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Thread: Ashton LPJS foil organisation

  1. #1

    Default Ashton LPJS foil organisation

    The organisers really need to look at how this was organised.

    Issues are:
    The fencers arrived before the organisers or even before the sports centre was open.

    Check-in didn't open until 15 mins before it was due to close

    First round of poules started 45 mins after check-in closed.

    Over an hour an half between first and second round poules. (Second round started at midday, check-in closed at 9 a.m.)! The reason given - there were some queries in relation to the first round. Question: why weren't they resolved in the previous hour and half.

    We were able to listen to Chelsea v Man Utd and watch Scotland v Ireland rugby. It would have better if the kids had been fencing instead....

    Other groups started later, with more fencers, and finished well before the U11.

    The presentation ceremony was the last (with the U13 boys) and we left at 4.50p.m..

    All this for 11 entries of kids aged between 9 and 11.

    Oh, and the refereeing was fine on priority etc. - normal differences of opinion but overall of a high standard. However, they failed to take any action against kids covering (about 3 or 4 consistent offenders) or corps-a-corps. I even saw one kid cover and grab his opponents foil. And what did the referee do? Yep, absolutely nothing. They even failed to do anything when a fencer took his mask off during the fight (literally). This really isn't good enough.

    I won't make the same mistake and go to this competition again.

  2. #2
    Initiate SMJ will become famous soon enoughSMJ will become famous soon enough
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    As a parent of an U13, I think this criticism is incredibly harsh. I'm really grateful that clubs take the trouble to organise LPJS events. My son and his friends thought that this was pretty well organised and that timings were ok. Refereeing was generally of a high standard and was cheerfully and competently explained.

    Would certainly be happy to come back next year. And we're not local, for clarity.

  3. #3

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    Such a shame as the epee on Saturday was quick compared to other LPJS, started within 10 minutes of checkin and 2nd round pools were almost instant. I had children in U11 and U15, only delay was waiting for U11 final. Finished and medals before 1pm.Also was all on metal pistes unlike some other LPJS. One comment would have been posting pool sheets which would of made spotting mistakes easier. Organizers friendly and helpful. Would be good to have an official feedback or rating system for the LPJS series.

  4. #4
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond repute cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jahl View Post
    Would be good to have an official feedback or rating system for the LPJS series.
    There is a feedback system that events can ask to be included into. It is the British Parents Group Competition Survey.

    Initially it was set up to get feeback on BSC/Selection events, however the Elite Epee Junior Series asked if our events could be included and since then some the Opens and other events have also asked to be included. I find that inclusion in this system keeps me on my toes and I am obliged to ensure everything runs exactly as I promise the events to run.

    Maybe inclusion in this survey could be obliged by LP for their LPJS events, so that parents can return feedback on these events.

    It is very important that organisers ensure they keep their eyes open for events that could get delayed as even if only 11 out of 100 fencers get a bad experience, they will shout far louder than the other 90 odd that had no issues at the event.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  5. #5

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    We attended with two children and have to agree in part with the first poster that the organisers of the event need to look at the timings of the event and the provision of referees. There were a number of times many pistes were unused whilst children sat around for long periods of time. We also struggled as there was no space at all to warm up either in the hall or out.


    On the positive side we found the organisers friendly and the metal pistes and lp stand provision great.

    Our children enjoyed the event, however we were one of the fortunate to be away early!

  6. #6
    Forum Rabbit Torston1969 is on a distinguished road
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    To be honest I also think the OP is a little harsh. This to my mind was a well run event and one we have attended several years running and will be returning to, (from Scotland BTW). There was some delay, but this was well explained as down to a shortage of referees, as 8 originally on the list to ref were at another event on the day. The organisers were trying to cajoule others (fencing parents, fencers if they were not fencing etc) to help ref if they were able to but do not think many, if any, took up the offer. You can't come on here complaining about something if you are not willing to make it better if asked to help on the day.
    All in all a very good day and we came away with an excellent result winning the boys U13 event, so can't complain.

    Well done Ashton and all the organisers, see you again next year

  7. #7
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond reputecesh_fencing has a reputation beyond repute cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torston1969 View Post
    There was some delay, but this was well explained as down to a shortage of referees, as 8 originally on the list to ref were at another event on the day.
    Finding referees is always a pain for organisers, however is probably the most important thng for organisers to ensure is sorted out in advance as the knock on effect to the running of events is massive if you are lacking numbers. Having less pistes and utilizing them pretty much 100% is far more efficient than having lots of pistes but no referees to run them, especially at kids events when referees are essential.

    Down in Surrey as our EEJS events have been running for some years, it is usually fairly easy to get referees together as the R&REC now has lots of young adults attending who make great experienced refs, however for our last event up in Oundle, with the Academy sessions taking place down in Brunel it was not easy as we lost several of our usual referees, however we asked other local clubs for help and ended up with more referees than we needed for much of the weekend.

    I do feel that all organisers need to ensure they have several extra 'emergency' refs on call just in case any of their main booked group of referees need to drop out for any reason. That means that this situation is less likely to occur..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torston1969 View Post
    The organisers were trying to cajoule others (fencing parents, fencers if they were not fencing etc) to help ref if they were able to but do not think many, if any, took up the offer. You can't come on here complaining about something if you are not willing to make it better if asked to help on the day.

    I agree with this comment. However, the explanation given was that there were problems with the first round poule sheets which had to be resolved rather than the number of referees. There were a number of vacant pistes and referees were sitting around waiting. I didn't hear any organisers trying to cajoule others to help ref, although your experience may be different to mine. I also can't see how that would have resolved the first round issue?

    As for feedback, I agree with Cash's comment that feedback should be compulsory for running an LPJS competition, although I am not sure what the consequences are if feedback is good or poor? Is it simply publicised so that people can make an informed decision whether or not to attend in future?

  9. #9
    Forum Rabbit My Ruin is on a distinguished road
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    [We were able to listen to Chelsea v Man Utd and watch Scotland v Ireland rugby. It would have better if the Oh, and the refereeing was fine on priority etc. - normal differences of opinion but overall of a high standard. However, they failed to take any action against kids covering (about 3 or 4 consistent offenders) or corps-a-corps. I even saw one kid cover and grab his opponents foil. And what did the referee do? Yep, absolutely nothing. They even failed to do anything when a fencer took his mask off during the fight (literally). This really isn't good enough.]

    having read the first quote, this does seem to be harsh considering I was present on the day as well and the atmosphere seemed to be friendly compared to other competitions I have been too. However, my attention was drawn to the above statement in particular and a few questions crossed my mind.
    Did you challange the referee to understanding their postitioning on the matter?
    Did you raise this with the organisers so it could be address officially?
    Did you stand by and dismiss the incident?

    I do fail to understand why you would want to complain about this after the event if no action was taken at the time. Obviously if this was highlighted steps could have been taken.

  10. #10
    Senior Member grizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond repute
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    Finding referees is always a pain for organisers, however is probably the most important thng for organisers to ensure is sorted out in advance as the knock on effect to the running of events is massive if you are lacking numbers. Having less pistes and utilizing them pretty much 100% is far more efficient than having lots of pistes but no referees to run them, especially at kids events when referees are essential.

    Down in Surrey as our EEJS events have been running for some years, it is usually fairly easy to get referees together as the R&REC now has lots of young adults attending who make great experienced refs, however for our last event up in Oundle, with the Academy sessions taking place down in Brunel it was not easy as we lost several of our usual referees, however we asked other local clubs for help and ended up with more referees than we needed for much of the weekend.

    I do feel that all organisers need to ensure they have several extra 'emergency' refs on call just in case any of their main booked group of referees need to drop out for any reason. That means that this situation is less likely to occur..
    Do you pay the refs for the EEJS?

  11. #11
    Senior Member grizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond reputegrizz has a reputation beyond repute
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    I think competitions should be categorised by the organisers declaring if they are running an event for profit (even if it is only to subsidise their club). Or not for profit ( any profits to de donated to a charity or central fencing fund).

    This way we could then judge if any perceived problems are acceptable or not. For example, if an event is being runs to raise money for charity, I would be more than happy to help out and ref for nothing, however, if it is being run for profit, I would not be willing to ref for free and would be unwilling to put up with poorly run events.

    Jed

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by My Ruin View Post
    [
    Did you challange the referee to understanding their postitioning on the matter?
    Did you raise this with the organisers so it could be address officially?
    Did you stand by and dismiss the incident?

    .
    In reply. Yes, I spoke to referees. Not only that, my son complained to the referee when he was fencing. Did the referee ask for arm judges? No. Did the referee spot the repeated future braking of the rules? No. Did the referee do anything when the fencer took his mask off during the fight (other than call halt)? No.

    Did I raise the issue with the organisers? No. I raised the timetabling issue, but there was no satisfactory reply.

    Did I stand by and dismiss the incidents? No.

    were the referees competent? Yes for phrasing and priority, but hopeless in enforcing the other rules.

    Would I go back next year? Absolutely not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I know nothing View Post
    In reply. Yes, I spoke to referees. Not only that, my son complained to the referee when he was fencing. Did the referee ask for arm judges? No. Did the referee spot the repeated future braking of the rules? No. Did the referee do anything when the fencer took his mask off during the fight (other than call halt)? No.

    Did I raise the issue with the organisers? No. I raised the timetabling issue, but there was no satisfactory reply.

    Did I stand by and dismiss the incidents? No.

    were the referees competent? Yes for phrasing and priority, but hopeless in enforcing the other rules.

    Would I go back next year? Absolutely not.
    Is there such a thing as age appropriate refereeing? Can a referee choose discretion when presiding over U11's?
    What should the ref have done for the offences you describe in your opinion?

    I am not a ref! (Well, passed level 1 but not got any real experience.)
    The longer I do it the harder it gets.

  14. #14

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    The referee should have enforced the laws of the sport. Annulling hits where the fencer hitting whilst covering and issuing yellow and red cards appropriately. Once fencers start having hits awarded against them (or not being awarded hits they scored) they will soon learn the rules, and will become better fencers for it. Is it fair that one fencer plays by the rules of the game, but another ignores them with impunity? In my book, no. Whilst I don't think there was any deliberate cheating by anyone (i.e consciously breaking the rules) the refs certainly gave one fencer an unfair advantage over the other in some fights by failing to enforce the rules.

  15. #15
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    I've been asking around and I get the impression that this event was neither better nor worse than other kiddie events. As I am relatively new to the kiddie comps ... whether that's a good or bad thing I can't say. We do get delays in all tournaments. Getting good quality officials is a perennial problem in our sport. I don't disagree that rules should be enforced but here in the UK when even our "big" tournaments are largely self refereed it's tricky to state whether the refereeing was particularly bad.
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  16. #16
    Senior Member d_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to behold
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    You call yourself 'I know nothing' but you clearly know some rules of foil fencing; covering target for example.
    It would help your argument if people knew a bit more about you; simply creating an account on this forum to slate a LPJS event won't go in you favour.
    I'm guessing your child didn't do too well in this competition.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by I know nothing View Post
    The referee should have enforced the laws of the sport. Annulling hits where the fencer hitting whilst covering and issuing yellow and red cards appropriately
    For U11 events giving cards can be quite upsetting for fencers. Better that referees explain what a fencer has done wrong rather than card. Obviously anything that could be dangerous should be dealt with properly; for U11 I think its more of a safety issue for the fencer covering target than anything else. Remember the LPJS is designed as an introduction to competitive fencing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grizz View Post
    I think competitions should be categorised by the organisers declaring if they are running an event for profit (even if it is only to subsidise their club). Or not for profit ( any profits to de donated to a charity or central fencing fund).

    This way we could then judge if any perceived problems are acceptable or not. For example, if an event is being runs to raise money for charity, I would be more than happy to help out and ref for nothing, however, if it is being run for profit, I would not be willing to ref for free and would be unwilling to put up with poorly run events.

    Jed
    Hi Jed, do you really think this matters?
    I've never hosted a competition for profit for my club. Yesterday we hosted a BYC qualifier event and were short of referees despite me emailing 2 clubs in advance that they were sending a considerable number of entrants and needed to supply a referee, but both were stubborn to assist on the day.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Nick E has much to be proud ofNick E has much to be proud ofNick E has much to be proud ofNick E has much to be proud ofNick E has much to be proud ofNick E has much to be proud ofNick E has much to be proud ofNick E has much to be proud ofNick E has much to be proud of
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    I read the first post on the thread and reflected back on the dozen lpjs comps we did last year across foil and épée. There were some great events, and one or two with challenges. We have arrived for our check in time to find all pistes full and just starting from the earlier age group who arrived up to an hour before. Some competitions take entries on the day, often from their newer fencers for whom this is their first ever outing into such an arena. We have had competitions requiring the U15 or U17 fencers to referee waves of poules between their own. We have had competitions across several halls running like clockwork.

    The lpjs is surely set up as a developmental series, hooking in the younger fencers of all abilities, and allowing new competition organisers the chance for some level of support to extend the range of opportunities available. There will be some variable fencing, and I'm sure that if the referee had 'coached' to correct such errors as reported, that would have been wrong too.

    When I read the later posts I had to remind myself that we weren't talking about the British Championships, with one round of poules, a 20% cut, and some significant consequences for the odd 'poorly' refereed fight.

    Leon Paul clearly set a certain standard for the competitions in the series, so you get two rounds of poules, and lots of opportunity to fence. Mostly the refereeing will be voluntary, with very little income generated from relatively cheap entry fees, and often low numbers. But there are lots of folk giving it a go and organising. And not always getting it 100% right. I really enjoyed Cardiff foil last year, but had a thirty minute walk to the car due to a clash at the venue with a major public event and no parking, and entry numbers that took everyone by surprise.

    We should praise those running these competitions, as without them everything would be left to big central activities, not lots of opportunities around the country.

    I do however agree that feedback is vital, as in my view is the publishing of entry lists (so that we know it as arrived before travelling), and both could so easily be done via the lpjs website, or using survey monkey linked to the website.

  20. #20
    Senior Member d_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to beholdd_f_a is a splendid one to behold
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    Agree with everything Nick E says.

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