't have piles of bags, etc at the back of each piste, I can fit a 17m piste into any of the 3 halls I run clubs at (two are normal school sports halls and the other is a sports centre). It doesn't leave much room for walking past without walking across the run-off area, but if you are sensible it can be done.

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    Surely making the pistes smaller would reduce the speed of the sport, as you can't have as much space to accelerate/decelerate before you run out of piste?

    We often see some of the best phrases in sabre where one fencer gets chased to the backline, recovers and charges back the other way. I would need convincing that this would still be likely if we made it shorter.

    In epee however, I reckon they could bounce at each other with occasional steps in about 5m to be honest. Fit loads of pistes in a sports hall!
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokers View Post
    In epee however, I reckon they could bounce at each other with occasional steps in about 5m to be honest. Fit loads of pistes in a sports hall!
    Not going to take that lying down... We could do it inside 4m

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    Having operated the cameras at 2012 I can assure you that an entire quarter if the sabre L32 actually did operate in the central 4 metres for their whole fights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufc99 View Post
    Actually, badminton courts should be 44' (approx 13.4m) long from outside to outside of the end lines.

    I'm not sure about reducing piste length. ....
    I would certainly support a rule that allowed a piste to be the same length as a badminton court, for competitions up to open level anyway. Why not allow a slight variation in length, as there is for width? I really doubt many fencers would notice a variation of 50 cm either way.

    It's not just about the fencing, it's about how fast it is to set up the pistes in many venues. It's also easier to referee if the piste edges are aligned with existing floor markings than if they are marked with wonky bits of tape every few feet.

    The argument will be academic for higher-level competitions at foil and epee anyway, as they will be on metal pistes that are already marked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stolen Time View Post
    I would certainly support a rule that allowed a piste to be the same length as a badminton court, for competitions up to open level anyway. Why not allow a slight variation in length, as there is for width? I really doubt many fencers would notice a variation of 50 cm either way.

    It's not just about the fencing, it's about how fast it is to set up the pistes in many venues. It's also easier to referee if the piste edges are aligned with existing floor markings than if they are marked with wonky bits of tape every few feet.

    The argument will be academic for higher-level competitions at foil and epee anyway, as they will be on metal pistes that are already marked.
    Piste length is easy - a badminton court plus the length of my foot at each end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkelephant View Post
    Piste length is easy - a badminton court plus the length of my foot at each end.
    Giving a simple requirement for all competition organisers to carry one of your feet with them at all times...
    I said I couldn't hit it sideways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkelephant View Post
    Piste length is easy - a badminton court plus the length of my foot at each end.
    And we now know Mavis's foot is exactly 60 centimetres long

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    And we now know Mavis's foot is exactly 60 centimetres long
    Wow - That's one really big foot you're sporting there, Mavis!

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