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Thread: 15 better than 10?

  1. #1

    Default 15 better than 10?

    The standard and numbers competing in veterans competitions has increased greatly since its inception over 20 years ago. There is also now a 40-49 category in the European championships.
    I believe that the time has come to consider bringing Veterans fencing in line with all the other categories of fencers and make DE fights up to 15 hits rather than the current 10.

  2. #2
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Good discussion on Veteran's chat

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602...87625/?fref=nf
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    Is there any way this can be imported to the Forum for those of us not on Facebook?
    If not, might it be summarised please?

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    ***** Legend hokers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Silverman View Post
    Is there any way this can be imported to the Forum for those of us not on Facebook?
    If not, might it be summarised please?

    Broad agreement from most that 15 would be better, 20+ commentors in favour.
    One says it would advantage the younger vets.
    One says 15 i intimidating due to fitness levels.
    One says it would make events take too long - rebuttal about why Vet Euros should have no numbers restriction.
    Some discussion about how the change would need to be put to the FIE veterans organisation by a national governing body.

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    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokers View Post
    Some discussion about how the change would need to be put to the FIE veterans organisation by a national governing body.
    I pointed out that it would be a bad idea for us to change in the UK, without it changing internationally, as our fencers would be dis-advantaged by not being used to first to 10 DEs.

    In terms of actual actions having happened is that the issue is going on the next BVF committee agenda, with the suggestion for BVF to propose the change to the FIE Veterans group if the committee agrees it is a good idea (or after suitable survey/input from the BVF membership).

    Things may not happen immediately but some action going ahead.

    Side discussion on why most people would like DEs changed to 15, but also why we also keep the poule unique format (5 hits only) for the BVF age-group championships, as if 10s are too short for fights, why have an event which only goes to 5 hits.. Not logical..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokers View Post
    Broad agreement from most that 15 would be better, 20+ commentors in favour.
    One says it would advantage the younger vets.
    One says 15 i intimidating due to fitness levels.
    One says it would make events take too long - rebuttal about why Vet Euros should have no numbers restriction.
    Some discussion about how the change would need to be put to the FIE veterans organisation by a national governing body.
    Many thanks.
    How about best of 3 bouts to 5 hits with a 30 second break in between? This would seem to cover most objections.

  7. #7
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Silverman View Post
    Many thanks.
    How about best of 3 bouts to 5 hits with a 30 second break in between? This would seem to cover most objections.
    Back to the 1980's..

    And the boxes are not programmed to do 30 second breaks, so a no-goer on a practical equipment basis..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    Back to the 1980's..

    And the boxes are not programmed to do 30 second breaks, so a no-goer on a practical equipment basis..
    Is this unsuperable? Box timings have been changed.
    What about the merits? Not everything from the 80's was bad

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    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Silverman View Post
    Is this unsuperable? Box timings have been changed.
    I doubt that the box makers will want to go through the huge expense of making this change, just for Veterans, also all of the hand-held controllers would need to have new signage for 30 second breaks.

    This was a system which was superseded years ago and straight DEs (15s or even 10s) is certainly better and more understandable to the viewing public which all sports need to try to get to watch.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    I doubt that the box makers will want to go through the huge expense of making this change, just for Veterans, also all of the hand-held controllers would need to have new signage for 30 second breaks.

    This was a system which was superseded years ago and straight DEs (15s or even 10s) is certainly better and more understandable to the viewing public which all sports need to try to get to watch.
    Point taken. Thanks.

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    ***** Legend hokers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    Back to the 1980's..

    And the boxes are not programmed to do 30 second breaks, so a no-goer on a practical equipment basis..
    Come on Chris, this is far too closed-minded. I'm 100% sure that a referee would be able to manage restarting the fight after 30s rather than waiting for a full minute, even if they have to reset the whole thing and put the score in again. This is not an insurmountable technical problem.

    You have to make more of a case for why 15 hit DEs are better than 3x5-point bouts, just saying it's better isn't enough IMO. Also there are no watching members of the public, let's be honest about this. As it happens, I'd prefer 15, but I can see how 3x5 alleviates some of the objections about fatigue in veterans fencing.

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    Fitness and fatigue apply to all sports at all levels. It should not be legislated out of competitive Veteran's fencing. (Is the apostrophe ok?)
    The longer I do it the harder it gets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokers View Post
    Come on Chris, this is far too closed-minded. I'm 100% sure that a referee would be able to manage restarting the fight after 30s rather than waiting for a full minute, even if they have to reset the whole thing and put the score in again. This is not an insurmountable technical problem.

    You have to make more of a case for why 15 hit DEs are better than 3x5-point bouts, just saying it's better isn't enough IMO. Also there are no watching members of the public, let's be honest about this. As it happens, I'd prefer 15, but I can see how 3x5 alleviates some of the objections about fatigue in veterans fencing.
    I used to fence 3 lots of 5s when I started doing Opens. The weird thing was that you could score 14 hits against your opponent to their 10 and still lose your match. Was hard to understand and confusing for anyone watching to know what the scores were.

    The fights to 15 are fairer as the highest scoring fencer wins.

    As for fatigue, a close 3 lots of 5 hits with 2 * 30 second breaks would result in less recovery time than a 15 with 2 * one minute breaks. Will not help with fatigue.

    I simply found, as was the opinion of all the fencers in my peer group at the time that 15s were an improvement.

    Making things more complicated just for the sake of it does not make sense. Moving more to streamline in with general fencing has to be a better option.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  14. #14

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    When I started it was first to 10 but two clear or maximum of 12 if it got to 9-9.

    Then there was 3x5 - as Cesh says you could outscore your opponent overall and still lose! (It was also up to 6 if it got to 4-4 if I remember correctly)

    15 is by far and away the best format for me. Opportunity for tactics to change and breaks can allow a re-group with advice if needed.

  15. #15

    Default fights to 15

    Quote Originally Posted by graham paul View Post
    The standard and numbers competing in veterans competitions has increased greatly since its inception over 20 years ago. There is also now a 40-49 category in the European championships.
    I believe that the time has come to consider bringing Veterans fencing in line with all the other categories of fencers and make DE fights up to 15 hits rather than the current 10.
    I agree with Graham that we should move to 15 hits. This not only brings us in line with the senior fencing it also takes away the stigma that veterans fencers are in some way unable to do this. However this is only the tip of a bigger iceberg.

    The level of international veterans fencing improves year on year and athlete conditioning is part and parcel part of this improvement. For those representing GB they should be in the best condition they can and this means training--pure and simple. Being a veterans fencer on the international stage should be motivation in itself to be the best you can. If training is not what you want to do then by all means fence recreationally, there is no stigma to that worthy aim. However lets try and get the best athletes representing our country at International events such as the World and Europeans and put in place a proper selection method (running a rolling ranking system--like the seniors) and a proper training set up (training camp/ fitness schedules).

    I would also like to see us properly fund a more professional GB set up at say the Worlds and Europeans. This would involve a funded Team manager,Coach and Physio. This could be funded by both a levy on membership and a donation system being put in place. Lets stop being happy amateurs and adopt a more professional structure and set up fit for how International Vets fencing is rapidly becoming.If you want a glimpse of this in action now look at the USA Vets set up.

    By way of getting this going could I suggest paper is presented to the membership on how we could achieve this?
    I see the creation of a GB Performance manager as the first step. I would have no hesitation in nominating Graham Paul (assuming he wants this !) to set the blue print for this renaissance of SUCCESSFUL GB veterans fencing. He has the passion and a huge amount of experience in formulating a successful strategy and structure.
    I welcome comments on this.
    Paul Wedge

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwedge View Post
    I agree with Graham that we should move to 15 hits. This not only brings us in line with the senior fencing it also takes away the stigma that veterans fencers are in some way unable to do this. However this is only the tip of a bigger iceberg.

    The level of international veterans fencing improves year on year and athlete conditioning is part and parcel part of this improvement. For those representing GB they should be in the best condition they can and this means training--pure and simple. Being a veterans fencer on the international stage should be motivation in itself to be the best you can. If training is not what you want to do then by all means fence recreationally, there is no stigma to that worthy aim. However lets try and get the best athletes representing our country at International events such as the World and Europeans and put in place a proper selection method (running a rolling ranking system--like the seniors) and a proper training set up (training camp/ fitness schedules).

    I would also like to see us properly fund a more professional GB set up at say the Worlds and Europeans. This would involve a funded Team manager,Coach and Physio. This could be funded by both a levy on membership and a donation system being put in place. Lets stop being happy amateurs and adopt a more professional structure and set up fit for how International Vets fencing is rapidly becoming.If you want a glimpse of this in action now look at the USA Vets set up.

    By way of getting this going could I suggest paper is presented to the membership on how we could achieve this?
    I see the creation of a GB Performance manager as the first step. I would have no hesitation in nominating Graham Paul (assuming he wants this !) to set the blue print for this renaissance of SUCCESSFUL GB veterans fencing. He has the passion and a huge amount of experience in formulating a successful strategy and structure.
    I welcome comments on this.
    Paul Wedge
    *Grabs Popcorn*

  17. #17
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwedge View Post
    I agree with Graham that we should move to 15 hits. This not only brings us in line with the senior fencing it also takes away the stigma that veterans fencers are in some way unable to do this.
    A bad idea for us to change in the UK, without it changing internationally first, as our fencers would be dis-advantaged by not being used to first to 10 DEs.

    If veterans want to fence to 15, surely they can fence at normal opens in the UK.

    I like fencing both 10s and 15s, slightly different tactical outlook, so good to do both IMHO.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  18. #18
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwedge View Post
    The level of international veterans fencing improves year on year and athlete conditioning is part and parcel part of this improvement. For those representing GB they should be in the best condition they can and this means training--pure and simple. Being a veterans fencer on the international stage should be motivation in itself to be the best you can. If training is not what you want to do then by all means fence recreationally, there is no stigma to that worthy aim. However lets try and get the best athletes representing our country at International events such as the World and Europeans and put in place a proper selection method (running a rolling ranking system--like the seniors) and a proper training set up (training camp/ fitness schedules).

    I would also like to see us properly fund a more professional GB set up at say the Worlds and Europeans. This would involve a funded Team manager,Coach and Physio. This could be funded by both a levy on membership and a donation system being put in place. Lets stop being happy amateurs and adopt a more professional structure and set up fit for how International Vets fencing is rapidly becoming.If you want a glimpse of this in action now look at the USA Vets set up.

    By way of getting this going could I suggest paper is presented to the membership on how we could achieve this?
    I see the creation of a GB Performance manager as the first step. I would have no hesitation in nominating Graham Paul (assuming he wants this !) to set the blue print for this renaissance of SUCCESSFUL GB veterans fencing. He has the passion and a huge amount of experience in formulating a successful strategy and structure.
    I welcome comments on this.
    Paul Wedge

    I think this really should have it's own thread rather than putting on the end of a 10 or 15 hit thread.

    Interesting and in some ways quite a scary proposal..
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  19. #19

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    15 would advantage the younger vets
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwedge View Post
    The level of international veterans fencing improves year on year and athlete conditioning is part and parcel part of this improvement. For those representing GB they should be in the best condition they can and this means training--pure and simple. Being a veterans fencer on the international stage should be motivation in itself to be the best you can. If training is not what you want to do then by all means fence recreationally, there is no stigma to that worthy aim. However lets try and get the best athletes representing our country at International events such as the World and Europeans and put in place a proper selection method (running a rolling ranking system--like the seniors) and a proper training set up (training camp/ fitness schedules).

    I would also like to see us properly fund a more professional GB set up at say the Worlds and Europeans. This would involve a funded Team manager,Coach and Physio. This could be funded by both a levy on membership and a donation system being put in place. Lets stop being happy amateurs and adopt a more professional structure and set up fit for how International Vets fencing is rapidly becoming.If you want a glimpse of this in action now look at the USA Vets set up.

    By way of getting this going could I suggest paper is presented to the membership on how we could achieve this?
    I see the creation of a GB Performance manager as the first step. I would have no hesitation in nominating Graham Paul (assuming he wants this !) to set the blue print for this renaissance of SUCCESSFUL GB veterans fencing. He has the passion and a huge amount of experience in formulating a successful strategy and structure.
    I welcome comments on this.
    Paul Wedge
    In today's climate and the unfunded state fencing finds itself in, if and I doubt the Veteran membership would go for it, if these suggestions went ahead Veteran Fencing would be more professional driven than the main governing body.
    But it certainly will be interesting to see what active vets have to say about the proposals and especially the levys.

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