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Thread: ADP now mandatory for GBR Cadet Selection?

  1. #1

    Default ADP now mandatory for GBR Cadet Selection?

    Does anyone know or have you heard that ADP is now part of the GBR Cadet selection?

    I've been looking thru the 2019-20 GBR Cadets Selection policy (up for consultation).
    It seems to have grown from 5 pages to 10 pages!

    Difficult to know as the new policy consultation announcement doesn't reference easily the previous policy.

    Consultation announcement: https://www.britishfencing.com/consu...-and-policies/
    Proposed new policy: https://www.britishfencing.com/wp-co...Draft-v0.7.pdf
    Old policy: http://britishfencing.com/uploads/fi...2018-19_v4.pdf

  2. #2
    Chris Howser cesh_fencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akster View Post
    Does anyone know or have you heard that ADP is now part of the GBR Cadet selection?
    Not sure what you have read for the title of this thread.

    All I can see is

    'For team selections for the Cadet European Championships and any discretionary individual selections, attendance at ADP training camps will be taken into account. ' which is just one of many considerations as it has been in past years..

    then that is repeated in the sections.

    I do not see anywhere that it says that if you do not attend ADP camps you will not be selected.

    Obviously when it comes to Discretionary Selections and places on team events, being know by the ADP coaches by attending ADP sessions has generally got to be positive, especially for teams as team fencing is an area the ADP sessions really work on.
    Oundle, Peterborough & Stamford Fencing

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by cesh_fencing View Post
    Not sure what you have read for the title of this thread.

    All I can see is

    'For team selections for the Cadet European Championships and any discretionary individual selections, attendance at ADP training camps will be taken into account. ' which is just one of many considerations as it has been in past years..

    then that is repeated in the sections.

    I do not see anywhere that it says that if you do not attend ADP camps you will not be selected.

    Obviously when it comes to Discretionary Selections and places on team events, being know by the ADP coaches by attending ADP sessions has generally got to be positive, especially for teams as team fencing is an area the ADP sessions really work on.
    I think there are four discretionary places proposed for individual nominated EFC cadet competitions.
    Summarised in Appendix A page 10 but in the main text too.

    In the governance section "Advising CST in relation to discretionary individual or team selections"
    I am not sure it says just for team places it sort of says "or". For euros I guess you could be discretionary for team and not be at the qualifying standard for individual but also get an individual place on discretion.

    https://www.britishfencing.com/wp-co...Draft-v0.7.pdf

    As I wrote on the the why have discretion over 20 or 15 places thread.

    "I think if the squad is 15. You have to be in the top 11 to not require the discretionary place. Which I guess means you need to be in the ADP or somehow known by the ADP if in positions 11 or lower?
    What is the selection criteria for the ADP in the season before the current season?

    Which I guess is why I asked is being in the ADP now mandatory for cadets. But maybe its mandatory for the season before current season?"

    Although I guess you could rely on someone higher than 11 getting a discretionary place. but that doesnt make too much sense to me...

  4. #4

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    Does candidate 16 get selected?

    If the top 15 in the rankings were selected - invites sent out etc. Can it be assumed that the ADT has exercised its right to select up to 4 discretionary places at this point? Should any of the first selected 15 cadets decline. Can cadet 16 assume they will get the next available slot? What if candidate 16 wasn't known to the ADT? But candidate 17 was. Solid fencer 17...

    In some ways I prefer the way the Selection procedure in section 18 has been written. It is pretty clear english (remember the plain english campaign? Brexit in the making?) compared to some selection procedures I have read. However they try to deal with most of the likely scenarios in an unambiguous way.

    Incidentally based on what I observed last year. Depending on population size the point scheme tends to make regions 16-20 a hot zone - a very hot zone. The slight tinkering to the points scheme I don't believe will make too much difference. Maybe a topic worth visiting another time. Candidate 16 has an interesting slot. Power of 2. And the points scheme also has a lot of 2's in it ...

    Luckily I am not asked to advise people on whether ADP participation is mandatory in a professional capacity. But if someone had asked me last year is the ADP mandatory and I said no and I then saw this proposed policy I am not sure what I would say. It may not say you will not be selected for not attending an ADP last year or this year. But it never would. Would it? There are always people who will met the qualification standard (you would hope). I think you need to look at the question as "is it required" based a on percentage risk of a scenario happening and how many discretionary slots there are. For scenarios either for this year or next year. Risk assessment wise I would have to say they are too many scenarios in the selection process where your selection could be affected by someone else being preferred by the ADT. Both at the top of the rankings and from 11 downwards.

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    Senior Member ChrisHeaps's Avatar
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    I'll save you from arguing with yourself Akie! Forum participation is not what it used to be

    I have some form in this area with regards last years selection scheme. Firstly I applaud you for taking such a keen interest. Last time when I had the opportunity to feedback on the previous junior policy I skim read it and assumed that it would support the progress of fencers foremost and not have anything radically stupid. Well, I paid for that mistake heavily.

    Is discretionary defined? Last year, after an uncharacteristic average start to the season and missing an early comp (and a rule about no carry over at all..RANT...and not taking 12 when they said they'd take 12 RANT!!!!)....[pauses to calm down].....I was in the position where we'd need to apply for a discretionary for the first nominated JWC. However there was only one discretionary spot available and to get that spot I was told you would need supporting reasons from an established list of acceptable reasons. Another fencer who I knew to be equally capable but had an even worse start also needed that spot and also had better supporting reasons than the teenage angst I was trying to deal with. (Actually many a good fencer has dropped out of fencing altogether for this very reason but credit to BF they seem to be aware of that now looking at recent initiatives)

    So having illustrated the flavours of discretionary spots are the ADP ones this season the type where you need an established acceptable reason in support or are they completely open to the ADP without the need for the fencer to make a formal application?

    As far as the new scheme goes which I've just skim read so far I welcome the fact that all the crap from last year has gone and it definitely seems a step back in the right direction.


    I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want to send your fencer to at least some of the ADP's. You don't have to do all of them. We sometimes skip the further away ones for cost reasons and also miss during exams times. I don't think they're perfect yet but they are great sparring opportunities at the very least with coaches who are only too keen to help fencers who have the gumption to ask for it.

  6. #6

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    Thanks ChrisHeaps for sharing your knowledge.

    I had been thinking how would I have written the selection procedure (18 in the policy doc). I had thought it would be along the lines of what is in the proposal but trying to remove or clarify the ambiguities. But I realise having read your response the plain english version is based on what you have written and that is what is needed.

    The selection procedure can be a multiple stage process.
    Stage 1. Using the rankings the top 11 eligible fencers will be selected. The remaining 4 places will be selected by the ADT using both the rankings and all other information they may have including performance during ADP camps.
    Stage 2. Following the publication of the selections any declined places will again be selected by the ADT using both the rankings and all other information they may have including performance during ADP camps. Stage 2 will be repeated until 15 places have been filled.
    If you feel at any stage in danger of not being selected you should contact the ADT as soon as possible whether you are part of the ADP or not.

    i.e. 21 could be wrapped into 18.

    I realise there are bounding clauses to be added but I think that is the gist of it. That gives the ADT the flexibility to make the right choices to send the best 15. It is tough but it is unambiguous. places 12-15 and any places made vacant by declines/withdrawals will be decided by the ADT.

    Side point. I liked the ADP statement in the announcement of the consultation maybe it should have put into a PDF and added to a pack of other PDF's which I assume are a board pack of some sorts. Would be a shame to lose the statement when the rest goes into policy pages.

    It is also a shame that the ADP statement did not plug joining the ADP programme. I believe officially the ADP application date has passed but I am sure late applications will be looked at generously.

    ChrisHeaps your response also answered a few questions I had on the other thread. So thanks again.

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