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Thread: Stratford Cadet and Hamlet Open 2017

  1. #1
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    Default Stratford Cadet and Hamlet Open 2017

    Good evening everyone!

    We have entry details for the Stratford Cadet
    http://allentries.co.uk/competitions/view/SCS-0917

    And the Hamlet Open
    http://allentries.co.uk/competitions/view/hamlet-17

    Taking place on September 23rd and 24th

    This year, we will also be supporting and raising money for the Alice Ruggles Trust. Information about the Trust and why its such an important cause can be found at
    http://www.alicerugglestrust.org/index.php

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    Entries are coming in for these events.

    The 20th Hamlet Open Sabre (also U20 nominated) - http://allentries.co.uk/competitions/view/hamlet-17
    Stratford Cadet Sabre - http://allentries.co.uk/competitions/view/SCS-0917

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    Once again, we will also be running senior team competitions.
    These will start as soon as the relevant individual event is over.

    The entry fee will £40.

    45-hit relay, teams of 3 with an optional reserve. Email me to enter.

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    Evening everyone! Some details ahead of the Hamlet Open/Stratford Cadet this weekend. Please share this around to spread the news!

    We will be aiming to start every event 10 minutes after the published check-in close times. For Men's Sabre, on the Sunday, because so many of you love fencing, we will be running the poules as two waves, leaving two pistes open for warm-up in the first wave. We will be able to provide more information at check-in.

    For the Cadet Girls Sabre, there will not be a repechage, because we have only an incomplete 32.

    Also, be aware that there is the Stratford Food Festival on this weekend, so there will be some road closures. Give the Pimms tent a go!

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    Is there going to be a kit stand at the event? If so LP or Allstar?

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    Yes, Leon Paul

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    Default Is there a link to Live Results? Also, would you please check your messages?

    Reply to my messages privately, please, but please do post a link to Results here. Perhaps others might be interested in seeing how both the Stratford BRC Cadet and Senior Hamlet Open turn out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra View Post
    Reply to my messages privately, please, but please do post a link to Results here. Perhaps others might be interested in seeing how both the Stratford BRC Cadet and Senior Hamlet Open turn out.

    Results link will be posted by the time there are results to post

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    Smile Ah good...

    Quote Originally Posted by Savin.A View Post
    Results link will be posted by the time there are results to post
    Thanks.

  10. #10

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    Live results for individual results today:

    Women’s - https://tinyurl.com/HAMWS17
    Boys’ - https://tinyurl.com/STRATMS17

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    Default Very helpful!

    Quote Originally Posted by Savin.A View Post
    Live results for individual results today:

    Women’s - https://tinyurl.com/HAMWS17
    Boys’ - https://tinyurl.com/STRATMS17
    Thank you.

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    Live results for today's individual events:

    Men's - https://tinyurl.com/HAMMS17
    Girls' - https://tinyurl.com/stratWS17

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    Default Red, there's a private message for you.

    From me.

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    I must congratulate you both once again for running a smoothly run competition. Rarely, apart from Leon Paul, competitions does the competition flow without long delays between round.
    However, I was very disappointed at the appalling quality of referring at the weekend. Having paid the £30 entry fee I would at least expect to have competent referees who knew and understood sabre rules. Perhaps paying refers would entice more to apply, and therefore wouldn't have to fall back on epee referees. Discussing with other fencers during the day, it was noted that hiring foil referee would be significantly better than incompetant sabre referees and epee refs, because at least then they have a grasp on the concept of priority and the middle.
    The big issue with poor referring is that it's just not fair on the fencer. The fencer has put in the effort (both at training and the competition) but they are not being rewarded for the hits that are rightfully theirs. It also deludes the other fencer, so that they believe what they are doing is correct and that it will work abroad, and then they become confused when they aren't given the points when they do go abroad.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencer_1234 View Post
    I must congratulate you both once again for running a smoothly run competition. Rarely, apart from Leon Paul, competitions does the competition flow without long delays between round.
    However, I was very disappointed at the appalling quality of referring at the weekend. Having paid the £30 entry fee I would at least expect to have competent referees who knew and understood sabre rules. Perhaps paying refers would entice more to apply, and therefore wouldn't have to fall back on epee referees. Discussing with other fencers during the day, it was noted that hiring foil referee would be significantly better than incompetant sabre referees and epee refs, because at least then they have a grasp on the concept of priority and the middle.
    The big issue with poor referring is that it's just not fair on the fencer. The fencer has put in the effort (both at training and the competition) but they are not being rewarded for the hits that are rightfully theirs. It also deludes the other fencer, so that they believe what they are doing is correct and that it will work abroad, and then they become confused when they aren't given the points when they do go abroad.
    Thank you for your feedback. To respond to your point on refereeing, I would like to offer you some semi-anonymised information about some of the referees at our event:

    3 x FIE sabre referees
    2 x Sabre Commonwealth medallists
    4 x referees from the previous sabre Senior National Championships
    1 x top 5 WS fencer
    1 x WS BUCS Individual Champion
    1 x top 20 MS fencer
    4 x active international sabre referees (at EFC and/or FIE level)

    I can assure you that referees at the competition were paid and will continue to be so for their hard work at this event.

    I will not claim to know better than you what your personal experience of this competition was but I do not accept that our referee team was "appalling". This is both needlessly insulting and false and I will defend the refereeing team I worked with for their hard work and the quality of service that they provided.

  16. #16

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    Fencer_1234, I agree entirely with your comments on the organisation of the competition - proof if any were needed that 8 pistes is enough to efficiently run a competition for 90 fencers (along with the other fencing happening that day).

    I do object to comments on the refereeing. In my experience (mens sabre poules, L64, L32 - all with different referees) the refereeing was absolutely spot on. Having referees who actually apply the rules was a welcome change from the somewhat arbitrary refereeing of years gone by which seemed to favour the application of non-existent rules (the faster fencer is the attacker, step-step-lunge is an attack rather than a preparation followed by an attack etc). This is the first competition that I've attended for a while where I haven't gone home frustrated by the quality of the refereeing and vowing to never compete again. Additionally, the referees all conducted themselves very professionally and confidently - not always easy in the face of melodramatic fencers who may have limited experience of high quality refereeing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savin.A View Post
    Thank you for your feedback. To respond to your point on refereeing, I would like to offer you some semi-anonymised information about some of the referees at our event:

    3 x FIE sabre referees
    2 x Sabre Commonwealth medallists
    4 x referees from the previous sabre Senior National Championships
    1 x top 5 WS fencer
    1 x WS BUCS Individual Champion
    1 x top 20 MS fencer
    4 x active international sabre referees (at EFC and/or FIE level)

    I can assure you that referees at the competition were paid and will continue to be so for their hard work at this event.

    I will not claim to know better than you what your personal experience of this competition was but I do not accept that our referee team was "appalling". This is both needlessly insulting and false and I will defend the refereeing team I worked with for their hard work and the quality of service that they provided.
    I didn't notice anything particularly amiss with the refereeing this weekend (I can only comment for Saturday though). If anything, I found some of the younger and less experienced referees more willing to separate actions in the 4m - and they seemed to do so on a competent and consistent basis.
    Last edited by Gav; -25th September 2017 at 13:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencer_1234 View Post
    I must congratulate you both once again for running a smoothly run competition. Rarely, apart from Leon Paul, competitions does the competition flow without long delays between round.
    However, I was very disappointed at the appalling quality of referring at the weekend. Having paid the £30 entry fee I would at least expect to have competent referees who knew and understood sabre rules. Perhaps paying refers would entice more to apply, and therefore wouldn't have to fall back on epee referees. Discussing with other fencers during the day, it was noted that hiring foil referee would be significantly better than incompetant sabre referees and epee refs, because at least then they have a grasp on the concept of priority and the middle.
    The big issue with poor referring is that it's just not fair on the fencer. The fencer has put in the effort (both at training and the competition) but they are not being rewarded for the hits that are rightfully theirs. It also deludes the other fencer, so that they believe what they are doing is correct and that it will work abroad, and then they become confused when they aren't given the points when they do go abroad.
    Savin has been polite and courteous in his response. I have had a long day following a long week-end and have no inclination to do likewise.

    Even if your description of the quality of "referring [sic]" at the week-end as appalling were accurate your post would still be completely unacceptable.

    Seriously since when is it remotely acceptable to come onto a public forum under the cloak of anonymity and lambast people who whatever their shortcomings (more of which later) were doing their absolute best having given up their spare time so that a bunch of other people could enjoy a fencing competition.

    You say fencers work hard. Do you have any idea how hard referees work? Has it crossed your mind that referees too spend vast amounts of time training, working at their skill? I'm not going to bore people with the amount of week-ends I spend in fencing halls again, or the time I spend watching clips on youtube, going to clubs, talking to other referees about specific hits, etc.

    Having said that let me now be absolutely clear. Speaking as someone who in the last two years has refereed 8 international finals albeit at age-group levels, I can say categorically that the refereeing at the week-end was overall in no way "appalling".

    In fact let me go further: I thought that collectively and yours truly notwithstanding it was some of the strongest refereeing I have ever seen (so last 3-4 years) at a UK domestic sabre event. The top referees were up to their usual standard, whilst the youngsters without exception conducted themselves with the utmost professionalism, were unafraid to make decisions (sometimes big ones, one particular excellent call at 14 all in the boys cadet stands out for me) coherently, consistently and for the most part absolutely correctly (and very much in line with how things are given abroad).

    I am also sick and tired of this "abroad" argument. The last 3 years I have been fortunate enough to have been invited to referee in Wroclaw for the England fencing trip; as part of this job I give a referee briefing. This invariably starts with: "don't expect the refereeing to be any good. Don't rely on the referee to win you the fight. If you need a hit, win the hit, don't try to win the decision. Or put differently, take a massive parry, or hit with a big attack, don't rely on some strange timing [thingy]" (the actual word used was significantly ruder).

    Was every hit given correctly? Of course not. I made a couple of real howlers (thankfully not on the deciding hit this time - sorry Jamie) and I'm sure others got things wrong. But on the whole the refereeing was very good. It was one of the few events domestically apart from nationals where the depth and quality of referees present meant that the top ones weren't necessarily overworked and handed major tough fights in every round.

    On the other hand I did see on numerous occasions a fundamental hit happen (such as attack), be given completely correctly only for the fencer who got hit to argue the toss, sometimes at length, with absolutely no understanding of the fundamentals of sabre whatsoever.

    It is no secret that whilst our top sabre referees on the whole are pretty good, we are lacking in strength of depth in refereeing so that our top refs are often overstretched and overworked. Posts like this and people like you are a major part of the problem. Frankly why would anyone want to give up their week-end only to be treated to such insulting behaviour.

    If you genuinely believe the refereeing was an issue then there are proper channels for this. This forum isn't one of them. Better yet actually do something about it.

    I hope nobody who refereed at the week-end has been put off by such nonsense. I hope none of the younger refs present read the forum, but if they do let me reassure them: you were to a man excellent, and I would be delighted to work with you again in the future. I hope this means more to you than a rant from some random person on the internet.

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    I must congratulate you both once again for running a smoothly run competition. Rarely, apart from Leon Paul, competitions does the competition flow without long delays between round.
    However, I was very disappointed at the appalling quality of fencing at the weekend. Having paid the £30 entry fee I would at least expect to have competent fencers who knew and understood sabre rules. Perhaps paying fencers would entice more to apply, and therefore wouldn't have to fall back on epee fencers, or worse, sabreurs with an inflated idea of how good they are. Discussing with other referees during the day, it was noted that hiring foilists would be significantly better than incompetant sabre fencers, because at least then they have a grasp on the concept of priority and the middle.
    The big issue with poor fencing is that it's just not fair on the referee. The referee has put in the effort (both at training and the competition) but they are not being rewarded for the decisions that are rightfully theirs to make. It also deludes the other referees, so that they believe what they are doing is correct and that it will work abroad, and then they become confused when they aren't supported in the decisions they make when they do go abroad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coach carson View Post
    I must congratulate you both once again for running a smoothly run competition. Rarely, apart from Leon Paul, competitions does the competition flow without long delays between round.
    However, I was very disappointed at the appalling quality of fencing at the weekend. Having paid the £30 entry fee I would at least expect to have competent fencers who knew and understood sabre rules. Perhaps paying fencers would entice more to apply, and therefore wouldn't have to fall back on epee fencers, or worse, sabreurs with an inflated idea of how good they are. Discussing with other referees during the day, it was noted that hiring foilists would be significantly better than incompetant sabre fencers, because at least then they have a grasp on the concept of priority and the middle.
    The big issue with poor fencing is that it's just not fair on the referee. The referee has put in the effort (both at training and the competition) but they are not being rewarded for the decisions that are rightfully theirs to make. It also deludes the other referees, so that they believe what they are doing is correct and that it will work abroad, and then they become confused when they aren't supported in the decisions they make when they do go abroad.
    Did you intend to post this, or was this a quote gone wrong?

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