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Thread: Thoughts on the new GBR patch?

  1. #41
    ***** Legend hokers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FencingMove View Post
    They used to do this weird thing at my old school where you put your name on the inside of your clothing. This accomplished more or less the same thing.
    Dad stops kids losing their kit with this weird trick! Manufacturers hate him!

  2. #42
    Senior Member gethylogic's Avatar
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    And now time for me to pitch in with my usual viewpoint on such matters.

    "For God's Sake Guys, It's Only A Bit Of Cloth!!!"

    It's true, there's certainly people out there who shouldn't be wearing "stripes".

    I remember being at the Liverpool Open a few years ago and a boy came up to me and said "That man over there is the worst British Fencer I've ever seen" referring to GBR team fencers.

    I turned to him and replied, "That's because he really isn't, he's only wearing them because he went to live abroad for a bit and thought he needed them to compete in domestic competitions. Which as you probably know, is not true. He's just wasted 25"

    And while this might frighten the elders of the board. You can't really impose on someone's free will. He wasn't harming anyone by wearing them (apart from Jon's feelings maybe ) as it's just strips of material at the end of the day.

    I think it's important for us in the fencing community to acknowledge that stripes/patches/etc are not the be all and end all. If you want to use them as some kind of incentive or goal then great, I have absolutely no problem with that. It's your uniform, put a Peppa Pig patch on there for all I care. Although, and I try to point this out to as many people as I can, stripes are a terrible way to asses a fencer's "quality". While you shouldn't treat fencers with stripes any differently than you would if anyone else was about to fence you.

    That said, and I'm probably not alone here, whenever I fence someone wearing stripes I always try to up my game. Which isn't really going to help that man at the competition. So you never know, he might decide it's worthwhile to remove them in future.

    (And obviously if a competition requires them, do your research and make sure everything fits with their criteria)
    Last edited by gethylogic; -21st June 2017 at 11:25.

  3. #43
    Senior Member randomsabreur's Avatar
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    Given the way kit gets passed on beginners are likely to be wearing stripes, possibly on the breaches that belonged to the coach or their spouse...

    I generally find that the label inside school uniform is in letters 5mm high - requiring me to get close to ID it - FIE regulation size means I can poke it with a foot or see it further away... which is prefereable if dealing with a teenaged boy?

    Also doesn't tend to work well to identify which 2 fencers I have when you have 2 called James, Tom, Thomas, Ollie and Oliver, all of whom are small and wearing a mask.
    Last Competition: Bristol L8
    Next Competition: Dunno

  4. #44
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FencingMove View Post
    They used to do this weird thing at my old school where you put your name on the inside of your clothing. This accomplished more or less the same thing.
    A name in big letters on the outside of kit stops people deliberately nicking it, or accidently acquiring and trying to flog it on ebay.

    There have been a few occasions I have identified suspicious kit for sale on ebay and have been able to let the rightful owner know and have had that kit returned.

    Also I have on about 3 occasions come across people selling kit with my name clearly written on it and have got those items returned. Usually where I have leant kit to people who have not returned it when they stopped fencing and then parents not realising try to simply get rid of it.

    If it is small name on labels, these are easy to cut off and so remove that identification..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  5. #45

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    Well, the debate on who should wear the stripes/patches gets aired pretty much every year, so I won't go into that yet again.

    On the actual new design, it's poor. Let's not pretend otherwise. The original artwork seemed pretty decent but this actual final product is one of the worst on the circuit.

    Why are we changing from stripes at all? If it was an improvement, then fair enough. But it's not. In fact the stripes were actually pretty unique worldwide and set GBR fencers apart, and made them instantly recognisable. Now we are changing to a very small, bland patch that doesn't particularly mean anything from a distance?

    So again; whats the point?

  6. #46
    Senior Member gethylogic's Avatar
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    I agree and understand with where you're coming from, that said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Riposte View Post
    On the actual new design, it's poor. Let's not pretend otherwise. The original artwork seemed pretty decent but this actual final product is one of the worst on the circuit.
    It's all subjective, let's face it until we actually see it on a pair of breeches or in the skin (I have a feeling the lighting is making the blue look darker than it should be) it's hard to compare to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Riposte View Post
    Why are we changing from stripes at all? If it was an improvement, then fair enough. But it's not. In fact the stripes were actually pretty unique worldwide and set GBR fencers apart, and made them instantly recognisable.
    Are stripes really that unique? I'm probably not alone in occasionally mixing them up with fencers who represent Belarus from a distance. If that's the case then I can kind of understand the reasoning.



    Quote Originally Posted by Double Riposte View Post
    Now we are changing to a very small, bland patch that doesn't particularly mean anything from a distance?
    But again, it's hard to judge how they're going to look from a distance if we haven't in fact seen them from a distance. Although 12cm x 12cm doesn't appear to be too big, granted.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    I believe it is very simple, if you fence in an FIE event you are required to have your national colours on your kit. If you are not fencing in an FIE event, you don't.

    So from my point of view, fencers who have the new GBR patch will have fenced for GBR at FIE level. If a fencer has the new GBR patch on their kit and have not fenced for GBR at FIE level, this tells me a lot about that fencer and their motivation and attitude towards their sport.

    I do not at all accept the identification argument, a fencer can wear a pair of pink socks, they will stand out then at an international.
    To be honest the design of the patch compared to the original graphics makes me wonder if you will get your wish, because we might find folk less than keen to want the patch in the first place.

    The tester though will be how the nations respond to the launch. If we keep the various stripes to show representation at U13, U15 and School or University games, for example, then the debate gets muddy. You get to wear one set of identification for generic events, albeit representative, but not for GB Cadets as a single age group???

    I agree that our FIE representative fencers need to have something different, and maybe the patch should indeed be issued by British Fencing when selected at that level, distributed by the weapons managers. If the patch remains on general sale folk will buy it.

    In terms of non FIE events I assume there is no reason why a fencer can't still wear nation or even GB stripes. You have to wear the designated identifier for FIE events but the rules don't stop other stripes I guess at non FIE events???

    This debate always includes the 'selected to fence' argument, with the stripes then being a recognition of selection for England / Scotland etc or indeed GB for the cadet events, but it's ok to have nation stripes, but not GB Cadet. The stripes may not be needed, but with so little positive reward for fencers that recognition might just be important.

    However ...... as I said above, you know who the top selected fencers are by the old Beazley patch, and they only went to fencers at FIE events. The only way to solve this once and for all is to have something that adds to the nationality identifier to show that higher representation.

    And if we think there is a problem, looking at all of the cadets from other nationalities turning up in their colours for non FIE events, the issue of fencing tourism is widespread.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Jon Willis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    The only way to solve this once and for all is to have something that adds to the nationality identifier to show that higher representation.
    How about a GBR patch required to fence in FIE events?

    If you have been selected to fence in an FIE event slap one on your kit. If you haven't, don't.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    How about a GBR patch required to fence in FIE events?

    If you have been selected to fence in an FIE event slap one on your kit. If you haven't, don't.
    Always up for that simple solution.

    U13 /U15 - gets selected to fence for their nation, so wears national stripe / patch

    U18 gets selected to fence in school games, so wears national stripe / patch

    U17 gets selected to fence for GB, so has to remove all previous stripes / patches and have a plain kit because the alternative is disrespectful to those selected for FIE events

    The same I guess applies to Vets who don't go to the right competition?

    If wearing stripes is so wrong, why do all other countries seem to encourage it? Until this becomes a formal rule, anyone who feels offended will just have to feel that way, because it's one view vs another, back to the two camps from my first post. And neither is formally right or wrong.

    However ..... Make the patch a BF issue, and the problem gets solved.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Jon Willis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick E View Post
    Always up for that simple solution.

    U13 /U15 - gets selected to fence for their nation, so wears national stripe / patch

    U18 gets selected to fence in school games, so wears national stripe / patch

    U17 gets selected to fence for GB, so has to remove all previous stripes / patches and have a plain kit because the alternative is disrespectful to those selected for FIE events

    The same I guess applies to Vets who don't go to the right competition?

    If wearing stripes is so wrong, why do all other countries seem to encourage it? Until this becomes a formal rule, anyone who feels offended will just have to feel that way, because it's one view vs another, back to the two camps from my first post. And neither is formally right or wrong.

    However ..... Make the patch a BF issue, and the problem gets solved.
    I don't care about Home nation representation. For EFC events, you can wear what you like, keep your England stripe on or you club colours. But if you have not been selected for an FIE event you should not have a patch on your Kit.

    I'm the Epee Weapon Manager for BF and I don't want to see any British Epee fencer who has not been selected for a FIE event wearing the new patch.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    I'm the Epee Weapon Manager for BF and I don't want to see any British Epee fencer who has not been selected for a FIE event wearing the new patch.
    Despite my challenge I do agree that our FIE representative fencers must stand out. And if the position you have taken as the current Epee Weapon Manager is replicated across the other two weapons then this patch can be launched in the way you suggest.

    However. There are still folk who want or need something to show their progress which may include GB selection for a non FIE event. It was suggested in an earlier post that a different version of the patch might exist for that purpose. Ideally we could have a patch that says GB Cadet, but that individualisation has proven difficult even for kit from the BF shop, where cadets and juniors (representing at FIE level) get the same kit.

    If we really want to show the special nature of FIE representation access to the FIE kit / colours has to be restricted.

    The current muddled approach will not help.

  12. #52
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    I'm confused. Are there actual rules in place about who can wear them or am I reading opinion here?

    "Wear them once you've earned them" certainly has a lot of merit. But I also think that the idea of "Team GB" could extend beyond the three or four selectees and embrace the wider community that contributes significantly to the sport. Why not let members of the small once a week club be able to wear the badge with pride and feel part of the team and the national effort. Might even be some significant merchandising opportunities as a result.

    As an alternative thought. Let everyone wear them and charge an extra couple of pounds for each patch, proceeds to go to funding something useful.

  13. #53

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    From now, on selection for an FIE event, the retro fitting of a couple patches will be considerably faster and easier than it was for stripes. I'm sure previously some people on the edge of selection bought kit with the stripes already on, knowing how difficult it would be to sew on the stripes themselves.

  14. #54
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    My biggest issue with a patch rather than a printed logo is the extra 'ridges' it will add to catch a point in Epee.

    Less of an issue for Foil or Sabre, but for Epee it could be the difference between a 15-14 win or loss in Epee and if that is at a critical point in a World Youth Championships, that may effect future support of the weapon.

    As in the likes of cycling 'marginal gains' all add up, this option is certainly a margin loss..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  15. #55
    Senior Member Jon Willis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    My biggest issue with a patch rather than a printed logo is the extra 'ridges' it will add to catch a point in Epee.

    Less of an issue for Foil or Sabre, but for Epee it could be the difference between a 15-14 win or loss in Epee and if that is at a critical point in a World Youth Championships, that may effect future support of the weapon.

    As in the likes of cycling 'marginal gains' all add up, this option is certainly a margin loss..
    Don't worry Chris, won't matter at epee until FIE level and then the patch is less 'ridge surface area' than the length of a stipe currently is. so we have made a marginal gain by changing.

  16. #56
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    Default First of all the logo should be on the colours of the country's flag

    Why do we have to have Black. Why not Blue.
    It is not fit for purpose in its current colours scheme.
    What ever the extra cost is for another colour it has to be made as it's the correct colour.
    Shall we start printing union flags in black too!

    Just my humble opinion, but come on! It's missing the basics to be credible. It's not a British logo, it's just 3 letters in a neutral colour scheme without meaning.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
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  17. #57
    Senior Member gethylogic's Avatar
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    I feel like I'm talking to Cardiff Blues supporters (the reference isn't important). It's not black, it's just a very dark blue.

  18. #58
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    Don't worry Chris, won't matter at epee until FIE level and then the patch is less 'ridge surface area' than the length of a stipe currently is. so we have made a marginal gain by changing.
    My concern is at Worlds etc, when one hit here or there can be the difference between 'success and failure' for the whole weapon.

    But the stripe is very thin, so gives little edge to catch' especially if well sewn into the seam, the 'badge' with its size will surely have a certain thickness, which will surely give a far more noticeable ridge, or is this patch the same thickness of material as the original stripes?

    I have had many of my fencers ask why we do not have an OPS badge to go on jackets and my main reason is that at the most important point, it 'may' make the difference. Chances are it will not, but you never know.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  19. #59
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Key thing at the top level of epee, every hit can count and if you lose a fight when a point just catches the edge of a seam of the patch, I would be very annoyed.

    I just wanted to ask how every other country does it's printed stripes as none of them have resorted to 'patches'? Have they got a different printing procedure or is their kit more able to take the heat?.

    If it is the multiple colours being the problem, surely this should have been taken into account when the rebranding took place and a simpler badge designed? which could be printed as a patch will probably look more old fashioned than the current stripe?
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

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    Default Cheap naff work around

    The logo on the photo worn by Richard Kruse looks really good.
    One of the issues of the crap patch is it says GBP not GBR as in the original design.
    Surely if the original design was accepted by the FIE one could get it printed themselves and not have to buy a pants looking patch that neither identifies the Fencer as GBR or is in national colours. Sorry to rant but I can't see any reason why anyone would think this new patch is a good idea.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
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