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Thread: Thoughts on the new GBR patch?

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnutLP View Post
    There is nothing wrong with looking awesome but as per my post it is a trade off between size and complexity vs cost.
    The Italia logo is big but in one colour so easy to spray.
    The korea logo is a nightmare to apply so very expensive and fades or peels off. If you read my link to the blog post you would understand.
    I hate to say this but if people concentrated more on getting through the poule and less on how they looked the results might improve...
    The Italia logo isnít a spray though, itís a patch that costs about the same in Euroís. I agree with what youíre saying about complexity vs cost, which is why itís weird they went for a very complex design when a much simpler design would have looked better. Saying people should not comment on a logo and instead focus on their fencing is a null point. No one is suggesting Richard Kruse and the rest of the GB squad should stop fencing and fix the logo.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnutLP View Post
    I hate to say this but if people concentrated more on getting through the poule and less on how they looked the results might improve...
    The psychology behind clothing in sport is well proven. I can't believe you wrote that!

    This is a good article that is pertinent to this thread - https://www.theguardian.com/science/...lympic-success

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnutLP View Post
    I hate to say this but if people concentrated more on getting through the poule and less on how they looked the results might improve...
    Wow, just wow! Actually, it saddens me to read this remark.

    I do wonder how much the fact that APEX clothing cannot be heat pressed influenced the decision to use a patch.

  4. #24
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    The stripe got somewhat de-valued by the end, the change in design is a chance for the new patch to mean something.
    But surely anyone can buy it and whereas the stripes took quite a bit of effort to get sewn on, this patch is an easy job for a parent to do.

    The effort involved to have stripes stitched on actually was the barrier to people just putting tem on for the sake of it, this badge far less so surely.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    As the weapon manager for Epee I hope that the only people who have the new patches are fencers who are competing at FIE events. This includes:

    Junior World Cups
    World Cups
    Satellites
    European Cadet Championships
    European Junior Championships
    European Senior Championships
    World Cadet Championships
    World Junior Championships
    World Senior Championships

    Fencers taking part in cadet international events or opens in other countries should not be wearing the new patch as it is not required.

    The stripe got somewhat de-valued by the end, the change in design is a chance for the new patch to mean something.
    I like this. Actually I would narrow the field even more because fencers competing in Satellites don't have to wear stripes. They only have to be identified with naming on their back.

    In other news. The design looks more akin to a sponsorship badge (like the mercedes ones some of the Germans wear) than a national stripe. With change there is always resistance. I don't hate the badge, as long as it looks professional when on the kit.

    I would still take pride in earning the right to wear it.

    British Veterans as it is a different organisation should have their own stripes or badge.

  6. #26
    fixing broken stuff! wingnutLP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danKew View Post
    The psychology behind clothing in sport is well proven. I can't believe you wrote that!

    This is a good article that is pertinent to this thread - https://www.theguardian.com/science/...lympic-success
    Is there a strong evidence base that shouting from the piste side helps your fencer?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolo View Post

    I do wonder how much the fact that APEX clothing cannot be heat pressed influenced the decision to use a patch.
    No uniforms containing dyneema can be successfully heat pressed. This includes all top of the line kit from most manufacturers. You can do it but only at a reduced temperature so it peels off very quickly.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnutLP View Post
    Is there a strong evidence base that shouting from the piste side helps your fencer?
    Not that it's relevant to this thread, but I'd imagine that varies on a per fencer basis and what is being shouted.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    But surely anyone can buy it and whereas the stripes took quite a bit of effort to get sewn on, this patch is an easy job for a parent to do.

    The effort involved to have stripes stitched on actually was the barrier to people just putting tem on for the sake of it, this badge far less so surely.
    What will be a barrier to change over if not absolutely required is for those who have already have British stripes sewn on by some poor parent who used their best backstitch will be the pain of having to unpick them! I unpicked daughters England stripes last year, took me a long time.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FencingMove View Post
    I like this. Actually I would narrow the field even more because fencers competing in Satellites don't have to wear stripes. They only have to be identified with naming on their back.
    The rule is a bit ambiguous, sometimes mentioning satellites specifically and sometimes lumping them in under the 'World Cup' umbrella. I have seen a DT at a satellite take a fencer aside and offer to pin a printout of their national logo onto the breeches so they wouldn't need to get carded. Although we pulled out the rulebook it was hard to prove that colours WEREN'T needed.

    Easier to just advise them for all FIE events. If that lets a few "unworthy" satellite fencers slip through then so be it. I'd rather see more people doing satellites anyway.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member randomsabreur's Avatar
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    What is the purpose of stripes?

    To make a country's fencers easily identifiable at a distance or angle where name/country code is not visible!

    Not bragging rights/looking good - sorry Jon!

    Therefore cadet internationals absolutely should have some form of stripes/country identification to avoid embarassing incidents where senior officials inadvertently support one (probably better known) gb fencer vs another one, to allow our officials to spot poor behaviour by one of our fencers so that they can see events first hand and so the team can see if one of our fencers needs support. Maybe cadets should keep the old stripes for this purpose if we really need the basic identifier of gb's fencers to be some kind of ego trip!

    HC stripe not appropriate for GB event.

    Of course if we have a patch we could always have ways of making the patch have ranks - in eventing the senior team have a plain unionjack patch and the 3 age group teams have different colours.
    Last Competition: Bristol L8
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  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by rake View Post
    The rule is a bit ambiguous, sometimes mentioning satellites specifically and sometimes lumping them in under the 'World Cup' umbrella. I have seen a DT at a satellite take a fencer aside and offer to pin a printout of their national logo onto the breeches so they wouldn't need to get carded. Although we pulled out the rulebook it was hard to prove that colours WEREN'T needed.

    Easier to just advise them for all FIE events. If that lets a few "unworthy" satellite fencers slip through then so be it. I'd rather see more people doing satellites anyway.
    Ok that's no problem. I've been berated for having stripes for satellites before. I was advised that stripes were not necessary. I just think they should be limited to senior international fencers. Not veterans not cadets. They just need to mean something again. People work really hard for the honour of wearing them.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by randomsabreur View Post
    What is the purpose of stripes?

    To make a country's fencers easily identifiable at a distance or angle where name/country code is not visible!

    Not bragging rights/looking good - sorry Jon!

    Therefore cadet internationals absolutely should have some form of stripes/country identification to avoid embarassing incidents where senior officials inadvertently support one (probably better known) gb fencer vs another one, to allow our officials to spot poor behaviour by one of our fencers so that they can see events first hand and so the team can see if one of our fencers needs support. Maybe cadets should keep the old stripes for this purpose if we really need the basic identifier of gb's fencers to be some kind of ego trip!

    HC stripe not appropriate for GB event.

    Of course if we have a patch we could always have ways of making the patch have ranks - in eventing the senior team have a plain unionjack patch and the 3 age group teams have different colours.
    I think most would argue that they serve the dual purpose of making countries identifiable to referees and also as a badge of honour or mark of achievement. They aren't designed as a high-vis jacket for cadet competition organisers.

  13. #33
    Senior Member randomsabreur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FencingMove View Post
    I think most would argue that they serve the dual purpose of making countries identifiable to referees and also as a badge of honour or mark of achievement. They aren't designed as a high-vis jacket for cadet competition organisers.
    Name on back plus country code makes fencer identifiable to referee. Purpose of stripes is for spectators - when they were introduced the other option was 2 pairs of breeches - one in white one in blue (like judo) - one fencer wears blue so can be identified at a distance.
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  14. #34
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    Whenever this debate emerges for its annual outing there are two camps who will never change their views, because both have extremely valid justification. Camp one 'you should only earn your stripes (patch) by representing GB at the highest level'. Camp two 'if you are fencing in an international setting it's important to develop the team ethos by having your fencers identifiable'.

    Across GB we expose our younger fencers at U13 and U15 to international events, and those going on organised trips are expected to wear England or Scotland stripes for those trips - to help identify the teams fencers at a distance but also because the competition originally attended required fencers to wear their club badge by way of identification. The England or Scotland stripes are the agreed club badge.

    So when those fencers move to GB representation it's surely no surprise that the England / Scotland stripes become GB stripes. It again helps identify the fencers but increases the sense of team.

    For anyone who has seen fencers who represent at Junior level or above, and if I recall correctly all Junior International events require country identification, the addition of the Beazley sponsor patch provided that clarity of representation at this next level. And you only got that patch by having represented in this way.

    Surely there is a middle ground that allows for both camps. Earlier in this tread it was suggested that different representation should give a different patch. As we are now talking about something that's much easier to sow on than stripes, isn't that the middle ground. The only downside is that the company producing the patch will have to hold more stock. Or have the ability to create stock very quickly.

    In terms of the current patch, coming back to the thread purpose, I agree with others that it misses the impact of the original design. Maybe it should be reserved just for those fencing at the highest level, and everyone else can keep using the existing stripes - which have a better impact by far. That would rely on the existing stripes still being available. Hopefully though this could be possible.

  15. #35

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    Only this sport could turn an administrative requirement of the FIE into a "badge of honour".

  16. #36
    Senior Member Jon Willis's Avatar
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    Default It's about the culture

    I believe it is very simple, if you fence in an FIE event you are required to have your national colours on your kit. If you are not fencing in an FIE event, you don't.

    So from my point of view, fencers who have the new GBR patch will have fenced for GBR at FIE level. If a fencer has the new GBR patch on their kit and have not fenced for GBR at FIE level, this tells me a lot about that fencer and their motivation and attitude towards their sport.

    I do not at all accept the identification argument, a fencer can wear a pair of pink socks, they will stand out then at an international.

    By all means put your name and country code on your back. Again, strictly that is not required at non-FIE so again cadets do not need it for the EFC circuit but I'm more relaxed about this.

    My current employers are a commercial organisation and want to sell as many patches as the can so I am biting the hand that feeds me somewhat what by trying to bring a culture into Epee that you 'earn your stripes' rather than kitting yourself out in the finest tradition of a fencing tourist.

  17. #37
    Senior Member ChrisHeaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    So from my point of view, fencers who have the new GBR patch will have fenced for GBR at FIE level. If a fencer has the new GBR patch on their kit and have not fenced for GBR at FIE level, this tells me a lot about that fencer and their motivation and attitude towards their sport.
    I don't think you can safely draw any conclusions in this way at the cadet level. In my experience on the EFC circuit over the past two years there were plenty of kids who had stripes on simply because they were proud to be competing for GBR abroad. They are otherwise highly motivated fencers who have worked hard to achieve that.

    There is probably an element of keeping up with the Jones's but isn't that indicative of a healthy competitive nature, in the parents at least.

    In my case as a fencer I knew there was an element of elitism about this so I checked and didn't put stripes on my daughter's kit until the European Championships. However I'm a camp 2 person, I think it's nice to have the team looking sharp and all the other European nations seem to share the same philosophy.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by FencingMove View Post
    Not veterans not cadets.
    The national logo is required at the Veteran's World Championship. For the European Veteran's Championships the wearing of the national logo is not required but is "highly recommended."

    If the GBR patch is to be designated as a indicator of achievement then it should only be available from BF and limited to people who are members of the team or squad. This should also be clearly defined. But BF have enough on their plate without have to police who wears the patch

    Personally I don't care who wears it. If someone aspires to represent his or her country as an international fencer or just want to pretend to be one, or in fact just like the look of the logo, then good luck to them. Fencing is cliquey and insular enough as it is with adding another layer of exclusivity.

  19. #39
    Senior Member randomsabreur's Avatar
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    If it were practical I'd like to enforce names on back in U11s - certainly of any owned jacket, making it harder to lose fencer or jacket. Club kit to bear club name. Life for all concerned much easier!

    Don't mind if it is the wrong name - I probably remember half the old names that appear on club kit.
    Last Competition: Bristol L8
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  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by randomsabreur View Post
    If it were practical I'd like to enforce names on back in U11s - certainly of any owned jacket, making it harder to lose fencer or jacket. Club kit to bear club name. Life for all concerned much easier!

    Don't mind if it is the wrong name - I probably remember half the old names that appear on club kit.
    They used to do this weird thing at my old school where you put your name on the inside of your clothing. This accomplished more or less the same thing.

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