Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 74

Thread: B.u.c.s overhaul

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    910

    Default B.u.c.s overhaul

    Ok enough

    B.u.c.s fencing is in serious need of a radical overhaul ! Discuss

    To illustrate my point some salient facts ;

    1 - a strong sabre section can dominate the match , there is therefor a weighting that favours sabre under current format.

    2 - experienced fencers from abroad consistently communicate their bemusement and in most cases derision of our university fencing format.

    3 - let's say a team does fantastically in 2016/17 season and gets promoted... Then what happens when next season all of the original team has left the uni and complete beginners are fielded in league quite out of their depth.

    4 - a university wanting to start bucs matches needs buy electric kit all sizes and all weapons to suit male and female teams potentially competing at same time on same day so no sharing kit... Big budget shakedown

    5 - some teams ( unlike lucky london ) have to travel hours to and for for matches .. Different format would ennable multiple matches ( which some do under own initiative but not ideal format )

    6 - the individuals, despite being one of biggest event fencing wise, only gives points for top 4 .... Nuts L16 better surely ?


    Maybe I haven't thought of something , so If I am treading on someone's toes pls forgive.. Otherwise I think the whole idea needs taking out and shooting as it could be done a whole lot better.

    There isn't even a current SAG.. Sports advisory group .. Liaising properly between BF

    This is a whole field of fencing that is being overlooked ( apart from some funding driven participation projects that promote 'themed' fencing ) - I think American approach good idea .. University's have funds and like sports that can win bucs points.



    Thoughts ??
    M

  2. #2
    Initiate
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    St Albans
    Posts
    22

    Default

    surely a strong presence in any weapon will dominate a match? how is sabre special in this regard?

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Ok enough

    B.u.c.s fencing is in serious need of a radical overhaul ! Discuss

    To illustrate my point some salient facts ;

    1 - a strong sabre section can dominate the match , there is therefor a weighting that favours sabre under current format.
    Or a strong epee team or a strong foil team... The three weapon format is one of the most popular elements of BUCS matches. It's not changing anytime soon.


    2 - experienced fencers from abroad consistently communicate their bemusement and in most cases derision of our university fencing format.
    Does BUCS cater to experienced international athletes or the bulk of the student community?


    3 - let's say a team does fantastically in 2016/17 season and gets promoted... Then what happens when next season all of the original team has left the uni and complete beginners are fielded in league quite out of their depth.
    The same thing that happens to teams in every other sport in the university system. One of the best things about the student body is it's constant evolution and renewal. This will never change unless you prevent students from graduating.

    4 - a university wanting to start bucs matches needs buy electric kit all sizes and all weapons to suit male and female teams potentially competing at same time on same day so no sharing kit... Big budget shakedown
    Yes... to compete at a sport you need the equipment for the sport...

    5 - some teams ( unlike lucky london ) have to travel hours to and for for matches .. Different format would ennable multiple matches ( which some do under own initiative but not ideal format )
    All sports in BUCS have this, the nature of UK geography dictates the travel. BUCS only schedules matches officially on Wednesday afternoons as this is when most students have no lectures.

    6 - the individuals, despite being one of biggest event fencing wise, only gives points for top 4 .... Nuts L16 better surely ?
    Arguably true yes, I am personally in favour of increasing the points allocation, but the process for changing it is slow.

    Maybe I haven't thought of something , so If I am treading on someone's toes pls forgive.. Otherwise I think the whole idea needs taking out and shooting as it could be done a whole lot better.
    You want to completely dismantle university fencing? I'm confused...

    There isn't even a current SAG.. Sports advisory group .. Liaising properly between BF
    Where did you get that information, it's news to me.

    This is a whole field of fencing that is being overlooked ( apart from some funding driven participation projects that promote 'themed' fencing ) - I think American approach good idea .. University's have funds and like sports that can win bucs points.



    Thoughts ??
    M
    Actually most universities don't care all that much about BUCS points. Some do, granted, but most view sport as a good stress reliever for their students and an important part of a holistic and balanced lifestyle. Very few universities will throw money at athletes the way universities do in the US. Sure, there are some exceptions but we have a completely different education system to our cousins over the Atlantic.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Lincolnshire
    Posts
    1,567

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Ok enough

    B.u.c.s fencing is in serious need of a radical overhaul ! Discuss

    Thoughts ?M
    What's different this year to every other time you have kicked off this debate?

    I assume the thread will move to recommending single weapon events in single weapon leagues, potentially with a London based league so that fencers don't have to travel, and ignoring the thoughts, wishes and views of the majority of folk involved in BUCS fencing.

    And the solutions will suggest that you liaise with the Leon Paul centre about setting up your own series of inter University events for the group of London based Universities whom you will say want this change, and to run those events to meet that perceived need, outside of the BUCS arrangements. And because no one else will run this for you, it will not happen.

    Or something like that.

    Or is there genuinely something so very different this year????

    Just asking.

  5. #5
    Senior Member randomsabreur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Devon
    Posts
    2,099

    Default

    Savin said most of what I was going to say but sabre really doesn't have a disproportionate influence - a good team can give a 45 - 10 kicking in any weapon - and 3 sabreurs will struggle with pointy weapons. Intelligent epeeists were my least favourite opponents at sabre because they could get many sneaky stop hits from unexpected angles even on old old timings!

    French university fencing was one competition for the year (possibly a regional qualifier for bigger regions)

    Wednesday being free from lectures was a joke - negotiation happened.
    Last Competition: Bristol L8
    Next Competition: Dunno

  6. #6

    Default

    Reading this thread with amazement! I was captain of my team at university back in the mid 1990s and in those days the universities were split into regions so the south west fought the unis in the south west and the south east fought the teams in the south east. This primarily took place between oct and dec, travelling en mass with the likes of the ladies hockey team to fence for the afternoon was fun. The winners of the regional league then went into the DE knockout.

    It was simple in those days but the problem I see is that the there are too many teams being fielded.

    well that's my penny's worth

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    910

    Default

    Hi alex,

    In regards to your response to point 1- above

    The nature of sabre means that points can be scored much more quickly and easily than other weapons .. It's a big advantage for a team to have one excellent sabreur , the effect is exponential ... Pls speak to experienced coaches about this and inform yourself before responding. I assure you I am correct in this. Once you have conceded this effect we can have discussion and I can address your other errors but there isn't much point until you have taken the time to inform yourself.

    There is no SAG , as reported to me by britishfencing and by bucs itself... There is just an admin group for running bucs competition... Which you are principal on.

    Kind regards
    Mark

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Hi alex,

    In regards to your response to point 1- above

    The nature of sabre means that points can be scored much more quickly and easily than other weapons .. It's a big advantage for a team to have one excellent sabreur , the effect is exponential ... Pls speak to experienced coaches about this and inform yourself before responding. I assure you I am correct in this. Once you have conceded this effect we can have discussion and I can address your other errors but there isn't much point until you have taken the time to inform yourself.
    Ah yes, the old chestnut that supposedly only coaches understand sport. Do you really expect anyone to believe that coaches occupy a position of omniscient deity over the rest of the fencing community?


    There is no SAG , as reported to me by britishfencing and by bucs itself... There is just an admin group for running bucs competition... Which you are principal on.

    Kind regards
    Mark
    Okay sure, the name has been changed to the Event Management Group. Its primary function is to organise BUCS Individuals but we are still on hand to advise BUCS should they require or request.

  9. #9
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    East Northamptonshire - Yarwell
    Posts
    5,349

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    The nature of sabre means that points can be scored much more quickly and easily than other weapons .. It's a big advantage for a team to have one excellent sabreur , the effect is exponential ... Pls speak to experienced coaches about this and inform yourself before responding.
    The nature of University fencing is that if you have one fencer in any weapon that dominates that weapon in a team match that fencer can carry a team.

    I remember being in matches where I scored 35 or so of the hits in an Epee relay and 41 of the hits in foil match.

    At the time I was top 25 in all 3 weapons and I found it far harder to dominate Sabre matches to such an extent as fencing a beginner in sabre who just goes for it will get quite a few 'random hits' which are not expected, in foil and epee it was far easier IMHO in Uni fencing to not get hit.

    Mark, maybe it is just the case you have come across situations where certain Unis just have strong sabre teams, but not situations where a Uni have a very dominant epee team for example?

    Anyway this is an annual campaign by you and will get exactly the same reactions from the Students and organizers who are very knowledgeable on the subject.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  10. #10
    Senior Member scottishsabreur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    609

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Hi alex,

    In regards to your response to point 1- above

    The nature of sabre means that points can be scored much more quickly and easily than other weapons .. It's a big advantage for a team to have one excellent sabreur , the effect is exponential ... Pls speak to experienced coaches about this and inform yourself before responding. I assure you I am correct in this. Once you have conceded this effect we can have discussion and I can address your other errors but there isn't much point until you have taken the time to inform yourself.

    There is no SAG , as reported to me by britishfencing and by bucs itself... There is just an admin group for running bucs competition... Which you are principal on.

    Kind regards
    Mark
    Sorry Alex, looks like itís all YOUR fault now. Remember it was all MY fault last time this uninformed, self-important wind bag had a go (and thatís the polite edit...).

    Simply holding an opinion doesnít mean anyone else cares what it is Mark. Please crawl back under the rock you came from.

    Without wasting my breath too much on reirating the points from all our previous discussions, we are volunteers who do this for the good of the sport.

    Precisely what are you doing for the greater good of the sport that doesnít line your pockets? For the avoidance of doubt, that is rhetorical, I never ask a question I donít already know the answer to.
    Karma is a wonderful thing

  11. #11
    Senior Member randomsabreur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Devon
    Posts
    2,099

    Default

    I am not a coach but I am a referee and former fencer who fenced at BUSA as it then was for 4 years. As a top 10 sabreur back when WS was not in the teams (finally got a team in my final year) I had the "fun" of scoring many hits in a team match at sabre and trying to stop my equivalent at epee from destroying me (i.e. waste 3 minutes).

    It was quite a good game slowing down the good foilists!

    The toughest teams other than the have 3 of every weapon variety were those with one "star" at each weapon because the other 2 "stars" we're usually competent enough at all 3. I do remember a varsity match where Cambridge had a lethal sabre team but Oxford had a similarly lethal epee team. It all came down to foil...

    With good coaching a team of good fencers at foil and epee could be very difficult for a sabre team to destroy - but the coach has to understand enough sabre to know how to mess with the sabreurs' heads!
    Last Competition: Bristol L8
    Next Competition: Dunno

  12. #12
    Paul Sibert Foilling Around's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Lead Performance Coach at Nottingham University
    Posts
    5,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Ok enough

    B.u.c.s fencing is in serious need of a radical overhaul ! Discuss

    To illustrate my point some salient facts ;

    1 - a strong sabre section can dominate the match , there is therefor a weighting that favours sabre under current format.
    You do have a certain point here. The points differential can build up much more in Sabre and playing for NonC or limiting the score is not an option

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    2 - experienced fencers from abroad consistently communicate their bemusement and in most cases derision of our university fencing format.
    Or perhaps you tell them how shit it is and they nod their heads because they can't be bothered arguing with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    3 - let's say a team does fantastically in 2016/17 season and gets promoted... Then what happens when next season all of the original team has left the uni and complete beginners are fielded in league quite out of their depth.
    Luck of the draw old chap. Absolutely no way you can predict who is going to be where the next year. I have one top draw fencer signed up for next year, but every year I have complete unknowns turn up who end up pivotal to my teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    4 - a university wanting to start bucs matches needs buy electric kit all sizes and all weapons to suit male and female teams potentially competing at same time on same day so no sharing kit... Big budget shakedown
    So they introduce it gradually. Warwick and Leicester both do beginners competitions and I hope that is replicated elsewhere. When the club gets big enough it can enter leagues. If you ask most Unis they will be happy to help. I have given help and advice to Lincoln this year to help them get started in the Leagues and offered any practical kit help we can manage.

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    5 - some teams ( unlike lucky london ) have to travel hours to and for for matches .. Different format would ennable multiple matches ( which some do under own initiative but not ideal format )
    Crickey! Thank goodness you are not in Edinburgh if you're moaning at travelling from London. Again, there has to be travelling what do you suggest some kind of virtual fencing so we can all sit at home and fence each other on-line!! The current structure of Local 2 leagues, Regional 1 leagues and National Prem Leagues works OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    6 - the individuals, despite being one of biggest event fencing wise, only gives points for top 4 .... Nuts L16 better surely ?
    Agree, Last 8 at least. And do you really this the Advisory Group has not been pushing for this? BUCS is a big beast and they want consistency across individual sports, so Badminton, Table Tennis etc get the same as us - medals only score points.

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Maybe I haven't thought of something , so If I am treading on someone's toes pls forgive.. Otherwise I think the whole idea needs taking out and shooting as it could be done a whole lot better.
    There isn't even a current SAG.. Sports advisory group .. Liaising properly between BF
    So are you really going to say again that Jen, Alex, Andy and I don't have a handle on what is happening within British Fencing, like you did last time? Claiming that I didn't know enough about University fencing to be able to offer an opinion. And to be honest the idea of splitting the leagues up into individual weapons is frankly barmy. The logistics would be stupid and simply would not solve you problem of fencers getting promotion and then leaving.

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    This is a whole field of fencing that is being overlooked ( apart from some funding driven participation projects that promote 'themed' fencing ) - I think American approach good idea .. University's have funds and like sports that can win bucs points.
    And what do you know? There is work going on to look at how to integrate university fencing with the new iteration of the talent development system. The American approach to sport is TOTALLY different, which is why American parents will pay thousands of dollars a year on their kid's fencing to try to get a scholarship. We are nowhere near that situation!

    Do I sound like I have taken this personally, yes I do!!

    Now Plenty, you probably think it is because you have hit a raw nerve as Jen, Alex and I have all had a go at you. But let's be honest, although the system is not perfect and it frustrated the hell out of me when I had to take just 3 fencers to Durham to be walloped on a Wednesday afternoon, none of the kind of solutions you have ever put forward make sense. Universities are never going to absolutely prioritise sport, students are always going to prioritise their studies (and quite right too) and splitting to individual weapons would be crazy as well as ruining the camaraderie of the sport.

    I've spent enough time on this - I've got better things to do now - goodbye.
    British Fencing AASE Assessor
    British Fencing Coach Developer

    Veteran Foil Champion of Szombathely 2015 and 2016!!

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    910

    Cool

    Ok
    Thank you for contributions
    If the milk tastes sour am not the kind of pussy to drink it

    Paul, you swear and are abusive - you handle rankings for britishfencing and are also member of the non existent 'SAG' group above - as is Alex too. I think it's bad form to just berate your way through arguments rather than reason.




    Gav , as moderator ( but also quite persistent offender vis above ) I would ask you to moderate here but I don't expect much from you either. I would have liked a thread without it being derailed by usual league of morons but hey

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Lincolnshire
    Posts
    1,567

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Paul ....... you handle rankings for britishfencing and are also member of the ..... 'SAG' group above - as is Alex too.
    It's good that you recognise the hard work both Paul and Alex carry out in their respective volunteer duties to help promote and develop fencing in this country.

    Perhaps instead of berating them both on an annual basis it might be good to see the impact of your volunteer efforts building on the range of ideas you share on the forum, and helping evidence that these ideas are supported by the community at large. Constant sniping doesn't improve the sport for anyone IMHO.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Warwick uni
    Posts
    209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Hi alex,

    In regards to your response to point 1- above

    The nature of sabre means that points can be scored much more quickly and easily than other weapons .. It's a big advantage for a team to have one excellent sabreur , the effect is exponential ... Pls speak to experienced coaches about this and inform yourself before responding.
    Hi Mark,
    Your attitude is appalling. Savin is involved with fencing at the highest level, including coaches that are more than "experienced." I will not go down the route of comparing coaches. I would listen to him, and the coaches whose company he keeps, long before I would listen to you. I am sure many others would agree with me

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Warwick uni
    Posts
    209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Ok
    I would have liked a thread without it being derailed by usual league of morons but hey
    I just..... What have you ever produced to talk to people like this?

  17. #17
    Paul Sibert Foilling Around's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Lead Performance Coach at Nottingham University
    Posts
    5,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Ok The only mild expletive I used was not directed AT you.

    Paul, you swear and are abusive - you handle rankings for britishfencing and are also member of the non existent 'SAG' group above - as is Alex too. I think it's bad form to just berate your way through arguments rather than reason.

    Gav , as moderator ( but also quite persistent offender vis above ) I would ask you to moderate here but I don't expect much from you either. I would have liked a thread without it being derailed by usual league of morons but hey
    Firstly, the only mild swear word I used to was not directed at you, but used as a description of what you think about the current state of BUCS fencing - Do you deny that you think it is shit? You're the one who's just referred to me as a moron.

    I am not a British Fencing Employee and whilst I have a decent knowledge of what goes on, I reserve the right to criticise BF as well as support them as I see necessary.

    If you actually bothered to think about what I wrote, there was reason behind everything I said. I actually supported you over the BUCS nationals points and agreed about the dominance of sabre.

    You gave no solutions to the entry barriers for new institutions entering fencing, whereas I gave two positive ways it can be done gradually under the current system.

    But my reasoning behind not splitting weapons is that it would a) be a logistical nightmare and b) destroy the cross weapon camaraderie of university fencing and c) probably mean that fencers could not do more that one weapon.

    Did I put my points over in a dismissive and scathing way? You bet I did!

    Why - because numerous people give you the same answers year after year and you don't take them on board. If you can come up with a positive plan which is thought through then we will be prepared to listen - but all you do is moan because, I suspect, you just want to focus on foil.

    Incidentally if BUCS say we don't exist, why are we on this page on their website?
    British Fencing AASE Assessor
    British Fencing Coach Developer

    Veteran Foil Champion of Szombathely 2015 and 2016!!

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    596

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    I would have liked a thread without it being derailed by usual league of morons but hey
    Don't be ridiculous. Every stupid thread you post here ends up the same stupid way. The common theme is you, not the usual league.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    910

    Default

    Shocking

    The point is is that bucs fencing is not fit for purpose.

    At the very least there is room for significant improvement -

    The fact that there is significant self interest for some individuals in their 'fiefdoms' and that such disrespectful and frankly rude conduct is another matter.. It's a reflection on the professionalism of those involved at the important levels within our sport.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    The fact that there is significant self interest for some individuals in their 'fiefdoms' and that such disrespectful and frankly rude conduct is another matter.. It's a reflection on the professionalism of those involved at the important levels within our sport.

    Ooh, if I get to act in my own self-interest; would you like to run BUCS Individuals this year for me so that I can extend my stay in California?

    Thanks!

    PS: Obviously I don't mean this; I have no intention of handing the reins over to you or to anyone without an appropriate handover period.

    PPS: To adapt a quote from you -
    Quote Originally Posted by plenty
    Pls speak to experienced event managers about this and inform yourself before responding

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •