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Thread: foil priority

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savin.A View Post

    There are a lot of internationally experienced foil referees in this country. A conversation in person will always be better than one in type - primarily because what's written down can so easily be misconstrued.
    Definitely the best option. The second best is probably watching a lot of World Cup level fencing on YouTube

    Quote Originally Posted by Savin.A View Post
    Incidentally one fantastic internet resource for improving refereeing is the badgermille website where referees vote on calls and you can see how you fare against the overwhelming consensus of the international community.
    The link: https://badgermille.herokuapp.com/splash

    This is a also a very useful resource: http://www.quarte-riposte.com/

    Lots of example of common situations in foil.

  2. #62
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    Hello everyone,

    So, for those who were following the thread I can now report back with some confidence ( I was already positive but just in case I did check again with senior colleagues that nothing has changed ).

    First , the pressing attack has priority all the way ( unless defender breaks distance radically and establishes line ).
    Second , there is no 'attack into preparation' where pressing fencer is looking for blade while moving forward with initiation.. I.e as long as the movement is seamless and blended without stopping then a searching for blade is still being given as attack where there are two lights.

    Some may have been confused by this thread , and thought that the convention of interpretation was shifting .. No , it has not become like sabre.. Nor has it reverted to the classic interpretation of 'looking for the blade'.


    Lastly, and unfortunately, I saw ****** refereeing at wkend ( see previous posts this thread ) and there were two calls that were given incorrectly ( classic pressing attack priority ) and Alex, you managed to record the scores wrong ( you inverted the poule fight giving 5-1 against when it was 5-1 for ). Before signing off the fencer pointed out the mistake to you and somehow of the two poule sheets ( the poule was split between two refs ) the incorrect one found its way to d.t. The fencer had signed it off on the assurance it would be corrected.

    With your FIE exams coming up I strongly suggest you get your game head on.

    I await a deluge of bad vibes , for pointing out what can only be a lapse of concentration on one hand or incompetence on the other.


    The more overarching issue of course is that after a lot of fuss and noise we can establish that frames of reference / parameters as regards foil priority are as above.
    Sorry to write with bit of bad news.
    Kind regards
    Mark
    Last edited by wingnutLP; -14th September 2018 at 08:16. Reason: remove names referenced due to disputed versions of events

  3. #63
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    I saw ****** refereeing at wkend ( see previous posts this thread ) and there were two calls that were given incorrectly
    1) Maybe you should include 'In my opinion'.

    You may think calls were made incorrectly, however that does not in any way mean calls were made incorrectly.

    2) As for scores being on the poule sheet the wrong way around, this can so easily happen. I suspect there is not many active referees who can say in a 12 month period they have not put a score in the wrong way around at some event.

    This is why fencers should only ever sign a score sheet/poule sheet when it is correct. Therefore serious fencer error and good learning opportunity.

    If there is an error a fencer should not sign the sheet until the error has been corrected. (Even if they are given an assurance that it will be changed afterwards).

    If this is one of your fencers, then remember to have a coaching session on when to sign and when not to sign the scoresheet. Sign when correct, do not ever sign it when it is wrong!!!!!
    Last edited by wingnutLP; -14th September 2018 at 08:16. Reason: as above
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

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    1- I am correct. Referee was not within parameters.
    2- you are correct. The fencer has it within their power to refuse to sign , what you recommend has already been delivered. But don't neglect the fact that the fencer spotted the error, informed the ref, and was assured that correct result would go up to DT. ( fencer was naive obviously . Poor reflection on the sport IMO )

    Addendum. The ref need brush up, as any consistent irregularities such as this don't reflect well. Especially in light of aspirations to be FIE certified. Point.

    You can try to turn it round on me cesh but the irregularities remain. It's hard not to feel a bit for the fencer in this scenario
    Thanks
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foilling Around View Post

    We had a refereeing seminar with senior FIE referee Mads Hejrskov at the training camp in Trekanten the week before last. We are still in the situation where forward pressure is very much defining the attack. You have to do something to regain priority. Retreating out of distance and presenting a line which is established at least a step lunge in advance of the attacker would achieve that. But discussing priority on a forum is so messy.

    remarks.
    Hi paul
    I just want to pick up on this , as IMO it needn't be messy at all to discuss priority ( if you have point of orientation ).
    The interpretatation you give above for establishing P.i.L against pressing fencer is akin to sabre.. I would say that this is not the appropriate distance whereby P.i.L can regain the priority for foil as it's reffed currently !
    Pls comment / and or direct me to a single instance ( on youtube ) of a ref giving it so.
    Kind regards
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuzanneVogt View Post
    Plenty. Your comment to ******-"because from your response in the thread it was clear that you not interpreting ref conventions correctly ... " - was out of line and unfounded.

    I agree wholeheartedly with Adrian and suggest that speaking in person with an "active" international referee, current senior international fencer, or international coach is the best approach.
    I also support the suggestions made by Alex regarding other resources or contacting Nickie for references.

    .
    First, I had concerns , they were not out of line...nor as it transpires, unfounded. Moreover, the actual discussion on this thread about reffing priority wasn't really addressed but more obfuscated with a lot of caveats and fluff. It's not that difficult to articulate and debate foil priority in a meaningful and concise manner ( if you know what you are talking about )

    My concern, Adrian & Suzanne, is that for some reading this thread that they may totally misconceived the 'attack window' as you call it. In final analysis Adrian, I would agree with your recommendation that aspiring refs do refer up. Alex could visit the club where I fence for example and brush up his reffing ( I would be happy to buy him a coffee )
    Kind regards
    Mark
    Last edited by wingnutLP; -14th September 2018 at 08:17. Reason: as above

  7. #67
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    Morning all,

    Apologies for the early post, but I have to shortly go and teach some children who frankly show many more signs of intelligence and common sense than some of the adults involved on this thread. Given the complete lack of common sense of some of the boys I teach that really is saying something...

    Anyway.

    Just to establish some credentials, I happen to have an FIE refereeing qualification, albeit in sabre.

    I refereed at the week-end. I almost certainly made at least two mistakes across the week-end. I doubt there is a single person involved in the event who made any less (I include in this fencers, coaches, refs and other event volunteers). Possibly Jon and Francine because they are amazing. But there are only two of them and (sorry Jon) I'm not sure I'd want either of them refereeing everything (although it would get me a free week-end I suppose...).

    Similarly at one point I filled in a DE sheet wrong. I circled the correct numbers on the 1-15 scale, then put the scores the wrong way round, then wrote down the winner's name correctly. This no doubt confused Jon and Francine no end, as they were left wondering when DEs became the best of 3.

    My point is that everyone makes the odd mistake. Gaining an FIE qualification doesn't suddenly become some kind of magic barrier to that happening.

    Where a referee is consistently getting a call wrong, the best course of action is to talk to them calmly after the fight (preferably at least 10-15 minutes afterwards so everyone has had a chance to calm down) and discuss the call: what were they seeing? thinking? It could be a case of different angles, or it could be a difference in interpretation, or it could be that they simply got one wrong.

    I saw a couple of incorrect interpretations at sabre over the week-end. On those occasions I gently had a word with the ref in question, we discussed things and by and large they corrected themselves (or tried to, it is not an easy fix) in future fights. This kind of discussion is best had with a fellow referee because of neutrality and rapport reasons, but it can happen with a coach if done in the right way and the coach knows his stuff (not all coaches do).

    Which is to say I agree with Adrian's point that written vague posts about generalities on the forum are seldom if ever useful, and the best way for someone who is unsure about something is to talk to a senior referee.

    Now re Mark's two points about priority, I have to say that based on my viewing of foil over the week-end he is wrong on both counts, that is to say I saw two people who I would judge to be world class foil referees (FIE GP list) give an attack in preparation in response to a search of the blade. I don't know enough about the subtleties of foil to understand exactly when this would be given and when not, but it is clear based on calls made by two outstanding referees that the situation is not as simplistic as presented here.

    Re the point about the poule sheet I agree entirely with Cesh. It happens not infrequently, and it is entirely the responsibility of the fencer to check. If a fencer signs off a poule sheet without checking, or knowing it to be incorrect then that is daft and completely on them.

    I can recall a conversation I had with a club coach in Poland (challenge Wratislava) who was moaning that their fencer had been done over. It transpired that they had signed without checking the sheet, one of the scores had been entered incorrectly (their fencer had won, but it was entered as a loss), they checked the posted scores and went to DT who called over the other fencer. The other fencer claimed that the score sheet was correct (or that they couldn't remember) and DT told the British fencer to get lost. I had very little (in any) sympathy for the British fencer, or coach, who both learned a valuable lesson.

    Another story involves a British fencer benefiting, signing off on a score they knew to be incorrect and then watching as their opponent also signed without checking. This enabled the fencer to make the cut (and the other fencer to miss it as things turned out).

    Basically if your fencer signs something which isn't correct... their fault. Use it as a coaching opportunity.

    Now that that's dealt with the substance I have one final point to make.

    Your post Mark comes across as borderline harassment. You have singled out personally one particular and launched what can only be described as an attack on their competency. I find the tone of your post frankly disgraceful and the way you are attacking someone who whatever their faults may be gives an incredible amount to this sport, for very little in return.

    No doubt you will claim you are trying to help, but that simply isn't how it comes across.

    If people really do think their is still an issue with refereeing in this country (there certainly are still improvements to be made) then I look forward to them coming up with constructive solutions. Even better establish and run your own refereeing development program, and turn up next year with a number of highly able referees to fix the problem. If it is so easy this shouldn't be difficult.

    In sabre we had what I thought was a very productive dialogue and some plans to move on in the future. Anyone who wants to get involved is very welcome to get in touch.

    Be constructive.

    Thanks.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post



    ... , you managed to record the scores wrong ( you inverted the poule fight giving 5-1 against when it was 5-1 for ). Before signing off the fencer pointed out the mistake to you and somehow of the two poule sheets ( the poule was split between two refs ) the incorrect one found its way to d.t. The fencer had signed it off on the assurance it would be corrected.

    I wouldn't pretend to have any value to add about the rights and wrongs of foil refereeing, but I do run a DT and this is just incorrect.

    There was only one poule sheet. The score written in the poule sheet matched the score written by the fight at the bottom of the sheet. Both fencers had signed and I find it incredibly hard to believe that either of the very experienced referees on that poule said that your fencer should sign it anyway and it would be changed on the way up to DT. Indeed, when the issue was raised, the fencer (and a gaggle of their friends crowding out my office) pointed out that they only noticed the mistake when the results were displayed.

    I don't mind you being misinformed or disagreeing with the way the best referees in the country referee. I do mind out and out lies which undermine the integrity of our refs and our competition.

    I'm not sure whether this is caused by a cloudy memory, delusion, or some bizarre vendetta against a particular referee, but I suggest you think very carefully before your next post on this website.
    Last edited by wingnutLP; -14th September 2018 at 08:18. Reason: as above

  9. #69
    fixing broken stuff! wingnutLP's Avatar
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    Having talked to various people the events attributed to a previously named individual are in question (he said she said, no evidence) hence names have been redacted.

    Play nicely children

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    Thanks to you Mike Sellig.

    I am not a very confident ref. and when I see a post like Plenty's, it makes me doubt my understanding of what Foil fencing is about. If an attacker is pressing and makes an attack on the blade, or attempts an engagement, and misses; the skill of the defending fencer, in causing the miss, should be rewarded with priority and the chance to attack. That seems really fair and sensible to me. Also, a well experienced and recognised referee told me so.

    But even that kind of statement is also unhelpful when trying to establish in your own mind how to interpret the rules in relation to who did what.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Hello everyone,

    So, for those who were following the thread I can now report back with some confidence ( I was already positive but just in case I did check again with senior colleagues that nothing has changed ).

    First , the pressing attack has priority all the way ( unless defender breaks distance radically and establishes line ).
    Second , there is no 'attack into preparation' where pressing fencer is looking for blade while moving forward with initiation.. I.e as long as the movement is seamless and blended without stopping then a searching for blade is still being given as attack where there are two lights.

    Some may have been confused by this thread , and thought that the convention of interpretation was shifting .. No , it has not become like sabre.. Nor has it reverted to the classic interpretation of 'looking for the blade'.


    Lastly, and unfortunately, I saw ****** refereeing at wkend ( see previous posts this thread ) and there were two calls that were given incorrectly ( classic pressing attack priority ) and Alex, you managed to record the scores wrong ( you inverted the poule fight giving 5-1 against when it was 5-1 for ). Before signing off the fencer pointed out the mistake to you and somehow of the two poule sheets ( the poule was split between two refs ) the incorrect one found its way to d.t. The fencer had signed it off on the assurance it would be corrected.

    With your FIE exams coming up I strongly suggest you get your game head on.

    I await a deluge of bad vibes , for pointing out what can only be a lapse of concentration on one hand or incompetence on the other.


    The more overarching issue of course is that after a lot of fuss and noise we can establish that frames of reference / parameters as regards foil priority are as above.
    Sorry to write with bit of bad news.
    Kind regards
    Mark
    This is coming across as spiteful, vindictive, and bordering on harrassment. Stop it.
    Advocate extraordinaire to Beelzebub.

  12. #72

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    Dear plenty,

    It is good to see you have a strong opinion on our referee cadre and our potential FIE referees. I appreciate the lengths you are going to in order to better refereeing in Britain. With this in mind I hope you will be able to join us at the next BF event. I am sure that spending a weekend volunteering, for little thanks, and indeed even frequent criticism from coaches, will not dampen your spirit. I ascertain from your posts, and the way you criticise others, that you never make mistakes. It would therefore be a great opportunity from the rest of the British referees to learn from you. I know this will involve you giving up your free time on a weekend for no reimbursement of the time lost, however, all the coaches will be very understanding of this, and treat you with nothing but respect for the duration of the event, and even on social media platforms afterwards. I look forward to seeing you as part of the referee cadre in the future.


    Adrian

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Speakman View Post
    Dear plenty,

    It is good to see you have a strong opinion on our referee cadre and our potential FIE referees. I appreciate the lengths you are going to in order to better refereeing in Britain. With this in mind I hope you will be able to join us at the next BF event. I am sure that spending a weekend volunteering, for little thanks, and indeed even frequent criticism from coaches, will not dampen your spirit. I ascertain from your posts, and the way you criticise others, that you never make mistakes. It would therefore be a great opportunity from the rest of the British referees to learn from you. I know this will involve you giving up your free time on a weekend for no reimbursement of the time lost, however, all the coaches will be very understanding of this, and treat you with nothing but respect for the duration of the event, and even on social media platforms afterwards. I look forward to seeing you as part of the referee cadre in the future.


    Adrian
    This is far and away my favourite post on the forum this year

    Savvy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackSparrow View Post
    This is far and away my favourite post on the forum this year

    Yes, it made me laugh too but I am too busy volunteering and giving up my time coaching at tournaments ( only to be robbed of points by 'developing' referees ) , as well as occasionally trying to give some guidance and foster productive debate on the forum ( I don't charge for this either ).



    In answer to Adrian though; yes I would referee far sounder than most... But no doubt everyone would disagree with my calls as I seem to come from a planet where fencing is quite different.



    Last, would it be too much to ask that the core subject of the debate ( attack into prep ) , actually be discussed. If there is anyone confident enough to do so ?
    Frankly if the milk tastes sour am not the kind of pussy to drink it.

    Kind regards
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frence. View Post
    I wouldn't pretend to have any value to add about the rights and wrongs of foil refereeing, but I do run a DT and this is just incorrect.

    There was only one poule sheet. The score written in the poule sheet matched the score written by the fight at the bottom of the sheet. Both fencers had signed and I find it incredibly hard to believe that either of the very experienced referees on that poule said that your fencer should sign it anyway and it would be changed on the way up to DT. Indeed, when the issue was raised, the fencer (and a gaggle of their friends crowding out my office) pointed out that they only noticed the mistake when the results were displayed.

    I don't mind you being misinformed or disagreeing with the way the best referees in the country referee. I do mind out and out lies which undermine the integrity of our refs and our competition.

    I'm not sure whether this is caused by a cloudy memory, delusion, or some bizarre vendetta against a particular referee, but I suggest you think very carefully before your next post on this website.
    Francine,

    I resent the way you represent this.

    First, there was no gaggle of friends in DT. Just the coach , the fencer, and parent plus one of the refs. Making a representation. As is in order.

    Second , down at the poule, there were two poule sheets ! As the poule had been split. My fencer had spotted the mistake on one of the poule sheets.

    Third there is no personal vendetta, nor am I harassing anyone - that is itself a serious accusation. It is simply an instance of a coach representing the fencer-- as far as it extends to the forum, then within the reference of this thread ( which had already caused me to doubt the refs ability to interpret priority correctly ) it follows naturally that the refs errors on the day serve to illustrate the point.

    Fourth, I have taken care to always keep myself informed about current reffing trends at FIE level.

    Lastly to call me a liar is absolutely disgraceful. The competition was run excellently. The ref was in general ok ( apart from about six calls on priority ( of which two were totally off the reservation ) and of course apart from making a pigs ear of the results... In a way I am doing him a favour as if this were to happen at FIE level, it would reflect very poorly.

    You have misrepresented my complaint and it reflects badly on you too I am sorry to say.
    I would be more than happy to ask my solicitors to send a letter should you insist on stating I am a liar, I should also advise we did have video and would be able to provide witness statements. If this is the only thing that will stop this ridiculousness then that's what I will do ( which goes for anyone else who makes any actionable statements ).


    Kind regards
    Mark Kent.

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    Dear mike,
    I agree with all of your post bar a few points.
    Alex is a good ref in general. But he still doesn't understand priority profoundly.

    Of course refs make mistakes , no one can watch the piste like a hawk all day ( of course their eye may be distracted momentarily )sometimes therefor they will miss who initiated.

    I fully respect and support referees and volunteers, without whom everything would stop... They are the backbone of our sport.

    This does however somewhat conflate the argument.
    As I have said a hundred times, just because someone is volunteering ( or a principal part of a group of organisers ) , it doesn't mean they can't be called to account -- this is doubly so where the degree of cognitive dissonance prohibits any type of constructive dialogue.

    I would like to hear yours and Alex's and Adrian's responses on the actual original subject of foil priority.. And some response to questions.
    Kind regards
    Mark

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    A) only to be robbed of points by 'developing' referees ....

    B) In answer to Adrian though; yes I would referee far sounder than most...


    Kind regards
    Mark
    Dear Mark,

    I first draw your attention to point A. I set out a rather formal invitation to you and therefore read your answer in that manner. It is therefore with utter disgust I view the use of the word 'robbed'. If you have any evidence that a robbery has taken place then you should report it to the police. If there is evidence that this was a malicious or vindictive action that had intent behind it; report it to British fencing. If, as I suspect is the case, you are merely using this term yourself in a vindictive and wholly incorrect manner, you should go and speak to the lawyer you threatened Francine with. I am sure he would be only to happy to represent you in a defamation case should the need arise.

    As for point B. Evidently, despite the poor grammar, you can not as you declined the invitation to referee at all. Hypotheticals are a waste of everyone's time.


    Edit:
    As for a response to foil priority. I feel I have already clearly stated that I am not going to comment on text of a hypothetical action without witnessing the action myself.

    Adrian

  18. #78
    Senior Member Jon Willis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Francine,

    I resent the way you represent this.

    First, there was no gaggle of friends in DT. Just the coach , the fencer, and parent plus one of the refs. Making a representation. As is in order.

    Second , down at the poule, there were two poule sheets ! As the poule had been split. My fencer had spotted the mistake on one of the poule sheets.
    Mark, please stop now.

    I was the DT with Francine when 4 girls came in DT after the time allowed to question results had passed.

    There was only 1 poule sheet, I printed JWF poules out personally and still have it in my Leon Paul office. The score is written the same way in 2 places, in the grid and next to the names on the bout order.

    The poule sheet is signed by the fencer.

    I will not have you make attacks on my referees, members of DT or volunteers.

    Your fencer should not have signed a result if she thought it was wrong, as a coach you know this so instead of trying to blame others and making up stories to justify your fencers error. Educate them so this doesn't happen again.

    Should you continue with your current manner on this thread you will not be welcome at any event or in any building I am responsible for.

  19. #79

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    This thread is getting as spicy as a Bombay Bad Boy pot noodle.

    Thanks for at least 20 mins of solid entertainment on this everyone.

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    Oh my gosh,
    What a cluster

    Jon, I am sorry. I didn't realise four girls had come up ! I arrived after they'd left ( obviously I couldn't have known this ). I just thought it was the fencer ( when I arrived ).

    After the event back at the club , when I gave her the coaching talk about signing off... It was only then that I learnt she had told the ref of the mistake on the sheet BEFORE the sheet went up. This I maintain.. If I had known at the time I would have asked you to call both refs in and I would have made more of a fuss. Obviously she was inarticulate in front of authority at the time.

    I am already unwelcome , so I couldn't give a fig about that.

    I remembered a few salient facts just now that may chill things a bit ---

    First I bought Alex and volunteers a bottle of wine at EYC a couple of years ago as a Thankyou !
    And ( having not actually met him ) didn't even realise until mon this week that he was the ref who'd fluffed things at the wkend !


    I think you competition organisers and refs ( whilst closing ranks ) should take it on the chin where you get it wrong.

    Furthermore, if the original subject of this thread had actually been debated more thoroughly , then perversely , perhaps refereeing would be of a better standard ( instead of all these eminent refs coming up with a lot of flannel ).
    I am consistently trolled on this forum, rarely does the actual subject get discussed.

    So, Jon, unless you've something to say on priority ?
    Kind regards
    Mark

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