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Thread: Selection for Junior World Fencing Championships

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranna's Father View Post
    Stat correction:

    Luxembourg - 6 JME in the 64
    Riga - 1
    Espoo - 1
    Junior Euros - 3

    If you are going to use stats RV you really should check before pressing send.

    I can only suggest that if you fail to put fuel in a car eventually it will slow down & stop but I am still hoping that things might become sunnier and if not they are a very talented young group that will work together for 2-3 years. Who knows what may happen when they are run properly and positively with enouragement and help abroad as the other weapons continue to have.
    Apologies I did not see the Luxembourg result, but the tournament was quite small with just 77 entries. Reaching last 64 may not have been considered a strong enough result. The European Championships would not
    have been considered as they took place after selection date for World Championships.

    Apart from this I acknowledged previously that mens epee has not competed on a level playing field with other weapons, but the selection rules were set at start of this season by PD and her decision will not be reversed by CEO or Board.

    Next season I am sure all weapons will be treated on a level playing field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    Apologies I did not see the Luxembourg result, but the tournament was quite small with just 77 entries. Reaching last 64 may not have been considered a strong enough result. The European Championships would not
    have been considered as they took place after selection date for World Championships.

    Apart from this I acknowledged previously that mens epee has not competed on a level playing field with other weapons, but the selection rules were set at start of this season by PD and her decision will not be reversed by CEO or Board.

    Next season I am sure all weapons will be treated on a level playing field.
    Correction the 77 applied to NIF and not entry in Luxembourg which was very low compared with other World cups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    Apart from this I acknowledged previously that mens epee has not competed on a level playing field with other weapons, but ...
    ...lets put that right with another generation of fencers.

    NOTHING has changed. Same old.

    Treat em mean....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    the selection rules were set at start of this season by PD and her decision will not be reversed by CEO or Board.
    I'd suggest giving an individual that level of control is something that needs reviewing ASAP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danKew View Post
    I'd suggest giving an individual that level of control is something that needs reviewing ASAP.
    I don't disagree with that statement. I have never been personally a fan of this woman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    .......... The European Championships would not
    have been considered as they took place after selection date for World Championships.

    Apart from this I acknowledged previously that mens epee has not competed on a level playing field with other weapons, but the selection rules were set at start of this season by PD and her decision will not be reversed by CEO or Board.

    Next season I am sure all weapons will be treated on a level playing field.
    I still struggle Ronald to understand how a fencers performance at the Europeans cannot be considered relevant to the selection process for the Worlds, as this is the peak time for the fencer to perform. Unfortunately we have a selection process, set as you say by our 'performance expert', that allows a good result at the previous seasons Europeans and Worlds to drive the whole of the next year's selections, without the need to deliver great results in that specific year. Which is exactly the argument being used for not sending JME to the worlds because their results this season aren't 'good enough'.

    In JME we effectively lost our 1997 fencers because of the constant change of selection rules. And now we might lose our 1998 fencers who are seeing a different approach playing out compared to others in the sport. Our only saving grace has been the enthusiastic way folk have stepped in to rescue Epee from perceived BF neglect and of course the imminent departure of the PD - who we can see either doesn't understand or doesn't like Epee.

    Still time to sort this year BF .......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    I still struggle Ronald to understand how a fencers performance at the Europeans cannot be considered relevant to the selection process for the Worlds, as this is the peak time for the fencer to perform. Unfortunately we have a selection process, set as you say by our 'performance expert', that allows a good result at the previous seasons Europeans and Worlds to drive the whole of the next year's selections, without the need to deliver great results in that specific year. Which is exactly the argument being used for not sending JME to the worlds because their results this season aren't 'good enough'.

    In JME we effectively lost our 1997 fencers because of the constant change of selection rules. And now we might lose our 1998 fencers who are seeing a different approach playing out compared to others in the sport. Our only saving grace has been the enthusiastic way folk have stepped in to rescue Epee from perceived BF neglect and of course the imminent departure of the PD - who we can see either doesn't understand or doesn't like Epee.

    Still time to sort this year BF .......

    Selection for World Junior Championships have ALWAYS been made after completion of nominated tournaments
    programme and BEFORE European Championships.

    This is not something new. It existed when my daughter competed for Britain in the 1990s.

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    ***** Legend hokers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    Actually:
    One fencer selected for Worlds - 1 x 32 and 3 x 64
    Not selected - 1 x 16, 1 x 32
    Not selected - 1 x 32, 1 x 64
    Not selected - 1 x 32
    Not selected - 1 x 32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    Of course in contrast, BF have spotted the talent in JWE selecting three fencers:

    By right: 2 x L16 (incl Euros), 1 x L32
    Discretion: 1 x L64 (but a great Cadet season)
    Discretion: 1 x L64 in last year's Worlds.

    You have to love consistency of decision making.
    THIS is exactly why I bang on about discretionary selection being a bad thing. Without the transparency, so there's no doubt why some were selected over others, people get so angry at the perceived unfairness that they quit the sport.

    Even if the decisions are not that unreasonable (e.g. if all those L32s were from a small entry competition) the perception is such that it seems like some fencers are being treated unfairly

    I have less objection to using discretion to select the 3rd/4th places on a team, or to compensate for injury/exams preventing entry, or low entry or walkover victory, this is where it is sometimes needed.
    But the idea that you set the bar really high and then choose anyone you like that doesn't make it, with no right to appeal is a real problem that the new order will have to address.

    I said it when this selection policy was released in July, this is horrible. http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/sh...645#post313645

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokers View Post
    THIS is exactly why I bang on about discretionary selection being a bad thing. Without the transparency, so there's no doubt why some were selected over others, people get so angry at the perceived unfairness that they quit the sport.

    Even if the decisions are not that unreasonable (e.g. if all those L32s were from a small entry competition) the perception is such that it seems like some fencers are being treated unfairly

    I have less objection to using discretion to select the 3rd/4th places on a team, or to compensate for injury/exams preventing entry, or low entry or walkover victory, this is where it is sometimes needed.
    But the idea that you set the bar really high and then choose anyone you like that doesn't make it, with no right to appeal is a real problem that the new order will have to address.

    I said it when this selection policy was released in July, this is horrible. http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/sh...645#post313645
    The original selection policy was much fairer than what is in place now.

    There was of course an element of discretion.

    The original selections from memory were that the first 2 in rankings were automatically selected if they achieved the qualification standard. When my daughter competed Juniors [U20] needed minimum of 2 x L64 or
    1 x L32.

    The third place for individuals and team was at discretion of the selectors provided that third and fourth places
    in rankings both qualified and their results were within a percentile difference. For the record only 3 fencers
    were selected for Worlds in both individual and team events, although a reserve usually from cadets would be
    nominated as a reserve.

    I think that the discretion was only ever applied if their was an outstanding cadet or first or second year junior
    preferred to third year junior or someone had missed competitions due to injury or illness.

  10. #70
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    Discretionary selection does not mean not trying! If Ron can swap daughter stories then so can I!

    Belfast Worlds, my daughter did not meet the qualifying criteria and was not selected. She was determined not to appeal as she had been set a target and missed it. She only agreed because otherwise her two friends who had qualified would not get to fence in the team event. As it turned out, she had the highest finishing place in the individuals.

    It made her even more determined to qualify by right for Azerbaijan the following year so she didn't feel like a fraud.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foilling Around View Post
    Discretionary selection does not mean not trying! If Ron can swap daughter stories then so can I!

    Belfast Worlds, my daughter did not meet the qualifying criteria and was not selected. She was determined not to appeal as she had been set a target and missed it. She only agreed because otherwise her two friends who had qualified would not get to fence in the team event. As it turned out, she had the highest finishing place in the individuals.

    It made her even more determined to qualify by right for Azerbaijan the following year so she didn't feel like a fraud.
    I don't understand what you are suggesting.

    No fencer was ever selected for World Championships if they failed to achieve minimum qualification standard.
    Finishing in top 3 of British Rankings was not qualification for selection.

    The only circumstances where discretion might have applied were those which I suggested in my last post i.e.
    where Selectors chose a fencer ranked fourth ahead of one third for stated reasons and perhaps in exceptional circumstances where a top fencer missed part of a season through injury or ill health.

    The main point is that there were far more fencers qualifying in all six weapons than is the case today. The
    system devised by PD and backed by so called no compromise by UK Sport has been disastrous for sport.

    I do not recall anytime in the last 20 years that we could see a situation where so few Juniors have "qualified"
    for this year's World Championships. When you look at current senior rankings it seems likely that only Richard Kruse and maybe James Davies will qualify for World Senior Championships this summer without application of discretion.

  12. #72
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    Sorry Ron, slight confusion.

    The comment was aimed at the poster earlier on who said that allowing a person who did not reach a qualifying criteria to attend a championships would mean that people would not try so hard and just be content to be "the best in Britian" even in that was poor by world standards.

    Secondly, by mentioning Belfast and Azerbaijan, I though I was clear that I was referring to Junior Worlds, but obviously not as you thought I meant Senior Worlds

    Thirdly, you are obviously and rightly proud of your daughter's time fencing, so I was merely 'asserting my right' to also use my daughter as an example!

    Summary - I was not getting at you at all on this occasion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foilling Around View Post
    Sorry Ron, slight confusion.

    The comment was aimed at the poster earlier on who said that allowing a person who did not reach a qualifying criteria to attend a championships would mean that people would not try so hard and just be content to be "the best in Britian" even in that was poor by world standards.

    Secondly, by mentioning Belfast and Azerbaijan, I though I was clear that I was referring to Junior Worlds, but obviously not as you thought I meant Senior Worlds

    Thirdly, you are obviously and rightly proud of your daughter's time fencing, so I was merely 'asserting my right' to also use my daughter as an example!

    Summary - I was not getting at you at all on this occasion.
    Paul I did not take the point personally, but was actually concurring with what you have just posted.

    It is shocking that only 7 juniors have qualified for this year's World Junior Championships and the results in
    last three years if you exclude Mens Foil Team's unexpected bronze last year were pretty poor.

    As I wrote it would seem that only Richard Kruse is likely to achieve the qualification standard in World Championships unless as most expect James manages a last 8 result in more than one of the remaining World Cups or Grand Prix.

    That should be sending out a clear message that the International Programme has been poorly run over past
    6 years.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    When you look at current senior rankings it seems likely that only Richard Kruse and maybe James Davies will qualify for World Senior Championships this summer without application of discretion.
    For Euros:
    RK qualified
    JH needs L32 in Seoul
    JD needs L8 in Long Beach
    Aliya not entered Yangzhou, would need L16 from Seoul
    MFT are qualified with WR 9th with no comps remaining.
    MST have not qualified but might get a discretionary place (as they did last year).

    For worlds:
    MFT need L8 at Euros (depends on who is selected for the team)
    If not, RK needs only 1xL64 from Long Beach/St Petersburg/Shanghai

    MST need L8 at Euros would match their best ever result (Euros 2016)
    Assume he's not selected for team, JH would need 25 points from the next 3 comps (2xL64, 1xL32) to qualify.

  15. #75
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    Georgina Usher addresses a lot of the issues raised in this thread in the interview I did with her for the latest episode of the fencing podcast (http://www.thefencingpodcast.com/pod...georgina-usher ). It's hardly Frost/Nixon but it might help you get a better idea of where we've been with the WCP, how we ended up where we are now, the good bits we can take from WCP and the way ahead. You may have to put up with Gav and I having a bit of chat but if that's too abhorrent for you, the interview starts around the 46 minute mark. We're on iTunes too if that's more your thing https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/...4fb5f3a775d455
    Sean Walton - the voice of reason!

    www.salleholyrood.com

    www.thefencingpodcast.com

  16. #76

    Default Thank you

    Many thanks to the people involved in making this decison. http://www.britishfencing.com/news/latest-news/?n=1704

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Eames View Post
    Many thanks to the people involved in making this decison. http://www.britishfencing.com/news/latest-news/?n=1704
    That's a good decision.

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    The decision was wise and correct just like a Tory about turn.
    Hopefully we will see BF delivering equality in their decisions across the weapons and sexes in the future, a logical selection process which will encourage participation, over all age groups.

    I was baffled and amused to see ME being the only weapon ignored (now corrected) and not considered worthy of any discretionary positions for a Team in this age group. Then to see in the U23 Euros the ME is the only discretionary Team selected at all. There just doesn't seem to be any consistency.

    As I said hopefully this is the start of a new direction from BF.

  19. #79
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    Now that we've got the decision it would be nice to help Matt Cooper on his way:

    Crowd funding for Plovdiv.
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    Quote Originally Posted by max View Post
    Now that we've got the decision it would be nice to help Matt Cooper on his way:

    Crowd funding for Plovdiv.
    Thanks for highlighting this Max. It would certainly be great if we give a hand to our top ranked JME fencer this season, particularly as his last 16 in the Euros must have swayed the decision about sending both him, and a team, to the Worlds.

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