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Thread: Thoughts on the new GBR patch?

  1. #81
    Senior Member ChrisHeaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danKew View Post
    This has been bugging me for a few days ... in the context of this thread, I take it that a 'fencing tourist' has negative connotations. Why? And who is this aimed at ... I've just spent many weeks importing the FIE results database and very few Brits appear in the senior results over the past 10 years. Barely any cadets enter the non-nominated events ... and the Junior World Cups, nitto. Is it a foil/sabre thing?

  2. #82
    Senior Member danKew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisHeaps View Post
    Ahhh.. OK, yes I can think of a few foreign types!! Bas too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FencingMove View Post

    Inclusivity is about including people in the sport. You can be included in fencing while not wearing stripes you didn't earn.
    That's a narrow definition.

    It's a great British Fencing brand - but only for the elite?!

    The "earning your stripes" argument is totally flawed, shallow and exclusive.

    An opportunity to use the brand to bind and grow pride in the community is being missed.

  4. #84

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    Out of interest ... what do other countries do with regard to fencers wearing stripes? Cadets, Juniors, Seniors ... in other countries who/which fencers wears their stripes? In other countries, when/at what stage in a fencers progress are they given stripes to wear? Do the majority of countries have the same 'policy' / view on stripes as the UK? Are all countries doing the same? Should all countries do the same?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencingforever View Post
    Out of interest ... what do other countries do with regard to fencers wearing stripes? Cadets, Juniors, Seniors ... in other countries who/which fencers wears their stripes? In other countries, when/at what stage in a fencers progress are they given stripes to wear? Do the majority of countries have the same 'policy' / view on stripes as the UK? Are all countries doing the same? Should all countries do the same?
    In the US if you want to buy the patch for leg, you can go right ahead.

    That being said...if you're a relatively unskilled/inexperienced competitor and hit the piste with that on your leg, you'd better be able to back it up with performance.

  6. #86
    Senior Member danKew's Avatar
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    Related ... Pentathlon GB have just launched their new kit for the current Olympic cycle - http://pentathlongb.org/news/post/pe...p-under-armour

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    Quote Originally Posted by danKew View Post
    Related ... Pentathlon GB have just launched their new kit for the current Olympic cycle - http://pentathlongb.org/news/post/pe...p-under-armour
    I'll give them it's sharp and smart especially using the under armour brand, but what is it with designs at the moment, does everyone have an aversion to using the British Flag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danKew View Post
    Related ... Pentathlon GB have just launched their new kit for the current Olympic cycle - http://pentathlongb.org/news/post/pe...p-under-armour
    Shall I highlight this bit:

    A new online Pentathlon GB shop will be launched later in the summer, giving the opportunity for Pentathlon GB followers to buy kit and look like our top athletes with both training and competition wear set to be available to purchase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencingforever View Post
    Out of interest ... what do other countries do with regard to fencers wearing stripes? Cadets, Juniors, Seniors ... in other countries who/which fencers wears their stripes? In other countries, when/at what stage in a fencers progress are they given stripes to wear? Do the majority of countries have the same 'policy' / view on stripes as the UK? Are all countries doing the same? Should all countries do the same?
    We are the only country that I know of that sends cadets to international qualifying events without uniformity.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    Shall I highlight this bit:

    A new online Pentathlon GB shop will be launched later in the summer, giving the opportunity for Pentathlon GB followers to buy kit and look like our top athletes with both training and competition wear set to be available to purchase.
    Exactly. Not only an opportunity to make everyone who is contributing to the sport feel part of the team, but a great fund raising initiative.

    Why shouldn't parents/personal coaches/supporters wear team jackets when travelling with the GB squad?

  11. #91
    Senior Member danKew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    Shall I highlight this bit:

    A new online Pentathlon GB shop will be launched later in the summer, giving the opportunity for Pentathlon GB followers to buy kit and look like our top athletes with both training and competition wear set to be available to purchase.
    There are lots of great positives for Pentathlon in that press release!

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    The opportunity for our NGB to make some financial gains was lost as soon as BF decided to Outhouse all their merchandising. I'm aware this still contributes but not as much as if it was all run by BF.

    Clothing could have been released for all to purchase with the new logo, fencers elite or just starting, and as stated before supporting parents, staff and coaches.
    To keep everyone happy small differences in the uniform patches could have been designed in for the different age catagories.
    But again it's the NGB going ahead with a plan without consultation, and if there had been a process of communication with the membership then BF would have found out all these gripes big and small mentioned on this thread and would have been able to act and go forward positively.

    I know members of my family aren't too over joyed with the new design watered down to its sow on patch, and the black trousers are simply a no so I've been told.

  13. #93

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    I wonder whether if for a young or aspiring fencer, or indeed any fencer, living in continental Europe, whether it is such ‘a big thing’ to fence in a competition which is not in their own country, something to which we could refer to in GBR as going to a ‘foreign’ or ‘overseas’ competition, which in GBR would often come about as a result of being selected.

    I would suggest that to a GBR based fencer, (and their parents) competing abroad is ‘a big thing’ and maybe therefore also a prestigious thing to fence in a foreign country because of the logistics and cost involved. Flights, airport parking, Eurostar rail, driving, all involve much cost, advance planning, adaptation, very likely at least one overnight stay, unlike, for example a fencer based in, say Belgium or Switzerland, who can hop in their car or minibus and after two or three hours, and half a tank of fuel, have arrived in one of maybe two or three different countries, in the same way that in GBR a Midlands based fencer could go to Manchester, Newcastle, or London.

    This might explain why most of the foreign based fencers I am lucky enough to train with have their names and countries on backs of their jackets, and often country flags or badges too. Fencing ‘abroad’ for a continental European is so much easier and straightforward. It would be interesting to see at an ordinary open held in continental Europe, how many of the fencers there from a different country wearing national colours have been awarded these, or just chosen to have them on their kit, knowing they are likely to fence in a different country at some point. Maybe it's also because they have had a greater opportunity to be selected for their country and 'earned their colours' than we had in GBR until our very recent changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Eames View Post
    I wonder whether if for a young or aspiring fencer, or indeed any fencer, living in continental Europe, whether it is such ‘a big thing’ to fence in a competition which is not in their own country, something to which we could refer to in GBR as going to a ‘foreign’ or ‘overseas’ competition, which in GBR would often come about as a result of being selected.

    I would suggest that to a GBR based fencer, (and their parents) competing abroad is ‘a big thing’ and maybe therefore also a prestigious thing to fence in a foreign country because of the logistics and cost involved. Flights, airport parking, Eurostar rail, driving, all involve much cost, advance planning, adaptation, very likely at least one overnight stay, unlike, for example a fencer based in, say Belgium or Switzerland, who can hop in their car or minibus and after two or three hours, and half a tank of fuel, have arrived in one of maybe two or three different countries, in the same way that in GBR a Midlands based fencer could go to Manchester, Newcastle, or London.

    This might explain why most of the foreign based fencers I am lucky enough to train with have their names and countries on backs of their jackets, and often country flags or badges too. Fencing ‘abroad’ for a continental European is so much easier and straightforward. It would be interesting to see at an ordinary open held in continental Europe, how many of the fencers there from a different country wearing national colours have been awarded these, or just chosen to have them on their kit, knowing they are likely to fence in a different country at some point. Maybe it's also because they have had a greater opportunity to be selected for their country and 'earned their colours' than we had in GBR until our very recent changes.
    I think Pete you have a major point, I have concluded after chaperoning daughter around Europe Fencing for the last 18 months that all the country patch really is is a quick identifier used by officials, fencers and parents to quickly identify an opponent - it does not say if you are good or not! It's a bit like having GB on your vehicle number plate. I also think trying to make it into a badge of honor is wrong as it is making it into something it is not.

    I lived abroad for a while when younger and did not think twice about going to a different country to do a supermarket shop as cheaper. If you live on the continent going to another country for lunch, shop or sport is no big deal.

    With regard to fencing I have taken daughter to U13, U14, U15 & Cadets abroad. Even at a U14 Cup the vast majority of kids even if they had only been fencing a couple of years had their name and country patch/transfer on their jacket (often a patch on an old jacket). At the time daughter had HC stripes and they could not understand why she was not allowed (or not the done thing) to have GB stripes and a GB tracksuit/sweatshirt if abroad and found the HC stripes confusing. To them it was something you sewed on when you fenced abroad to identify you. Not required but very useful. I got the feeling it was encouraged so fencers could be identified quickly a bit like the HC stripes are used for Poland U13/U15.

    To show how useful they can be when daughter was fencing U13 in Poland the referee got in a complete mess of who had fenced who as only 2 fencers had national colours and someone had clipped on at the wrong time. If every fencer had had colours and name on the back it solves problems with language and nationality and hopefully the pool sheet filled in correctly.

    I will not for the time being be unpicking daughter GB stripes (unless of course she is required to change over or there is a change in opinion regarding them) as they were sewn on rather well with back stitch and they serve their purpose of identifying her whilst abroad.

    The FIE technical rules are
    The list from the Technical rules t.45 of who requires country ID on legs etc.
    – no mention of Satellites, Junior World Cup or U23 which all need an FIE licence.

    b) Wearing his national uniform and logo (cf. m.25.3).
    i) Senior, Junior and Cadet World Championships, all bouts, whether in a pool, in the direct elimination or during a team match;
    ii) Individual: Senior World Cup competitions and Senior Zonal Championships, all bouts, whether in a pool or in the direct elimination;
    iii) Teams: Senior World Cup competitions and Senior Zonal Championships, all bouts in every match.

  15. #95

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    [QUOTE=coach carson;320211]

    "The "earning your stripes" argument is totally flawed, shallow and exclusive. "


    Please don't underestimate the motivational value of "earning your stripes" on young fencers. When under 13's and under 15's turn up to the club with their new Stripes (as it is now), the younger kids notice and aspire to earn them too. They wear them with such pride. Why shouldn't they have a feeling of "pulling on an England shirt" like their U13 or U15 football / rugby / volleyball peers?

    We went to Poland for the first time this year and if I'm honest I have to say I thought the England Teams red hoodies looked a bit sad compared to some of the other national team and even club tracksuits.

    I agree that the Senior Team do deserve something distinguishing and that could be given out to them by BF on their first selection for the team maybe, but I also love Chris's idea of patches for other levels of achievement "England under 13 team" "England under 15 team" "England cadet team" etc. As a parent I see how hard these kids train and how committed they are to the cause. I personally feel they deserve some recognition from their respective governing bodies when the time comes. To me, it's not shallow, it's pride, motivation to reach that level and acknowledgement.

    We could just have a general patch for those fencers going abroad to fence individually which could be used as an identifier for referees etc.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by jahl View Post
    The FIE technical rules are
    The list from the Technical rules t.45 of who requires country ID on legs etc.
    – no mention of Satellites, Junior World Cup or U23 which all need an FIE licence.

    b) Wearing his national uniform and logo (cf. m.25.3).
    i) Senior, Junior and Cadet World Championships, all bouts, whether in a pool, in the direct elimination or during a team match;
    ii) Individual: Senior World Cup competitions and Senior Zonal Championships, all bouts, whether in a pool or in the direct elimination;
    iii) Teams: Senior World Cup competitions and Senior Zonal Championships, all bouts in every match.
    So in theory anyone selected at cadet or junior level could still wear the old GB stripes, as could anyone attending Satellites or U23 comps. Only those cadets or juniors qualifying for the relevant Worlds would then need to swap over to the new patch, so showing that higher level of progress. At senior level the swap comes with qualification for senior world cups. That would give the new patch the gravitas some believe is required whilst still recognising progress in selection for cadet and junior teams.

    Just thinking out loud.

    However ..... As the new cadet kit supplied by the BF shop includes the new patch design maybe that's just too confusing.

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