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Thread: Selection for Junior World Fencing Championships

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    The dynamics of the sport have changed since UK Sport made the decision to withdraw funding.
    I see no evidence of that. I actually see more evidence of an attempt to continue the policy but without the money.

    I am also concerned that Pete Eames, with his central role in promoting LP Centre Epee (which appears from the outside at least to have been running epee) raises this issue.

    What is missing is an official announcement.

    When we are the level of an official suggesting his note is not 100% correct (despite it being absolutely clear that the important bit is correct), when one of the only things in the public domain is evidence of the selection he is complaining about, then you will perhaps concede that there is good reason for me to remain a long way from sharing your confidence.
    Edward Peck

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    Quote Originally Posted by ED_R View Post
    I see no evidence of that. I actually see more evidence of an attempt to continue the policy but without the money.

    I am also concerned that Pete Eames, with his central role in promoting LP Centre Epee (which appears from the outside at least to have been running epee) raises this issue.

    What is missing is an official announcement.

    When we are the level of an official suggesting his note is not 100% correct (despite it being absolutely clear that the important bit is correct), when one of the only things in the public domain is evidence of the selection he is complaining about, then you will perhaps concede that there is good reason for me to remain a long way from sharing your confidence.
    As I said before the qualification system for this season will not be reversed. That I have on good authority.

    However, the system will change next season, because the discretion system will not be applied and all fencers
    will have an equal chance to qualify.

    The only impediment will be the cost of competition. It is unlikely that the BFA will have resources to fund selected fencers beyond perhaps European and World Championships.

    I do know for example that one of Britain's elite athletes has made arrangements to fund his training and sport,
    but has made the decision to compete in tournaments which are realistically affordable. in other words he will not be travelling to World Cups and Grand Prix in Asia.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    ...........I think that most people in the sport understand that Epee has had a fairly raw deal in the past which has had a fairly damaging impact on weapon. I am fairly sure that will be reversed and there will be a level playing field from September.
    I think Epee is still having a fairly raw deal, and the decision by the PD (and I am assured it was her decision to overrule those now leading Epee) not to send a JME Team to the Worlds will leave a legacy of further disadvantage following her departure.

    Waiting until September is too late.

    Epee has put together its own rescue plan supported by the Epee Club, and endorsed by BF. And well done to all involved in that plan. However instead of supporting this plan, which was devised by those trying to reduce further damage to the weapon, it would seem that the PD is intent on one last twist of the knife. Or that is certainly how this has been presented. Let's hope that fencers affected by this decision are still keen to invest their money next season.

  4. #44

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    I start by apologising both to readers and to BF, for any inaccuracies and for any misleading comments in my post, If it is misleading, that wasnít my intention, nor was it my intention to have a bit of fun or post something which was not boring. Georgina Usher, CEO of BF, has replied directly to me, and corrected me. I wonít publish Georginaís reply to me, because that is a private email, but I should identify some of my inaccuracies.

    There is a team of fencers going to the Junior World Championships, but there will not be a GBR team taking part in the Menís Team Epee event. (What prompted me to write the post was my thought that it was the decision of only one person not to send a Menís Epee Team)

    GB fencers are subsidised.

    There is a published selection policy see: http://www.britishfencing.com/upload...2017_final.pdf which sets out BFís policy for selection, for both individual and team events. But I hadnít re-read this before posting. However I have now and found paragraph 31 quite interesting. My opinion that the top 4 in the rankings should go to [Junior] World Championships is contrary to the current policy. The current BF policy is that the fencers should achieve a qualification standard before they can be selected.

    One purpose for writing the post was to give my personal view of an alternative selection process for fencers as they go through the various age groups, Cadet, Junior, Under 23, Senior, so hopefully they donít drop out having reached the top of one age group. I guess most of us, as we progress through those age groups, donít have the self -belief that we are extremely likely to win a Cadet, Junior, Under 23, Senior, World Championship title. But equally we are unlikely to be satisfied with just being selected and getting thrashed when we get there. We will want to do well, and on a perfect day, win a medal or even a title. Most of us are amateurs, doing the sport in addition to the [more] important things in our lives, e.g. school, college, university, job, marriage, family. Hopefully, once we have got through more important events and times in our lives, to have an incentive to come back and continue trying to achieve selection for a World or European Championships.

    A knock-on benefit of having sent more fencers to previous team and individual events, is that more points would have been earned, then future teams would be ranked higher, leading on to better results. A snowball effect.

    On the other hand, I can see an argument that with a performance standard; if a fencer believes they are clearly the best in GBR, they will qualify anyway, and therefore donít need to bother training hard to achieve a good international qualifying result. Therefore they might not achieve as much as they could have at the World Championships as they would have, if they had had to have trained hard to reach the qualifying standard.

    I previously referred to my experience in Triathlon. Triathlon has two sets of World Championships, the Age Group World Championships and the ĎBrownlee Brothersí type [professional] World Championships; selection for the first is by getting in the top of the qualifying events, although for remaining places the athletes should be within a certain percentage time of the winner. https://www.britishtriathlon.org/gb-...roup-triathlon Selection for the second is tough, and based on certain results in certain (usually) international competitions, but not always, I canít summarise several pages in a sentence or two, but see: https://www.britishtriathlon.org/bri...a-overview.pdf

    I canít provide a good evidence based submission to the BF Board to consider a change, that either reducing the qualification standard or changing to a performance standard will result in better international results. I can say that the British Veterans Fencing selection process has encouraged me to have a several year training plan, with a view to future qualification and success in European and World Veteran Championships, knowing that if I am the best in GBR at that time I will be selected.

    I do share BFís aim, and Iím sure the wish of most of the readers of this post, and the membership of BF, for GBR fencers of any age group, team and individual events, to get the best results as possible internationally, at European and World Championships and of course The Olympic Games. There are requests for cash to help achieve this, either to BF http://britishfencing.com/news/latest-news/?n=1689 or specifically epee: http://www.epeeclub.org.uk/cio/ - (I know it is possible to support epee by setting up a monthly standing order).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    instead of supporting this plan, which was devised by those trying to reduce further damage to the weapon, it would seem that the PD is intent on one last twist of the knife. Or that is certainly how this has been presented. Let's hope that fencers affected by this decision are still keen to invest their money next season.
    Hear hear.
    Edward Peck

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    Your update is really helpful Pete, and the selection criteria need to stimulate high performance not support selection by being the least bad of a group who don't feel they are required to perform. I don't think it's that simple though for Epee at the moment.

    A number of the many changes to selection criteria and performance support have impacted in my view on Epee more than other weapons, including changing the Nationals impacting on an already successful Epee competition running in that slot. I still haven't seen that long standing event publicised this year and wonder if it has been killed off by the BF actions - that would be another disappointment.

    The impact of change in JME is that older fencers have stepped away from selection events giving younger fencers more opportunity, but with less potential experience to perform. With the loss of funding and impact for the WCP the whole selection process becomes more questionable, and we had an opportunity to deviate from stated expectation to build a solid base for the weapon. You mention that selection criteria need to be applied to give value, yet the way the criteria have been devised we have a fencer who performed in the top 16 in the Europeans not seen as 'good enough' within the terms of the criteria to go to the Worlds. I wonder how many other countries will exclude such talent because the fencer peaked at the right point in the season.

    We are in a period of transition for Epee where strong leadership has been put into place and funding options are being explored. We are not in the place we expected to be had external funding been secured. I still hold out a hope that someone at BF might reward the performance of our current top ranked JME fencer, and in doing so will also support the team position. Reading between the lines of your post, unfortunately I fear I might hope in vain.

  7. #47
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    On the Epee point, it could be solved by a simple insertion to the qualifying criteria.

    "Where an incomplete team has been selected for the World Championships, if a fencer at the European Championships achieves as qualifying result for the World Championships, that fencer can be added to the World Championships Team. NOTE: No fencer already selected can be displaced from the team by this action."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foilling Around View Post
    On the Epee point, it could be solved by a simple insertion to the qualifying criteria.

    "Where an incomplete team has been selected for the World Championships, if a fencer at the European Championships achieves as qualifying result for the World Championships, that fencer can be added to the World Championships Team. NOTE: No fencer already selected can be displaced from the team by this action."
    Lots could be done Paul, and almost certainly will be for next season. The pity is that the GB JME ranking will be lower next season because no Team went to the Worlds, so those working to support Epee going forward are further back than they needed to be.

    Surely there is / was time between the Euros and the Worlds to take an executive view and reward positive performance for one individual if nothing else. I believe those leading Epee asked but were refused, because the selection rules didn't allow it. Results from the Euros only count towards the following years selection, not the year in which you peak ..... Very odd.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Eames View Post
    On the other hand, I can see an argument that with a performance standard; if a fencer believes they are clearly the best in GBR, they will qualify anyway, and therefore donít need to bother training hard to achieve a good international qualifying result. Therefore they might not achieve as much as they could have at the World Championships as they would have, if they had had to have trained hard to reach the qualifying standard.
    I strongly disagree with this statement and I really hope this isn't the underlying basis for the selection criteria as it stands. Any fencer who gets to the top of the GBR rankings at cadet/junior level has already put a shift in, shown great commitment and will be working hard to maintain their National/European/World standing. Where is the evidence that they aren't, and that this makes a difference and produces better results. All it currently does, as I see it, is preclude our fencers from competing at the highest level and deny opportunity. I'm a long way from being sold on this being the right thing to do for the future of (epee) fencing in GBR. Maybe I'm missing the obvious!

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    It seems to me to be a misunderstanding of how people think.

    My view is that denying access to competitions has the effect of damaging everyone. Fencers, coaches and organisers.

    If you really believe that the fencers you have are not training hard enough, and you need to impose performance standards, then you need to make the targets stretching but achievable. If it is not achievable then you will not encourage training, or even participation. You will do the opposite.
    Edward Peck

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    Quote Originally Posted by ED_R View Post
    It seems to me to be a misunderstanding of how people think.

    My view is that denying access to competitions has the effect of damaging everyone. Fencers, coaches and organisers.

    If you really believe that the fencers you have are not training hard enough, and you need to impose performance standards, then you need to make the targets stretching but achievable. If it is not achievable then you will not encourage training, or even participation. You will do the opposite.
    Which is why the policies driven by one person have had a disproportionately adverse effect on the sport as a whole. Far in excess of the weighting of their position within it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ED_R View Post
    If you really believe that the fencers you have are not training hard enough, and you need to impose performance standards, then you need to make the targets stretching but achievable. If it is not achievable then you will not encourage training, or even participation. You will do the opposite.
    Thank goodness we have a Performance Director who understands these things so that the rest of the fencing community doesn't have to. I wonder how we will cope when she leaves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavski View Post
    Which is why the policies driven by one person have had a disproportionately adverse effect on the sport as a whole. Far in excess of the weighting of their position within it.
    But the real questions are how much have we learned from it, and what are the key differences between what the PD did, and what the next wave of administrators are going to do.

    The Crowdfunding "Maintain and continue". The refusal to change selection to recognise better performance at the Europeans in the selection for the worlds.

    Just at the minute it seems suspiciously like all we have replaced is the person to blame.
    Edward Peck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    I wonder how we will cope when she leaves.
    By breaking out the celebration bunting😉......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    I think Epee is still having a fairly raw deal, and the decision by the PD (and I am assured it was her decision to overrule those now leading Epee) not to send a JME Team to the Worlds will leave a legacy of further disadvantage following her departure.

    Waiting until September is too late.

    Epee has put together its own rescue plan supported by the Epee Club, and endorsed by BF. And well done to all involved in that plan. However instead of supporting this plan, which was devised by those trying to reduce further damage to the weapon, it would seem that the PD is intent on one last twist of the knife. Or that is certainly how this has been presented. Let's hope that fencers affected by this decision are still keen to invest their money next season.
    There may have been a case to use discretion in the case of selecting a mens cadet team, but having looked at
    the individual results of the Mens Junior Epeeists this season I think that you would struggle to justify selection of Mens Team by any measurement including the old rules pre appointment of the PD or WCP.

    Only one Men's junior epeeist has managed to produce a L64 or better results at a World Cup this season. Even
    by historic selection standards fencers were expected to achieve a minimum of 2 x L64 or 1 x L32 result.

    That is I am afraid the difficulty, which precludes the CEO or Board overturning the decision of the PD and selection panel.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    There may have been a case to use discretion in the case of selecting a mens cadet team, but having looked at
    the individual results of the Mens Junior Epeeists this season I think that you would struggle to justify selection of Mens Team by any measurement including the old rules pre appointment of the PD or WCP.

    Only one Men's junior epeeist has managed to produce a L64 or better results at a World Cup this season. Even
    by historic selection standards fencers were expected to achieve a minimum of 2 x L64 or 1 x L32 result.

    That is I am afraid the difficulty, which precludes the CEO or Board overturning the decision of the PD and selection panel.
    Which in itself is the result of years of poor talent management. It has resulted in a non selection self fulfilling prophecy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    There may have been a case to use discretion in the case of selecting a mens cadet team, but having looked at
    the individual results of the Mens Junior Epeeists this season I think that you would struggle to justify selection of Mens Team by any measurement including the old rules pre appointment of the PD or WCP.

    Only one Men's junior epeeist has managed to produce a L64 or better results at a World Cup this season. Even
    by historic selection standards fencers were expected to achieve a minimum of 2 x L64 or 1 x L32 result.

    That is I am afraid the difficulty, which precludes the CEO or Board overturning the decision of the PD and selection panel.
    What you have discovered is that if you hit a weapon (read fencers) often and hard enough, you will erode performance.

    Look at when the results went down. I think you will see that it changed when all help was removed from epee. They even removed the coaches from internationals.

    It is not the fencers who should be severely punished. It is British Fencing.

    now you have to rebuild. There is considerable effort taking place. Back it.
    Edward Peck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Velden View Post
    Only one Men's junior epeeist has managed to produce a L64 or better results at a World Cup this season. Even
    by historic selection standards fencers were expected to achieve a minimum of 2 x L64 or 1 x L32 result.
    Stat correction:

    Luxembourg - 6 JME in the 64
    Riga - 1
    Espoo - 1
    Junior Euros - 3

    If you are going to use stats RV you really should check before pressing send.

    I can only suggest that if you fail to put fuel in a car eventually it will slow down & stop but I am still hoping that things might become sunnier and if not they are a very talented young group that will work together for 2-3 years. Who knows what may happen when they are run properly and positively with enouragement and help abroad as the other weapons continue to have.
    just a daddy...and chauffeur

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranna's Father View Post
    Luxembourg - 6 JME in the 64
    Riga - 1
    Espoo - 1
    Junior Euros - 3
    .
    Actually:

    Luxembourg - 3 x L32 and 3 x L64
    Riga - 1 x L32
    Espoo - 1 x L64
    Euros - 1 x L16, 1 x L32, 1 x L64

    One fencer selected for Worlds - 1 x 32 and 3 x 64
    Not selected - 1 x 16, 1 x 32
    Not selected - 1 x 32, 1 x 64
    Not selected - 1 x 32
    Not selected - 1 x 32

    Consistency of squad performance reduced during the season following removal of travelling coach by BF. Performance improves at the Euros under the new Epee Management structure.

    Only one of these fencers is in their final year for the age group. Lots to build on, if the PD could only see it.

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    Of course in contrast, BF have spotted the talent in JWE selecting three fencers:

    By right: 2 x L16 (incl Euros), 1 x L32
    Discretion: 1 x L64 (but a great Cadet season)
    Discretion: 1 x L64 in last year's Worlds.

    You have to love consistency of decision making.

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