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Thread: Choosing a Selection scheme

  1. #21
    Member Mapk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    Or more importantly, how can I fence 'smarter' than the youngsters.

    I actually quite like fencing the 'fast' youngsters, they fly onto my point quicker.

    It is the smarter younger fencers who use timing correctly that are the trickier ones..

    I sometimes find my very slowness upsets the youngsters rhythm!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisHeaps View Post
    In fact I just looked you up on Wikipedia:

    Graham Paul (born 15 May 1947) is a British fencer.

    Thanks Chris, but Wikipedia missed out that I was second in the London section schoolboys in 1960,

  3. #23
    Member jacquesdor's Avatar
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    As Frank always used to remind us.....
    The longer I do it the harder it gets.

  4. #24
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    Default An Alternative Selection Scheme

    I have written a proposed selection scheme based on Duncan’s scheme with some minor alterations.

    In summary the handicap scheme suggested by Duncan is retained for all Veteran competitions, and is included in the direct elimination which is not segregated. Points may be scored in all Veteran competitions and in Opens.
    The number of competitions counted vary according to age category. The points scored by winning a Veteran competition will related to those available for winning a ‘minor’ Open at that weapon and gender. The points scored in an Open will be taken from the BF system but will be capped at the maximum available in a veteran competition.


    Proposed Ranking Scheme for Veterans Fencing
    Vers 1 22/5/2016
    Aims and Objective-

    1. Provide a framework to rank veteran fencers for selection purposes.
    2. To raise the standards of the British team.
    3. Encourage veteran fencing.


    Ranking competitions
    The following competions will be used for the scheme-

    1. National championships run as now but with handicap system for each fight as proposed by Duncan, with double values for DE. All fencers competing in the same tableau. Seeding for first round based on National ranking (see below).
    2. National age groups run as present.
    3. Two Nominated Veterans ranking competitions. Using same format as nationals. (a)
    4. Any other veteran competition run on the format of the Nationals (a), provided a minimum entry of (20?).
    5. Any BF Open competition.


    Scoring Scheme
    Each of the veteran competitions a, b, c, d, will score points for all fencers competing based on their position and a value for the strength of the competition. The maximum number of points (that scored by the winner) will be based on the number of points available to the winner of a ‘minor’ open at that weapon and gender, multiplied by a scaling factor. The scaling factor would be-

    1. 1.5
    2. 1
    3. 1
    4. 0.75

    Points scored by fencers below the winner will follow the scheme used by British fencing.

    For Open competitions the number of points will be calculated on the BF standard points scheme, but without the 75% cut off. However the points scored will be capped to those scored by the winner of the age groups at that weapon and gender.

    Selection
    For selection purposes the following would apply-
    40-49 The fencers best 6 results but not more than 3 veteran competition results.
    50-59 The fencers best 5 results but not more than 3 veteran competition results.
    60-69 The fencers best 4 results but not more than 3 veteran competition results.
    70+ The fencers best 3 results.

    National Ranking
    In addition there will be a rolling national ranking based on only veteran competions with the 3 best results within the previous 12 months to count. The winner will be presented with a trophy at the National championships, (possibly with category winners as well?). The national ranking will be used for seeding in veterans competitions.


    Objective 1- This is achieved by having a system based on a number of competitions to provide fencers with a fair and equal opportunity to be selected.

    Objective 2- This will encourage all fencers to fence in the Opens where they will meet better fencers and this should raise the standard.

    Objective 3- by having a National ranking scheme based on veterans competitions, veteran fencers will be encouraged to compete in these rolling competitions and this should increase participation.

    For fencers based outside Europe, any of the competitions listed with exception of the nationals may be replaced by an equivalent competition provided that the Veterans committee approve the competition beforehand and that the fencer concerns provides details of the competition in previous years and the results of the competition. Any fencer using foreign results must compete in the nationals.

    For all teams selected a fencer who has been unable to compete in a number of the selection competitions due to injury etc may apply to the committee for a discretionary place above the last fencer of those qualifying for selection.

  5. #25
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham paul View Post
    [*]National championships run as now but with handicap system for each fight as proposed by Duncan, with double values for DE. All fencers competing in the same tableau. Seeding for first round based on National ranking (see below).
    I do think that this has a big problems.

    The National Championships should be to find the top Veteran fencer and as such this type of advantage for DEs shifts the DEs into a complete lottery.

    A Cat 1 fencer could be number 1 seed and then get the 16th seed who is Cat 3 and so start 4-0 down, however if the 16th seed was a Cat 1 they would start at 0-0, so the number 1 has to rely on luck. Starting any DE in Epee 4-0 down, up to 10 is something that is just unfair later on in an event, when fencers are very capable, whatever their age.

    Non-starter.... Very good for the like of yourself, but manifestly unfair and completely relying on luck of people's age in DEs.

    Have to say such a system is likely to dissuade fencers from entering the Veterans at all..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  6. #26
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham paul View Post
    For selection purposes the following would apply-
    40-49 The fencers best 6 results but not more than 3 veteran competition results.
    50-59 The fencers best 5 results but not more than 3 veteran competition results.
    60-69 The fencers best 4 results but not more than 3 veteran competition results.
    70+ The fencers best 3 results..
    Again it seems that this is dis-advantageous for 40-49 fencers, much better for 60-69 age.

    Those at the younger ages actually probably have less time and finances to attend lots of competitions, with families, work commitments etc.

    To date we have worked from just a single event, possibly shifting to maybe 3 or 4 across the board would be a better option, not 6 which is way too many and would dissuade many younger vets from bothering with trying.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    I do think that this has a big problems.

    The National Championships should be to find the top Veteran fencer and as such this type of advantage for DEs shifts the DEs into a complete lottery.

    ..
    From your perspective I can see why you would not want a handicap system. However I can see advantages of having veteran competitions run as a single competition with some form of handicap advantage for the older fencers. As regards the actual handicap values, I tend to agree that the three weapons are different. We might end up with a lower handicap number for epee and a higher one for sabre. It may also be that 6 competitions is too much for the 40-49 age group.
    Right now I am more concerned with the principles.-
    A single National Championship with some form of handicap.
    An age group championship.
    A veterans competition circuit based von handicapped events..
    Results from Opens to be included in the scheme.

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