Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 48

Thread: Junior Fencers/Coaches Take Note--New Junior Selection Policy- changes

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    474

    Default Junior Fencers/Coaches Take Note--New Junior Selection Policy- changes

    Junior fencers and their coaches should take note of a draft of a Junior Selection Policy that British Fencing has just posted.

    It is on the website and the closing date for feedback is May 16: http://britishfencing.com/news/latest-news/?n=1863

    The proposed changes are significant, a two-tier ranking point system appears to be proposed, the Junior squads will not simply be chosen by going down the rankings, and there is much more discretion provided in selection. As well there are nominated team competitions that differ from nominated individual competitions.

    Please if you have any interest in this age group, read this document and feed back your view to BF asap. The May 16 deadline does not leave much time for a document that proposes some very radical changes.

    From where I sit, it strikes me as odd that BF would seek to impose more discretion and would also seek to shift from using the rankings as the benchmark. Perhaps other forum members have different perspectives. In any event, I would urge those impacted to take note of this and provide feedback.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jon Willis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    London
    Posts
    661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleetfoot View Post
    there is much more discretion provided in selection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleetfoot View Post
    it strikes me as odd that BF would seek to impose more discretion and would also seek to shift from using the rankings as the benchmark.
    Point 19 of the document

    19. One discretionary place may be nominated to the JST by the ADT. Factors that may be taken into account include but are not limited to:
    - Recent results
    - Previous GBR team performances
    - Injury/illness Ė e.g. athlete returning from injury
    Junior Selection Policy - Draft
    - Commitment to a documented training plan
    - Attendance at GBR Development Camps
    - Team Strategy Ė e.g. skills to perform a specific role within the team event, opportunity to
    trial new team members
    - Performance Trajectory Ė recent significant improvements in performances and results
    - Demonstrable commitment to BF values
    The ADT is not required to use this discretionary place.
    That's 1 discretionary place.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Willis View Post
    Point 19 of the document



    That's 1 discretionary place.
    There's discretionary decision making in multiple areas:

    5.2

    9. Fencers must be aged 17 on the 1st January 2019 by the date of the competition to be
    considered for selection for that competition.
    The exception would be
    1. where the ADT, identifies an athlete whose development would be significantly hindered by
    non-selection
    2. where the ADT, determines that the weapon team development strategy and the athlete
    development supports the selection of a younger athlete
    3. U20 JWCs hosted in GB Ė eg the Eden Cup.

    Section 7, 30:

    If there are more than four fencers who have reached the qualifying standard for the European
    Championships, the first three fencers with the highest points calculated from the table below
    will be selected. If fencers are on equal points, the highest individual result from the nominated
    junior world cups will count. If results are the same, the fencer with the highest Junior FIE
    World ranking, updated after the last nominated WC will be selected. The fourth fencer will be
    selected by the ADT at their discretion from the remaining qualified fencers.
    (Bold is from me)

    Similarly, 7, 31:

    1. If there are more than four fencers who have reached the qualifying standard for the World
    Championships, the first three fencers with the highest points calculated from the table below
    will be selected. If fencers are on equal points, the highest individual result from the nominated
    junior world cups will count. If results are the same, the fencer with the highest Junior FIE
    World ranking, updated after the last nominated WC, will be selected. The ADT will determine,
    on a weapon-by-weapon basis, whether to select a fourth/reserve place. If the decision is to
    select, this selection will be made by the ADT at their discretion from the remaining qualified
    fencers.

    and 39:

    39. Fencers for the Team events will be selected by the ADT who may take into account any factors
    and results that they feel to be relevant in making the selection.

    41:
    41. For the purpose of selection for both the individual and team events at the 2019 Junior
    European and World Championships, the ADT and JST may in its absolute discretion modify the
    rules for points and the qualifying standard retrospectively where special circumstances affect
    the result of any particular competition (e.g. significantly reduced participation, walk-over
    result, or minimal entry).

    I am posting this so people can be aware of it, read it, and feed back to BF.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleetfoot View Post
    There's discretionary decision making in multiple areas:
    I got that impression too. Although I've not fully digested it all yet, my first impression is that it feels like BF have given themselves a selection opt out clause for every eventuality especially with statements like, "Demonstrable commitment to BF values".

    Even posting this, my commitment might be questioned

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Nottinghamshire
    Posts
    122

    Default

    It's worth mentioning that these discretionary criteria have been in place at least throughout the 17/18 season. Without doing a word by word check, the discretionary selection criteria for the European and World Championships are very similar and possibly identical. The minimum age criterion (I think?) came in for the 17/18 season, though it's been raised from 16 to 17, with a slightly wider list of potential derogations. The JWC team selections were discretionary previously and continue to be.

    The principal difference is that discretionary places for nominated JWCs have, as Jon says, been reduced from 3 (or 6 with a squad of 12) to 1.

    There are, I think, two standout changes:

    The removal of points for L128s in JWCs (which have only been in place for this season) - maybe because BF want to see a bigger distinction between a decent poule performance and winning a DE/tougher DE? It would be interesting to hear the rationale.

    The other is the introduction of the current season ranking list alongside the rolling one. I'm assuming that this is to recognise current form as opposed to last season's form, but may also be to encourage cadets not to chase junior ranking points (and over committing) with a view to the next season?

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by danKew View Post
    I got that impression too.
    For clarification, I mean discretionary exclusion and not discretionary inclusion.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by danKew View Post
    I got that impression too. Although I've not fully digested it all yet, my first impression is that it feels like BF have given themselves a selection opt out clause for every eventuality especially with statements like, "Demonstrable commitment to BF values".

    Even posting this, my commitment might be questioned
    It would be a sad day indeed if intelligent, thoughtful and constructive discussion of the policies of a sport's governing body was considered to be against that sport's values! Surely frank, free and fair comment are the foundations of a just society, and most certainly this cascades down to aspects of civil society, including sport. (Without getting on my high horse or anything ... )

  8. #8
    Member EdwardHyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    inside Henry J
    Posts
    105

    Default

    It is interesting that BF are making their camps compulsory, understandable given the low levels off attendance by the top fencers in the past, but not offering to pay the expenses of the athletes attendance at these mandatory events - as if parents are not hard enough pressed financially.
    These camps have generally been of little value in the past due to attendance standards and the simple fact that the coaches had no idea of the capabilities and techniques of the individuals that they were supposed to coach.
    I am going to assume that in return for this commitment a complete agenda for each camp will be published well in advance (so that personal coaches can see it) together with a list of attendees and a list of the coaches for each weapon.
    .........
    (actually I am not going to assume anything of the kind and be very surprised if anything so sensible happens)

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardHyde View Post
    These camps have generally been of little value in the past due to attendance standards and the simple fact that the coaches had no idea of the capabilities and techniques of the individuals that they were supposed to coach.
    I am going to assume that in return for this commitment a complete agenda for each camp will be published well in advance (so that personal coaches can see it) together with a list of attendees and a list of the coaches for each weapon.
    .........
    (actually I am not going to assume anything of the kind and be very surprised if anything so sensible happens)
    The camps run by BF are very good and do not seem to be similiar to the older national academy training camps. There is much greater structure and organisation as well as greater attendance. In terms of the campsí value, many fencers (as well as parents) have been supportive of the camps, and have been very positive! Iím fairly certain some weapons have received plans for the camps well in advance. It may be worth checking out, the differences are quite clear.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Lincolnshire
    Posts
    1,546

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleetfoot View Post

    The proposed changes are significant, a two-tier ranking point system appears to be proposed, the Junior squads will not simply be chosen by going down the rankings, and there is much more discretion provided in selection. As well there are nominated team competitions that differ from nominated individual competitions.

    Please if you have any interest in this age group, read this document and feed back your view to BF asap. The May 16 deadline does not leave much time for a document that proposes some very radical changes.
    Thanks for highlighting this document. Wow, what a complicated read, but lots of potential holes in past criteria seem to be covered off. Most notably, if you want to be selected to fence for GB you need to maintain attitudes and behaviours befitting of that honour - and unfortunately that hasnít always been the case in recent history.

    The selection criteria using the twin approach of inclusion and exclusion of last years results will be interesting to watch. If I read things correctly this approach supports fencers who achieve good international results to build on for the following year. Discretion does seem to have reduced, as Jon says, to a single place in squads, and the distance of selection down the rankings is also limited if folk in the selection zone turn down their places. The other discretion around Euros and Worlds seems to be the same as in previous years, which should allow full teams to attend rather than have gaps created solely by impractical rules of past regimes.

    Interesting move around 17 year olds for junior trips, increasing from 16, and the ability to send squads of over 18ís only. Not sure how that will play out.

    Just my thoughts for what itís worth.

    Would have preferred a document I didnít need to read several times to understand, but maybe thatís how it had to be.

  11. #11

    Default

    Um,
    As regards calender for season ahead;
    I just spotted that Manchester cadet EFC event seems to be a selection event ( it's in Red as opposed to highlighted green as a 'non nominated international ) .. I am a bit concerned as surely entries to Manchester cadet won't be limited to selected GB squad only ?
    Any comments welcome otherwise will call headoffice for clarity.
    Kind regards
    Mark

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Nottinghamshire
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plenty View Post
    Um,
    As regards calender for season ahead;
    I just spotted that Manchester cadet EFC event seems to be a selection event ( it's in Red as opposed to highlighted green as a 'non nominated international ) .. I am a bit concerned as surely entries to Manchester cadet won't be limited to selected GB squad only ?
    Any comments welcome otherwise will call headoffice for clarity.
    Kind regards
    Mark
    I imagine that it's business as usual - it wouldn't make any sense (financial or otherwise) to limit it to 15. If it were a non nominated international it wouldn't count for points. There isn't a selection date in the right hand box. So it's in its own little category and presumably entry is up to the quota of (?) 64.

  13. #13
    Initiate
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Battersea, London
    Posts
    21

    Default

    I think raising the selection bar on points and behavior is a good thing.
    On the whole, are we good enough. I see some fencers working there butt off but I also see other that donít deserve to share the changing room let alone the piste.. We have some sublime coaches on this island of ours and we have the facilities to match.
    The ultimate goal is the Olympics.. Címon guys. We have to work our butts off in all quarters.
    Why do we take our kids to foreign camps in Italy, Hungary, Poland or Germany. Is it the coaches... No, itís the work ethic of the other fencers.

    I cannot think of any fencing parent that Iím aware of that would refuse lodging my boy if asked and I wouldnít refuse any fencer help to attend a London camp.

    The bottom line. Work,Want, Determination and Tenacity. Everything on the piste is equal and only those four things determine the eventual winner.

  14. #14

    Default

    Hello sameer's D

    I as a coach am quite nervous of 'pushy' parents -- after fifteen yrs in the job I have seen many instances where parents , although very well intentioned , completely derail and debilitate their childrens fencing.

    On your message ; Overseas and good domestic camps are really good and I would say probably the most crucial ingredient to making a strong fencer. They provide plenty of high pressure sparring opportunities but in a setting where the students can practice without fear of losing ( such as at competition ). However it's important to have some flexibility -- the Italian senior fencers will have wine with lunch and some a sneaky cigarette between first and second Poules.

    I know one fencer for GB who ; when directed to fill out the fitness plan for BritishFencing ; put 'walking the dog very day by the river'. Luckily his coach intercepted this and helped him creatively. But this fencer was a champion downhill skier... Who didn't respond at all well to 'boot camp' circuit training etc, and who, although completely laconic and super laid back , came alive on the piste. The more pressure the environment the better he fenced.

    What I am trying to say is that after 15 yrs ( and I have coached in Hungarian , Italian and French clubs, not just as visitor but for weeks/months at a time ) is that firstly it's good to be bit flexible and not judge book by its cover, and that secondly, allowances for cultural differences should be made as there can be very wide variances.


    Your last sentence bottom line misses out the two most crucial ingredients for success in Fencing. Lessons. Lessons. Lessons. Exposure to sophisticated sparring. I know one very established GB coach who says the only fitness he wants his students doing is 'fence'. Apart from a little stretching and conditioning.

  15. #15
    Member EdwardHyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    inside Henry J
    Posts
    105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer's dad View Post
    I think raising the selection bar on points and behavior is a good thing.
    On the whole, are we good enough. I see some fencers working there butt off but I also see other that don’t deserve to share the changing room let alone the piste.. We have some sublime coaches on this island of ours and we have the facilities to match.
    The ultimate goal is the Olympics.. C’mon guys. We have to work our butts off in all quarters.
    Why do we take our kids to foreign camps in Italy, Hungary, Poland or Germany. Is it the coaches... No, it’s the work ethic of the other fencers.

    I cannot think of any fencing parent that I’m aware of that would refuse lodging my boy if asked and I wouldn’t refuse any fencer help to attend a London camp.

    The bottom line. Work,Want, Determination and Tenacity. Everything on the piste is equal and only those four things determine the eventual winner.
    Perhaps you are unaware that some of our best epee coaches (and we don't have many truly good ones for international success) are Hungarian trained, the others at that level are not British. The best foil coach (in results terms) in GB is not British. I know little about sabre but suspect that it is the same story there?

    The message that comes out time & time again is that if you want to be a better fencer go and live in another country & fence with people who are really serious about this sport under coaches who have consistent international success.

    Possibly the youngsters in this country lack the attitude to go off and practice footwork drills on their own as their continental peers do, they might rather put down a couple of sweaters and kick a ball instead as it is less demanding.

    James Davis has been USA domiciled for years, one of our top sabreurs went to Bulgaria to improve, Kruse and most of our successful foilists share a non-British Coach, Georgina Usher herself is Hungarian trained, Jon Willis was based in Germany I think, Laurence Halsted in Denmark (?) and many many others are similar.

    It is wonderful to represent GBR but many at the top end of the sport are about as British as Andy Murray in terms of their training and development.

  16. #16
    Senior Member JackSparrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Shipwrecked
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doll View Post
    The camps run by BF are very good and do not seem to be similiar to the older national academy training camps. There is much greater structure and organisation as well as greater attendance. In terms of the campsí value, many fencers (as well as parents) have been supportive of the camps, and have been very positive! Iím fairly certain some weapons have received plans for the camps well in advance. It may be worth checking out, the differences are quite clear.
    Excellent post! With the new talent camps, Chris G has done an impressive job of getting the personal coaches onboard and Rob Cawdron has really helped with the logistics, to ensure that the days are well planned and smooth running. I think they've put a really good team together. The current Talent Coaches are:

    Epee:
    John Rees
    Alex Agrenich
    Lavinia Puiu
    Iuliana Cocora
    Olga Campafreda
    Marc Chapman

    Foil:
    Chris Galesloot
    Linda Strachan
    Sarah Paveley
    Adam Blight
    Alex Beardmore
    Donnie McKenzie
    John Routledge
    Paul Sibert
    Pierre Harper
    Tim Miles

    Sabre:
    Jon Salfield
    Ian Williams
    James Williams
    Stuart Marshall
    Beth Davidson
    Sarah Ellis
    Nat Lewis
    Henry Talbot

    Mixed:
    Jonathan Katz
    Rob Cawdron
    Savvy!

  17. #17
    Member EdwardHyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    inside Henry J
    Posts
    105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JackSparrow View Post
    Excellent post! With the new talent camps, Chris G has done an impressive job of getting the personal coaches onboard and Rob Cawdron has really helped with the logistics, to ensure that the days are well planned and smooth running. I think they've put a really good team together. The current Talent Coaches are:

    Epee:
    John Rees
    Alex Agrenich
    Lavinia Puiu
    Iuliana Cocora
    Olga Campafreda
    Marc Chapman

    Foil:
    Chris Galesloot
    Linda Strachan
    Sarah Paveley
    Adam Blight
    Alex Beardmore
    Donnie McKenzie
    John Routledge
    Paul Sibert
    Pierre Harper
    Tim Miles

    Sabre:
    Jon Salfield
    Ian Williams
    James Williams
    Stuart Marshall
    Beth Davidson
    Sarah Ellis
    Nat Lewis
    Henry Talbot

    Mixed:
    Jonathan Katz
    Rob Cawdron
    Thank you Captain

    This information certainly ticks one box.

    A very useful post (not sure what Chris G does in this area for epee & sabre?), some good names there and some unknowns.
    I have a lot of respect for Rob Cawdron and I know that he will do a dedicated job for the TP.

    If we looked at these coaches what would we find in their success records on the international circuit and are they currently coaching the top fencers in their weapons, if not would it be better to have those fencers coaches involved?

    If some of the coaches are not known for success why are they there and why take up our young athletes time which might be better spent with their own coaches? A few hours twice a year is not going to give a deep and meaningful understanding of each other to either the coaches or the fencers.

    A visit to the BF Junior page can also be very informative as to who is making decisions at youth level. http://www.britishfencing.com/GBR/juniors/key_contacts/

  18. #18

    Default

    I think that if the TP camps are working well and providing fencers with a tangible benefit, then fencers will attend to gain that benefit. What I believe to be wrong is making attendance to these camps mandatory for GBR selection.

    IMO, the TP days are still finding their feet, and epee is short of a Talent Pathway Coach & Weapon Manager so making them compulsory isn't the right approach at this point in time.

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardHyde View Post

    Possibly the youngsters in this country lack the attitude to go off and practice footwork drills on their own as their continental peers do, they might rather put down a couple of sweaters and kick a ball instead as it is less demanding.
    Agree, but also I think it's down to the infrastructure available to them. If you look at other countries, kids are able to go to the salle after school to practice everyday. Salles are owned and operated by coaches who see fencing as a legitimate full time job.

    Whilst there are a couple of examples of this being the case in the UK there are simply not enough clubs like this catching enough kids to give them the opportunities their European/US cousins have.

    Yes it's a matter of dedication and commitment, I think those elements are probably the principle ingredients of a good athlete, but our youngsters also need the facilities to channel their dedication effectively. This, in my opinion is where the NGB should be focusing it's efforts.

    Set up more salles across the country, set up centres of excellence with maximum catchment areas with fully funded, full time coaches which are open more than three days a week. Give our youngsters a chance to demonstrate their dedication.

    This should be the priority above all else at the moment. Just look at the (relative) success Truro have been able to generate with access to a relatively small population but with a full time dedicated fencing programme.

    Obviously this kind of set up would need a sacrifice in other areas of spending. This is something which should be considered. Currently we have one world class athlete. The horizon looks bleak for British fencing without a complete rethink of how we approach training and inclusion across the country.

  20. #20
    Initiate
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Battersea, London
    Posts
    21

    Default

    I think my comment was not understood. Coaches in this country are great but I never mentioned nationalities.
    We know how foreign camps work. We know the work ethic and yes we are easily sidetracked.
    My son is always asked, what competitions does he want to do. When I meet him from school. Itís his choice to go to fencing or not. Because it is his sport not mine. The minute I take or make them decisions. Is the day that I could impact his love for this sport.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •