Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Hydration: Should fencers spit or swallow?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    219

    Default Hydration: Should fencers spit or swallow?

    New research on whether fencers should spit or swallow.

    http://www.iflscience.com/health-and...-sports-drinks

    Looks like a small n. I'm not convinced by the results.

  2. #2
    Forum Rabbit
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5

    Default

    I've only ever been given one bit of advice regarding water when competing, and this was from Herman, the giant of a physio/witch doctor. At the Birmingham International. So I treat this as gold:

    Drink natural mineral water. Example being Volvic.

    He told me natural mineral water takes 10 minutes to hydrate you. Whereas if it's not natural mineral water, your body spends too much time breaking it down, and it takes 4 hours for the hydration to occur.

    I don't know if it actually works! But he swore by it, and tells me EVERY time I see him, every year.

    Love the thread title, though.

  3. #3
    Senior Member ChrisHeaps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Lytham
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr E View Post
    I've only ever been given one bit of advice regarding water when competing, and this was from Herman, the giant of a physio/witch doctor. At the Birmingham International. So I treat this as gold:

    Drink natural mineral water. Example being Volvic.

    He told me natural mineral water takes 10 minutes to hydrate you. Whereas if it's not natural mineral water, your body spends too much time breaking it down, and it takes 4 hours for the hydration to occur.

    I don't know if it actually works! But he swore by it, and tells me EVERY time I see him, every year.

    Love the thread title, though.
    He told me the same thing. Since then I and my two daughters only ever drink mineral water at competitions. My experience is that I need to go to the loo less often so less going straight through and that I'm getting less cramp towards the end of competitions. I think it works.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    540

    Default

    What absolute rubbish

  5. #5
    Initiate
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    87

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by riposteinprime View Post
    What absolute rubbish
    Exactly what I thought. If it was true you wouldn't ever see top athletes drink anything other than water. The likes of Andy Murray for instance can usually be seen taking 50/50 water and some special isotonic cocktail.

    There's some evidence to suggest one shouldn't always trust witch doctors.

  6. #6
    Paul Sibert Foilling Around's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Lead Performance Coach at Nottingham University
    Posts
    5,081

    Default

    I asked Laurence Halsted about the sports drink and water mix. He told me it was on the dentists advice. If you train hours each day consuming sports drinks then your teeth are in a bath of acid all day. Swilling water after the sports drink reduces that problem.

    Remembering that most of sport is in the head, then that is where the "natural vs artificial" mineral water affects you. I challenge anyone to produce a peer reviewed paper to show that natural mineral water and tap water are metabolised in a different way.

    In terms of the original article, taking optimum hydration and energy would be the goal of any athlete. Most nutritionists say that commercial products are far too concentrated. Dilute 1:1 with water was the advice given by the guys at Middlesex Uni.
    British Fencing AASE Assessor
    British Fencing Coach Developer

    Veteran Foil Champion of Szombathely 2015 and 2016!!

  7. #7
    Senior Member ChrisHeaps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Lytham
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by riposteinprime View Post
    What absolute rubbish
    Ha Ha! Yes, when you put it like that RIP I see I must have been mistaken. I will go back to drinking corporation pop forthwith.

  8. #8
    Forum Rabbit
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    16

    Default

    The paper/research linked to in the original post isn't about hydration - when you're spitting the drink out (whatever it is) you're not going to get much of a hydration benefit. The paper (from my reading) was looking at whether the presence of a carbohydrate in the drink can help precent the effects of mental fatigue during exercise and if so, does the sugar actually need to be ingested or is it enough to just swill it around in your mouth. Lindsay Bottoms would be the best person to talk to about this research, because she was the one who carried it out.

    As to the mineral water vs plain water vs other drinks debate - the thing that hydrates you is H2O, the presence of carbohydrates, minerals and other things can have a small impact, but any of them will hydrate you. The numbers given re. "breaking down" things look like nonsense to me and reeks of pseudoscience - as Foiling Around said, peer reviewed paper please?

    And while we're on the topic of peer reviewed papers, if people are interested there is plenty of actual research on the topic of hydration for athletes out there, for example: http://www.kon.org/urc/v10/athletic-...ng/decker.html. You just have to go look for it and not get side tracked by pop-science articles or take what well-meaning but potentially ill-informed physics/massage therapists/personal trainers believe as gospel. The science is out there and in cases and areas like this one is the way to keep up to date with best practice.

  9. #9
    Senior Member JackSparrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Shipwrecked
    Posts
    335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrit View Post
    There's some evidence to suggest one shouldn't always trust witch doctors.
    *hides bone charm*

    That's exactly what I've always thought...


    I'm pretty sure that at my last match at the Excalibur against Alp Orge, he was having a beer before the bout. It's almost as if he wasn't taking it seriously.
    Savvy!

  10. #10
    Initiate pjgh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Bradford Fencing Club
    Posts
    72

    Default

    I find a bloody good session the night before helps ... once the booze sweat fog starts to wipe out your opponents, it's time for some water. Mineral water. Second 2 litre bottle with a good pinch of salt for the afternoon session ...

    ... all devoid of empirical evidence, of course, but it's water for me. Mineral water. Swallowed.

  11. #11
    Senior Member gethylogic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Francophile View Post
    New research on whether fencers should spit or swallow.

  12. #12
    Paul Sibert Foilling Around's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Lead Performance Coach at Nottingham University
    Posts
    5,081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisHeaps View Post
    Ha Ha! Yes, when you put it like that RIP I see I must have been mistaken. I will go back to drinking corporation pop forthwith.
    I suspect what RIP meant to say is that if it works for you, then it that is great. However it is doubtful if there is any physiological basis for that being the case. If there is, then I would be intrigued to see the evidence.
    British Fencing AASE Assessor
    British Fencing Coach Developer

    Veteran Foil Champion of Szombathely 2015 and 2016!!

  13. #13
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    East Northamptonshire - Yarwell
    Posts
    4,988

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Foilling Around View Post
    Remembering that most of sport is in the head, then that is where the "natural vs artificial" mineral water affects you. I challenge anyone to produce a peer reviewed paper to show that natural mineral water and tap water are metabolised in a different way.
    It certainly would be an interesting one, but probably not one that the water suppliers would want to fund.

    Personal view, mineral water all the way when competing. There is a logical argument about how absorption of water works in your body, but personal experience is what I work from.. As Paul says, just an opinion..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  14. #14
    Senior Member Harty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    214

    Default

    Ross Tucker always provides good analysis of these things.

    http://sportsscientists.com/2008/11/no-need-to-swallow/

    As to mineral vs tap water. Seriously? Mineral water easier to absorb? What absolute nonsense.
    Ex-foilist. Ex-director of Scottish Fencing.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Harty View Post
    As to mineral vs tap water. Seriously? Mineral water easier to absorb? What absolute nonsense.
    Amen to that. Especially as mineral water is just tap water from somewhere else that's been bottled and transported...

    But hey ho, why let science get in the way of a good anecdote.

  16. #16
    Moderator Gav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    There's a great documentary about how we've been swindled by drinks manufacturers into thinking that bottled water is "better". Especially here in the UK and also the US.

    I'll see if I can find it.
    "Evil does not wear a bonnet!"
    "Thanks Ants ... Thants.


    It is forbidden to dream again;
    We maim our joys or hide them;

  17. #17
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    East Northamptonshire - Yarwell
    Posts
    4,988

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Savin.A View Post
    Especially as mineral water is just tap water from somewhere else that's been bottled and transported...
    That is spring water. Mineral water has set rules on how it is allowed to be processed.

    Agreed spring water is generally just tap water.

    Everyone can have their own person views on their personal experiences, but I am not a fan of processed sports drinks, but prefer Mineral water on taste as well as any other thing (and different waters do differ in taste).
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    198

    Default Bobble filter in a sport bottle

    These work great especially if you have ran out of water. Tap water will taste so refreshing as its filtered similar to Brita filtered water. Plus its convienent and one does not fully trust bottled water as you still do not know the source. One filter will probably last a month of so. Daughter only drinks water during competition as well. So far so good

  19. #19
    Forum Rabbit
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Battersea, London
    Posts
    10

    Default Spit or swallow!

    Happy new year to you all.
    Ok, like most parents. I do not agree with my boys want & desire for the "sports drink"
    But I have also experienced the boy running around with his new found fencing pals and not wanting to rest, eat or drink.
    I looked into the whole carbohydrates drinks some time ago and the results were surprising
    to say the least.. I've pasted the core procedure and results below.
    The important fact is mouth rinse and spit, Not swallowing!!!

    This study investigated the impact that mouth rinsing carbohydrate solution has on skill- specific performance and reaction time following a fatigue inducing bout of fencing in epee fencers. Nine healthy, national level epee fencers visited a laboratory on 2 occasions, separated by a minimum of 5 days, to complete a 1-minute lunge test and Stroop test pre and post fatigue. Heart rate and ratings of perceived exertion (RPE) were recorded during completion of the fatiguing protocol. Between fights the participants mouth rinsed for 10 seconds, either 25ml of 6.7% maltodextrin solution (MALT) or water (PLAC). Blood lactate and glucose were recorded at baseline, pre- and post-testing. Results showed an increase in heart rate and overall RPE over time in both conditions. There were no differences in blood glucose (F(1,8)=.63, P=.4, ηp=.07) or blood lactate levels (F(1,8)=.12, P=.70, ηp=.01) between conditions as a function of time. There was a significant improvement in lunge test accuracy during the MALT trial (F(1,8)=5.21, P=.05, ηp=.40) with an increase from pre (81.2 8.3%) to post (87.6 9.4%), whereas there was no significant change during the placebo (pre 82.1 8.8%, post 78.8 6.4%). There were no recorded differences between conditions in response time to congruent (F(1,8)=.33, P=.58, ηp=.04) or incongruent stimuli (F(1,8)=.19, P=.68, ηp=.02). The study indicates that when fatigued mouth rinsing MALT significantly improves accuracy of skill-specific fencing performance but no corresponding influence on reaction time was observed.

  20. #20
    Senior Member ChrisHeaps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Lytham
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer's dad View Post
    Happy new year to you all.
    Ok, like most parents. I do not agree with my boys want & desire for the "sports drink"
    But I have also experienced the boy running around with his new found fencing pals and not wanting to rest, eat or drink.
    I looked into the whole carbohydrates drinks some time ago and the results were surprising
    to say the least.. I've pasted the core procedure and results below.
    The important fact is mouth rinse and spit, Not swallowing!!!

    This study investigated the impact that mouth rinsing carbohydrate solution has on skill- specific performance and reaction time following a fatigue inducing bout of fencing in epee fencers. Nine healthy, national level epee fencers visited a laboratory on 2 occasions, separated by a minimum of 5 days, to complete a 1-minute lunge test and Stroop test pre and post fatigue. Heart rate and ratings of perceived exertion (RPE) were recorded during completion of the fatiguing protocol. Between fights the participants mouth rinsed for 10 seconds, either 25ml of 6.7% maltodextrin solution (MALT) or water (PLAC). Blood lactate and glucose were recorded at baseline, pre- and post-testing. Results showed an increase in heart rate and overall RPE over time in both conditions. There were no differences in blood glucose (F(1,8)=.63, P=.4, ηp=.07) or blood lactate levels (F(1,8)=.12, P=.70, ηp=.01) between conditions as a function of time. There was a significant improvement in lunge test accuracy during the MALT trial (F(1,8)=5.21, P=.05, ηp=.40) with an increase from pre (81.2 8.3%) to post (87.6 9.4%), whereas there was no significant change during the placebo (pre 82.1 8.8%, post 78.8 6.4%). There were no recorded differences between conditions in response time to congruent (F(1,8)=.33, P=.58, ηp=.04) or incongruent stimuli (F(1,8)=.19, P=.68, ηp=.02). The study indicates that when fatigued mouth rinsing MALT significantly improves accuracy of skill-specific fencing performance but no corresponding influence on reaction time was observed.
    Lol, that's the original study conducted by Lindsay Bottoms posted at the top of this thread.

    In actual fact according to the study you can swallow if you want to. After doing the rinse you only need to spit if you don't want to consume the calories in the drink, maybe if you're on a diet to avoid buying new post Christmas breeches.

    And here's a few more words to get around the new min length posting restriction.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •