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Thread: foil priority

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabeares View Post
    Potentially, but I think any person deserves more respect than was shown there. Were it the first time, I may agree with you, but Mark has disrespected many people on here many times. It's not good enough, and not acceptable
    Fair play. If heís a bellend 24/7 let him have it.

  2. #42
    ***** Legend hokers's Avatar
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    http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/pr...?do=ignorelist

    It's way easier to just put them on ignore.
    ďLive a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.Ē

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokers View Post
    http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/pr...?do=ignorelist

    It's way easier to just put them on ignore.
    Or you could stop being Snowflakes and grow a pair!
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
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  4. #44
    ***** Legend hokers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander View Post
    Or you could stop being Snowflakes and grow a pair!
    Another one joins the list!

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander View Post
    Or you could stop being Snowflakes and grow a pair!
    To be fair if you block half of the very limited number of people on the forum then it will probably diminish your ability to follow many of the threads.

    I can see the merit in blocking trolls or individuals who use harassment, abuse or intimidation but ignoring people just because you donít like their opinion or their tone defeats the purpose of a forum donít you think?

  6. #46
    Paul Sibert Foilling Around's Avatar
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    Anyone using the Snowflake term loses respect instantly - a really lazy insult. Sorry highlander

    We had a refereeing seminar with senior FIE referee Mads Hejrskov at the training camp in Trekanten the week before last. We are still in the situation where forward pressure is very much defining the attack. You have to do something to regain priority. Retreating out of distance and presenting a line which is established at least a step lunge in advance of the attacker would achieve that. But discussing priority on a forum is so messy.

    Please also remember that these conversations don't exist in a vacuum. Some people have form for refusing to accept views those with a lot more experience.

    Savin and I have had this experience over university fencing and basically been told our views were rubbish when we point out the weaknesses in the way 'a certain person' wants to change BUCS fencing. So some people are not given the same leeway as others when they make certain remarks.
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  7. #47

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    Dear future/developing foil referees. Please do not let any of the discussions on this forum affect the way you interpret foil. There is a strong referee cadre for foil starting to develop at the top level. If you have doubts about an action, have a quiet word with an active international referee, top international fencer, or a senior international coach. Threads like this full of speculation and inaccuracies will not improve your refereeing nor the standard of fencing in this country.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Speakman View Post
    Dear future/developing foil referees. Please do not let any of the discussions on this forum affect the way you interpret foil. There is a strong referee cadre for foil starting to develop at the top level. If you have doubts about an action, have a quiet word with an active international referee, top international fencer, or a senior international coach. Threads like this full of speculation and inaccuracies will not improve your refereeing nor the standard of fencing in this country.
    Dear Adrian.

    Thanks so much for your input. Please could you direct our aspiring competent club foil referee to his nearest international referee so that they may bask in their glorious qualified knowledge and that they may tell him (in not so many words), exactly what the members of the forum have told them here.

    Might I add that the forum does include in its membership a fair few experienced international fencers.

    But please, we do apologise for having such Ďabove our stationí thoughts that we could advise a fellow fencer without first consulting the British fencing association referee steering committee.

    Jog on.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Speakman View Post
    Dear future/developing foil referees. Please do not let any of the discussions on this forum affect the way you interpret foil. There is a strong referee cadre for foil starting to develop at the top level. If you have doubts about an action, have a quiet word with an active international referee, top international fencer, or a senior international coach. Threads like this full of speculation and inaccuracies will not improve your refereeing nor the standard of fencing in this country.
    Or ask the question on this forum to an active international referee so we can all learn at once.

    Thanks to Paul for his explanation of his understanding of the priority.

    Itís clearer for me now.



    Jeff
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
    Winston Churchill

  10. #50
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    Red face

    [QUOTE=Foilling Around;323129]Anyone using the Snowflake term loses respect instantly - a really lazy insult. Sorry highlander

    No need to be sorry Paul
    I donít agree with you as I think itís appropriate.
    But you as anyone are entitled to call it as you see it with me.
    Itís a shame others canít take debate an occasional labelling as opinion.

    Elinor Roosevelt once said.

    No one can belittle you without your consent.

    Jeff
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
    Winston Churchill

  11. #51

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    *breathes deeply and tries not to lose temper*

    There are a lot of internationally experienced foil referees in this country. A conversation in person will always be better than one in type - primarily because what's written down can so easily be misconstrued. Also, a lot of what is said about priority on this forum is frequently a case of reductio ad absurdum: oversimplified to the point of being incorrect. This is because it's impossible to discuss hypotheticals. The most fruitful discussions of how to referee on this website have been ones where a video is posted and the open question "how do you justify calling for x" is posed. Just saying "Fencer A does x, Fencer B does y - whose point is it?" is too simplistic and assumes that the action happens in a system isolated from reality.

    I don't think that internet forums are the appropriate arena for discussing issues of priority for two main reasons. The first is the ease with which text can be poorly written and/or read. The second is that in pseudo-anonymised venue such as this, how can you accurately identify the expertise of the person offering their view? In refereeing, not everyone's view is valid. The opinion of an FIE-qualified referee on the Grand Prix list bears much more weight than a national-level fencer or coach with no refereeing qualification whatsoever. There is no doubt that discussion and education are important but the reason that right the way up to FIE level that refereeing seminars are given in person is so that you know you are receiving information from a credible source and that any misconceptions can be corrected in person.

    Incidentally one fantastic internet resource for improving refereeing is the badgermille website where referees vote on calls and you can see how you fare against the overwhelming consensus of the international community.


    Finally: Don't tell a person with a perfectly legitimate suggestion to jog on. It's rude. Also don't say things which are frankly untrue - e.g. I am not a subcontractor for anyone (if I could just add fake job titles to my CV it would read something like "Alex Savin, Master of the Universe, Destroyer of Worlds, and Intolerant of BS")


    Actual last point: if you want a recommendation for a local-ish referee mentor or even a remote mentor, email Nickie Bailey at BF and she'll happily recommend someone to you.

  12. #52
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    Thankyou for your considered ( all ) response

    As per usual instead of engaging with the knotty issue to do with fencing , every time I speak truth to power , the same sad thing happens.
    Negative rep, blacklisting, personal messages of abuse in my inbox ,

    If one has the temerity to challenge someone they shouldn't have to deal with this ! I have never crossed the line of being personal or abusive... Taken the mick perhaps..

    Far worse things are said by the ones who are part of 'the club' and is got away with.

    if you are wrong be big enough to admit it !
    Personally I don't give a Fig for my popularity here - just for reasoned debate, useful observations, and constructive criticism.
    Stroll on the day when anonymity is no longer permitted !

    I suppose this thread is dead now which is a shame. Luckily it exists in another form on the foil section so pls do post any intelligible contributions or observations there.
    Cheers
    M

  13. #53
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    Mark Kent the fencing school

    Some little known facts

    1- I fence twice a week ( and sometimes win ) , the lansdowne has four ex Olympians and consistently forms nearly the entire men's foil team for vets world and euro championships

    2- I was taught to fence by Ziemek and had at least two lessons per week from him for 14 years, and for most part fenced 4 times a week, also Epee w. S.paul and ziemek.

    3- I have worked in clubs in Rome and Budapest for months at a time

    4- We have introduced more than a thousand people to fencing

    5- every single cadet fencer I have trained has reached top ten in nationals / national selections by age seventeen.. Currently in girls foil a third of the top ten in u.14 started with me ... In u13 our girl fencers are nearly 15% of the entire england ranking list

    6- we have just started project 2028 , joining our uni groups and small cadet group to make platform for seniors ( traditionally we only used to do u.15 ) then send them on to senior clubs.

    7- coached full time since 2006 - diploma from fie faculty budapest 2003 - postgrad certificate 2007 ( in fencing ) commendation of excellence from coach of FIE coaches committee - first organiser of ziemek coaching clinics.

    8- we are non for profit club

    9- prize for polity and tact on fencing forum

    10- reputation for being open and friendly ( to those who are averse to anonymous hacks ) and for calling things as they are

    11- GB coach seniors women's squad ( well, not yet , at least hope to ) , reformer of bucs fencing ( never in a month of Wednesdays ) , BFA coach educator ( again some day )

    I hope that this may allay some of concerns re suitability to comment on topics -- I do try to keep up with most current developments, and do get a bit frustrated when posts aren't read through properly. Above all I do think the forum posters ( some ) could be a bit more professional / considered. Please.
    Thankyou

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackSparrow View Post
    True ...but Alex Savin is a very good ref.

    Mark, they discuss the situation you describe on this thread:
    https://www.fencing.net/forums/threa...n-line.141981/

    It's a different situation to the original post in this thread.
    Hi J,
    Ok cool. I think he just misread, or I didn't express it well.
    Trust is restored ,
    Thankyou for link

    ( thread dead )
    Pls look on foil section , thread headed reverse shoulder rule,
    Kind regards
    Mark

  15. #55

    Default My 2 cents

    Plenty,
    Perhaps if you approached some of your comments without derisiveness you would be met with more pleasantries in the replies. Your comment to Savin-"because from your response in the thread it was clear that you not interpreting ref conventions correctly ... " - was out of line and unfounded.
    Because, having read through this thread several times, I am repeatedly dumbfounded by your comment that -
    "i.e if the ref feels it is an attack into preparation when there is double light then they are very probably wrong..".
    I cannot fathom how one such as yourself, with this presented long list of credentials that you post, can make this observation? As Sabeares stated, your statement is 'incorrect'.
    Attacks into preparation in sabre can and do happen with both lights.( And, yes, you did reference sabre in your foil argument which, since they are two different weapons, is another error of itself). Though similar, they do have different timings and different nuances relating to the ' attack window'. Though different, foil, too, can have both lights on with an attack in preparation. Again, hard to imagine anyone with such experience as yours making such a broad generalized statement in either case. Every action is unique to that moment in time.
    I agree wholeheartedly with Adrian and suggest that speaking in person with an "active" international referee, current senior international fencer, or international coach is the best approach.
    I also support the suggestions made by Alex regarding other resources or contacting Nickie for references.

    And FencingMove,
    Your comments show your inability to be in polite conversation. "Jog on"? Really? Enough said.
    Last edited by SuzanneVogt; -22nd August 2018 at 20:14.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuzanneVogt View Post
    Plenty,
    Perhaps if you approached some of your comments without derisiveness you would be met with more pleasantries in the replies. Your comment to Savin-"because from your response in the thread it was clear that you not interpreting ref conventions correctly ... " - was out of line and unfounded.
    Because, having read through this thread several times, I am repeatedly dumbfounded by your comment that -
    "i.e if the ref feels it is an attack into preparation when there is double light then they are very probably wrong..".
    I cannot fathom how one such as yourself, with this presented long list of credentials that you post, can make this observation? As Sabeares stated, your statement is 'incorrect'.
    Attacks into preparation in sabre can and do happen with both lights.( And, yes, you did reference sabre in your foil argument which, since they are two different weapons, is another error of itself). Though similar, they do have different timings and different nuances relating to the ' attack window'. Though different, foil, too, can have both lights on with an attack in preparation. Again, hard to imagine anyone with such experience as yours making such a broad generalized statement in either case. Every action is unique to that moment in time.
    I agree wholeheartedly with Adrian and suggest that speaking in person with an "active" international referee, current senior international fencer, or international coach is the best approach.
    I also support the suggestions made by Alex regarding other resources or contacting Nickie for references.

    And FencingMove,
    Your comments show your inability to be in polite conversation. "Jog on"? Really? Enough said.
    I had witnessed so much pettiness it looks like I succumbed to it. Apologies for the Ďjog oní but take the forum at face value. Itís a forum, there will be debate, people will be wrong, they are all the time thatís life.

  17. #57
    Senior Member ChrisL's Avatar
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    In answer to where you find referees above, Championship events (Cadet and Junior Nationals, Senior Nationals, BYCs etc.) are usually a good bet.

    Mark the conversation has devolved a little from your original question but if you are genuinely interested in learning I might suggest you attend one of the larger events (many referees can't always make it to the smaller age group events I know you tend to be mainly at) and have a conversation with someone in person which I'm sure will answer your questions much clearer.

    I will be at the Cadet and Junior nationals in a few weeks where the new Level 3 Refereeing exam syllabus will also be running and would be happy to speak to you as I'm sure many others there would be.

    The problem with trying to explain calls to people on the internet is that quite often the misconceptions that result in them coming to incorrect conclusions are myriad and not immediately clear in a limited post. Addressing a point verbally is nearly always superior.

  18. #58
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Above all I do think the forum posters ( some ) could be a bit more professional / considered.
    Really good idea to take your own advice occasionally..

    I always enjoy it when you post, as I know you will rub someone up the wrong way..

    As for listing your 'achievements', there are many on this forum with a reputation for great things within fencing. Anyone can write a list of what their fencers/past fencers have done, let alone people who have 'attended' their club.

    Whether you have coached for 6 months or 25+ years, coached fencers to 0 or 20 + British titles, coached 0 or 100+ GB Internationals at various age-groups, personally coached for Euro/World medals or not, been a club fencer or full GB world Championship fencer yourself, if you rub people up the wrong way, your opinion will be negatively hit, even if very occasionally you do make a valid point..

    Anyway off topic.

    When it comes to Refereeing, Mr Savin is one of the most up to date knowledgeable referees I have come across. I would certainly follow his advice on Foil over any coach (even an international one). Essentially it does not matter what a coach thinks, it is the referee that makes the call.

    As for foil refereeing, I rarely come across a fight where I am not confused by calls, but this is why I escaped the weapon almost 30 years ago to the security of Epee, where a referee can make you lose a couple of hits in a fight to 15, but not the 10-12 which can be switched in foil, if you do not fence to your referee.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  19. #59
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    5- every single cadet fencer I have trained has reached top ten in nationals / national selections by age seventeen..
    This is quite a claim as a cadet fencer is a fencer from the age of 11 to 17. So every fencer you have coached, has reached this standard? Have you not had a single 11 year old drop out of the sport. That is very impressive..

    If that is the case you will need to speak to Georgina Usher urgently about how you manage to keep every single fencer within the sport and to that standard, as retention is one of the big things for any sport.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  20. #60
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    Nice to see Adrian and Suzanne joining the forum. It might be worth reading it again more regularly.
    Advocate extraordinaire to Beelzebub.

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