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Thread: International results

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    Default International results

    In the last Europeans GB came 5th in the medal table. We have done better in the past, but the real worry is that virtually all the medals came from cat3 4/5. We need to encourage the younger fencers into the vets and raise the standards. I believe that this should be far more of a priority than a new selection scheme which is the equivalent of re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
    I posted the above on FB but it was strangley removed after a couple of minutes.
    Graham

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    Senior Member ChrisHeaps's Avatar
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    For men's epee there are only two fencers in the top 100 of vet age that aren't already participating in the vets and that's Greg Allen and Jason Scrimshaw.

    Greg is still competing as a senior international so you may have to wait a while for him. Could someone at Jason's club ask him nicely please?

    That's M.E. sorted. I don't know what the situation is like in the other weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisHeaps View Post
    For men's epee there are only two fencers in the top 100 of vet age that aren't already participating in the vets and that's Greg Allen and Jason Scrimshaw.
    And many others in Cat 1 are having to balance other commitments with their fencing.

    Jason has done 2 of the last 3 Commonwealth veterans (Gold and Bronze), so has done the Vets, suspect like me this year, just did not really work within other things going on to go to the Euros.

    Greg I think is still in denial that he is 45, but whilst he can still beat up the young ones so efficiently, his focus is better directed in Open fencing (and gives the rest of us a chance).

    Life at GB vet events will certainly become more difficult when he does join the Veterans field however..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

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    I'm a Vet now and it's time that's the problem.
    My time is seriously at a premium with family/work/play and I'd rather prioritise a Senior competition where there will be a lot of strong fencers than a smaller Vet event to only 10 hits.
    I'll turn up and do a few I'm sure but it's hard to make them a priority for now.

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    Default Far from sorted

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisHeaps View Post

    That's M.E. sorted. I don't know what the situation is like in the other weapons.
    I am afraid that the standard is far from sorted. In ET16 with the exception of women's sabre all of the younger teams were placed in the bottom third and were frankly outclassed. I dont think any of the teams won a DE match. In Italy I think the only medal was won in womens sabre, with none of the others even getting very close to a medal.
    we need to do something to raise the standard of our younger veteran fencers.

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    Senior Member marg's Avatar
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    I know that there are quite a few 40+ male sabreurs who have not joined the Vets. What would encourage them to join?

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    I think there is too little on offer for those aged 40-50. Everything revolves around selection now, which rather excludes those who aren't old enough to be selected for the Worlds.
    I have never been to an Age group event as, being a woman sabreur, there are precious few taking part.
    I enjoyed the former Nationals as I had plenty of fencing against all age groups, but I didn't attend this year as I would get minimal fencing and couldn't qualify for anything which would have made it worthwhile.
    I joined the vets at 40 because I was asked to fence at the Vets Winton which I really enjoy every year. I love the inclusivity of our sport.
    When I fenced at the Nationals I did well enough to go and fence in a friendly in Germany that year, which was also tremendous fun.
    I think it's a great shame that so much emphasis is put on selecting for the Worlds, that the fun of fencing and the thrill of being involved in this inclusive enterprise is becoming ignored.
    More vets competitions may be the answer. But every year we put on a comp at the Hampshire and we aren't exactly inundated...

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    Quote Originally Posted by marg View Post
    I know that there are quite a few 40+ male sabreurs who have not joined the Vets. What would encourage them to join?
    Free membership for the first year so that they can see if they like it?
    Could we liaise with BF and get a list of people who turn 40 each year and send them an invitation to come and join us? Many fencers may not even know about the vets.

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    Default Far from sorted

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisHeaps View Post

    That's M.E. sorted. I don't know what the situation is like in the other weapons.
    I am afraid that the standard is far from sorted. In ET16 with the exception of women's sabre all of the younger teams were placed in the bottom third and were frankly outclassed. I dont think any of the teams won a DE match. In Italy I think the only medal was won in womens sabre, with none of the others even getting very close to a medal.
    we need to do something to raise the standard of our younger veteran fencers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by graham paul View Post
    I am afraid that the standard is far from sorted. In ET16 with the exception of women's sabre all of the younger teams were placed in the bottom third and were frankly outclassed. I dont think any of the teams won a DE match. In Italy I think the only medal was won in womens sabre, with none of the others even getting very close to a medal.
    we need to do something to raise the standard of our younger veteran fencers.
    For the record in ET16 ME did win a DE against Poland and we would have won more had we not lost our strongest man in the poules to a back injury.

    But that's bye the bye. Is your original post motivated by your well known opposition to the selection scheme or are you happy with that now?

    What's your suggestion for raising standards amongst the youngsters? The ME vets that I know of train regularly and compete in the highest standard competitions in this country, the Elite series. I would suggest that your own success in the oldies is due to your success as a kid and in the seniors. You are now fighting the same people that your were able to beat back then. We can easily see what fencers there are with that background coming through the age pipeline and so we can predict when any particular weapon will be strong as long as injury doesn't put a stop to their fencing.

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    Senior Member bafco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marg View Post
    I know that there are quite a few 40+ male sabreurs who have not joined the Vets. What would encourage them to join?
    The men's (and women's) sabre competitions not being on Fridays?
    If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marg View Post
    I know that there are quite a few 40+ male sabreurs who have not joined the Vets. What would encourage them to join?
    It's not just joining, it's about finding time/motivation to enter some Vets events as well.
    only 18 of the top 50 have even done 6 or more domestic comps this year, so we're not turning out much even to those events we get ranking points for.

    There's a wider question about why people walk away from competing completely when they decide to stop competing seriously, rather than drop down to occasional once a week fencing at a local club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by graham paul View Post
    I am afraid that the standard is far from sorted. In ET16 with the exception of women's sabre all of the younger teams were placed in the bottom third and were frankly outclassed. I dont think any of the teams won a DE match. In Italy I think the only medal was won in womens sabre, with none of the others even getting very close to a medal. We need to do something to raise the standard of our younger veteran fencers.
    Lets take Epee -

    Think we had a Gold medallist in Women's Epee in Cat one a couple of year's ago in the European Veteran's individuals. Really low standard, you are suggesting.

    As for ET16, I would suggest none of the Cat 1/2 teams had the strongest fencer available.

    For ME the winner of the previous year's GB National Vets was injured (who was Cat 2), I was unbeaten before I did my back in and the likes of Greg Allen is still concentrating on seniors. The rest of the team fenced really well, however if you lose your strongest, very experienced fencers from a team it will create a problem. We could put a very strong team in if everyone was available, however many people do not have the money or time to compete with family/work commitments. When kids leave home etc, there is a bit more time to dedicate to fencing again.

    For WE the Gold medallist from the individual Euros the previous year was not competing, which creates a big hole in a team.

    I think the key is actually being able to convince our younger veteran's to do the events. Many of the comments from 'negative directions' makes it seem like the Veteran's set up is just a winging set of old gits, which is not very attractive and makes people think twice about attending/joining BVF.

    In reality the huge majority of veterans really enjoy the events they attend, the atmosphere is great at them and I generally really enjoy them.

    As is often the case however, the loudest people with their own personal agendas make it sound like their is huge conflict, however in reality there is probably less in comparison to other areas of fencing, just people with more life experience generally are far more stubborn and expect to get their own way.

    Obviously with changes to 'selection systems' and reforms to event structure with cause some issues, however there is a structure for feedback and I think things will be tweaked to improve them.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

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    I think as Hokers said the issue is retaining the top/nearly top fencers into veteran age groups.

    WF and WS are very limited in the numbers staying involved.

    Of my generation, very few of the top 20 fencers (male and female) are still involved and those that are, are more likely to be coaches/referees rather than fencers.

    From my own perspective my involvement in fencing will be limited to refereeing - given I don't have time to train properly I prefer to spend my time doing activities where training is more flexible (running) or as a pure hobby (weekly riding lessons). I know full well how much training is required to fence well, and fencing badly doesn't appeal. I would rather compete against myself at running and be pleased at incremental improvements in my time than frustrated when I fail to execute the plan I can see should win me the fight!!
    Last Competition: Bristol L8
    Next Competition: Dunno

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    Quote Originally Posted by graham paul View Post
    In the last Europeans GB came 5th in the medal table. We have done better in the past, but the real worry is that virtually all the medals came from cat3 4/5. We need to encourage the younger fencers into the vets and raise the standards. I believe that this should be far more of a priority than a new selection scheme which is the equivalent of re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
    I posted the above on FB but it was strangley removed after a couple of minutes.
    Graham
    I don't often use the Forum but saw a comment on the BVF Facebook group - 'Some potential interesting discussions on 'Fencing Forum' on the need for competitive fencers to join the Vets." A good discussion to have.
    Thanks Jane H.

    Graham, the reason that your comment on the BVF Facebook group was deleted and that you have been removed from the group, by me as administrator of the group, is not strange. It is that not for the first time that you, as a member of the BVF committee, have breached the Committee Protocol, despite being reminded of it. This Protocol was agreed by committee at the last meeting at which all voting members were present including you. You have replicated your FB post here but without the word 'Discuss' at the end. (I have briefly looked at another thread on this forum that you have started about censorship.)

    You will be receiving an email from me as Chairman today.

    To you and all who use this forum or Facebook, this is NOT censorship in any way. This is breach of Committee Protocol. The committee encourages healthy debate. It is, however, not acceptable for a committee member to make public insinuations, accusations or sarcastic remarks about the committee or any individual of that committee on which that member serves. It is certainly not acceptable for me as Chairman or any other committee member to engage in a public argument with another committee member on Social media. This would be bringing BVF into disrepute. This effectively makes us defenceless, hence the Protocol. As administrator of the Facebook group, it is my prerogative to remove any comments which I deem to be inappropriate and remove any user from the group, particular someone who is persistently inappropriate. This Committee Protocol is published on the BVF website but for information, the relevant points are:

    "We do not use social media to canvas opinions or lobby members unless it is a decision of the committee to do so."

    "Once the committee has made a decision we abide by the concept of 'collective responsibility', and defend the decision to the membership at all times, even where we may personally have voted against the decision."

    "Failure to abide by this protocol will result in the committee member doing so being
    censured or suspended from the committee. Persistent, flagrant or serious infringement may be considered
    to bring BVF into disrepute and may be sanctioned in accordance with section 5 of the BVF Constitution."

    If anyone has any complaints about me, in my role as Chairman of BVF or Facebook group administrator, then please send them to the committee. Social media is very public and can be very destructive and I do not intend to engage on social media in anything which may bring BVF into disrepute. I will not be making any further posts on this matter on this forum.

    For information, recent medal results for the European Veterans Individual Championships are as follows:


    2017 - Gold 2, Silver 4, Bronze 10 - Total 16
    2015 - Gold 3, Silver 2, Bronze 2 - Total 7
    2013 - Gold 1, Silver 4, Bronze 8 - Total 13
    2011 - Gold 6, Silver 3, Bronze 7 - Total 16
    2009 - Gold 5, Silver 1, Bronze 7 - Total 13
    2007 - Gold 4, Silver 2, Bronze 8 - Total 14
    2005 - Gold 3, Silver 2, Bronze 1 - Total 6

    I will break this down into age categories as soon as I can and publish in the next newsletter.


    Gillian Aghajan
    Chairman BVF

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    wow.

    I can't believe you are struggling to attract a younger crowd - it looks like you guys have a lot of fun and don't take life too seriously...

    How can Butlin's for the grey fencing brigade be brought into disrepute?

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    Graham

    The point you raise is reasonable, although it seems to have raised the hackles of some of your committee colleagues.

    I had a quick look through the results at the EC (Didnít look at them all but expect a similar trend.)

    I think there is something to consider when doing a comparison as you have;

    ē More medals in the Cat 3/4/5
    This could be simply down to probability.
    If you look at the number of entrants there are significantly lower numbers entered in these events so the chances of medaling rises.
    MF Cat 1(83), Cat 2(92), Cat 3(45), Cat 4(16)
    ME Cat 1(179), Cat 2(201), Cat 3(114), Cat 4(39)
    This isnít surprising for as you are fully aware, as age advances things drop off! Etc.



    Regardless of this, you also need to look at who are getting medals (or performing well) at European and World level in Vets. Go back 10 years of so and the Vets contained a bunch of older people who used fencing as a form of exercise in middle age. Many of these had started fencing later in life.

    If you look at who are performing well at this level over the past 10 years, the level of fencing is rising and many of the medalists were in their youth either full international fencers or fenced on the international circuit. People starting fencing later in life will, I believe, find it increasingly more difficult to succeed on the World/Euro scene at Vet level.

    GBís Wedge, Troiano, Bartlett, Paul, Osbaldeston, Cohen, are all examples. Also look at Lauren Bel and Bruno Royer from France.

    Encouraging top fencers to stay in the sport after their 35ís is hard enough, but with the first age group at the Worlds being +50, it becomes even more difficult to keep them in the sport that long with developing family commitments.

    I donít know what the solution is, but I hope you find it. Certainly a topic worth raising.
    JohnL

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    ***** Legend hokers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by late starter View Post
    It is certainly not acceptable for me as Chairman or any other committee member to engage in a public argument with another committee member on Social media. This would be bringing BVF into disrepute.
    And yet you chose to post this in public instead of messaging Graham privately?

    Hardly an advert to join BVF

    Quote Originally Posted by riposteinprime View Post
    I can't believe you are struggling to attract a younger crowd - it looks like you guys have a lot of fun and don't take life too seriously...
    Bravo. Remind me never to join a committee.
    ďLive a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by riposteinprime View Post
    it looks like you guys have a lot of fun and don't take life too seriously
    Most of the Veterans have a really good fun time.

    Just some of the politics (which most Veterans never get involved with) is disruptive.

    I think pretty much the differing viewpoints have been aired very well, and stating that Veteran fencers are failing when the total medal has equalled the best in over a decade if not very useful.

    Yes some of the silvers and bronzes could have been golds, but that is often just what happens on the day by a hit or two.

    All in all BVF does a pretty good job, most Veterans really enjoy BVF events and appreciate the work the BVF team put in..

    As per all things in life, it could be better, but that is why they welcome constructive feedback and I am sure they will act where appropriate.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

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    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokers View Post
    And yet you chose to post this in public instead of messaging Graham privately?
    If you read 'late-starters' post, Graham has been reminded repeatedly previously but has ignored those messages.

    If he ignores those, what can BVF do, just allow a committee member to carry on stirring regardless.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

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