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Thread: Reverse shoulder rule revoked

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    Who are the “US” ?

    At what point are the “US” helping anybody.
    The “US” seem to be unable to answer a few questions on the rules of our sport.
    The “US” appear to have a facade of knowledge and then seem unable to provide any “Help” to the “You”
    It seems Plenty Is trying to help others by asking the same sort of questions most of us have about the right of way in Foil. It may not seem important to an Epeeist.
    But right if way in foil is important 100% of the time.
    The fact some self proclaimed people of importance cannot answer the question and can only put down the person asking it, only shows you probably donÂ’t have the confidence in your interpretation. I donÂ’t mind this, but please stop trying to undermine someone who is asking the question. If you donÂ’t like ( or understand whatÂ’s being asked) or you donÂ’t feel confident enough to get off the fence and say what you think, you can just ignore the thread. But please donÂ’t post the sort of sanctimonious crap and upload smarmy videos to try to detract from the fact that you canÂ’t answer the question.

    Please stick to what you know and itÂ’s not Foil right of way.

    This thread should have only answers of the questions or silence.

    Jeff
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
    Winston Churchill

  2. #22
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    Default Changing Strange characters appearing

    Who are the “us” ?

    At what point are the “us” helping anybody.
    The “us” seem to be unable to answer a few questions on the rules of our sport.
    The “us” appear to have a facade of knowledge and then seem unable to provide any “help” to the “you”
    It seems Plenty Is trying to help others by asking the same sort of questions most of us have about the right of way in Foil.
    It may not seem important to an Epeeist.

    But right of way in foil is important 100% of the time.
    The fact some self proclaimed people of importance cannot answer the question and can only put down the person asking it, only shows you probably don’t have the confidence in your interpretation. I don’t mind this, but please stop trying to undermine someone who is asking the question. If you don’t like ( or understand what’s being asked) or you don’t feel confident enough to get off the fence and say what you think, you can just ignore the thread. But please don’t post sanctimonious crap and upload smarmy videos to try to detract from the fact that you can’t answer the question.

    Please stick to what you know and it’s not Foil right of way.

    This thread should have only answers to the questions or silence.

    Jeff
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
    Winston Churchill

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jon Willis's Avatar
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    Come on, that was a quality gag


  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    Come on, that was a quality gag

    I laughed out loud a little bit. Well, actually I exhaled strongly through my nose but that’s about as good as you get on the internet these days.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander View Post
    Who are the “us” ?

    At what point are the “us” helping anybody.
    The “us” seem to be unable to answer a few questions on the rules of our sport.
    The “us” appear to have a facade of knowledge and then seem unable to provide any “help” to the “you”
    It seems Plenty Is trying to help others by asking the same sort of questions most of us have about the right of way in Foil.
    It may not seem important to an Epeeist.

    But right of way in foil is important 100% of the time.
    The fact some self proclaimed people of importance cannot answer the question and can only put down the person asking it, only shows you probably don’t have the confidence in your interpretation. I don’t mind this, but please stop trying to undermine someone who is asking the question. If you don’t like ( or understand what’s being asked) or you don’t feel confident enough to get off the fence and say what you think, you can just ignore the thread. But please don’t post sanctimonious crap and upload smarmy videos to try to detract from the fact that you can’t answer the question.

    Please stick to what you know and it’s not Foil right of way.

    This thread should have only answers to the questions or silence.

    Jeff
    I am a simple epeeist.

    I stopped fencing foil many years ago.

    I read the reports and discussions about ‘right of way’ etc but struggle to get a grip of what constitutes a valid attack in foil, although I accept if I was actively competing at foil I might have a better understanding.

    I do wonder why and how it has become so complicated. I’m sure it was much easier to understand many years ago when I first started schoolboy foil fencing. (I think it was a matter of ‘stick your arm out straight at your opponent’s target, step forward, and if you hit your opponent it’s your hit unless the opponent parries your point away from their target and then hits you).

    I wonder nowadays how somebody finishing a foil beginner course and then released into club fencing, and then maybe their first competition, deals with the issue of what constitutes a valid attack, and why their hit has been denied.

    I have seen the problem of retaining those people who complete a foil beginner course. Would it not be better to offer epee as the first weapon introduced on a beginner course, then, once the new fencer has settled in and become a regular club member, they can try out foil with its complicated rules?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Nick's Avatar
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    On a related note is there any chance that a conversation can be set up with an fie foil referee at an event some time soon where coaches can come and discuss what is being called which way and why? Have we really become so removed from the point that originated the idea of ROW (there is a clear and imminent threat which you must deal with as your first priority). Surely making changes like these to what defines an attack is actually detrimental to the sport and overcomplicates something that wasn't being effectively applied even when it was simple (Point directed at the valid target and progressing continuously towards it).

    As for starting fencers with Epee, it's an interesting argument and has been done successfully in some clubs and countries around the world.
    From my perspective as a coach, even size 0 epees are too heavy for the youngest fencers to begin with and with adults often leads to gripping the handle too tightly (plus the guard hides the hand from the coach so it's harder to see what the fencer is doing). Learning the conventions from the beginning starts a tactical development and gives a natural progression of the movements of fencing. The fencer also starts to develop hand strength and leg strength from the footwork from early on. It also allows fencers to more easily switch to sabre (another conventional weapon reliant on footwork) or epee (point weapon with similar parries).
    Jason Nesmith : You WILL go out there.
    Alexander Dane : I won't and nothing you say will make me.
    Jason Nesmith : The show must go on.
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    Next Competition:t.b.d.

  7. #27
    Senior Member pavski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    From my perspective as a coach, even size 0 epees are too heavy for the youngest fencers to begin with and with adults often leads to gripping the handle too tightly (plus the guard hides the hand from the coach so it's harder to see what the fencer is doing). Learning the conventions from the beginning starts a tactical development and gives a natural progression of the movements of fencing. The fencer also starts to develop hand strength and leg strength from the footwork from early on. It also allows fencers to more easily switch to sabre (another conventional weapon reliant on footwork) or epee (point weapon with similar parries).
    Your view obs , but there are plenty of single weapon clubs doing just this which are very successful with young kids. Camden, sabre , Brixton , epee for example. I think the idea of foil as a starting weapon is a bit old hat nowadays, the main thing is good coaching.

    (not a dig at you btw)

    Cheers Pavski.

  8. #28
    Senior Member max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavski View Post
    Your view obs , but there are plenty of single weapon clubs doing just this which are very successful with young kids. Camden, sabre , Brixton , epee for example. I think the idea of foil as a starting weapon is a bit old hat nowadays, the main thing is good coaching.

    (not a dig at you btw)

    Cheers Pavski.
    Fully agree, looking at Wingerworth FC and Derbyshire Epee Academy as examples.

    Not only successful with young people but also brilliant results at Cadet, Junior and Senior levels.
    A problem shared is one more person to laugh at you.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavski View Post
    Your view obs , but there are plenty of single weapon clubs doing just this which are very successful with young kids. Camden, sabre , Brixton , epee for example. I think the idea of foil as a starting weapon is a bit old hat nowadays, the main thing is good coaching.

    (not a dig at you btw)

    Cheers Pavski.
    I agree in part. Focusing on starting beginners with one of the other weapons has worked very well in some clubs I've seen. The first two clubs I worked at were Epee only and I agree that it can work very well and result in good fencers. That being said if your intention is to grow a three weapon club then I think the benefits of a foil beginners course outweigh what you might get from starting with sabre or epee. This does of course depend to an extent on the number of coaches you have and how many ability levels you split your sessions into. If you have beginners course, intermediate course, club level, elite level then in sabre for example you're not going to end up with beginners being overwhelmed by the speed of experienced sabreurs as they build up. If you have one coach who runs a ten week beginners course and then fencers go straight into a club session, they're never going to be able to cope with the speed of the footwork or even the hand speed of more experienced fencers.
    Similarly if they start with epee and then want to switch to sabre for example, they'll struggle to understand why they can't just counterattack and have to parry and realistically their footwork won't be fast enough which will slow down their development.
    That being said I'm aware that the Swiss for example fence pretty much exclusively Epee and are doing pretty well with that approach. Really I guess that it comes down to whether you're expecting the beginner to want to switch weapons later. (I will also add that I'm in favour of adults starting with whichever weapon they prefer)
    Jason Nesmith : You WILL go out there.
    Alexander Dane : I won't and nothing you say will make me.
    Jason Nesmith : The show must go on.
    Alexander Dane : ...Damn you.

    Next Competition:t.b.d.

  10. #30
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Current Senior Men’s number 1 and Cadet Boys and Girl number 1s started on Epee as youngsters. Never touched foil, apart from occasionally at school team championships.

    For really young ones, Epoils work really well, same weight as a size 0 foil. And can do Epee rules well.

    The huge majority of top Epeeists nowadays start on Epee, not just failed foilists of the olden days.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  11. #31
    Senior Member Nick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    Current Senior Men’s number 1 and Cadet Boys and Girl number 1s started on Epee as youngsters. Never touched foil, apart from occasionally at school team championships.

    For really young ones, Epoils work really well, same weight as a size 0 foil. And can do Epee rules well.

    The huge majority of top Epeeists nowadays start on Epee, not just failed foilists of the olden days.
    That's really interesting, what was the split within the club between weapons? also did they have the option of changing weapons once they had completed their initial beginners training?
    Jason Nesmith : You WILL go out there.
    Alexander Dane : I won't and nothing you say will make me.
    Jason Nesmith : The show must go on.
    Alexander Dane : ...Damn you.

    Next Competition:t.b.d.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    Current Senior Men’s number 1 and Cadet Boys and Girl number 1s started on Epee as youngsters. Never touched foil, apart from occasionally at school team championships.

    For really young ones, Epoils work really well, same weight as a size 0 foil. And can do Epee rules well.

    The huge majority of top Epeeists nowadays start on Epee, not just failed foilists of the olden days.
    Thanks, Cesh
    What does an epoil guard look like / who supplies them - and can an epoil for complete beginners be ambidextrous, as a foil with an ambidextrous french handle can be?
    Pete

  13. #33
    Senior Member Nick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Eames View Post
    Thanks, Cesh
    What does an epoil guard look like / who supplies them - and can an epoil for complete beginners be ambidextrous, as a foil with an ambidextrous french handle can be?
    Pete
    My understanding of an "Epoil" is that it's a foil with an epee guard, so you can basically put whatever handle you like on it. That being said as far as I'm concerned you might as well give your fencer a stick as an "ambidextrous" handle.
    Jason Nesmith : You WILL go out there.
    Alexander Dane : I won't and nothing you say will make me.
    Jason Nesmith : The show must go on.
    Alexander Dane : ...Damn you.

    Next Competition:t.b.d.

  14. #34
    Senior Member pavski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I agree in part. Focusing on starting beginners with one of the other weapons has worked very well in some clubs I've seen. The first two clubs I worked at were Epee only and I agree that it can work very well and result in good fencers. That being said if your intention is to grow a three weapon club then I think the benefits of a foil beginners course outweigh what you might get from starting with sabre or epee. This does of course depend to an extent on the number of coaches you have and how many ability levels you split your sessions into. If you have beginners course, intermediate course, club level, elite level then in sabre for example you're not going to end up with beginners being overwhelmed by the speed of experienced sabreurs as they build up. If you have one coach who runs a ten week beginners course and then fencers go straight into a club session, they're never going to be able to cope with the speed of the footwork or even the hand speed of more experienced fencers.
    Similarly if they start with epee and then want to switch to sabre for example, they'll struggle to understand why they can't just counterattack and have to parry and realistically their footwork won't be fast enough which will slow down their development.
    That being said I'm aware that the Swiss for example fence pretty much exclusively Epee and are doing pretty well with that approach. Really I guess that it comes down to whether you're expecting the beginner to want to switch weapons later. (I will also add that I'm in favour of adults starting with whichever weapon they prefer)

    Gah! You and your context giving post ,meh.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Nick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavski View Post
    Gah! You and your context giving post ,meh.
    apologies I shall try to be more controversial in future.
    Jason Nesmith : You WILL go out there.
    Alexander Dane : I won't and nothing you say will make me.
    Jason Nesmith : The show must go on.
    Alexander Dane : ...Damn you.

    Next Competition:t.b.d.

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